Questions about the blue polo shirt uniform combo and senior BDU's

[TheSkyHornet]

We've both made our points on the matter. I know where you stand on it. You know where I stand. Can we drop it?

I'm not trying to disagree.  I'm just the guy who will probably have to draft any revisions to CAPP 151, and I'm trying to make sure I understand what you want me to do.

Mostly so I only have to do it once.

At this point, maybe this is something that should either be brought up in a separate post specifically for this topic, or we take it to the Private Messages.

Every time this gets discussed on this thread, it takes away from the initial post.

[LSThiker]

CAP is not an "Armed Force." That must is clear. CAP is not the military. The military does not include CAP. But if we're going to conduct ourselves as the auxiliary civilian component of the Air Force, I think we should exclude the "Air Force-style" way of operating and mirror Air Force C&C, especially on-paper, while still clarifying that we are not military and are not warranted to have courtesies rendered to us by the military. Military personnel not encouraged to salute CAP officers, regardless of what information CAP says about it. CAP officers hold no military rank or authority. CAP members should address the military according to Air Force courtesies, to include correcting any military personnel that salute CAP officers as superior officials. That's what I was getting at.

How is that different from how it is currently being done?  Everything in there is exactly how it is being done with CAP.  Also, nowhere does CAP say that military salute CAP.  Individual members, perhaps, but they are wrong period. 

Either this is the USAF Aux or this is the Not Affiliated USAF Aux.

It is not as simple as that as dictated by the USAF.  On certain missions we operate as the USAF Aux while on other missions we operate solely as CAP.  So it is not a black or white situation.

I've been around enough to know exactly what courtesies get rendered in the military. I've been there.

Sorry, usually I do not comment on this, but I will.  2 years in Army ROTC, which you claim that you were an assistant operations officer/NCO when you were really the Cadet S3, and 2 months in Officer Training Command Newport is not really having "been there". 

But I'm telling you that all across the country, there are thousands of Seniors and cadets who have no friggin' clue.

I would not say there are thousands of Seniors and cadets who have no friggin clue that you do not salute SM NCOs.  From my interactions with cadets and squadron around this nation, I would say that commanders telling cadets they need to salute NCOs is really a minority.  Being that you have only been a member since March 2015, how much interaction have you had with squadrons around the nation?

We've both made our points on the matter. I know where you stand on it. You know where I stand. Can we drop it?

If you want to drop it, it is as simple as not responding anymore. 

[TheSkyHornet]

Thousands was definitely an overreach.

If you want to discuss my military background, exposure, whatever you want to call it, shoot me a private message. I was making a point that I've received enough instruction on customs and courtesies to know what the traditions are, who to address, and when to render what to whom. Two and a half years between ROTC and OCS, while perhaps limited, should be enough time to know to whom you salute or don't. And if that isn't, then I would argue CAP members wouldn't know the difference, especially considering that half the Senior Members I've met don't know when the render courtesies or wear the uniform properly. CAP isn't all golden with honor guard quality uniformity and precision. Somewhere in the mix, these folks have fallen through the cracks, and when it gets brought up on here by the smallest minority possible, it's regarded by some as a non-existing fact.

CAP needs to do a better job of breaking down their exact intentions and disseminating that with members. Obviously this stuff is written down, but the continuous questions being posed on this board seem to indicate that there are a lot of people who aren't getting that information from their squadrons, which I believe goes back to squadron commanders. Either we're appointing people into positions with minimal understanding of military tradition or we're doing a bad job of teaching them once they assume that position.

The top-down leadership in CAP from wing to squadron sucks. Maybe that isn't the case across the entire county, but in my locale, it sucks. I do my part in my squadron and help out with what I can, and when I see something I believe to be a potential issue, I bring it to the table for discussion. It gets accepted or rejected. Fair enough. Nothing personal about it. Don't make it personal. Don't take it personal.

And I agree, the topic is over with on my end.

[LSThiker]

If you want to discuss my military background, exposure, whatever you want to call it, shoot me a private message. I was making a point that I've received enough instruction on customs and courtesies to know what the traditions are, who to address, and when to render what to whom. Two and a half years between ROTC and OCS, while perhaps limited, should be enough time to know to whom you salute or don't. And if that isn't, then I would argue CAP members wouldn't know the difference, especially considering that half the Senior Members I've met don't know when the render courtesies or wear the uniform properly. CAP isn't all golden with honor guard quality uniformity and precision. Somewhere in the mix, these folks have fallen through the cracks, and when it gets brought up on here by the smallest minority possible, it's regarded by some as a non-existing fact.

