Questions about the blue polo shirt uniform combo and senior BDU's

[lordmonar]

In the US Armed Forces, no Cadet/Midshipman (academy or ROTC) or Officer Candidate is warranted a salute by any person, aside from another Cadet/Midshipman or Officer Candidate during training for the purposes of training and leadership development. Likewise, they would never salute an NCO, and an NCO would never salute a Cadet/Midshipman or Officer Candidate.

Cadets/Midshipmen and Officer Candidates are junior to all military personnel.

Saluting aside, in the case of CAP, a Cadet is always junior to all Senior Members, regardless of grade/time-of-service, and duty position/title.

No that is not true.  A cadet can serve as a platoon leader with full responsibility over enlisted personnel in the National Guard and Reserves.  As such a commander can instruct his enlisted personnel to render the same C&C to the cadet as a 2LT.

Just to provide citation for my assertions:

Commanders are encouraged to ensure that cadets are given courtesies and respect normally reserved for officers of the U.S. Army. Their military rank is above that of enlisted personnel, but below that of commissioned or warrant officers.

Emphasis is the regulation

3-3. Military courtesy. Cadets will serve in officer positions. Enlisted personnel will be encouraged to salute cadets and address them as "Sir" or Ma'am" or by their title and surname

Emphasis is the regulation.

What the hell is a CC Circular?   And the assertion is both factually and legally (UCMJ) wrong.   Sure the CC can order enlisted personnel to render a salute....and it would be legal.....but the wording in that CC circular is just wrong on so many levels.

[lordmonar]

The publication says salute all senior members. So salute all senior members. It's really not a big deal.

Actually, it does not say salute "all" CAP senior members.  It just states "salute CAP senior members". 

While the publication says "salute Senior Members", the intent, which is just as important, is clear that it meant salute senior member officers and further clarified by Col Lee.  Do not be obtuse about this.


But StormChaser is correct by saying "After some thought, I don't think it's worth having an argument over this."

I had a cadet just last week try to pull "but respect on display says..." when I told her not to salute CAP NCOs or CAP members in the polo combo.

There are a lot of people being obtuse about this.

[lordmonar]

I hope what I have to say puts an end to the argument. The letter of CAPP 151 implies that we salute all senior members. Col Lee has said that it is a typo, and that CAPP 151 really implies that we only salute senior member officers. So, although it can be a practice, which I choose to follow, to salute all senior members, we are only required to salute senior member officers. No one is better or worse if they salute all senior members vs. only officers. As long as we uphold the core value of respect, we're all good.

You need to stop trying to be more better then the traditions of the USAF and CAP.

DON'T SALUTE NCOs!

It makes you look stupid.  It makes CAP look stupid.

By all means...."if in doubt whip it out!".....but you can choose to follow your own practices....or you can choose to follow the practices of the USAF and CAP.

Sorry for the rant....but you are a C/Maj you should know this and set the proper example.

[LSThiker]

What the hell is a CC Circular?   And the assertion is both factually and legally (UCMJ) wrong.   Sure the CC can order enlisted personnel to render a salute....and it would be legal.....but the wording in that CC circular is just wrong on so many levels.

CC = US Army Cadet Command
Circular is similar to a Field Manual.  In fact, FM 3-21.5 Army Drill & Ceremonies became TC 3-21.5 Army Drill & Ceremonies

I will grant you that the whole SMP concept takes bit to get your head wrapped around it.  Frankly I am not sure if the USAF anything similar.  Essentially, SMP are for Guard/Reservists that contract with ROTC but remain Guard/Reservists.  They are bound by Guard/Reserve policies when on Title 32 and ROTC policies any other time.  Meaning, they are still required to fulfill their Reserve duties, such as AT and monthly drills, as well as their ROTC requirements such as LDAC, leadership labs, etc. 

As you know, there are some policies that affect only AD personnel, some policies that affect only Guard, some policies that affect only Reserves, some policies that affect Guard & Reserve but not AD, and some policies that affect only Cadets.  As a way to sort out the issues with the SMP concept, the US Army Cadet Command has dictated to the Guard and Reserves the SMP policies.  Ideally, SMP cadets would fall under an actual 2LT or 1LT and would be double slotted on the MTOE.  However, that is not always the case as a unit may not have enough officers.  So the SMP cadet is officially assigned on the MTOE into a PL position or BN staff officer position (have seen this done with a cadet being assigned as an Assistant S3 at BN as he was already working in the S3 shop when he contracted SMP).

