Questions about the blue polo shirt uniform combo and senior BDU's

[Mitchell 1969]

A new senior member is not an officer until their initial appointment to 2d Lt (unless they qualify for a higher grade).

Or, perhaps, qualify for one LOWER than 2d Lt.


Such as Flight Officer.

I'm pretty sure there's a lot of people who believe Flight Officers are a myth.

WIWAFO, people were always stopping to ask what the heck I was.

I was a warrant officer. Nobody ever asked what I was. Because I was something that really existed  somewhere, even though not in USAF, and not something totally made up.

[SarDragon]

I think I was a WO once upon a time, but have no record of it, except on an olde 101 card.

[MacGruff]

In our squadron we have a young woman who just rejoined Civil Air Patrol after a two year hiatus. The break was caused by her squadron's folding. At the time she was 17 years old but could not afford a car and the gas to drive to the next nearest squadron (ours). Now, when she is just 20 years old, she is working full time and has the money to do so. She wanted to continue with CAP to get her Mitchell, but there is insufficient time for that, and NHQ decided that she should be a Senior Member as well. So, she has rejoined as a Senior Member.

Within the next month she will become a Flight Officer. So, we will have a real live one!

[Shuman 14]

Guys,

Let's not go crazy here.  If somebody wants to salute a SMWOG "because it says so in a pamphlet," have at it.  Nobody is going to get disciplined for it.

We'll fix the typo.  Nothing to see here, folks, move along.

Look -- SQUIRREL!

[AlphaSigOU]

Combat tree rat!

[MHC5096]

I can totally relate to the whole Flight Officer confusion. While attending a CLC as 20 year old SFO I was told by three different people that the CAC was meeting down the hall and that I was in the wrong classroom. 

[THRAWN]

I can totally relate to the whole Flight Officer confusion. While attending a CLC as 20 year old SFO I was told by three different people that that CAC was meeting down the hall and that I was in the wrong classroom. 

Same here. There are people who, 20 years later, are convinced that I did stuff as a Cadet when in fact I was a TFO.

[Brit_in_CAP]

I can totally relate to the whole Flight Officer confusion. While attending a CLC as 20 year old SFO I was told by three different people that the CAC was meeting down the hall and that I was in the wrong classroom. 

Never was a FO but I'm not the greatest fan.  We've had two on the squadron; one transitioned rapidly to full SM status due to his age and the other simply confused the cadets as to what he was!

That said, the first FO was a good call; we needed him as a SM - longer story not for here - and the TFO option allowed that, quite rapidly.  Like many things CAP, it's a program that's well-intended but probably needs some work!

[TheSkyHornet]

I can totally relate to the whole Flight Officer confusion. While attending a CLC as 20 year old SFO I was told by three different people that the CAC was meeting down the hall and that I was in the wrong classroom. 

I'd say similar goes for Senior Members without grade.

I currently don't have an insignia; although, I'm coming up for promotion to 2d Lt (should have been promoted right after Level 1 but my commander was unaware of that procedure until I brought it up after some reading). Anyway, I'm the Squadron Leadership Officer and Cadet Activities Officer. So for me, I get a lot of interaction with my cadets, who know who I am and what I'm there for. But if someone else from another unit stops by, or if I happen to meet someone elsewhere, I don't have anything to differentiate that I'm a senior vs cadet in my BDus, until I take my cover off and my hairline is exposed (har har). I've had my times of being mistaken for a cadet by non-members, other CAP members, and Boy Scouts.

[vorteks]

[...] (should have been promoted right after Level 1 [...]

Not necessarily. The requirement for duty position promotion to 2d Lt is completion of Level 1 and "6 months as a member."

CAP REGULATION 35-5
Section B
  2-1.B

[TheSkyHornet]

[...] (should have been promoted right after Level 1 [...]

Not necessarily. The requirement for duty position promotion to 2d Lt is completion of Level 1 and "6 months as a member."

