What Uniform Changes Would You Like To See?

[MIKE]

Let us wear warmer coats with the blues.

I think you mean... "Let us wear civilian outerwear in lieu of regulation outerwear prescribed."

[Rob Sherlin]

   For starts, 39-1 needs to be updated in a way where SMWOG will not be confused on what to wear, not only in choice of wording, but maybe pictures or illustrations showing examples of members with out grade, with grade, and officers, instead of just one example.
  As far as changes in uniforms themselves, I would actually like to see blue epaulet sleeves on the blue uniforms (the greys just don't look right to me), and maybe have the CAP embroidered on it to be different than the regular AF. I'd like to see the same for the new CSU, so the only difference would be the shirt (actually, I'd like to see everyone in the same uniforms, but for some reason, they want to have these standards that seperate everyone.....like it's the "fat person" uniform....why do they even make those uniforms in those sizes then?).
 I'd like them to keep with AF stuff, and stop using different clothing from other branches of service (Army windbreaker...allthough it's pretty cool looking) and so. forth.
  I'd actualy like to see them keep the polo's, but allow them to be worn anywhere since they are not really uniform like (I see them kind of like the T-shirts you can get with CAP and you're wing or squadron on them.....is there something that prohibits wearing them around?)
  This is just what I'd like to see and I know there's changes currently being made to certain uniforms. The main thing is, I would like 39-1 to be revised to where it's understood by all ranks, and all the older stuff removed from the web that would cause confusion.

[jimmydeanno]

Let us wear warmer coats with the blues.

I think you mean... "Let us wear civilian outerwear in lieu of regulation outerwear prescribed."

Not sure what you mean by warmer, is it even possible to increase it?

When I wear blues in the winter, I've got an undershirt, long sleeve blues shirt (possibly the cardigan), all weather-coat with liner, gloves and earmuffs.

Same with the BDUs.  In the cold, I'd wear thermal underwear, a black t-shirt, BDU blouse, gortex parka with fleece liner, gloves and a black knit watchcap.

It's pretty warm to me - and yes, it is cold here.

[0]

  As far as changes in uniforms themselves, I would actually like to see blue epaulet sleeves on the blue uniforms (the greys just don't look right to me), and maybe have the CAP embroidered on it to be different than the regular AF. I'd like to see the same for the new CSU, so the only difference would be the shirt (actually, I'd like to see everyone in the same uniforms, but for some reason, they want to have these standards that seperate everyone.....like it's the "fat person" uniform....why do they even make those uniforms in those sizes then?).

Ok, let's start with this.  It's the Air Force that would have to approve that and they want us to look similiar but also be different at a glance hence the grey epaulets.   Even with "CAP" embroidered onto them I don't see the Air Force Approving that any time soon. 

As far as the standards those are prescribed by the Air Force as the Blues, BDU's, Green Flight Suit, and Mess Dress uniforms are all Air Force uniforms.  For some of our larger members we'd have to get the uniforms specially made, since the uniforms only come in certain sizes because that's all the Air Force needs.

[lordmonar]

Okay...here's my idea.

We would wear the exact same uniform as the USAF (both the fat & fuzzies and the clean shaved and trims) with the addition of a disctinctive patch (the current overseas wing patch) on the left sholder.  The patch would go on all uniforms BDUs, ABUs, Blues, Service Coat, Lightweight Jacket (on the mess dress we use the current CAP crest).  On the Gortex Jacket I would add a blue CIVIL AIR PATROL tab that would attach to the pocket flap so we don't disrupt the water proofing.

For all other items...we would wear the same as the USAF...same shoulder marks, same name tags, same insignia.

We would have to modify our specialty badges to make them smaller then wear them in the same places and by the same rules as USAF Occupational Badges.

So...we would be distinctive in all our uniforms....(the full color patch on the shoulder of all unifroms).....but in all other thing we would confrom and match USAF rules.  IMHO this would satify everyones concerns....it looks professional, gets everyone in the same set of uniforms and make it plainly ovious to but USAF and Outside Personnel that we are infact the CAP and not the USAF.

And for future changes to our uniforms....we ditch 39-1 and get the USAF to add a chapter to the AFI that covers us.  That way, we submit out chages to the USAF unfirom board direct, and when the make a change to the USAF uniform we match them.

[afgeo4]

I think that USAF should allow (and CAP/HQ should request to allow) all USAF service and ABU uniform items for wear by CAP as long as CAP distinctive insignia is worn. I really don't understand how a USAF commander can claim that they care about their people's welfare and well-being if they don't allow CAP members, who are their people are in danger of being hurt by wearing too little weather protection.