Since the cadet has been billeted an officer position at his/her guard/reserve unit, Cadet Command has stated that commanders are encouraged to extend the C&C for cadets.  Cadet Command cannot mandate this as it would require a HQDA level change.  Therefore, Army cadets in general are never saluted as the regs do not require it.  However, the commander is allowed to require it for his/her unit only, which I have seen both company commanders and battalion commanders require for all personnel under their command.

Further, Cadet Command has tried to rectify how a cadet falls into rank.  As such, it dictates that for when a Cadet is under Title 32 orders with his/her Guard/Reserve unit, they are below officers (including WOs) but above NCOs.  However, they are never at any point allowed any command authority or special officer duties (investigating officer) but can be appointed as Officer-of-the-Day duties or motor pool officer.  Outside of their unit, they fall into a blackbox known as Cadet Command.

This is also different from ROTC cadets that are participating in CTLT with AD units, which I have seen commanders require their enlisted personnel to salute the CTLT cadet.  However, they are always paired with either a 2LT or 1LT.  I am not quite sure as it has been a while, but I am also pretty sure they are not added to the MTOE, but rather just have temporary assignment orders.   Either way, CTLT cadets are a different story. 

Is it clear as mud?

[lordmonar]

Holy holy holy lord!   

Only the Army could make something so simple into such a holy mess. 

[Eaker Guy]

I hope what I have to say puts an end to the argument. The letter of CAPP 151 implies that we salute all senior members. Col Lee has said that it is a typo, and that CAPP 151 really implies that we only salute senior member officers. So, although it can be a practice, which I choose to follow, to salute all senior members, we are only required to salute senior member officers. No one is better or worse if they salute all senior members vs. only officers. As long as we uphold the core value of respect, we're all good.

You need to stop trying to be more better then the traditions of the USAF and CAP.

DON'T SALUTE NCOs!

It makes you look stupid.  It makes CAP look stupid.

By all means...."if in doubt whip it out!".....but you can choose to follow your own practices....or you can choose to follow the practices of the USAF and CAP.

Sorry for the rant....but you are a C/Maj you should know this and set the proper example.

Its good. I rant all the time. To be honest I don't know what I would do if I encountered a NCO. However, I do choose to salute SWOGs, because they are.....senior! I don't see what the big deal is if I choose to salute someone superior than I am. The question that I think we've been dodging is "what is the relation between cadets and seniors with regards to customs and courtesies?" I salute any senior member because they are superior. How on earth does saluting someone superior than me make CAP look stupid?

[TheSkyHornet]

Holy holy holy lord!   

Only the Army could make something so simple into such a holy mess. 

The U.S. Military --- Making simple stuff complicated since 1775

I hope what I have to say puts an end to the argument. The letter of CAPP 151 implies that we salute all senior members. Col Lee has said that it is a typo, and that CAPP 151 really implies that we only salute senior member officers. So, although it can be a practice, which I choose to follow, to salute all senior members, we are only required to salute senior member officers. No one is better or worse if they salute all senior members vs. only officers. As long as we uphold the core value of respect, we're all good.

You need to stop trying to be more better then the traditions of the USAF and CAP.

DON'T SALUTE NCOs!

It makes you look stupid.  It makes CAP look stupid.

By all means...."if in doubt whip it out!".....but you can choose to follow your own practices....or you can choose to follow the practices of the USAF and CAP.

Sorry for the rant....but you are a C/Maj you should know this and set the proper example.

Its good. I rant all the time. To be honest I don't know what I would do if I encountered a NCO. However, I do choose to salute SWOGs, because they are.....senior! I don't see what the big deal is if I choose to salute someone superior than I am. The question that I think we've been dodging is "what is the relation between cadets and seniors with regards to customs and courtesies?" I salute any senior member because they are superior. How on earth does saluting someone superior than me make CAP look stupid?

Bottom line: Be respectful. Follow protocol. If someone corrects you, take it as it comes.

This is why documentation should be written clear and concise to convey the full intent of the authority writing it, and when that intent gets misinterpreted, directives should be published to clarify and the document revised as soon as feasible.

[lordmonar]

I hope what I have to say puts an end to the argument. The letter of CAPP 151 implies that we salute all senior members. Col Lee has said that it is a typo, and that CAPP 151 really implies that we only salute senior member officers. So, although it can be a practice, which I choose to follow, to salute all senior members, we are only required to salute senior member officers. No one is better or worse if they salute all senior members vs. only officers. As long as we uphold the core value of respect, we're all good.

You need to stop trying to be more better then the traditions of the USAF and CAP.

DON'T SALUTE NCOs!

It makes you look stupid.  It makes CAP look stupid.

By all means...."if in doubt whip it out!".....but you can choose to follow your own practices....or you can choose to follow the practices of the USAF and CAP.