CAP REGULATION 35-5
Section B
  2-1.B

As a pilot, you are eligible for an early promotion at the commander's recommendation. This also applies for other external certifications.

CAPR 35-5
Section D

4-3. Initial Grades.
Members in this category will be enrolled initially without grade.
However, immediately upon completion of Level I, the unit commander may recommend the
member for appointment to a grade commensurate with his or her special skill, as outlined in
figure 5 (figure not posted in quote).

This got off topic.

[vorteks]

As a pilot, you are eligible for an early promotion at the commander's recommendation. This also applies for other external certifications.

Cool. I didn't see that qualifier in your earlier post, thus the need for clarification and my use of the term "not necessarily" (which remains applicable since even in your case the promo is at the commander's discretion, though I don't doubt it's warranted).

[Eaker Guy]

No distinction is made between Senior member Officers and NCO's.

CAPP-151, Respect on Display, page 5, first sentence under 'Key Principle.'     

" When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves."

Emphasis mine.

(I may have screwed up the quote tags)


Thanks for that.  It looks like a typo to me, which we will fix.  Our intent was to have the sentence read "When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior member officers, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves."

I've already added it to the "fix this at the next revision file."

Ned Lee
National Cadet Programs Manager

Col Lee,

I'm just curious, why the distinction between CAP Senior Member Officers and CAP Senior Members? I don't see why we have to split hairs. A senior member is a senior member. Why do we only have to salute CAP senior member officers?

V/R,

C/Maj Kiss

[LSThiker]

Col Lee,

I'm just curious, why the distinction between CAP Senior Member Officers and CAP Senior Members? I don't see why we have to split hairs. A senior member is a senior member. Why do we only have to salute CAP senior member officers?

V/R,

C/Maj Kiss

For the same reason why C/Amn do not salute C/CMSgt.  Officers are saluted, NCOs (and SMWOG) are not.

[Eaker Guy]

Col Lee,

I'm just curious, why the distinction between CAP Senior Member Officers and CAP Senior Members? I don't see why we have to split hairs. A senior member is a senior member. Why do we only have to salute CAP senior member officers?

V/R,

C/Maj Kiss

For the same reason why C/Amn do not salute C/CMSgt.  Officers are saluted, NCOs (and SMWOG) are not.

Hmmm. I still don't understand why cadets wouldn't have to SMWOGs.

[TheSkyHornet]

As a pilot, you are eligible for an early promotion at the commander's recommendation. This also applies for other external certifications.

Cool. I didn't see that qualifier in your earlier post, thus the need for clarification and my use of the term "not necessarily" (which remains applicable since even in your case the promo is at the commander's discretion, though I don't doubt it's warranted).

No worries. 

The intention of my post was to remark about how there is that confusion when it comes to identifying who is who/what. I suppose it also adds to the confusion when those in leadership positions don't always know the regulations that they should be aware of since they might to their immediate subordinate(s). This includes promotions, uniform wear, customs and courtesies.

I think we could spend all day writing up a list of issues regarding knowledge at the squadron command level. Similar goes for the top-tier squadron cadet command.

Col Lee,

I'm just curious, why the distinction between CAP Senior Member Officers and CAP Senior Members? I don't see why we have to split hairs. A senior member is a senior member. Why do we only have to salute CAP senior member officers?

V/R,

C/Maj Kiss

I'm not a subject matter expert on this, especially considering I didn't write it, but my thoughts regarding this would be that Senior Members are considered under probation and still training to be in leadership positions. They're kind of like "officer candidates" during this phase. In fact, I wouldn't be opposed to calling new Senior Members "Officer Candidates" since they're preparing to becoming CAP officers.

However, in many squadrons, including my own, new seniors, once completing their Level 1 and some even before then, take on some responsibilities within their unit, to include assignment to duty positions. In my case, I'm not a grade-holding officer, but I hold an officer title due to my duty positions. Grade vs. Title.

