Hawk and NBB bling clarification on NEC agenda

[NIN]

^ I see you are missing your Merritt badge for being so freaking gey. 

Yeah, I need one. I understand you're the guy who hands those out?

[mikeylikey]

The whole thing is silly.  Allow the Special Activity Patch (worn in the correct place on the uniform like 39-1 says, without idiot wing kings allowing it to replace the wing patches) and nothing else!  These people are no where special, not do they have any more special skills than average Joe blow member.  I went to Hawk when I was a Cadet, and can say, it taught me no more than what I learned in the SQD.

To even make a reference to Hawk Rangers being some special breed of CAP member is so ridiculous.  

I can't even believe this is being included in the agenda.  If I had my way, Hawk would have burned down years ago.  It only fosters and drives an elitist mentality, and that is what people here reference when wanting to wear their bling.  

[mikeylikey]

^ I see you are missing your Merritt badge for being so freaking gey. 

Yeah, I need one. I understand you're the guy who hands those out?

Takes one to know one I guess. 

Now, for $45.50 I will include all the Hawk Bling as well.  You can be a ranger by this time next week!

[NIN]

so a ranger in a streight leg infantry unit would, or would not wear his tab??

A ranger who goes to a straight-leg infantry outfit keeps his tab.

At that point, its about the skillset.  In theory, you could be in one of those places where they come and say "OK, everybody with a weapon, follow me, we need to blunt this counterattack" (I'm thinking Pusan Perimeter-style here) and some SFC or 1SG can say "OK, you three guys, you've been to Ranger school, here, take these three squads and..."

The salting of Ranger-qualified guys throughout the forces is seen as a "force multiplier." Perhaps a guy with Ranger skillz can turn an average infantry squad into a "e-lite fighting force" (bonus points for the source)  Its handy to have those skill sets, and in particular good Ranger NCO leadership, in various places in a unit.

[NIN]

Takes one to know one I guess. 

Now, for $45.50 I will include all the Hawk Bling as well.  You can be a ranger by this time next week!

Sweet!  Take a check for $50?  Does that include the sash, or do I need to make my own? That green really sets off my eyes...

[NIN]

The whole thing is silly.  Allow the Special Activity Patch (worn in the correct place on the uniform like 39-1 says, without idiot wing kings allowing it to replace the wing patches) and nothing else!  These people are no where special, not do they have any more special skills than average Joe blow member.  I went to Hawk when I was a Cadet, and can say, it taught me no more than what I learned in the SQD.

To even make a reference to Hawk Rangers being some special breed of CAP member is so ridiculous. 

I can't even believe this is being included in the agenda.  If I had my way, Hawk would have burned down years ago.  It only fosters and drives an elitist mentality, and that is what people here reference when wanting to wear their bling.   

I dunno about burning the place down. I went to Winter Hawk and it was some of the best training I've been to in CAP in YEARS.  Loved it. Didn't drink the Kool-Aid, but loved the training and the environment.

Now, I think they should have a big funeral pyre in the middle of the basecamp and everybody marches forth and lays their bling on the flames... Silly orange hats, whistles, pistol belts, ascots, tabs, whatever.  Lay that crap to rest once and for all.  Burn down the silliness, if you will.  Keep the facility and the training.

Bottom line: Keep the patch as an NCSA patch, get the NCSA ribbon.  Done.

[JohnKachenmeister]

so a ranger in a streight leg infantry unit would, or would not wear his tab??

A ranger who goes to a straight-leg infantry outfit keeps his tab.

At that point, its about the skillset.  In theory, you could be in one of those places where they come and say "OK, everybody with a weapon, follow me, we need to blunt this counterattack" (I'm thinking Pusan Perimeter-style here) and some SFC or 1SG can say "OK, you three guys, you've been to Ranger school, here, take these three squads and..."

The salting of Ranger-qualified guys throughout the forces is seen as a "force multiplier." Perhaps a guy with Ranger skillz can turn an average infantry squad into a "e-lite fighting force" (bonus points for the source)  Its handy to have those skill sets, and in particular good Ranger NCO leadership, in various places in a unit.

"Heartbreak Ridge."

Supply: "An under-appreciated field of endeavor."

[Stonewall]

turn an average infantry squad into a "e-lite fighting force" (bonus points for the source) 

Gunny vs Webster en español.

[O-Rex]

To me, it looks like the Vanguard catalog website threw up on her.

