New Uniforms, use Boy Scouts style

[SARPilotNY]

Its really hard to carry that orange airplane with you after you crash.  When I fly for CAP or fly for myself or another agency I carry a 406 beacon, a sat phone, the phone numbers for all the state police agencies so if I do crash and survive, I can increase the chance of making the golden hour for trauma or the golden 24 hours for aircraft accident victims.  (plus GPS w/mapping software )  I know if I crash anytime in the late morning and beyond and expect CAP to find me that day is a joke.  I know better...lets see,  I crash after taking off after sunrise at 8 am in the winter,  day time temp 40 degrees, night time 10 degrees.  I file a flight plan for a 4 .5 hour flight.  I crash at 9am.  My 121.5 old fashioned ELT goes  off, I am just a mile from a town with an airport.  First SARSAT pass goes over at 9:45, second at 11:15 and the AFRCC goes to mission.  They call around looking for our alerting officer, the message goes to voice mail since he is in a meeting.  Meeting is over at noon...but it is lunch time.  He makes a few calls (like ten) and cannot find any IC because they all are at work or won't take the mission.   More hits, positive airborne, even the FBO can hear the ELT.  Now the FAA is making phone calls to my family because I failed to close my flight plan.   It's one in the afternoon, just 3 more hours of daylight. By 2 o'clock the ALNOT is received by the AFRCC.  They have an IC but he can't get off work till 4 pm, the mission must wait.  Does he give it over to the sheriff???  NO!  4pm the IC leaves work and gets home by 4:30.  It is now dark, too late for an aircraft.  He tries to find a ground team but the closest one is over 100 miles away, about a 2 hour drive once the get grouped up.  That will take two hours also.  Now it is over 12 hours after I crash, the temp. is 10 degrees,  the plane is split in two, I am somewhat OK, my passenger is in need of medical help, fx femur, open wrist fracture, facial cuts and internal injuries.  She will never make it through the night!  My only choice is to walk for help but I am wearing my green flightsuit.  A local pilot hears the ELT and flies over me but cannot see me, only if I carried my orange airplane with me.  This may sound like fiction, but this is how CAP seems to respond.  See why I carry that stuff.  I know if I wait, I Will be dead!

[Eclipse]

I am tired of seeing a dozen different uniforms...that defeats the term uniform.

Close your eyes, or encourage people locally to wear the same outfit. If you are not interested in either SUAC.

Ever been on a UDF team and have people think you are the police...

Yes, and while I will correct anyone who asks, and identify myself properly when required, any assumptions like that are not my problem, and likely help the operation.

...or tried to find a ground team in the field in BDUs?

No problem, since all GTM's are required to wear bright orange vests, finding them in the woods is usually pretty simple.

The AF really doesn't want us to look like them,

Please cite a quotation from any credible source (who has authority in the matter) who has said that publicly.

Most of our members are overweight, hair is too long etc. and frankly we act un professional and do not respect the core values of our military.

Please post the statistics you used to make this assertion.  Also, if we are all a bunch of fat, unprofessional, hippies, perhaps its time to look elsewhere to spend your free time.  I would hate to get our stink on you.

If we responded to war the same way we respond to missions, today (July 4th) would just be another work day for us under the Queen.

I would suggest you log off here and spend some time at the library with books about the Revolutionary war.  A large number of our troops were untrained, unkempt, volunteers with little training, and no special uniform.  We seem to have done fairly well.


Frankly, from someone with 30+ years in, this is a pretty random, silly post.  One only needs to look to the US Navy for more uniform combinations then we have, and they seem to be doing pretty well.

[SARPilotNY]

I am tired of seeing a dozen different uniforms...that defeats the term uniform.

Close your eyes, or encourage people locally to wear the same outfit. If you are not interested in either SUAC.

Ever been on a UDF team and have people think you are the police...

Yes, and while I will correct anyone who asks, and identify myself properly when required, any assumptions like that are not my problem, and likely help the operation.  Hope they don't shoot first and ask questions later.

...or tried to find a ground team in the field in BDUs?

No problem, since all GTM's are required to wear bright orange vests, finding them in the woods is usually pretty simple.
Not in the fall with al the amber color, more is better, a vest will not cut it!

The AF really doesn't want us to look like them,

Please cite a quotation from any credible source (who has authority in the matter) who has said that publicly.  Actions speak volumes, why do we have "distinctive" devices, so the real knows we are not the real.  The USAF is the source.

Most of our members are overweight, hair is too long etc. and frankly we act un professional and do not respect the core values of our military.