Oh I am not taking any of this as personal. 

But I was bring this up because of this:

Several cadets have recently brought up that they're required to address all persons outside of CAP as "Sir/Ma'am," which is incorrect, as military personnel who are NCOs are lower are not referred to this by other military members, with the exception of some branch-specific diversions from that rule (i.e., USMC Drill Instructors during training). Air Force NCOs are referred to by grade and last name; however, there is no official reference that I found regarding other branches.

You sure about that?  Did you know that in the USAF, it is becoming customary to address NCOs as "sir/ma'am" from lower ranking personnel?

[xray328]

So we don't salute each other in the blue polo shirt then? [emoji5]️

[SarDragon]

That's my take on the whole thing. There's no visible rank/grade insignia, and there's usually no headgear, hence, no salute.

[vorteks]

That's my take on the whole thing. There's no visible rank/grade insignia, and there's usually no headgear, hence, no salute.

... even if they're wearing "The CAP Baseball Cap"?   

[LSThiker]

That's my take on the whole thing. There's no visible rank/grade insignia, and there's usually no headgear, hence, no salute.

... even if they're wearing "The CAP Baseball Cap"?   

Sorry to burst your fun bubble for your snarky proposed question

For senior members, the rendering of customs and courtesies is expected when wearing a military-style uniform (all uniform combinations except the polo shirt and blazer).

[SarDragon]

That's my take on the whole thing. There's no visible rank/grade insignia, and there's usually no headgear, hence, no salute.

... even if they're wearing "The CAP Baseball Cap"?   

There's still no visible rank/grade insignia. 

[vorteks]

That's my take on the whole thing. There's no visible rank/grade insignia, and there's usually no headgear, hence, no salute.

... even if they're wearing "The CAP Baseball Cap"?   

There's still no visible rank/grade insignia. 

All kidding aside, there would be visible insignia if they're wearing the black fleece, which is authorized with the polo shirt.

[lordmonar]

Why not have them ask the command Chief?   He will say don't salute NCOs. Problem solved. 

[ol'fido]

Well, I see it's still the same old Captalk. Going back in my hole for another year. Puxatawney Phil, OUT!

[Shuman 14]

AR 600-25, 1-5b

AR 600-25, 1-5e

Storm Chaser,

Respectfully,no where in 1-5b does it state that SMP cadets, CAP personnel or etc. "shall not be rendered courtesies", only those who MUST be rendered courtesies.

Also, 1-5e has no barring, as SMP cadets, CAP personnel or etc. are NOT Friendly Foreign entities.

I'll stand by my revised statement.

[Mitchell 1969]

That's my take on the whole thing. There's no visible rank/grade insignia, and there's usually no headgear, hence, no salute.

... even if they're wearing "The CAP Baseball Cap"?   

There's still no visible rank/grade insignia. 

Don't salute for whatever reason is applicable. But please don't use "no headgear" as the reason or even as a reason. That's a sea service thing, not applicable to CAP, which uses USAF saluting rules as borrowed from Army rules that contain no such limitation.

[Storm Chaser]

That's my take on the whole thing. There's no visible rank/grade insignia, and there's usually no headgear, hence, no salute.

... even if they're wearing "The CAP Baseball Cap"?   

There's still no visible rank/grade insignia. 

Don't salute for whatever reason is applicable. But please don't use "no headgear" as the reason or even as a reason. That's a sea service thing, not applicable to CAP, which uses USAF saluting rules as borrowed from Army rules that contain no such limitation.

I agree the no-headgear "rule" cannot apply to CAP since the corporate aviator shirt uniform can be worn without a hat. But in the Air Force, no-headger areas are usually designated no-salute areas as well.

[lordmonar]

But in the Sea Services (Navy and Marines) one does not salute if not covered.

In the USAF we salute indoors and uncovered on several occasions (getting awards, reporting to officers in the office, etc.).
This is not something the Navy or the USMC do.

I had a USMC staff sergeant in my NCO academy class and we had a long discussion about this when we were practicing for the awards ceremony.   

[Al Sayre]

When in Rome...

[xray328]

Just out of curiosity, what's the record for number of views on a thread...I was hoping I could get a ribbon (or maybe a patch?) [emoji23]

[SarDragon]

Just out of curiosity, what's the record for number of views on a thread...I was hoping I could get a ribbon (or maybe a patch?)

You've got a l-o-o-o-ong way to go. This may not be the "record", but there have been 140,658 views of the 'official "I'm here!" thread.' First post on March 23, 2005, with a total of 1,281.