This of course specifically goes for the extreme cold weather items, but for hot weather items as well. We know that members will wear civilian clothing when appropriate even if goes against the regulations and uniformity, so why bother restricting them? We just end up looking unprofessional. USAF has no more to lose from authorizing us to wear ABU parkas and pants than us wearing the ABUs themselves. As long as there is CAP specific identification on them. However, allowing our members to wear these items officially, creates uniformity, professional appearance, safety, and <GASP> the slight feeling that our USAF aunts and uncles at HQ/USAF actually care about us. I'd say it would be a small price to pay for the Air Force, but they aren't paying for these, we are. We're allowed to wear all USAF service and service dress outerwear, why not ABU? It'd say these options are more important in field conditions than in the office anyway.

I'd also include USAF authorized undergarments (tees, underarmour, turtlenecks).

[winterg]

See above... I'd also turn that around on you and get rid of the quasi-military uniforms for you non-conformists.  Get rid of the Aviator shirt and the CSU/TPU... De-militarize the other CAP distinctive uniforms. i.e. pre-aviator shirt CAP distinctive uniforms (blazer nametag), golf shirts with field uniform trousers etc.

I have to agree.  Demilitarize the CAP distinctive uniforms.  Go back to the blazer combo.

[winterg]

Okay...here's my idea.

We would wear the exact same uniform as the USAF (both the fat & fuzzies and the clean shaved and trims) with the addition of a disctinctive patch (the current overseas wing patch) on the left sholder.  The patch would go on all uniforms BDUs, ABUs, Blues, Service Coat, Lightweight Jacket (on the mess dress we use the current CAP crest).  On the Gortex Jacket I would add a blue CIVIL AIR PATROL tab that would attach to the pocket flap so we don't disrupt the water proofing.

For all other items...we would wear the same as the USAF...same shoulder marks, same name tags, same insignia.

We would have to modify our specialty badges to make them smaller then wear them in the same places and by the same rules as USAF Occupational Badges.

So...we would be distinctive in all our uniforms....(the full color patch on the shoulder of all unifroms).....but in all other thing we would confrom and match USAF rules.  IMHO this would satify everyones concerns....it looks professional, gets everyone in the same set of uniforms and make it plainly ovious to but USAF and Outside Personnel that we are infact the CAP and not the USAF.

And for future changes to our uniforms....we ditch 39-1 and get the USAF to add a chapter to the AFI that covers us.  That way, we submit out chages to the USAF unfirom board direct, and when the make a change to the USAF uniform we match them.

I've said almost as much several times that our uniforms should more closely match our parent organization  especially when it comes to occupational badges and such.  What I disagree with is your proposal to do away with the grooming requirements to wear.  Not only would the AF never go for this but I believe we should go the other route and make physical fitness more a part of the Senior Member program.  We need to create a "culture" of being healthy and mission ready.

[SarDragon]

Since someone asked about the tax deduction -

You need to be using a 1040 and a Schedule A to take the deduction. Keep receipts for all your expenses, and don't forget the mileage.

As a deduction, vice tax credit, you only get back a portion of what you claim as a deduction, depending on your marginal tax rate - 10, 15, 25, 28, 33, or 35%.

Is it worth it? IMHO, every little bit helps. I don't know too many members who spend less that $200/yr, and in your average 25 and 28% brackets, $50-56 will buy a decent meal at a nice restaurant.

[Pumbaa]

How about a 6 month moratorium on uniform threads?  HQ is not listening.. So give it up.

[davedove]

Is it worth it? IMHO, every little bit helps. I don't know too many members who spend less that $200/yr, and in your average 25 and 28% brackets, $50-56 will buy a decent meal at a nice restaurant.

If you don't itemize, it may not be worth it.  However if you do itemize, take all you can get.

[lordmonar]

but I believe we should go the other route and make physical fitness more a part of the Senior Member program.  We need to create a "culture" of being healthy and mission ready.

Will never happen...and should never happen.   We are mission ready as far ahs physical fitness goes (for the most part).  As much as people hate to hear this....we are a civilian organisation.  I did PT for 22 years.....I don't want to "have to" do it again.   When I can no longer hump my 24 hour pack the I'll stop being a GTM....but why make the 70 year old admin officer meet PT standards?   What would those standards be by the way?

[0]

How about a 6 month moratorium on uniform threads?  HQ is not listening.. So give it up.

It is getting a little redundent.  I believe a lot of these same points were made not too long ago.  As far as HQ not listening has anyone heard how Col White is doing with his committee on the new 39-1?  That should be tieing up a lot of what we've been arguing about through out this board and the previous 25 on uniform changes.