Please post the statistics you used to make this assertion.  Also, if we are all a bunch of fat, unprofessional, hippies, perhaps its time to look elsewhere to spend your free time.  I would hate to get our stink on you.
Again, look at any SAREX, wing conference ect.  You can't spot them?

If we responded to war the same way we respond to missions, today (July 4th) would just be another work day for us under the Queen.

I would suggest you log off here and spend some time at the library with books about the Revolutionary war. 

A large number of our troops were untrained, unkempt, volunteers with little training, and no special uniform.  We seem to have done fairly well.  And yes, they fought hard with little pay, or rations,  poor training, uniforms and so on.  And they did this in the freezing cold, at night and died for what would be their county.  Our folks today would not get off their butts at night in the cold if the were to lose any sleep  (not all but most)


Frankly, from someone with 30+ years in, this is a pretty random, silly post.  One only needs to look to the US Navy for more uniform combinations then we have, and they seem to be doing pretty well.

Why are so many offended by trying to be more visable and maybe safer?  Ever looked for a needle in a haystack?  Have you ever found a survivor and asked them what color they wished they were wearing?

Tags - MIKE

[RogueLeader]

^^ so what are you trying to say?

[SARPilotNY]

You should read the whole thread???     I say lets get back to the basics, if we want to be Air Force, grooming and weight are going to cause a loss of membership...that would put us back to the days of the 80's and prior. 
Have just the AF style uniforms, not all these others to please and meet their needs.  I really thinks an orange flight suit and orange shirt in the field makes sense, the flightsuit was authorized in the past.  But I would give that up if we were truly uniform.  Second, act like the military, take orders and follow them, make sacrifices so others may live.  Too many people are in it for the rank or ribbons.  At one time we didn't get maintenance money for aircraft that we flew, we did for the love of flying and helping others.  Our core values were better than, now we just sit around (like now) and whine!

[ColonelJack]

I say lets get back to the basics, if we want to be Air Force, grooming and weight are going to cause a loss of membership...that would put us back to the days of the 80's and prior.

You're joking, right?  "If we want to be Air Force," as you say, we need to hie ourselves posthaste to our nearest Air Force recruiter and sign on Uncle Sam's dotted line.  Do six weeks at Lackland AFB and you'll be all the Air Force you can handle.  And it's patently silly to suggest it's acceptable to lose a large chunk of your membership at a time when we're already hemorrhaging members.  I joined CAP in 1981 and was somewhat overweight then; by the standards you seem to endorse I'd never have been able to join.

Have just the AF style uniforms, not all these others to please and meet their needs.

Once again, if you want to have a kit of nothing but AF uniforms, I can provide you with the toll-free number whereby you can find your nearest Air Force recruiter.  Who are you to say these other uniforms -- mandated because members don't meet AF grooming requirements -- are just to please and meet their needs?  CAP regulations require uniforms and they don't -- and please God never will -- keep otherwise qualified personnel out of the organization simply because they wouldn't be acceptable for AF active duty.

I really thinks an orange flight suit and orange shirt in the field makes sense, the flightsuit was authorized in the past.  But I would give that up if we were truly uniform.

You're losing me here.  While I will not disagree that there are a large number of uniform combinations, they are all uniforms.  Now, if you're looking for a uniform appearance at one point or another, that should be the prerogative of the local commander -- let him/her say what the uniform of the day should be, but be mindful that a particular uniform cannot be required unless provided to the member.  I somewhat see where you're going; I just think you ought to be in the Air Force if you're looking for that much uniformity.

Second, act like the military, take orders and follow them, make sacrifices so others may live.  Too many people are in it for the rank or ribbons.  At one time we didn't get maintenance money for aircraft that we flew, we did for the love of flying and helping others.  Our core values were better than, now we just sit around (like now) and whine!

Why just act like the military?  Let's all go to the AF recruiter and be the military!  Then we have no choice but to take orders and follow them!  Good grief, man ... you've been in CAP 30 years, you know better than this nonsense!!!  As I said to someone else, altruism is a great thing -- but some people have more of it than others.  Some people actually do want to get paid for their work, whatever form the payment may take.  In CAP, payday is rank and ribbons.  That, sir, is a fact that you may not like, but it's there.  Would you have these people drummed out of CAP simply because they aren't satisfied with the feel-good-fuzzies one gets for doing things for others?  Sheesh.

And we didn't get maintenance money for our aircraft once upon a time ... but maintenance then was only $12 - $14 an hour, too.  It simply costs too much to fly for someone else out of one's own pocket.  Simple economics.