Sorry for the rant....but you are a C/Maj you should know this and set the proper example.

Its good. I rant all the time. To be honest I don't know what I would do if I encountered a NCO. However, I do choose to salute SWOGs, because they are.....senior! I don't see what the big deal is if I choose to salute someone superior than I am. The question that I think we've been dodging is "what is the relation between cadets and seniors with regards to customs and courtesies?" I salute any senior member because they are superior. How on earth does saluting someone superior than me make CAP look stupid?

A Chief Master Sergeant is Superior to an Airman Basic.....but the Airman does not salute him.

By just doing what you want....and not following the USAF tradition means either a) YOU are too stupid to learn the traditions.  b) CAP is too inept to teach the traditions.

Do it right.

[lordmonar]

Bottom line: Be respectful. Follow protocol. If someone corrects you, take it as it comes.

This is why documentation should be written clear and concise to convey the full intent of the authority writing it, and when that intent gets misinterpreted, directives should be published to clarify and the document revised as soon as feasible.

+1

Major Fail on CAP's part with 151.

But let's hope the rewrite is better.

[Eaker Guy]

I hope what I have to say puts an end to the argument. The letter of CAPP 151 implies that we salute all senior members. Col Lee has said that it is a typo, and that CAPP 151 really implies that we only salute senior member officers. So, although it can be a practice, which I choose to follow, to salute all senior members, we are only required to salute senior member officers. No one is better or worse if they salute all senior members vs. only officers. As long as we uphold the core value of respect, we're all good.

You need to stop trying to be more better then the traditions of the USAF and CAP.

DON'T SALUTE NCOs!

It makes you look stupid.  It makes CAP look stupid.

By all means...."if in doubt whip it out!".....but you can choose to follow your own practices....or you can choose to follow the practices of the USAF and CAP.

Sorry for the rant....but you are a C/Maj you should know this and set the proper example.

Its good. I rant all the time. To be honest I don't know what I would do if I encountered a NCO. However, I do choose to salute SWOGs, because they are.....senior! I don't see what the big deal is if I choose to salute someone superior than I am. The question that I think we've been dodging is "what is the relation between cadets and seniors with regards to customs and courtesies?" I salute any senior member because they are superior. How on earth does saluting someone superior than me make CAP look stupid?

A Chief Master Sergeant is Superior to an Airman Basic.....but the Airman does not salute him.

By just doing what you want....and not following the USAF tradition means either a) YOU are too stupid to learn the traditions.  b) CAP is too inept to teach the traditions.

Do it right.

One tradition(and regulation) I've been taught is to do what I'm told. So, yes sir.

[TheSkyHornet]

It's not stupidity if someone doesn't know or isn't taught correct tradition, especially when CAP is so big in the training courses to reflect that we do things "Air Force-style," not Air Force standard.

CAP has its own standards published, and they need to reflect CAP's expectations of conduct, to include customs and courtesies.

Having military in my background, I'm well aware of who you do and don't salute when it comes to insignia and uniforms, but not everyone understands how they works when they're new to the program, or if they receive bad gouge on military vs. CAP customs. On a lot of occasions, it simply stems from the top-down where some people, especially Senior Members, never learned the correct manner themselves and passed the incorrect way of doing things on to their subordinates.

I've seen Senior Members who wear their BDUs with one sleeve unbuttoned and the other buttoned. I've seen Seniors wearing the wrong cover with their uniform. I've seen Seniors put cadets at ease when talking to the formation, then walk away when they were done, having never put the formation back to attention. I've had a Senior member much higher than myself in grade call me "Sir."

They simply don't know what they're supposed to do when they're in a position that reflect not only the public perception of the unit, but the perception of protocols by the cadets and other Seniors under them. It creates confusion, sloppiness, and unprofessionalism. And it needs to be addressed by higher-level leadership, especially when it comes to writing policies.

In a perfect world:
- Do not salute Seniors without grade
- Do not salute NCOs
- Wear the uniform properly
- Know grades/titles and how to use them properly
- Know what insignia someone is wearing, and when you are required to salute that insignia in which uniform

We don't live in a perfect world, so the strive should be to perfect as much as possible and always work to become better. This includes squadron cadets, squadron Senior Members, and all the leadership in between the squadron and BoG

[PHall]

What the hell is a CC Circular?   And the assertion is both factually and legally (UCMJ) wrong.   Sure the CC can order enlisted personnel to render a salute....and it would be legal.....but the wording in that CC circular is just wrong on so many levels.

