What Uniform Changes Would You Like To See?

[JoeTomasone]

Since we've talked a little bit about how 39-1 is really overdue for a re-write, what changes would you like to see in it?   Here's my (partial?) list:

1.  SMWOG stuff:  Remove the CAP cutouts from the blue shirt (or anywhere else they are), remove the embroidered CAP cutouts from the BDUs and anywhere else; no grade insignia anywhere.   This would make the SMWOG more in line with a new airman in the USAF and eliminate having to throw everything out in 6 months when the vast majority either promote or drop out.   Allow them to wear the Officer flight cap (silver/blue) instead of the Cadet flight cap (blue only).   If having nothing on the blues would make them look too much like USAF personnel, then authorize the grey epaulet sleeve with no grade insignia.

2.  Remove the restriction that prohibits more than one of the following three items: Pager, two-way radio, cell phone.   The USAF did away with it, and it doesn't make sense to tell ground teams that they have to choose between a radio and a cell phone.  Further, the profession of many members requires them to carry a cell phone and a pager.   Add language allowing it within reason.

3.  Do away with the Golf Shirt uniform (we have enough uniforms that don't require weight/grooming standards to be met) and just make it a casual item of clothing that members can wear to show pride in the organization with the usual exceptions of those circumstances that would reflect poorly on CAP.

4.  Eliminate the confusion surrounding the wear of the uniform pre and post activity.   An hour is arbitrary; many activities take place more than an hour away from home for many members either occasionally or as a matter of course.   Replace with language requiring members to make only necessary stops and travel before and after the activity.

[Rob Sherlin]

  I think you got it! Makes sense to me! The only things I can think of are, if most members make officer grade in 6 months or so, than maybe there's no need for the chevrons either, and either add CAP to the blue epaulet sleeves worn with the white aviator shirt, or take the CAP off of the grey ones (just for some consistancy) worn with the others. Taking them off of both will probably leave a bit of overstock with the greys, but the new ones will be less time consuming to make without the lettering, and as far as the blue ones for the white aviators shirt, you can just get the regular AF epaulet sleeves which are allready made.

[Rob Sherlin]

Sorry! wasn't thinking about the diploma/GED thing required for officer ranks. If senior members don't have these, maybe the chevrons are needed (got to promote people to something sooner or later, if they don't have a diploma or GED...Where are they going to go?)

[JayT]

Since we've talked a little bit about how 39-1 is really overdue for a re-write, what changes would you like to see in it?   Here's my (partial?) list:

1.  SMWOG stuff:  Remove the CAP cutouts from the blue shirt (or anywhere else they are), remove the embroidered CAP cutouts from the BDUs and anywhere else; no grade insignia anywhere.   This would make the SMWOG more in line with a new airman in the USAF and eliminate having to throw everything out in 6 months when the vast majority either promote or drop out.   Allow them to wear the Officer flight cap (silver/blue) instead of the Cadet flight cap (blue only).   If having nothing on the blues would make them look too much like USAF personnel, then authorize the grey epaulet sleeve with no grade insignia.

2.  Remove the restriction that prohibits more than one of the following three items: Pager, two-way radio, cell phone.   The USAF did away with it, and it doesn't make sense to tell ground teams that they have to choose between a radio and a cell phone.  Further, the profession of many members requires them to carry a cell phone and a pager.   Add language allowing it within reason.

3.  Do away with the Golf Shirt uniform (we have enough uniforms that don't require weight/grooming standards to be met) and just make it a casual item of clothing that members can wear to show pride in the organization with the usual exceptions of those circumstances that would reflect poorly on CAP.

4.  Eliminate the confusion surrounding the wear of the uniform pre and post activity.   An hour is arbitrary; many activities take place more than an hour away from home for many members either occasionally or as a matter of course.   Replace with language requiring members to make only necessary stops and travel before and after the activity.

Those are all terrible ideas.

1. SMWOG are just that. They have no grade. Similar to the Cadet Airmen Basics. What exactly do they have to "throw out?" A few sets of collar pins and some cheap CAP cloth stuff?

They shouldn't be allowed to wear the Officer style flight ap, due to the fact their not officers.