On a different note, while I fully understand that the intent, as stated, behind the text was supposed to say "officers," the current publication does not. And without any supporting regulatory documentation, the published text is the enforceable doctrine until it is revised. This I am a subject matter expert on, as I do this for a living as a regulatory compliance auditor. Regulations are not open to interpretation; that's why they're clear and concise, or supposed to be...

The current policy is to salute all Senior Members. Until it says otherwise, when a new Senior joins our squadron, I expect our cadets to show that person the saluting courtesies described in written text. It doesn't affect me so much since I don't take it personal, but at the same time, I'm not going to be too relaxed on the matter when it comes to other individuals since I expect my cadets to be exceptional representatives of the CAP Core Values, especially Respect, which includes the customs and courtesies defined on-paper (or PDF for that matter).

[LSThiker]

Col Lee,

I'm just curious, why the distinction between CAP Senior Member Officers and CAP Senior Members? I don't see why we have to split hairs. A senior member is a senior member. Why do we only have to salute CAP senior member officers?

V/R,

C/Maj Kiss

For the same reason why C/Amn do not salute C/CMSgt.  Officers are saluted, NCOs (and SMWOG) are not.

Hmmm. I still don't understand why cadets wouldn't have to SMWOGs.

Because they are not an officer yet.  At best, they are an "officer-in-training".  While there are exceptions, military cadets are not typically saluted by enlisted as they are not officers.

[Eaker Guy]

Col Lee,

I'm just curious, why the distinction between CAP Senior Member Officers and CAP Senior Members? I don't see why we have to split hairs. A senior member is a senior member. Why do we only have to salute CAP senior member officers?

V/R,

C/Maj Kiss

For the same reason why C/Amn do not salute C/CMSgt.  Officers are saluted, NCOs (and SMWOG) are not.

Hmmm. I still don't understand why cadets wouldn't have to SMWOGs.

Because they are not an officer yet.  At best, they are an "officer-in-training".  While there are exceptions, military cadets are not typically saluted by enlisted as they are not officers.

Ok. I think its making it a bit more complicated than it actually is, but I see the reasoning. Thanks!

[TheSkyHornet]

In the US Armed Forces, no Cadet/Midshipman (academy or ROTC) or Officer Candidate is warranted a salute by any person, aside from another Cadet/Midshipman or Officer Candidate during training for the purposes of training and leadership development. Likewise, they would never salute an NCO, and an NCO would never salute a Cadet/Midshipman or Officer Candidate.

Cadets/Midshipmen and Officer Candidates are junior to all military personnel.

Saluting aside, in the case of CAP, a Cadet is always junior to all Senior Members, regardless of grade/time-of-service, and duty position/title.

[LSThiker]

On a different note, while I fully understand that the intent, as stated, behind the text was supposed to say "officers," the current publication does not. And without any supporting regulatory documentation, the published text is the enforceable doctrine until it is revised. This I am a subject matter expert on, as I do this for a living as a regulatory compliance auditor. Regulations are not open to interpretation; that's why they're clear and concise, or supposed to be...

The current policy is to salute all Senior Members. Until it says otherwise, when a new Senior joins our squadron, I expect our cadets to show that person the saluting courtesies described in written text. It doesn't affect me so much since I don't take it personal, but at the same time, I'm not going to be too relaxed on the matter when it comes to other individuals since I expect my cadets to be exceptional representatives of the CAP Core Values, especially Respect, which includes the customs and courtesies defined on-paper (or PDF for that matter).

Regulations are in fact open to interpretation at times.  That is called command discretion. 

If you hold CAPP151 to the T, then you should be saluting senior member NCOs as well as an SM is without grade.  However, this is not appropriate as military tradition holds otherwise (yes there are exceptions such as reporting).  While salutes can be given at any time, SM officers and flight officers are the only CAP SM personnel required to be saluted.