Questions about the blue polo shirt uniform combo and senior BDU's

[xray328]

Depends if it's being required or if it's being done out of mutual respect, but even then it's up to the individual I'd think in regards to this conversation (active duty to cap) To me, a salute is just a sign of respect. I don't really care if I technically don't have to salute someone, if in my eyes they deserve that respect I'm saluting regardless. I salute my commander if I'm in uniform, even if he's not. It just seems more sincere if you do it even when it's not required. So if I were an ADAF officer and a CAP Colonel walked by you better believe I'd salute him, required or not. 

I wouldn't require my officers to do that though if I was commander, I could easily see how that could get ugly. I'd tell them it's their decision.

And if I was saluted by an AF officer I'd think that was pretty cool and I'd certainly appreciate the gesture based on mutual respect. But I would never expect it or be offended if they didn't.

[abdsp51]

It is also written into AFI34-1201 who gets saluted and when.  And it's sad that the enlisted of a sister branch has to treat someone in manner they are not entitled to nor have earned.

[Storm Chaser]

Salutes are not just based on respect. If it was,  then I would be saluting CMSgt. Nonetheless, Air Force and CAP tradition requires CMSgt to salute 2d Lt and not the other way around. Customs and courtesies are based on time-honored traditions and are not just a matter of opinion.

[lordmonar]

Since there is no law that says "thou shall not salute CAP Officers or ROTC/Academy/OCS cadets"  It would not be an unlawful order.

But that is as far as it would go.

Like I said....it should be simple.  Salute Commissioned and Warrant Officers and President of the United States.   Leave all the rest at home.

[lordmonar]

Salutes are not just based on respect. If it was,  then I would be saluting CMSgt. Nonetheless, Air Force and CAP tradition requires CMSgt to salute 2d Lt and not the other way around. Customs and courtesies are based on time-honored traditions and are not just a matter of opinion.

+1 they are base on law and custom.

[xray328]

Salutes are not just based on respect. If it was,  then I would be saluting CMSgt. Nonetheless, Air Force and CAP tradition requires CMSgt to salute 2d Lt and not the other way around. Customs and courtesies are based on time-honored traditions and are not just a matter of opinion.

Great point. 

[xray328]

From a military forum...

http://www.afforums.com/index.php?threads/saluting-civil-air-patrol-officers.20091/page-4

"Gang when it comes to CAP officers, no, members of the armed forces are not required to salute them no matter how big and shiny their rank, which is identical in name and appearance to the Air Force, is because they are simply not commisioned officers in the US Armed Forces. Is it wrong. Not really. Simply not required. Being required to obey thier "orders" seems a bit far fetched as their "authority" over military members is not vested by the UCMJ, and even amongst their ranks is simply a matter of internal policy and consent of the members. I can see being told to address them by rank, when working with them in an offiical capacity as it's simply courteous. Just as addressing any civilian by a title that they have recieved....like police, fire fighters, doctors, clergy, elected officials....CAP officers do have to earn thier promotions through the requirements of the organization, which by the way has existed LONGER than the US Air Force. There is an established method to thier rank system. Its not like the CAP is some fly by night orgainization whipped together by some drinking buddies in the backwoods or praires who grab up some ragidy BDU's at the Good Will, declare themselves a militia, assign themselves ranks and "train" for God knows what.

What this boils down to is this...dont wanna salute CAP officers...FINE...dont...legally, morally, and ethicaly it's all good not to...If you wanna salute them... FINE...do...leagally, morally, ethicaly it's all good if you do....it isnt a problem to not salute them and its not a degradation to salute them..."

[Shuman 14]

Here's your answer:

CAP membership does not confer upon an individual any of the rights, privileges, prerogatives or benefits of military personnel, active, reserve, or retired...Air Force protocol, customs and courtesies do not apply to CAP members.

I guess you could instruct your troops to ignore this AFI, but why would you, as a commander, do that?

Thank you, I did not know the Air Force was so specific in it's regulations regarding CAP Officers.

So I'll rephrase my response.

As I am Army, and not governed by this AFI, so if I was in a command position, and CAP was utilizing a facility on a Reserve Center that was under my direct control, I would instruct all Army personnel under my command render all courtesies due the equivalent rank a CAP member may hold.