Jack

[LtCol White]

For someone who claims to have as much experience as he does, there doesn't seem to be much knowlege of CAP at all. SARpilotNY, perhaps you should go play in someone else's backyard and leave the real work to those of us who are dedicated and educated as to who and what CAP really is. You have a lot of homework to do before you can be a productive member.

[RogueLeader]

With out proper punctuation, it reads to me like: Cap member, 30+ years SAR Pilot, GTM,Mission Support.  as if he's new to CAP, but has flown SAR in another Agency for 30+ etc.

[SARPilotNY]

and tell me...what do you want to know?  Are you saying all of our members meet grooming and weight standards?  That we are part of the Air Force and not a corporation?   Why do we need an Air Force uniform?  We have non military polo shirts, blazers, aviator shirts and so on.  Why do we need the Air Force style uniform?  Please inform me!

[SARPilotNY]

With out proper punctuation, it reads to me like: Cap member, 30+ years SAR Pilot, GTM,Mission Support.  as if he's new to CAP, but has flown SAR in another Agency for 30+ etc.

Just to make it clear...
30+ years CAP
Hold almost all ICS ratings in CAP
I am "carded" for ICS with US Forest Service
Flown SAR for most of those years.
Flown for other Federal, state and local agencies.
"carded" for other governmental agencies.
Seen CAP from the customer side as well as the inside.
Worked for (as in paid0 FD LE EMS as well.
member of a national type one ICS team.
Found a few planes, survivors and elts over the years (bet more that most of you)
Watched the ground go buy from 15 knots at 30 feet and 2oo knots at 1,000 feet on SAR so I think I know what orange vs. green looks like.
Anything else you would like to know?

[LtCol White]

With out proper punctuation, it reads to me like: Cap member, 30+ years SAR Pilot, GTM,Mission Support.  as if he's new to CAP, but has flown SAR in another Agency for 30+ etc.

Just to make it clear...
30+ years CAP
Hold almost all ICS ratings in CAP
I am "carded" for ICS with US Forest Service
Flown SAR for most of those years.
Flown for other Federal, state and local agencies.
"carded" for other governmental agencies.
Seen CAP from the customer side as well as the inside.
Worked for (as in paid0 FD LE EMS as well.
member of a national type one ICS team.
Found a few planes, survivors and elts over the years (bet more that most of you)
Watched the ground go buy from 15 knots at 30 feet and 2oo knots at 1,000 feet on SAR so I think I know what orange vs. green looks like.
Anything else you would like to know?

Yes, with so much experience, how do you have so little knowlege?

[SARPilotNY]

And just what little knowledge are you talking about (again)?

[ColonelJack]

and tell me...what do you want to know?

Friday night's winning lottery numbers would be nice.

 Are you saying all of our members meet grooming and weight standards?

No.  And I'm also saying that our members don't have to.  It's not a requirement of membership.  Nor should it be.

 That we are part of the Air Force and not a corporation?

We're both and always have been.  Maybe the "corporation" part is being emphasized more now than the "Air Force" part, but ever since its founding as part of the Army Air Corps in 1941, CAP has also been a private, benevolent, non-profit corporation.  Saying we should be one or the other is pointless, because we aren't.  We're both.

  Why do we need an Air Force uniform?  We have non military polo shirts, blazers, aviator shirts and so on.  Why do we need the Air Force style uniform?  Please inform me!

Because the Air Force says so.  It also says who can wear such uniforms.  We have the non-military polo shirts, etc., for those members who don't qualify for the AF uniform.

Really, all of this is obvious, and I don't understand why someone with 30 and more years as a member of CAP would even be asking these questions.

Jack

[RogueLeader]

You seem to think that we are just CAP OR USAF AUX.  We are both.  You seem to think that the entire Corp. is either fat/fuzzy or Fit for AF AD, I'm not sure, your posts are not coherent on your beliefs.  Why don't you look at more of the threads here on CapTalk so you know what we have talked about, before you go spouting off that we don't know what we are talking about.  You seem to have the attitude that ONLY you have all the answers, and we- regardless of rank- know nothing.  I take offense at that.  While I openly admit that there is still tons that I don't know about, I don't disparage others when I'm right.

[SARPilotNY]

I guess I was wrong when before the smurf suits, we only had Air Force uniforms and were required to meet (but seemingly not enforced) weight and grooming standards.  My real job still requires us to maintain short hair, weight and fitness standards.  If not...say bye bye.  I hate it when somebody from another agency comes in with a beard, overweight and long hear and wants to be one of "us".  Most of our guys will walk away and he gets the message...most of the time.  Peer pressure?  If you look professional, dress professional... even a rookie is thought to be at veteran.  We have yielded our founding values to accommodate a small minority of our membership.  Why did we find it necessary to lower our standards.  Again 30 years...I do remember they way things were and again...other that those lotto numbers, what am I missing or should I lower my (our) standards?

