Vanguard quality.....

[Slim]

(2005)

One of Mark Sinicki's rubber ducks?

Oh, and the Michigan wing patch with the NH-032 squadron patch is a nice touch.

[NIN]

One of Mark Sinicki's rubber ducks?

Oh, and the Michigan wing patch with the NH-032 squadron patch is a nice touch.

dunno. They just "appeared" outside the commandants office one day.

And yeah, that was my "old" set of BDUs that never had the wing patch removed. I just put a sq patch on and headed west.

[Alaric]

To answer your earlier question, CAP outsourced our insignia business after literally decades of doing it ourselves and losing buckets of (members' hard-earned) money in so doing.  Even after multiple reorganizations and tweaks to the business model.  Our leaders wisely decided that perhaps running a retail insignia business and associated warehouse was not one of our core competencies and set up a competitive bidding process for that function that VG eventually won.  As part of that contract, VG pays a license fee for CAP-specific items back to CAP which is fenced for training.  Usually something over $100,000 a year, which so far has been returned directly to regional training centers and the regions directly.  Last year each region CP shop received a sizable grant.

We stopped losing buckets of money, and the members have received the same or better service at roughly the same prices.  Win - win.

Who's the we?  I'm paying more, getting worse quality and worse service.  Also, I don't necessarily think its a value add that money from their overpriced crap goes to CP.  I'd rather see it go to AE or ES myself.  If cadets want to participate activities, let their parents pay for it, or raise the money themselves.  Don't gouge me for "required items" and then turn over part of your bloated prices to your co-conspirator and act like you are doing a good thing.  The only people winning here are Vanguard and some cadets IMHO.

[NIN]

Yeah, never mind half the membership or so.

[Alaric]

Yeah, never mind half the membership or so.

All cadets do not participate in region activities, and you make it sound like cadets don't participate in AE or ES

[NIN]

Yeah, never mind half the membership or so.

All cadets do not participate in region activities, and you make it sound like cadets don't participate in AE or ES

You make it sound like supporting about half the membership is a bad thing.

Region CP shops don't necessarily just run region activities. There can be region-level CP initiatives that could be funded that affect all cadets in a region, not just ones who attend an activity.

[jeders]

All cadets do not participate in region activities...

Not, not all cadets do participate in regional or national activities. However, more of them are able to participate thanks to the funds. This is done through offsets of participation fees as well as facility upgrades that expand an activities capacity. Of course there are also region level programs that are directed at individual activities, but rather at making the CP better for all cadets.

...and you make it sound like cadets don't participate in AE or ES

Well, not all cadets participate in ES, nor do all senior members. But, at least some of these funds go to ES and AE related cadet activities and initiatives. So, while these funds are centered on cadets, they are being used to help all 3 missions in one way or another. Just because you still have to pay the full price for a CAP aircraft to go fly doesn't mean that the monies are being used to help build up our ES and AE missions.

[Alaric]

Yeah, never mind half the membership or so.

All cadets do not participate in region activities, and you make it sound like cadets don't participate in AE or ES

You make it sound like supporting about half the membership is a bad thing.

Region CP shops don't necessarily just run region activities. There can be region-level CP initiatives that could be funded that affect all cadets in a region, not just ones who attend an activity.

I think people should have the option of supporting what they wish.  I think that if cadets want to participate in activities then they should either fundraise, or have their parents pay.  Which is how every youth activity I ever participated worked (Boy Scouts, Explorers, Sports, Academic Olympics, Math Team).  I got a job, my troop fund raised.  Our local uniform store didn't overcharge for lousy quality and then kick-back the money to the Scout Council.

[jeders]

I think people should have the option of supporting what they wish. 

And by joining CAP, you are choosing to support all 3 missions, of which CP has by far the largest participation.

[Alaric]

All cadets do not participate in region activities...

Not, not all cadets do participate in regional or national activities. However, more of them are able to participate thanks to the funds. This is done through offsets of participation fees as well as facility upgrades that expand an activities capacity. Of course there are also region level programs that are directed at individual activities, but rather at making the CP better for all cadets.

...and you make it sound like cadets don't participate in AE or ES

Well, not all cadets participate in ES, nor do all senior members. But, at least some of these funds go to ES and AE related cadet activities and initiatives. So, while these funds are centered on cadets, they are being used to help all 3 missions in one way or another. Just because you still have to pay the full price for a CAP aircraft to go fly doesn't mean that the monies are being used to help build up our ES and AE missions.

And making things better is nice, but not at the expense of the membership by pawning off overpriced, poor quality "required" items on them.  Is there anyplace that we can access real numbers as opposed to anecdotes on what Vanguard does or doesn't do.  I have a finance and accounting background and would like to see real numbers.

[Alaric]

I think people should have the option of supporting what they wish. 