I'd say the same for the local LE or FD officers SDF officers, USCGAux, etc. that enter. If it's Officer rank, and they out rank you, salute and give the greeting of the day.

Why? Because I feel, based on the service that CAP (and these other agencies) provides, they are worthy of that courtesy and respect.

[Shuman 14]

It is also written into AFI34-1201 who gets saluted and when.  And it's sad that the enlisted of a sister branch has to treat someone in manner they are not entitled to nor have earned.

It's a system that's been in place, in the Army for well over twenty years and it works and it has a purpose. If an SMP Cadet is in charge, as the platoon leader, he entitled to respect and followership. Junior Enlist will emulate their NCOs. So if the Company Commander directs (as he/she should) in the firstline leadership meeting to his staff and senior NCOs "Treat the Cadet as the Officer leading/commanding that platoon" then the Cadet is entitled to certain courtesies, which includes salutes, being addressed as Sir/Ma'am and coming to the position of attention.

This is a learning tool for the Cadet as well. He learns to become comfortable with far more experienced (in most cases) subordinates calling him/her Sir/Ma'am, being saluted on a regular basis, confident that when he/she issues an order it will be acknowledged and followed by those subordinates.

Far better for that Cadet to makes the "Louie Mistakes" as a Cadet, than as a 2LT and, as a Nation still at war with terrorism, THAT saves lives down range.

When running a Platoon and dealing with real Troops, a SMP Cadet cannot learn to be Lieutenant unless he/she is treat like a Lieutenant.

I get that the Air Force doesn't have system like this, that it might not work for it's school of thought on Officer basic leadership, but it does work for the Army and has been producing quality leaders for over a generation.

[abdsp51]

Sounds like a whole lot of coddling and hand holding to me.

[Shuman 14]

Sounds like a whole lot of coddling and hand holding to me.

Occasionally there's incense and chanting too.

And hugs... lots of hugs. Do you need a hug 51? (Standing with my arms WIDE open and smiling.) 

[abdsp51]

Sounds like a whole lot of coddling and hand holding to me.

Occasionally there's incense and chanting too.

And hugs... lots of hugs. Do you need a hug 51? (Standing with my arms WIDE open and smiling.) 

Nope.  Just says something is all. 

[Shuman 14]

Darn. 

I shaved very close this morning in anticipation of giving you a hug today. (Still standing with my arms WIDE open and smiling.) 

[SarDragon]

Hugging you would be a major malfunction.

[Shuman 14]

Very pun-ny. 

[Storm Chaser]

Here's your answer:

CAP membership does not confer upon an individual any of the rights, privileges, prerogatives or benefits of military personnel, active, reserve, or retired...Air Force protocol, customs and courtesies do not apply to CAP members.

I guess you could instruct your troops to ignore this AFI, but why would you, as a commander, do that?

Thank you, I did not know the Air Force was so specific in it's regulations regarding CAP Officers.

So I'll rephrase my response.

As I am Army, and not governed by this AFI, so if I was in a command position, and CAP was utilizing a facility on a Reserve Center that was under my direct control, I would instruct all Army personnel under my command render all courtesies due the equivalent rank a CAP member may hold.

I'd say the same for the local LE or FD officers SDF officers, USCGAux, etc. that enter. If it's Officer rank, and they out rank you, salute and give the greeting of the day.

Why? Because I feel, based on the service that CAP (and these other agencies) provides, they are worthy of that courtesy and respect.

All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute. Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard), the commissioned corps of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and the commissioned corps of the Public Health Service entitled to the salute.

It is customary to salute officers of friendly foreign nations when recognized as such. The commanding general, U.S. European Command; the commanding general, U.S. Army Europe and Seventh U.S. Army; commanding general, U.S. Forces Korea and Eighth U.S. Army; commanding general, U.S. Army, Pacific; and commanding general, U.S. Army, Southern Command, are delegated the authority to establish policies for recognition courtesies prevailing locally for foreign officials. Should inactivation eliminate any of these commands, the authority will pass down to the next level of command. This authority will not be delegated further.

[TheSkyHornet]

Here's your answer:

CAP membership does not confer upon an individual any of the rights, privileges, prerogatives or benefits of military personnel, active, reserve, or retired...Air Force protocol, customs and courtesies do not apply to CAP members.

I guess you could instruct your troops to ignore this AFI, but why would you, as a commander, do that?