[D2SK]

We would wear the exact same uniform as the USAF (both the fat & fuzzies and the clean shaved and trims) with the addition of a disctinctive patch (the current overseas wing patch) on the left sholder.  The patch would go on all uniforms BDUs, ABUs, Blues, Service Coat, Lightweight Jacket (on the mess dress we use the current CAP crest).  On the Gortex Jacket I would add a blue CIVIL AIR PATROL tab that would attach to the pocket flap so we don't disrupt the water proofing.

For all other items...we would wear the same as the USAF...same shoulder marks, same name tags, same insignia.

We would have to modify our specialty badges to make them smaller then wear them in the same places and by the same rules as USAF Occupational Badges.

So...we would be distinctive in all our uniforms....(the full color patch on the shoulder of all unifroms).....but in all other thing we would confrom and match USAF rules.  IMHO this would satify everyones concerns....it looks professional, gets everyone in the same set of uniforms and make it plainly ovious to but USAF and Outside Personnel that we are infact the CAP and not the USAF.

And for future changes to our uniforms....we ditch 39-1 and get the USAF to add a chapter to the AFI that covers us.  That way, we submit out chages to the USAF unfirom board direct, and when the make a change to the USAF uniform we match them.

I'm thinking some folks should just go ahead and join the Air Force.

[JoeTomasone]

Speaking as a former cadet who put a lot of holes in the collar of his shirt, I still wear that same shirt as a senior member. There isn't a single hole remaining. And if we're worried about people wasting money, have them wear the golf shirt, that's what it's there for.

Mine were the other way 'round.   YMMV I guess.

Besides, they can always sell there SMWOG stuff on Ebay.

Sure, but my point is that they shouldn't have to.   Nor is every member comfortable with or in a position to use Ebay.   I've got cadets in my Group who don't have internet access at all.

But okay, let's say you are a physician who has a cell phone and needs to wear a pager.   Which one do you leave home when you go to the Squadron meeting?   If you go on a Ground Team, do you give up the cell phone or the VHF radio?   

Put it in your pocket/bag. I carry a cell phone with me everywhere I go. It's always in either my pocket or a bag if I'm carrying one. If you really need to carry a pager and a phone, wear the pager and put the phone in your bag.

..And if you don't carry a bag?  

Actually the rule says, and I'm paraphrasing here, an hour before and after the meeting/activity unless travel time is greater than an hour. Change into civies onve you arrive at your destination. Only essential stops when wearing the flightsuit.

Could it be clarified, sure. But not changed.

Ah, yes, you are correct there.  

[DNall]

1. SMWOG are just that. They have no grade. Similar to the Cadet Airmen Basics. What exactly do they have to "throw out?" A few sets of collar pins and some cheap CAP cloth stuff?

They shouldn't be allowed to wear the Officer style flight ap, due to the fact their not officers.

You said that you want to 'stop them from throwing a bunch of stuff away,' and then you suggest that they wear blank epaulettes, which are many times the price of CAP cutouts and cloth stuff.

SMWOG is a made up term. Their grade is SM. C/AB is also a grade. Both have no insignia.

Right now SMWOG is equiv to Airman Basic on the adult side, hence they where enlisted flight caps. It would be equally appropriate to remove the metal cutouts, use the blank "CAP" grade slides, and consider them Officer Candidates. In fact, I would do away with SM as a grade & use "OC."

The times for wearing uniforms should be eliminated. You should not be allowed to wear it to a place that makes most of its income from alcohol sales (ie bar versus restaurant), to any political event, or in any situation where perception could arise that CAP supports or endorses something when that is not the case. Those should be disciplinary matters. Other than that, you should be able to use your best judgment & be answerable to your chain of command for your behavior. If local/wing CCs want to make that more strict, then they have the ability to do that. 

And by the way... there's 30 pages of this discussion providing input to the uniform committee. If there's an idea on uniform reform, it's covered in that thread. The Cmte has their information & is working to finalize their proposals & revisions.

[Pumbaa]

And by the way... there's 30 pages of this discussion providing input to the uniform committee. If there's an idea on uniform reform, it's covered in that thread. The Cmte has their information & is working to finalize their proposals & revisions.

So this begs the question... Why is this still being discussed??

How about waiting until the cmte comes out with their revisions?  Then the discussions on uniforms can begin again ad nauseum.   Seems like a lot of wasted band width hacking away at something that is not going to change.

[DNall]

That was kind of my point.

[JayT]

No changes for the BDUs until we switch to ABUs. Let us wear warmer coats with the blues.

Or spend the cash......

There's the woolly pully, and the All Weather Coat?

How much warmer does it get then a fur lined trench coat?

[Pumbaa]

That was kind of my point.

That's what I thought DNall... Thus I needed to simplify your message for those who still elect to continue on a fruitless path of uniform change discussion.  As your eloquent prose went right over their heads...