And by joining CAP, you are choosing to support all 3 missions, of which CP has by far the largest participation.

So you're saying that members of Senior Squadrons are not members of CAP?

[Alaric]

I think people should have the option of supporting what they wish. 

And by joining CAP, you are choosing to support all 3 missions, of which CP has by far the largest participation.

No I'm not at least not equally, and neither are most people.  I know plenty of CP people who do no ES.  Plenty of ES types who don't do AE or CP.  Don't really know any pure AE types.  I support CP by doing those tasks such as Admin, Finance, and PD so that people who want to work with cadets don't need to worry about it.

[jeders]

And by joining CAP, you are choosing to support all 3 missions, of which CP has by far the largest participation.

So you're saying that members of Senior Squadrons are not members of CAP?

Now you're putting words in my mouth. If you'll read what you quoted, you will see that they are, or should be, supporting all three missions of CAP. They should be helping their community through ES. They should be conducting both internal and external AE by having classes and sponsoring lectures. And they should be teaching AE to the local Cadet Squadron and flying O-Rides for them. Now if they aren't doing all these things, if instead they are just a GOB flying club, then they aren't doing a very good job at accomplishing their missions, but they're still members.

No I'm not at least not equally, and neither are most people. 

I don't even understand what you're trying to say with this sentence.

I know plenty of CP people who do no ES.  Plenty of ES types who don't do AE or CP.  Don't really know any pure AE types.  I support CP by doing those tasks such as Admin, Finance, and PD so that people who want to work with cadets don't need to worry about it.

I also know plenty of CP people who never touch ES, but they help those who want to do ES accomplish their goals. I also know some AE people who only do AE and they are the best at what they do; but they don't try to detract from the CP folks or the ES gurus. Another thing I know, which you seem to enjoy ignoring, is that more than half of our membership is made up of cadets. When you factor in the number of senior members whose primary focus is CP, regardless of whether they also do ES, you get back to the fact that CP has by far the largest participation.

None of this changes the fact that Vanguard is overpriced for the quality they seem to offer us, but you seem to want to blame everything on the cadets and CP instead of contacting Vanguard and working to get higher quality goods for the price paid. Considering that most of the problems result from a lack of QA/QC, a few calls/emails/letters ought to help matters a whole lot more than coming on CAPTalk and whining about cadets getting a few extra dollars.

[Alaric]

And by joining CAP, you are choosing to support all 3 missions, of which CP has by far the largest participation.

So you're saying that members of Senior Squadrons are not members of CAP?

Now you're putting words in my mouth. If you'll read what you quoted, you will see that they are, or should be, supporting all three missions of CAP. They should be helping their community through ES. They should be conducting both internal and external AE by having classes and sponsoring lectures. And they should be teaching AE to the local Cadet Squadron and flying O-Rides for them. Now if they aren't doing all these things, if instead they are just a GOB flying club, then they aren't doing a very good job at accomplishing their missions, but they're still members.

No I'm not at least not equally, and neither are most people. 

I don't even understand what you're trying to say with this sentence.

I know plenty of CP people who do no ES.  Plenty of ES types who don't do AE or CP.  Don't really know any pure AE types.  I support CP by doing those tasks such as Admin, Finance, and PD so that people who want to work with cadets don't need to worry about it.

I also know plenty of CP people who never touch ES, but they help those who want to do ES accomplish their goals. I also know some AE people who only do AE and they are the best at what they do; but they don't try to detract from the CP folks or the ES gurus. Another thing I know, which you seem to enjoy ignoring, is that more than half of our membership is made up of cadets. When you factor in the number of senior members whose primary focus is CP, regardless of whether they also do ES, you get back to the fact that CP has by far the largest participation.

None of this changes the fact that Vanguard is overpriced for the quality they seem to offer us, but you seem to want to blame everything on the cadets and CP instead of contacting Vanguard and working to get higher quality goods for the price paid. Considering that most of the problems result from a lack of QA/QC, a few calls/emails/letters ought to help matters a whole lot more than coming on CAPTalk and whining about cadets getting a few extra dollars.

I'm not blaming anything on the cadets, I just think they should be more financially self sufficient.  Also, until I see some actual numbers on real financial statements, I have no idea how much money Vanguard kicks back to CAP, if any; and how much of that goes to any particular area.  As for why you think complaining to a sanctioned monopoly would actually do any good is a mystery, though I have indeed sent written complaints to Vanguard.  Also, since you seem worried about proper quoting, my section of this began with a response to Ned, and his statement that going to Vanguard was a win-win see below:

"To answer your earlier question, CAP outsourced our insignia business after literally decades of doing it ourselves and losing buckets of (members' hard-earned) money in so doing.  Even after multiple reorganizations and tweaks to the business model.  Our leaders wisely decided that perhaps running a retail insignia business and associated warehouse was not one of our core competencies and set up a competitive bidding process for that function that VG eventually won.  As part of that contract, VG pays a license fee for CAP-specific items back to CAP which is fenced for training.  Usually something over $100,000 a year, which so far has been returned directly to regional training centers and the regions directly.  Last year each region CP shop received a sizable grant.