Thank you, I did not know the Air Force was so specific in it's regulations regarding CAP Officers.

So I'll rephrase my response.

As I am Army, and not governed by this AFI, so if I was in a command position, and CAP was utilizing a facility on a Reserve Center that was under my direct control, I would instruct all Army personnel under my command render all courtesies due the equivalent rank a CAP member may hold.

I'd say the same for the local LE or FD officers SDF officers, USCGAux, etc. that enter. If it's Officer rank, and they out rank you, salute and give the greeting of the day.

Why? Because I feel, based on the service that CAP (and these other agencies) provides, they are worthy of that courtesy and respect.

All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute. Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard), the commissioned corps of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and the commissioned corps of the Public Health Service entitled to the salute.

It is customary to salute officers of friendly foreign nations when recognized as such. The commanding general, U.S. European Command; the commanding general, U.S. Army Europe and Seventh U.S. Army; commanding general, U.S. Forces Korea and Eighth U.S. Army; commanding general, U.S. Army, Pacific; and commanding general, U.S. Army, Southern Command, are delegated the authority to establish policies for recognition courtesies prevailing locally for foreign officials. Should inactivation eliminate any of these commands, the authority will pass down to the next level of command. This authority will not be delegated further.

Completely agree with you, Storm Chaser, and appreciate the AFI/AR references you cited.


The topic of rendering salutes, once again, came up between the Seniors at the squadron meeting yesterday.

Commander feels all Seniors should be saluted, based on the regs, even NCOs. The 151 Pamphlet, again, does not distinguish the difference.

Deputy Commander disagrees. He feels Senior Member NCOs should not be saluted, nor should CAP be saluted by any military persons; however, he agrees that the current wording published by Top is what needs to be enforced until changed.

PAO agrees with Deputy Commander, with the exception that Seniors without grade should be rendered a salute, with the exception of Senior Member NCOs.

I turned the discussion to the fact that CAP regs state that CAP is to salute all ranking military officers, who are not required to salute CAP, although encouraged. My point was that the military does not get briefed on CAP regs, which do not apply to their courtesies whatsoever. The Air Force is the only branch that touches on this as far as I know. And unless the DoD is going to address the subject, I think it would be responsible for CAP to amend its regulations regarding this subject to be clear and concise for all CAP members, as well as recognize the other courtesies we render to the Armed Forces, which CAP is not.

Several cadets have recently brought up that they're required to address all persons outside of CAP as "Sir/Ma'am," which is incorrect, as military personnel who are NCOs are lower are not referred to this by other military members, with the exception of some branch-specific diversions from that rule (i.e., USMC Drill Instructors during training). Air Force NCOs are referred to by grade and last name; however, there is no official reference that I found regarding other branches. Of course, we, using common sense, already know this applies to all NCOs of all branches of the military, and should apply to junior enlisted personnel as well. But what's happening is a significant inconsistency coming from people in CAP leadership positions, both Seniors and Cadets.

It's becoming very frustrating and annoying to deal with these questions repeatedly, especially when publications to regulate and guide CAP members don't coincide with traditional customs and courtesies of the Air Force and other military branches.

I think it's time CAP big wigs work on the standardization and uniformity of all CAP customs and courtesies and their interfacing with the military. And if they want to continue to argue this "We aren't part of the Air Force" stance, employing the "Air Force-style..." implementation of our practices, then we need to recognize that we aren't the USAF Aux.

On a side note---
I can't believe this is still being discussed at this point.

[Ned]

On a side note---
I can't believe this is still being discussed at this point.

Me either.   

I think it would be responsible for CAP to amend its regulations regarding this subject to be clear and concise for all CAP members, as well as recognize the other courtesies we render to the Armed Forces, which CAP is not.

I'm not sure what you are saying here.  Could you explain?

It's becoming very frustrating and annoying to deal with these questions repeatedly, especially when publications to regulate and guide CAP members don't coincide with traditional customs and courtesies of the Air Force and other military branches.

That seems surprising to me.  I'd have thought that we were pretty well aligned with DoD C&C.

(Plus/ minus the typo in the pam regarding saluting all senior members)

What am I missing?

I think it's time CAP big wigs work on the standardization and uniformity of all CAP customs and courtesies and their interfacing with the military. And if they want to continue to argue this "We aren't part of the Air Force" stance, employing the "Air Force-style..." implementation of our practices, then we need to recognize that we aren't the USAF Aux.