[ColonelJack]

I guess I was wrong when before the smurf suits, we only had Air Force uniforms and were required to meet (but seemingly not enforced) weight and grooming standards.  My real job still requires us to maintain short hair, weight and fitness standards.  If not...say bye bye.  I hate it when somebody from another agency comes in with a beard, overweight and long hear and wants to be one of "us".  Most of our guys will walk away and he gets the message...most of the time.  Peer pressure?  If you look professional, dress professional... even a rookie is thought to be at veteran.  We have yielded our founding values to accommodate a small minority of our membership.  Why did we find it necessary to lower our standards.  Again 30 years...I do remember they way things were and again...other that those lotto numbers, what am I missing or should I lower my (our) standards?

I have a copy of the CAP uniform manual (39-1) dated 1975.  Nowhere in that publication does it make mention of weight/height standards.  All that is required is maintaining a professional appearance when in uniform.  I suppose that means that if you can find a uniform big enough to fit you, you can wear it.  (As for grooming, that is covered in great detail.)  Prior to 1983's rewrite of 39-1, we were not required to meet weight standards.  I had a Smurf suit, too, and when my tummy didn't look right in AF blues, I wore it.

My real job (one of them, anyway) would turn away someone who looks fat, hairy, and sloppy, too.  But I'm somewhat overweight and am very successful at that job.  (I'm a television news anchorman, as well as being a middle-school history teacher.) 

I disagree that a "small minority" of membership doesn't meet AF standards, but I have no data to back up my assertion.  (I'd be interested in any data you have that supports that assertion, by the way.) 

But your use of the phrase "lower our standards" puzzles me.  Is it more important that a member -- or potential member -- bring necessary skills to the table, or is it more important that they look like an AF recruiting poster, even if they're dumber than a doorknob?  If the member is overweight ... or has a neatly trimmed beard ... or longer-than-we-might-like hair ... but has magnificent skills needed in CAP, do we turn that person away because they don't look like an airman?  If we turn such a member away, we've done far worse than lower some arbitrary standard of what they should look like.

The Air Force (and the other branches of the military) have their standards which include what a person looks like.  We don't.  And I maintain that we shouldn't.  Our missions are too necessary -- and are being conducted by far too few people -- for us to be turning anyone away, even if they need their corporate uniforms made by Omar the Tentmaker.

Jack

[SARPilotNY]

You seem to think that we are just CAP OR USAF AUX.  We are both.  You seem to think that the entire Corp. is either fat/fuzzy or Fit for AF AD, I'm not sure, your posts are not coherent on your beliefs.  Why don't you look at more of the threads here on CapTalk so you know what we have talked about, before you go spouting off that we don't know what we are talking about.  You seem to have the attitude that ONLY you have all the answers, and we- regardless of rank- know nothing.  I take offense at that.  While I openly admit that there is still tons that I don't know about, I don't disparage others when I'm right.

Well if we are the AF Aux, we should act like it.  The topic was to change uniforms, how this evolved into all this other stuff is interesting.  Most say we MUST have the Air Force uniform...fine wear it and wear it right.  But most seem  to think an orange shirt or orange flight suit is awful.  Why?  I have alway said take the red lights off the fire engine and ambulance and we would lose over half of our rescuers...good, there in it for the wrong reason.  Take the guns from the reserves and ditto.  Take the Air Force uniform away from CAP and we would lose thousands of members too.  I don't think the volunteer fire departments give ribbons everytime an engine company finds a false fire alarm...but we do.  The real issue with this topic is to have pride in wearing the Air Force uniform in a way the Air Force members would be proud.  Wear it right or not at all.  Does the Air Force have an optional uniform to wear if you wear a beard or ponytale (for you guys)  No!  And at one point we didn't, but caved in when numerous complaints came in from AF bases about our members in AF uniforms.  I guess CAP's goal is to please everyone, just like my child's soccer team, everyone is a winner!  Wow...that will help getting her through life when she doesn't get that pay raise or job.  How much lower will our standards go and to what level?  In SAR, how many more lives will be lost because we put our members feelings first before the operational needs of the mission or victims?
This is just like FDNY...their members refused to wear breathing apparatus, nomex pants and gloves for years after they became a National standard...how many firefighter's lost their lives or lungs or skin because the City didn't want to piss off the firefighter's union.  That was smart!
Our leaders need to set the RIGHT example.  I have seen commanders overweight with a beard...now I think that sends the wrong message to his folks, but it seems most will disagree with me.

