Beards?

[Dragoon]

This isn't gonna win me many friends, but - why allow beards in CAP?

I fully get the weight issues - our members are often older than USAF folks, plus the general U.S. population is a little thick around the middle, and weight is hard to lose.  If we demanded skinny seniors, we'd have a very small Civil Air Patrol.

But losing a beard takes 15 minutes with a razor.  No big deal.

I understand people like their beards.  And others like their body piecings, and others like their green hair.  It's individual expression.

But would it kill us to enforce USAF grooming standards across the board?

(please note, even in USAF there are some waivers for medical/religious stuff.  But I'm talking about the vast majority of fuzzies who wear a beard because, well, they think it looks good.)

I had one for a few years while in grad school, and only wore the blazer.  Thought that beard made me kinda distinguished looking.  Chicks dug it.    But if the rule had been "smooth faced or quit," I'd have shaved in a heartbeat.

If we have ties to the uniformed USAF, why not emulate them as close as we practically can?

[Major Carrales]

Hummmm....interesting.

While I do not wear a beard, I have nothing to lose.  But I know we have many here that re-enact the War between the States and, I should say, that they are good at it. 

To lobby for these people, I guess the best reply would be...the USAF gets paid and CAP does not.  Therefore, for most CAP Officers, CAP is a lifestyle...not a livelihood.

I choose "not to wear a beard" specifically for CAP, but to each their own.

[RogueLeader]

I do not mind shaving, it's just that I tend to be lazy about it when I don't need to be clean shaved.  I also think that if beards are allowed, they need to be well groomed.  Being allowed a beard in Corporates is one thing, but make them look nice.  Not saying near to the face, but not looking like Z Z Top.

[Hawk200]

The military has equipment that requires a clean shaven face (which mustaches don't affect). I can't think of anything that CAP has requiring one to shave. There is no need in CAP for a person to not have a beard.

Which is a reason I don't see why the corporate service dress restricts it.

[Eclipse]

A line has to be drawn between the need for a professional appearance and the need to recruit people
who have long hair, beards, etc.

The line was drawn at allowing them in most of the distinctive uniforms.

I don't see why anyone should care.  Its a personal choice and allowed by the program.  Roll on.

[davedove]

I'll turn the question around, Why should we have to be clean shaven?  There is no practical reason, unlike the military which has the requirement because of the protective masks.

[RogueLeader]

I'll turn the question around, Why should we have to be clean shaven?  There is no practical reason, unlike the military which has the requirement because of the protective masks.

Sure there is, it has a distinctively professional look.  Look at most companies around the country, most have policies that state clean shaven- including mustaches. Most of the companies that do not mandate clean shaved also have very tight rules on beards and goatees.  It's all about the image.

[davedove]

I'll turn the question around, Why should we have to be clean shaven?  There is no practical reason, unlike the military which has the requirement because of the protective masks.

Sure there is, it has a distinctively professional look.  Look at most companies around the country, most have policies that state clean shaven- including mustaches. Most of the companies that do not mandate clean shaved also have very tight rules on beards and goatees.  It's all about the image.

That's a very subjective reason though.  I work for DoD, which has no restriction on facial hair.  Many do not wear beards, but that is more current societal fashion than anything.  Are those of us who have beards any less professional?

I'm not completely discounting appearance.  I do keep mine closely trimmed.  I just have a hard time considering it a "deal breaker" without some objective reason, like the aforementioned protective masks.

I also find it ironic that a 450 lb. member who can barely walk across the room without collapsing, but happens to be clean shaven, can wear the Corporate uniform, but a lean and mean gent who happens to have a well trimmed beard cannot.  (Note, this isn't me, I haven't been lean and mean for a while )

[dwb]

CAP is... say it with me... "not the military"

CAP's close ties to its parent service are a big selling point for many people, as is wearing the military-style uniform.  For those that want to contribute to the organization, but don't want to wear a military uniform, there are suitable alternatives.

Why change that?

CAP is more than just a bunch of people running around trying to be in the USAF.  There are professional educators, pilots, youth mentors, aviation enthusiasts, radio geeks, etc.  Why force all those people to bend to the culture you arbitrarily think should be applied across the organization?

[Dragoon]

Here's why I asked the question

I believe we are hurt by a schizophrenic culture.  We don't agree on what CAP is (USAF? Corporate?), how it operates (autocratic? democratic?) or any one of a million other things.

Most successful organizations I know of have a single culture, which helps foster a single vision.  One of the most visible signs of this culture is the dress code.

A uniform dress code can bind a team together.  Coaches know it, school principals know it, generals know it. 

I think some of us believing we are kind of like the National Guard while others believing we are closer to Red Cross or Boy Scout volunteers is not good for us.

We'd be better off deciding what we are, and what we're not.

So...if we're gonna ape USAF officer titles and structure, would it not make sense to ape their appearance, within reason.

After all, losing weight can take years.  You can knock off a beard in 15 minutes.  From an effort standpoint, these things simple aren't equal.


Now, there is another way to go.  Allow beards, green hair, whatever floats our collective boat, and jettison the USAF suits.  Wear blazers.  Proclaim our civilian-ness.

I'm fine either way - both have advantages.

But being kinda half and half is at best confusing, and at worst divisive.

[ZigZag911]

Which is a reason I don't see why the corporate service dress restricts it.

Probably because the TPU bears sufficient resemblance to USAF dress uniform to confuse the general public.

[ZigZag911]

  It's all about the image.

Which is a major problem in modern society -- we put far more emphasis on image than substance -- to our great detriment!!!

[RogueLeader]

  It's all about the image.

Which is a major problem in modern society -- we put far more emphasis on image than substance -- to our great detriment!!!

First impressions are the lasting ones.