You said that you want to 'stop them from throwing a bunch of stuff away,' and then you suggest that they wear blank epaulettes, which are many times the price of CAP cutouts and cloth stuff.

2. I've never had a problem with that rule, so why change it?

3. Guys, seriously, get off the Golf Shirt topic. I know it may not fit into your views of what a quasi military organization should be, but it's a perfectly acceptably, cheap uniform for some members, and indeed, is a good choice for certain situations.

4. Why do you feel the need to elimate this rule? The rule doesn't say the hour must cover travel time.........

[davidsinn]

Better images showing where to put things. Diagrams instead of pictures. Share nametags across uniforms. Remove ribbons from 39-1, only describe how they are worn not what can be worn or in what order. Clarify what types of uniform changes wing commanders can and can not make(looking at you PAWG  ) Clarify headgear(don't female Airmen in th AF wear the same caps as the males?). Give us some dang winter gear that works north of the Mason-Dixon for Pete's sake. A field jacket alone don't cut it below zero.(yeah yeah long underwear. It's still too frakkin cold for that without heavy outer gear.)

[Rob Sherlin]

You know Dave.....I never thought of that! I'm going to freeze my "you know what" off up here in the winter. None of the jackets that are authorized are going to work here in Niagara Falls with the wind and the cold! I have a leather "Shearling" that I wear with layers underneath, and that doesn't even work sometimes!

[MIKE]

... Allow them to wear the Officer flight cap (silver/blue) instead of the Cadet flight cap (blue only).   If having nothing on the blues would make them look too much like USAF personnel, then authorize the grey epaulet sleeve with no grade insignia.

Non-concur.  If they are not officers they shall not wear officer stuff.  Would much rather restrict "transitional" SM's without grade from wearing service uniform, CSU/TPU for the six months or so.  Super Airman status should be retained for those not transitioning, or those transitioning to NCO status.

Case for the golf shirt?

3.  Do away with the Golf Shirt uniform (we have enough uniforms that don't require weight/grooming standards to be met) and just make it a casual item of clothing that members can wear to show pride in the organization with the usual exceptions of those circumstances that would reflect poorly on CAP.

See above... I'd also turn that around on you and get rid of the quasi-military uniforms for you non-conformists.  Get rid of the Aviator shirt and the CSU/TPU... De-militarize the other CAP distinctive uniforms. i.e. pre-aviator shirt CAP distinctive uniforms (blazer nametag), golf shirts with field uniform trousers etc.

[Rob Sherlin]

Ok, I can see the point on the flight cap issue, so you get another flight cap when you make officer....big deal!  But I don't think I'm a non-conformist for choosing to wear the CSU. They're not my rules! I would prefer to wear the AF style uniform, but I'm not allowed to by CAP rules, not mine.

[JoeTomasone]

Those are all terrible ideas.

Thanks!   Glad you like 'em!   :clap:

1. SMWOG are just that. They have no grade. Similar to the Cadet Airmen Basics. What exactly do they have to "throw out?" A few sets of collar pins and some cheap CAP cloth stuff?

Plus they now have holes in the shirt collars where they will never again pin insignia, a flight cap they will never wear again, etc.   I don't think that changing from 2nd. Lt. to 1st. Lt. is as bad since the ONLY thing you change is epaulet sleeves and BDU collars (for most members).  But from SMWOG to 2nd. Lt. and assuming only blue shirt and BDUs, you are buying/getting rid of/re-sewing all of the above mentioned items after only 6 months for most members.   And this is on top of that recent expense to buy the uniforms in the first place.   I think that's a lot to ask, personally, of many members who may not have a lot of extra disposable income. 

They shouldn't be allowed to wear the Officer style flight ap, due to the fact their not officers.

Quite frankly, I think of SMWOG as an "Officer Candidate" rather than an Airman Basic as some here do.   If they are going to be an Officer/Flight Officer in 6 months, why split hairs?   An Airman Basic in the AF isn't going to be pinning Officer stuff on for a VERY long time, if ever -- but a SMWOG is almost 100% going to in 6 months.   I'm not suggesting that we make them officers, just that we eliminate the need to make them buy stuff that is useless in 6 months.   