[ColonelJack]

How does one discuss things with someone who firmly believes they are right and will not even listen to other points of view?

Jack

[ColonelJack]

[The real issue with this topic is to have pride in wearing the Air Force uniform in a way the Air Force members would be proud.  Wear it right or not at all.  Does the Air Force have an optional uniform to wear if you wear a beard or ponytale (for you guys)  No!  And at one point we didn't, but caved in when numerous complaints came in from AF bases about our members in AF uniforms.  

Okay, one more time.  We are not the Air Force.  We are the Air Force Auxiliary.  We do not have to meet Air Force standards (well, we do if we want to wear their uniform, but that's optional.)  The Air Force doesn't have to have optional uniforms.  If you don't meet their standards, they send you home.  We are less geared toward what the individual looks like, and more toward what he/she offers.

I can't believe that after 30 years in CAP you think a person's appearance trumps their abilities.  That makes no sense at all.

Jack

[SARPilotNY]

I guess I was wrong when before the smurf suits, we only had Air Force uniforms and were required to meet (but seemingly not enforced) weight and grooming standards.  My real job still requires us to maintain short hair, weight and fitness standards.  If not...say bye bye.  I hate it when somebody from another agency comes in with a beard, overweight and long hear and wants to be one of "us".  Most of our guys will walk away and he gets the message...most of the time.  Peer pressure?  If you look professional, dress professional... even a rookie is thought to be at veteran.  We have yielded our founding values to accommodate a small minority of our membership.  Why did we find it necessary to lower our standards.  Again 30 years...I do remember they way things were and again...other that those lotto numbers, what am I missing or should I lower my (our) standards?

I have a copy of the CAP uniform manual (39-1) dated 1975.  Nowhere in that publication does it make mention of weight/height standards.  All that is required is maintaining a professional appearance when in uniform.  I suppose that means that if you can find a uniform big enough to fit you, you can wear it.  (As for grooming, that is covered in great detail.)  Prior to 1983's rewrite of 39-1, we were not required to meet weight standards.  I had a Smurf suit, too, and when my tummy didn't look right in AF blues, I wore it.

My real job (one of them, anyway) would turn away someone who looks fat, hairy, and sloppy, too.  But I'm somewhat overweight and am very successful at that job.  (I'm a television news anchorman, as well as being a middle-school history teacher.) 

I disagree that a "small minority" of membership doesn't meet AF standards, but I have no data to back up my assertion.  (I'd be interested in any data you have that supports that assertion, by the way.) 

But your use of the phrase "lower our standards" puzzles me.  Is it more important that a member -- or potential member -- bring necessary skills to the table, or is it more important that they look like an AF recruiting poster, even if they're dumber than a doorknob?  If the member is overweight ... or has a neatly trimmed beard ... or longer-than-we-might-like hair ... but has magnificent skills needed in CAP, do we turn that person away because they don't look like an airman?  If we turn such a member away, we've done far worse than lower some arbitrary standard of what they should look like.

The Air Force (and the other branches of the military) have their standards which include what a person looks like.  We don't.  And I maintain that we shouldn't.  Our missions are too necessary -- and are being conducted by far too few people -- for us to be turning anyone away, even if they need their corporate uniforms made by Omar the Tentmaker.

Jack

Sorry...I joined before 1975 and I think they didn't make uniforms that were 3XXXl or 54 inch pants and flightsuits in size 60.  I know we didn't have huge people and that was in a time when military was disliked, and so was Nixon and short hair meant only one thing...you worked for the government.
Our agency has 1,000 applicants for ever position, requires a college degree, requires prior experience or a 1400 hour academy and we are not the highest paid employer. Than there is the background, zero drug use policy, fitness test, medical and so on.  Our oldest recruits have been in their fifties. Even during the dot.com era we had hundreds per position.  What drives people to our professions in not pay, the number one reason is job satisfaction!  Pay I think was #7 on the list. As I recall the other top ones were job security, heathcare, retirement, job locations, family leave, work week hours...If I didn't say it, somebody would ask.  My point is QUALITY, not QUANITY!  As an IC,  I can run a large scale mission with just a few really good people and a computer (for CAP).  For real world a Crown Vic or Suburban with a/c will do.  An out of shape, overweight, ailing person is a liability, not an asset in the field, in the air or at a base.  No, we don't need everyone.  Not even volunteer fire departments take everyone, nor should they.  Maybe an explorer post or "Senior" type program with non sworn type status would be a compromise.  No rank, distinctive uniform with limited public exposure.