[Al Sayre]

There are other reasons to wear a beard that you all are forgetting, one is religious; there are some religions that prohibit men from shaving and even cutting their hair.  Another may be cosmetic, some people may have scars from acne, auto accidents etc that are covered up by a neatly trimmed beard.  Also there may be medical reasons.  Many black males and others with tight curly facial hair have problems with painful ingrown hairs that become infected.  This problem is exacerbated by shaving, this was the most common reason for "no shave" chits when I was in the Navy.

[RogueLeader]

There are other reasons to wear a beard that you all are forgetting, one is religious; there are some religions that prohibit men from shaving and even cutting their hair.  Another may be cosmetic, some people may have scars from acne, auto accidents etc that are covered up by a neatly trimmed beard.  Also there may be medical reasons.  Many black males and others with tight curly facial hair have problems with painful ingrown hairs that become infected.  This problem is exacerbated by shaving, this was the most common reason for "no shave" chits when I was in the Navy.

I think that those reasons are fine, just make an amendment that allows those people have a waiver on  shaving.  All else, clean shaved.

[Pylon]

I think that those reasons are fine, just make an amendment that allows those people have a waiver on  shaving.  All else, clean shaved.

Who's going to issue waivers?  Who is going to check that appropriate people actually have them?  Where will they be filed - Personnel files?  E-Services?  Who's going to do the extra filing?

Who is going to decide who is legitimately waiverable and who doesn't get a waiver?  Who is the appeal authority to that?  Will everyone who requests one end up getting one, once it's in practice? 

You guys are creating a ton of extra "busy" work (work that doesn't get any of our missions accomplished) for something a simple as a beard.  Simple -- keep it neat.  A beard can be professional-looking, in my opinion.  I echo what was stated above, we're not the real military. 

There are a variety of reasons the military doesn't allow full-on beards.  One of the reasons is occupational hazards/requirements.  Using the argument that we should eliminate them just so we can look closer to the real Air Force could also be used to legitimize removing rings including wedding bands when on-duty, requiring line badges be worn at the local, uncontrolled, county airport ramp, and other ridiculous, unnecessary parallels.  The fact is we perform different types of jobs than the Air Force, we're a different type of force than the Air Force, and we have a different type of personnel.  I just don't see the need to create yet another change to uniforms, create additional busy work, potentially alienate great volunteers who happen to have a beard, and just add to the headache of our organizational identity crisis.

Leave it the way it is and let's stop looking for more solutions in search of a problem.

[dwb]

Dragoon,

You say schizophrenic, I say diverse.  With the diversity of the three missions we're Congressionally chartered with, you're not going to have a unified culture.  It just ain't gonna happen.

What you end up with are subcultures, sometimes centered around our missions, sometimes not.  For example:

• Former cadets
  
• Prior service
  
• Radio geeks
  
• Ground team folks
  
• Pilots and aircrew
  
• Teachers
  
• Military wannabes
  
• CP moms/dads
  
• Power grabbers
  
• etc.
  

And those are just the senior members!  I'm sure I left some out, too.

Now, if you're, say, prior service and a former cadet, you probably feel CAP needs to be more closely aligned with its parent service, to include some of the same restrictions on our adult membership.

What about if you're a radio geek?  Or a CP mom?  Well, you're in CAP for different reasons, and may think it's silly to have to shave one's beard (although, if you're a mom, hopefully you don't have a beard!)

See what I mean?  When you say things like "We'd be better off deciding what we are, and what we're not." what you're ultimately, perhaps inadvertently, doing is creating division where it doesn't need to be.

Put another way: in order to fulfill its missions, CAP needs the radio geeks, the prior service, and the CP moms.  Even if that means we have corporate uniforms and military uniforms, and we don't apologize for it, because that's what it takes to get the people to make the missions happen.

[Eclipse]

I'll turn the question around, Why should we have to be clean shaven?  There is no practical reason, unlike the military which has the requirement because of the protective masks.

Sure there is, it has a distinctively professional look.  Look at most companies around the country, most have policies that state clean shaven- including mustaches. Most of the companies that do not mandate clean shaved also have very tight rules on beards and goatees.  It's all about the image.

I agree with the sentiment here, but in my 15+ years in the workplace, I have never been anywhere that had a beard / hair policy. 

[Eclipse]

There are other reasons to wear a beard that you all are forgetting, one is religious; there are some religions that prohibit men from shaving and even cutting their hair.  Another may be cosmetic, some people may have scars from acne, auto accidents etc that are covered up by a neatly trimmed beard.  Also there may be medical reasons.  Many black males and others with tight curly facial hair have problems with painful ingrown hairs that become infected.  This problem is exacerbated by shaving, this was the most common reason for "no shave" chits when I was in the Navy.

I think that those reasons are fine, just make an amendment that allows those people have a waiver on  shaving.  All else, clean shaved.

We don't allow for religious waivers today on beards, and I don't think the active components do either, so why should we?

[jb512]

So we're back to weight and facial hair with uniforms...

For weight, I am within the actual AF guidelines for wearing the blues but not everyone has the same genetics.  If my shirt garters aren't quite cutting it, then I'll put down the cheeseburgers and eat chicken and fruit for the week, cut out the cokes, and not eat after 7.  Weight isn't as easy for everyone though, and there are lots of really good people in the organization who are overweight.  Because of our volunteer nature, I completely agree with the two separate sets of uniforms based on that.

For facial hair, also since we are volunteer, we can't require the razors be used.  I do think though that we should allow set guidelines for beards and goatees in the corporate uniform and phase out the grays.  We have too many uniforms and that would be a compromise I could live with.  

As always, anyone who chooses and is within guidelines to wear the blues are encouraged to do so.