Hey, I wouldn't be opposed to having them wear the Golf Shirt uniform and/or Blazer exclusively while SMWOG -- which eliminates the majority of the upfront expense while they decide if CAP is for them and learn how to wear the military-style uniform for when they promote.   Under those circumstances, I'd keep the Golf Shirt and Blazer.

You said that you want to 'stop them from throwing a bunch of stuff away,' and then you suggest that they wear blank epaulettes, which are many times the price of CAP cutouts and cloth stuff.

I'm not in favor of them wearing the "blanks" -- just offering it as a compromise since USAF might object to the only difference between a USAF Airman Basic and a CAP SMWOG being a nameplate. 

2. I've never had a problem with that rule, so why change it?

Just because you haven't had a problem with it doesn't mean that others haven't.    But okay, let's say you are a physician who has a cell phone and needs to wear a pager.   Which one do you leave home when you go to the Squadron meeting?   If you go on a Ground Team, do you give up the cell phone or the VHF radio?   

4. Why do you feel the need to elimate this rule? The rule doesn't say the hour must cover travel time.........

Precisely - it doesn't cover ANYTHING - just says that you should not wear the uniform more than an hour past the activity.   It's ambiguous and ultimately doesn't give you a clear guideline of what is acceptable and what is not.   Let's say I live next door to where the Squadron meets and my commute home is about 1.5 minutes.   Does that mean I can wear the uniform for the next 58 minutes no matter what I do when I get home?   Can I go out to the store with it?   Seems silly, right?   And yet that is what the regs currently imply is acceptable.     Now, what if I am attending an FTX 4 hours away from home -- am I required to bring civvies to change into since I won't make it home in time, or can I go with common sense and change when I get home?

Why change it?  Because it SHOULD be changed.  Not because it is giving anyone serious heartburn, just because it makes no sense and can be easily rewritten to clarify its intent.

[davidsinn]

2. I've never had a problem with that rule, so why change it?

Just because you haven't had a problem with it doesn't mean that others haven't.    But okay, let's say you are a physician who has a cell phone and needs to wear a pager.   Which one do you leave home when you go to the Squadron meeting?   If you go on a Ground Team, do you give up the cell phone or the VHF radio?   

Simple solution. Put the cell phone in a pocket. I agree though that rule is overly restrictive and should be loosened.

[jeders]

1. SMWOG are just that. They have no grade. Similar to the Cadet Airmen Basics. What exactly do they have to "throw out?" A few sets of collar pins and some cheap CAP cloth stuff?

Plus they now have holes in the shirt collars where they will never again pin insignia, a flight cap they will never wear again, etc.   I don't think that changing from 2nd. Lt. to 1st. Lt. is as bad since the ONLY thing you change is epaulet sleeves and BDU collars (for most members).  But from SMWOG to 2nd. Lt. and assuming only blue shirt and BDUs, you are buying/getting rid of/re-sewing all of the above mentioned items after only 6 months for most members.   And this is on top of that recent expense to buy the uniforms in the first place.   I think that's a lot to ask, personally, of many members who may not have a lot of extra disposable income. 

Speaking as a former cadet who put a lot of holes in the collar of his shirt, I still wear that same shirt as a senior member. There isn't a single hole remaining. And if we're worried about people wasting money, have them wear the golf shirt, that's what it's there for.

They shouldn't be allowed to wear the Officer style flight ap, due to the fact their not officers.

Quite frankly, I think of SMWOG as an "Officer Candidate" rather than an Airman Basic as some here do.   If they are going to be an Officer/Flight Officer in 6 months, why split hairs?   An Airman Basic in the AF isn't going to be pinning Officer stuff on for a VERY long time, if ever -- but a SMWOG is almost 100% going to in 6 months.   I'm not suggesting that we make them officers, just that we eliminate the need to make them buy stuff that is useless in 6 months.   

I may be wrong, though I don't think I am, don't ROTC cadets and OTs wear the regular enlisted flight cap (sans silver braid)? In which case, why should we be different. Besides, they can always sell there SMWOG stuff on Ebay.