That's a keeper!

We could end all the commotion with distinctive underwear: it would be like with challenge coins-flash your waistband, and the first one with tighty-whiteys buys the beer!

[O-Rex]

turn an average infantry squad into a "e-lite fighting force" (bonus points for the source) 

Gunny vs Webster en español.

(as Gunny Highway says) "for those of you who don't habla....."

I love that movie, sarcasm and bullets flying everywhere.

don't forget: Webster pronounces it 'ee-light.'

[RiverAux]

I am particularly concerned about the "medic" tabs from Hawk Mountain being spread around.  While I don't like the others either, that one sort of gets into a tricky area as we have discussed in many medical related threads.   

[sarmed1]

2. Since only Hawk Mtn qualifies for ranger tabs and it is only offered once per year why should the tabs be authorized? They have no practical purpose outside of Hawk Mtn. Hawk grads already get the patch.

I think I addressed this in another thread (or maybe on cadet stuff), but to re-clarify.  Ranger ratings can be (and are) awarded all year long on and off the mountain.  Someone of the next higher ranger grade can sign off skills for the grades below them.  Once the testing sheet is completed it is forwarded to the stan eval officer and a rating order is published.  The only exceptions are certain expert ranger ratings (ie edible plants, firearms and rope skills require special instructors) and the rope skills of the ranger advanced rating.
I amnot sure anymore, but in years passed the squadron commander could sign off on the R/2 sheet skills even if they are not an R/1 or above.

I imagine the reason behind the NEC agenda is that there was no clarification on what was exactly included from the TP approval letter; so of course they have put in for approval for everything in the hopes that maybe at least some of it gets approved.

I personally would be happy with a modified GTM badge (like mentioned in the Hawk and ABU thread) that denotes some kind of Ranger qualification and the LL patch, every thing else can go by the way side.  Especialy the hat and the ascot.

mk

[mikeylikey]

All that is needed is the Hawk Patch.  Isn't that enough to show your experiences??  I would love for the patch to be worn in the proper place as mandated by 39-1 and the ICL's as well.  PAWG mandates that Hawk Grads wear the patch in place of the Wing Patch.  That burns my toast!  IT is a very clear violation of the regs.  

I noticed in the proposal that the patch would be worn on the breast pocket like all other Special Activity Patches.  I don't know where the PAWG Wing King gets off telling people to violate the rules.  When this does pass, I hope the patch is only worn like it is supposed to be worn.  

Here is my reasoning (if anyone is interested).  Going to HAWK is fine.  IT can be a challenging activity for a 14 year old Cadet.  Eating Rabbits and walking around a bird sanctuary until your blisters have blisters is a growing experience for someone that young I guess.  However, what do patches, whistles and ascots do for the graduate?  NOTHING.  All these items are designed to make sure the "average CAP Member" knows that the wearer did something different.  It adds nothing to the abilities of the wearer.  It creates division, and contempt between people that should be working on the same team.  I would say it even goes as far as creating an elitist mentality.  The whole "I went I am a Ranger, I know what I am doing" mindset is formed.  IT is very apparent based on Katrina AAR and personal conversations between myself and those rangers that went, that Hawk Rangers are no more capable than another member to perform ES operations.  Nothing taught at HAWK was usefull in Katrina.  I say this because the PAWG Rangers were specifically called out for doing things wrong and doing things their own way.  They could not even follow the orders of those who were in charge.  

I went to HAWK as a Cadet, I went to HAWK as a Senior Member, and can say that what most CAP members do in ES is not what is presented at HAWK.  Many will call BS on that.  All I can say is that it is only recently that Ranger Grades have been equated with ES ops.  

If this passes, I want those that attended army Ranger School or AF or Navy or Marine courses to be able to wear a CAP Ranger grade congruent with their attendance at the military school they went to.  If we are going to say you have to be able to do so many pushups, a run and regurgitate info to be a Ranger Second Class, I strongly believe those that went to a military special forces or operations school to be just as well qualified for at least R-2.  

Finally, and those of you that are of the Air Force variety correct me if I am way off target, but does the Air Force allow the Army Ranger School tab to be worn on the AF uniform?  I don't think they do.  So, there really are no Air Force Rangers, right?!?!

We need to begin eliminating uniform bling and patches, not add to it.  