We stopped losing buckets of money, and the members have received the same or better service at roughly the same prices.  Win - win."

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

So you're saying that members of Senior Squadrons are not members of CAP?

I do not think anyone is inferring that.

However, having been a member of all three types of CAP squadrons (including one Cadet that switched to Composite status), including a Senior squadron for almost two years, I can say that, in my experience at least, there are many in Senior squadrons who want nothing to do with CP, or, in fact, AE.

Example: when the subject of cadet O-rides would be brought up in my former unit, one could almost hear the groans.

[NIN]

Example: when the subject of cadet O-rides would be brought up in my former unit, one could almost hear the groans.

My Cadet Squadron inherited a senior squadron in 1997 to form a Composite Squadron.

Seniors in cadet & composite squadrons groan in a similar way when confronted with a senior squadron.

[NIN]

I just had a very nice conversation with Mr. Bostwick, who is the program manager for CAP at Vanguard.

I think Ned already said it, but I'll reiterate: CAP apparently never provided Vanguard with a legit set of drawings/specs for grade insignia when they took over from CAPMart.  Unlike the USAF and all the other military services, which have an exhaustive set of specs (they don't call it "mil-spec" for nothing!) for every single bit of bling-bling that goes on the uniform, we don't have similar.  No color specs, to-scale drawings with measurements, specifications for things like pin configuration, etc.

So all Vanguard got was a box of "CAP-specific" insignia and "Here's what its supposed to look like." 

That's probably a serious oversight on CAP's part, but it happened years ago, and the question is, how do CAP and Vanguard move forward without placing undue burden on the membership, and without increasing costs due to loss.

Would be bad to be the cadet who gets "new made" chevrons that meet a printed/established standard, but don't match "what we've been buying for years" (ie. "going the other way"). Imagine how some units would go overboard on 'making sure its all matching'.


(As an aside: I had a funny thought pop into my head today.  Did my unit buy insignia from the Hock Shop years ago before Tom shut down?  Could these chevrons be left over Hock Shop-made metal insignia that somehow were floating around in our supply box?  I mean, I didn't even THINK about that possibility, since its been years since the unit bought anything from the Hock Shop, probably 5-6 years?  I couldn't imagine that we'd have any C/A1C and C/SrA floating around that long, based on the amount of cadets we have cycle thru our program and who leave in Phase I, but I suppose its a possibility...  That would be embarrassing on my part.... <GRIN>  I would have to eat some serious crow.)

[a2capt]

It's very simple.
They make these:

http://www.vanguardmil.com/enlisted-rank-enameled-c-4_300_305.html

... just swap the prop shield in for the circled star.


(Though, cadets do get a -much better- deal on their insignia.. )

I just don't understand how making it straight vs. curved is any more expensive. 

No, it's what happens when you don't give your vendor a spec.

However.. a great specimen can also be a specification, too. "Here, they need to look like this."

Get back something with straight edges? Nope, not the same. You didn't do what we asked.

Instead you've got vendors giving you what they want, not what you want. Like the ID card with the barcode, which I still find ironic, in that they put barcodes on the CAPF 101, but "had no idea" one on the ID card would have been used by anyone, despite having been there for a little over 10 years.

[Eclipse]

how do CAP and Vanguard move forward without placing undue burden on the membership, and without increasing costs due to loss.

We task a small working group to create the specs ASAP - volunteer members.

As to go-forward, if we match colors shapes and sizes, there should be little to no difference, at least in a pair.

A small group of people with 1/2 a clue should be able to knock this out in a couple weeks.

Like I always say "you can't fix yesterday, but you can fix next time".

[Майор Хаткевич]

I think people should have the option of supporting what they wish.  I think that if cadets want to participate in activities then they should either fundraise, or have their parents pay.  Which is how every youth activity I ever participated worked (Boy Scouts, Explorers, Sports, Academic Olympics, Math Team).  I got a job, my troop fund raised.  Our local uniform store didn't overcharge for lousy quality and then kick-back the money to the Scout Council.

Oh my. I bet you wish you could do that with your tax dollars as well? Ever look at what some CAP activities cost? Outside of scholarships, no cadets get free rides for anything, really. Sure CAP is cheaper than Cheerleading or Football team, or a myriad of other things, but there are costs still present, and I dare say at times CAP is the option for THOSE kids who simply CAN'T afford any of those expensive "school" programs. As much as we shedog about stuff at times, is the stuff really that bad? I've seen some embroidery that wasn't the best, but we get stuff that looks like other stuff, and in pictures today or 10 years ago, it's hard to tell it apart.