2. I've never had a problem with that rule, so why change it?

Just because you haven't had a problem with it doesn't mean that others haven't.    But okay, let's say you are a physician who has a cell phone and needs to wear a pager.   Which one do you leave home when you go to the Squadron meeting?   If you go on a Ground Team, do you give up the cell phone or the VHF radio?   

Put it in your pocket/bag. I carry a cell phone with me everywhere I go. It's always in either my pocket or a bag if I'm carrying one. If you really need to carry a pager and a phone, wear the pager and put the phone in your bag.

4. Why do you feel the need to elimate this rule? The rule doesn't say the hour must cover travel time.........

Precisely - it doesn't cover ANYTHING - just says that you should not wear the uniform more than an hour past the activity.   It's ambiguous and ultimately doesn't give you a clear guideline of what is acceptable and what is not.   Let's say I live next door to where the Squadron meets and my commute home is about 1.5 minutes.   Does that mean I can wear the uniform for the next 58 minutes no matter what I do when I get home?   Can I go out to the store with it?   Seems silly, right?   And yet that is what the regs currently imply is acceptable.     Now, what if I am attending an FTX 4 hours away from home -- am I required to bring civvies to change into since I won't make it home in time, or can I go with common sense and change when I get home?

Why change it?  Because it SHOULD be changed.  Not because it is giving anyone serious heartburn, just because it makes no sense and can be easily rewritten to clarify its intent.

Actually the rule says, and I'm paraphrasing here, an hour before and after the meeting/activity unless travel time is greater than an hour. Change into civies onve you arrive at your destination. Only essential stops when wearing the flightsuit.

Could it be clarified, sure. But not changed.

[jeders]

Forgot to add, as far as what changes I would like to see made:

NONE. ZERO. ZILCH. NADA. Not until after we have the ABU in place. We've had enough changes over the past several years and it's time for us to leave the uniform alone and focus on the more important issues, like whether or not to put the MAJCOM shield on the door of a plane or the tail.

Our uniforms are going to change soon enough, and when they do there will be a thourough rewrite of the regs as a matter of necessity. Lets wait until after that to worry about the rest of this stuff.

[dhon27]

I may be wrong, though I don't think I am, don't ROTC cadets and OTs wear the regular enlisted flight cap (sans silver braid)? In which case, why should we be different. Besides, they can always sell there SMWOG stuff on Ebay.

WIWAC, AFROTC cadets wore officer flight caps.

Also, according to AFROTCI 36-2008, Section 4.2:
Cadets will wear the officer flight cap with diamond braid (male or female) with all combinations of the service uniform, except when wearing the semi-formal dress uniform (para 4.1.4.) or when participating in activities listed in Chapter 8 of this instruction.

[Rob Sherlin]

Just a question on uniform expenses that relates to all of this...........

 I heard that our uniforms that we purchase are suppose to be tax deductable. If that's true, how many people have taken that route ?

[MSgt Van]

I always give the bean counter my receipts for uniform purchases.

[Rob Sherlin]

Is the deduction worth it?

[Eeyore]

I found that the deduction was really only worth it when I first came back to CAP. I spent a good chunk of change to get all of the uniforms and a couple sets of BDU's and everything that goes on to all of them. I probably won't find it worth it to deduct again until we get the ABU or somehow all of my uniforms need replacing.

[jeders]

I may be wrong, though I don't think I am, don't ROTC cadets and OTs wear the regular enlisted flight cap (sans silver braid)? In which case, why should we be different. Besides, they can always sell there SMWOG stuff on Ebay.

WIWAC, AFROTC cadets wore officer flight caps.

Also, according to AFROTCI 36-2008, Section 4.2:
Cadets will wear the officer flight cap with diamond braid (male or female) with all combinations of the service uniform, except when wearing the semi-formal dress uniform (para 4.1.4.) or when participating in activities listed in Chapter 8 of this instruction.

OK. I could've sworn that I saw ROTC cadets wearing the enlisted cap in college, but I guess I was wrong.

[Rob Sherlin]

 Wow! I was just reading everything, and I see how things go in a totaly different direction (my fault too)......I believe the question was "What uniform changes would you like to see?"

[notaNCO forever]

 No changes for the BDUs until we switch to ABUs. Let us wear warmer coats with the blues.