I know I am going to get ranger bashed by all you HAWK supporters, but this is truly how I feel.  Those that are in support of adding useless bling to the Uniform because someone spent 1.5 weeks sleeping in a tent, needs to get over themselves.  Why must we create even more division in the membership?  So much already exists.  

Remember, we are supposed to be fostering a one CAP Mentality here.  We are trying to move away from the old belief system that I am from one Wing, you are from another and because of that I am better.  Now we will have the "I went to HAWK, I am better" mentality instead.  Why?  Because we are now offering more bling on a national level, and attendees will most likely go specifically to attain that bling, not advance their education.  If HAWK is supposedly a great place to learn ES skills, why doesn't NHQ take it over and place its ops personnel in lead.  Why has NHQ  not created a training plan or outline for HAWK?  

Wow.....one of my longest rants in a while.  Sorry!  

[ZigZag911]

Am I correct that the US Army has two classes of Ranger?

a) Rangers
b) everybody else

Assuming there is a legitimate need for Pennsy Rangers,
why on earth do they need a hierarchy more intricate and
arcane than most secret societies?!?

[AlphaSigOU]

turn an average infantry squad into a "e-lite fighting force" (bonus points for the source) 

Gunny vs Webster en español.

Actually, it's in Italian. (Pays to be fluent in Spanish - it's not too difficult to understand Italian, French and Portuguese... if they're not talkin' a mile a minute!)

[Stonewall]

Finally, and those of you that are of the Air Force variety correct me if I am way off target, but does the Air Force allow the Army Ranger School tab to be worn on the AF uniform?  I don't think they do.  So, there really are no Air Force Rangers, right?!?!

You are correct, the AF does not allow the wear of SF and Ranger tabs on the AF BDU/ABUs.  That said, the AF Lt Col Pararescue Officer that pinned on my jump wings wore both as he had been SF/Ranger prior to joining the AF.  Also, when I was at a PJ squadron, you'd often see a PJ or two sportin' a Ranger tab.  Generally, though, no one says anything because a) most people respect PJs enough to look the other way, b) most AF types don't know the regs enough to know whether or not it is wrong, and c) you could wear a Hawk Mountain Ranger tab and no one would really notice.  When I first joined the Air Guard I wore my Air Assault badge, which I found out later, was not allowed.  I even had it blue on OD (AF style) to match my jump wings.  Not a single person noticed or cared to say something, not even at the active duty tech school.

Short answer, the only tab worn in the AF these days isn't really a tab, but an arch or scroll, and that's the SERE SPECIALIST scroll:



And again, like their pewter green beret, once they leave the SERE career field, the lose the scroll and beret.

[mikeylikey]

Actually, it's in Italian. (Pays to be fluent in Spanish - it's not too difficult to understand Italian, French and Portuguese... if they're not talkin' a mile a minute!)

I Love Italian, Spanish, French and Portuguese..............food! 

Spain and Spanish food (read, not Latino or Mexican) is delicious.  Everyone should have a chance to visit Spain.  Plus I love countires were they have so much more relaxed work ethics than the US.  We all work so hard for so little in this country.  We should enjoy life and pursue happiness like our Founding Fathers wanted us to. 

Where was I going with this.....sorry! 

Say NO to More HAWK and NBB  bling!   :clap:

[Stonewall]

Perhaps, and this is a BIG "perhaps", if CAP had a specific squadron that only did SAR and had some sort of technical skill and qualification to OFFICIALLY offer as a service to the AF, HLS, State, or local area, then, I may support some sort of special garb, beret or whatever, to identify them as an "EEEE-LIGHT" group.  But of course, once you leave that special unit, you lose any identifying patch, hat or whatever.

[mikeylikey]

^ I would agree with you!  I took the following quote from the AF article your referenced above.....

""The beret is a motivational factor for SERE Specialists candidates in training and will aid in recruiting, retention and espirit-de-corps," ~Chief Ploof.

So it seems to me that the beret has a use for them.  Unlike HAWK and NBB, they need no advertising, and their bling only goes to drive divisions between those that went and everyone else. 

[Stonewall]

You know, something else, it's not like PJs, SERE Specialists, Rangers, TACPs, CCT, Paratroopers, Special Forces or God forbid, even Security Forces, wear their berets in the field.  In fact, on Hunter Army Airfield lately, I rarely see any berets; mostly ACU caps are worn.  Why?  Because berets suck.

If I'm not mistaken, I've seen lots of Hawk Rangers and NBB folks wearing their garb, whatever it may be, in the field.