I'm pretty sure I can promise that I won't use the "we aren't part of the Air Force stance."  But again, I'm still a little unsure of what your immediate concerns are.

Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Programs Manager

(The OPR for CAPP 151)

[TheSkyHornet]

On a side note---
I can't believe this is still being discussed at this point.

Me either.   

Disregard that. Having been on message boards enough in my life, I should have known that everybody's a keyboard warrior

I'm not sure what you are saying here.  Could you explain?

What I meant by that was that I think it's time to make those revisions happen, as they appear to have been discussed repeatedly on here but the numerous questions that have come up over the years. There needs to be added clarity, and ensuring that the intent by which regulations are written matches the wording of the text.

CAP is not an "Armed Force." That must is clear. CAP is not the military. The military does not include CAP. But if we're going to conduct ourselves as the auxiliary civilian component of the Air Force, I think we should exclude the "Air Force-style" way of operating and mirror Air Force C&C, especially on-paper, while still clarifying that we are not military and are not warranted to have courtesies rendered to us by the military. Military personnel not encouraged to salute CAP officers, regardless of what information CAP says about it. CAP officers hold no military rank or authority. CAP members should address the military according to Air Force courtesies, to include correcting any military personnel that salute CAP officers as superior officials. That's what I was getting at.

I'd have thought that we were pretty well aligned with DoD C&C.

(Plus/ minus the typo in the pam regarding saluting all senior members)

What am I missing?

It's incredibly sporadic across the country as to how squadrons implement and enforce C&C. I think a lot of it comes from leaders who not only don't know military courtesies to begin with, but they don't bother to read the information available to them anyhow, enhancing their overall ignorance. I don't mean to say "ignorance" as a bad thing, as if they're being neglectful, but they simply don't know, and when they don't know, they pass bad gouge down to subordinates who, in turn, also don't know.

I'm pretty sure I can promise that I won't use the "we aren't part of the Air Force stance."  But again, I'm still a little unsure of what your immediate concerns are.

Going back to my previous response to this above...
The "we aren't part of the Air Force" seems to stem down at the lower levels of the organization. Either we are part of the Air Force, or we aren't. It seems to be reflected in publications that CAP is an "Air Force-style" organization, but not Air Force. I would personally like to see CAP personnel, especially at the squadron level, to be reflective of the Air Force as the auxiliary non-combat force. CAP has a clear mission to support the Air Force and engage in non-combative defense of the Country and lifesaving emergency operations. I've seen too many times where leaders in CAP take the stance that this is not the Air Force, and we don't operate as the Air Force. This is something that furthermore needs to be clarified from the top brass of CAP and reinforced to reflect the intent of CAP's missions. Either this is the USAF Aux or this is the Not Affiliated USAF Aux.

As for CAPP 151, it has been brought up to me verbally now by people who have read it and said they don't see what the "typo" is, and they're going off of the way it's written. You say it's a typo. I believe you. I fully and completely understand the intent of the pamphlet. But the people who aren't frequenting these boards, which consists of most of CAP, have zero awareness of that matter. They download a PDF, read it, and say 'Salute all Senior Members." And that's when the cadets go to encampment, salute a Senior NCO, and get chewed out by the First Sergeant. Then they go back to their home squadron, start asking about it, and the room gets filled with 10 different answers, and by the end of the day, nobody knows the correct answer. I've been around enough to know exactly what courtesies get rendered in the military. I've been there. But a lot of people in CAP don't know the difference, and it's coming down from the exact pamphlet you wrote which you say you know there is an error.

I don't feel I'm making a big deal out of this, but it keeps coming back around as if it's something to get over. I'm over it. I know the correct way to do things. But I'm telling you that all across the country, there are thousands of Seniors and cadets who have no friggin' clue. Your pamphlet is wrong. It's non-defensible. We'll wait for the revision.

We've both made our points on the matter. I know where you stand on it. You know where I stand. Can we drop it?

[Ned]

We've both made our points on the matter. I know where you stand on it. You know where I stand. Can we drop it?

I'm not trying to disagree.  I'm just the guy who will probably have to draft any revisions to CAPP 151, and I'm trying to make sure I understand what you want me to do.

Mostly so I only have to do it once.