CC = US Army Cadet Command
Circular is similar to a Field Manual.  In fact, FM 3-21.5 Army Drill & Ceremonies became TC 3-21.5 Army Drill & Ceremonies

I will grant you that the whole SMP concept takes bit to get your head wrapped around it.  Frankly I am not sure if the USAF anything similar.  Essentially, SMP are for Guard/Reservists that contract with ROTC but remain Guard/Reservists.  They are bound by Guard/Reserve policies when on Title 32 and ROTC policies any other time.  Meaning, they are still required to fulfill their Reserve duties, such as AT and monthly drills, as well as their ROTC requirements such as LDAC, leadership labs, etc. 

As you know, there are some policies that affect only AD personnel, some policies that affect only Guard, some policies that affect only Reserves, some policies that affect Guard & Reserve but not AD, and some policies that affect only Cadets.  As a way to sort out the issues with the SMP concept, the US Army Cadet Command has dictated to the Guard and Reserves the SMP policies.  Ideally, SMP cadets would fall under an actual 2LT or 1LT and would be double slotted on the MTOE.  However, that is not always the case as a unit may not have enough officers.  So the SMP cadet is officially assigned on the MTOE into a PL position or BN staff officer position (have seen this done with a cadet being assigned as an Assistant S3 at BN as he was already working in the S3 shop when he contracted SMP).

Since the cadet has been billeted an officer position at his/her guard/reserve unit, Cadet Command has stated that commanders are encouraged to extend the C&C for cadets.  Cadet Command cannot mandate this as it would require a HQDA level change.  Therefore, Army cadets in general are never saluted as the regs do not require it.  However, the commander is allowed to require it for his/her unit only, which I have seen both company commanders and battalion commanders require for all personnel under their command.

Further, Cadet Command has tried to rectify how a cadet falls into rank.  As such, it dictates that for when a Cadet is under Title 32 orders with his/her Guard/Reserve unit, they are below officers (including WOs) but above NCOs.  However, they are never at any point allowed any command authority or special officer duties (investigating officer) but can be appointed as Officer-of-the-Day duties or motor pool officer.  Outside of their unit, they fall into a blackbox known as Cadet Command.

This is also different from ROTC cadets that are participating in CTLT with AD units, which I have seen commanders require their enlisted personnel to salute the CTLT cadet.  However, they are always paired with either a 2LT or 1LT.  I am not quite sure as it has been a while, but I am also pretty sure they are not added to the MTOE, but rather just have temporary assignment orders.   Either way, CTLT cadets are a different story. 

Is it clear as mud?

The Air Force Reserve and the Air National Guard do not do anything like this.

[Mitchell 1969]

I hope what I have to say puts an end to the argument. The letter of CAPP 151 implies that we salute all senior members. Col Lee has said that it is a typo, and that CAPP 151 really implies that we only salute senior member officers. So, although it can be a practice, which I choose to follow, to salute all senior members, we are only required to salute senior member officers. No one is better or worse if they salute all senior members vs. only officers. As long as we uphold the core value of respect, we're all good.

You need to stop trying to be more better then the traditions of the USAF and CAP.

DON'T SALUTE NCOs!

It makes you look stupid.  It makes CAP look stupid.

By all means...."if in doubt whip it out!".....but you can choose to follow your own practices....or you can choose to follow the practices of the USAF and CAP.

Sorry for the rant....but you are a C/Maj you should know this and set the proper example.

Its good. I rant all the time. To be honest I don't know what I would do if I encountered a NCO. However, I do choose to salute SWOGs, because they are.....senior! I don't see what the big deal is if I choose to salute someone superior than I am. The question that I think we've been dodging is "what is the relation between cadets and seniors with regards to customs and courtesies?" I salute any senior member because they are superior. How on earth does saluting someone superior than me make CAP look stupid?

I had a break in CAP service. I left as a captain. When I came back in 1997, I had to complete Level One and meet the new training requirements. Meanwhile, I claimed 1st Lt on the strength of my long ago Earhart. But...it wasn't official until NHQ said it was official and I had my approved Form 2 in hand.

So - I was a SMWOG. I wore my uniform as per then-current regulations. No grade insignia, had cutouts on my collar and a flight cap with a blue braid. I was not an officer.

If a cadet major had come up to me then and saluted, I would have done these things, virtually simultaneously:

1) Thought "This guy is a Cadet MAJOR and is saluting me? What!?"
2) Returned the salute. (It's the polite thing to do. Not doing so is boorish, in my opinion).
3) Engaged said C/Maj in a short chat about what are and are not officers in CAP.

Which all means - if some pamphlet in 1997 was telling people to salute non-officer CAP members, and said pamphlet is still providing those instructions, then that is one genuinely long-lived typo.

[Shuman 14]

Holy holy holy lord!   

Only the Army could make something so simple into such a holy mess. 

I've never thought of it as a mess, it makes perfect sense.

On the job training can be the best training. Making mistakes as a SMP Cadet means less mistakes as a 2LT/1LT, the SMP concept is an invaluable tool.

Requiring the Enlisted personnel who are working for an SMP Cadet to respect his/her "rank" and follow his/her instruction is part of that training.

The Army has been doing this program for over twenty years now and it works.

[Mitchell 1969]

Holy holy holy lord!   

Only the Army could make something so simple into such a holy mess. 

I've never thought of it as a mess, it makes perfect sense.

On the job training can be the best training. Making mistakes as a SMP Cadet means less mistakes as a 2LT/1LT, the SMP concept is an invaluable tool.

Requiring the Enlisted personnel who are working for an SMP Cadet to respect his/her "rank" and follow his/her instruction is part of that training.

The Army has been doing this program for over twenty years now and it works.

But, admit it - the whole business is sloppy.

As you've described it, it comes down to individual COs telling people "Even though Cadet Hobgoblin is not an officer, I am decreeing that he shall receive the courtesies of an officer, even though he has not completed the course of instruction, has not been commissioned by the civilian authority that controls the armed forces of the United States, but solely because I think that you should respect him."

What's stopping them from saying "Even though they are not officers, I am decreeing that the baristas at Starbucks just off post are hard working people who deserve your respect, so you should stand at attention when placing your orders for your Supercalifragimochaccinodulce lattes?"

[Shuman 14]

But, admit it - the whole business is sloppy. 

It is, the SMP system should be address in actual Field manual and/or Regulation not just a Cadet Command Circular which either formalizes the courtesies or negates them.

But the same could be said of CAP. An USAF commander could say all the same things about CAP 1LT Hobgoblin, within his/her sphere of command and control, and you'd have Airmen presenting courtesies to CAP Officers.

All I can say is it works for the Army, and it has for 20+ years. It might not work for the USAF, USN, USMC and USCG but the program isn't going away for the Army, in fact I'd say it has increased in use and popularity since I was an SMP many moons ago.

[PHall]

But, admit it - the whole business is sloppy. 

It is, the SMP system should be address in actual Field manual and/or Regulation not just a Cadet Command Circular which either formalizes the courtesies or negates them.

But the same could be said of CAP. An USAF commander could say all the same things about CAP 1LT Hobgoblin, within his/her sphere of command and control, and you'd have Airmen presenting courtesies to CAP Officers.

All I can say is it works for the Army, and it has for 20+ years. It might not work for the USAF, USN, USMC and USCG but the program isn't going away for the Army, in fact I'd say it has increased in use and popularity since I was an SMP many moons ago.

Actually an USAF Commander could not say that. It would be an illegal order and sure to get some not-so-good attention from the Commander's boss.

[Shuman 14]

Actually an USAF Commander could not say that. It would be an illegal order and sure to get some not-so-good attention from the Commander's boss.

Please elaborate why/how that would be illegal?

I can understand a higher commander "not approving" a lower's action but I'm not seeing illegality here.

If I'm the unit commander and a CAP unit is holding meetings in a Reserve Center I control; how is it illegal for me to instruct my Troops to "render all courtesies to CAP Officers" if you interact with them while on this installation? 

[PHall]

Actually an USAF Commander could not say that. It would be an illegal order and sure to get some not-so-good attention from the Commander's boss.

Please elaborate why/how that would be illegal?

I can understand a higher commander "not approving" a lower's action but I'm not seeing illegality here.

If I'm the unit commander and a CAP unit is holding meetings in a Reserve Center I control; how is it illegal for me to instruct my Troops to "render all courtesies to CAP Officers" if you interact with them while on this installation? 

Because they are not entitled to them for starters. The only courtesies they entitled to are the same ones any civilian gets. i.e. Be Civil.

[Storm Chaser]

Actually an USAF Commander could not say that. It would be an illegal order and sure to get some not-so-good attention from the Commander's boss.

Please elaborate why/how that would be illegal?

I can understand a higher commander "not approving" a lower's action but I'm not seeing illegality here.

If I'm the unit commander and a CAP unit is holding meetings in a Reserve Center I control; how is it illegal for me to instruct my Troops to "render all courtesies to CAP Officers" if you interact with them while on this installation? 

Here's your answer:

CAP membership does not confer upon an individual any of the rights, privileges, prerogatives or benefits of military personnel, active, reserve, or retired...Air Force protocol, customs and courtesies do not apply to CAP members.

I guess you could instruct your troops to ignore this AFI, but why would you, as a commander, do that?