Rank insignia on the service coat

[brent.teal]

So we got a bit off topic on the ABU thread regarding rank insignia on the service coat.  Some believe that the grey epaulets don't look quite right on the class A service coat.  I'm one of them.  I had mentioned in the previous threat that I was one of the few that thought the maroon epaulets seemed to be a better match color wise, Dark maroon with dark blue vs light grey with dark blue. 

So possible options anyone? 

Someone mentioned changing the rank insignia itself to be a bit more distinctive, as the CG aux does.  That made me think of how our BDU's look.  Perhaps something a bit nicer looking, than the BDU sew on but the same concept sewn on the epaulets of the coat. 

[Shuman 14]

Well as the newbie here and as the outsider looking in I agree that the grey epaulets do look a little off and I can see how some CAP members might be put off by them and how it could feel like a "mass punishment" for an offense committed over twenty years ago.

When I was in HS I can vaguely remember CAP Officers wearing the letters "C.A.P." in place of the letters "U.S." on the tunic lapels and a different nametag, but otherwise they looked exactly like an USAF Officer.

There is Good, and Bad, in that.

One Team - One Fight, with a common uniform and a common look is the good thing.

Being confused for an USAF Officer is the bad.

Both are subject to abuse by unprofessional CAP members trolling for salutes.

Maybe you could take an example from the USCGAux on their office insignia.

I know the silver vs gold USCG style shoulder boards might not work for CAP but all USCGAux pin-on and sew-on insignia (i.e. rank) all have a superimposed letter "A" for Auxiliary on them. So maybe a solution would be to create rank insignia with a superimposed "CAP" on them? Using red (or maroon) as the letter color will make them stand out on the silver or gold rank device.

Another solution might be to create a colored felt or plastic backer to your rank insignia like the light blue discs used by US Army Infantry personnel. This would create a colored border around your rank which make it clearly different at a glance but not look as "off" as the current grey epaulets. Again a red border (or maroon) around your rank on the blue coat/jacket/tunic epaulets would actually look very good.

Plus with modern embroidery, making epaulet slides for your shirts with either superimposed red "CAP" letters or a red rank borders (or both) on a blue slide would not be hard.

Again just a suggestion from someone outside your organization who thinks you do great work and wants you to look good while doing it.

[lordmonar]

My take has always been the USAF Style CAP uniform is exactly the same as the AD USAF uniforms with the addition of a CAP patch on the left shoulder.....and a blue hat with the ABUs.

One fight one uniform.

[SpookyDude]

One set of uniforms for all! (so long as veterans can wear their military-earned fruit salad) 

[Shuman 14]

My take has always been the USAF Style CAP uniform is exactly the same as the AD USAF uniforms with the addition of a CAP patch on the left shoulder.....and a blue hat with the ABUs.

One fight one uniform.

Forgive my ignorance, but is a shoulder patch a CAP tradition? Can't say in my 23 years of Military Service I've ever seen a shoulder patch on an Air Force uniform.

Also I concur with the Blue patrol cap... a simple, yet professional, quick differentiation between CAP and USAF.

[ol'fido]

My preference is for metal rank insignia, CAP cutouts, and wing patches. Not everyone likes the wing patches on blues or service dress but it's how it was when I was a cadet. I liked it. I also think we should go back to the blue rank slides on the shirts. I liked those too.

I don't think that we should set up the uniforms of 60,000 people on the premise that Airman Joe Snuffy can't tell the difference and might actually salute somebody he doesn't have to. That doesn't say anything about us. It says something about the Air Force.

[Eclipse]

Being confused for an USAF Officer is the bad.

CAP members being confused for USAF Officers happens so infrequently as to be essentially the stuff of urban legends.

[Fubar]

Being confused for an USAF Officer is the bad.

CAP members being confused for USAF Officers happens so infrequently as to be essentially the stuff of urban legends.

Huh. I see it happen every time one of my fellow CAP members wears a AF style uniform in public.

[wuzafuzz]

Being confused for an USAF Officer is the bad.

CAP members being confused for USAF Officers happens so infrequently as to be essentially the stuff of urban legends.

Huh. I see it happen every time one of my fellow CAP members wears a AF style uniform in public.

Problematic confusion is the rarity.  Seriously, how often does it cause meaningful trouble if John Q. Public doesn't know the difference?  I'm not talking about the nearly mythical salute troll, but a CAP member going about their business responsibly and wearing the uniform properly.  The wailing and gnashing of teeth on this issue is all out of proportion to the incidence of actual incidents.

Having said all that, I'm a big fan of the polo shirt uniform.  Most of the time I simply have no need for the other uniforms and could care less whether anyone knows I can wear major's oak leaves in CAP.

[NorCal21]

I'm not talking about the nearly mythical salute troll, but a CAP member going about their business responsibly and wearing the uniform properly.  The wailing and gnashing of teeth on this issue is all out of proportion to the incidence of actual incidents.

What you do you mean "nearly mythical?" Its a well documented problem in CAP. That doesn't mean its a common problem at all, but we all know it happens. We've either seen it, or there are members who have been booted for doing exactly that. Just like the Major (CAP) who was on a base around Kansas or something demanding a salute from the SP at the gate. There's nothing mythical about it.

However, with that being said, the CGAUX has its own issues. Its more rare in my experience than it is with CAP for a few reasons.

First, the CGAUX works side-by-side with the USCG even receiving official orders for CGAUX members to be stationed aboard cutters or aircraft. Its less like you're going to have people trolling for salutes NOTICEABLY because you tend to get them anyway. Not always, but on most bases you either have a very formal approach where the base commander wants CGAUX members respected, or its a smaller base where the level of familiarity means hardly anyone is saluted anyway.

Second, I think (I could be wrong) there are less CGAUX members than CAP. So you're going to have less instances of bad uniforms and salute trolls with a smaller force.

Third, there is a cultural difference between the AF and the CG. AF is considerably more military like (which is odd for me to say as a prior service Marine) than the CG. The CG has a greater level of a familiarity within its ranks. Officers routinely speak to their crew by their first names even.

Anyway, my worst experience with a uniform issue in the CGAUX was one time up at the Academy where I saw an Auxiliarist walking around in a flight suit and flip flops. Moron.

[NorCal21]

So we got a bit off topic on the ABU thread regarding rank insignia on the service coat.  Some believe that the grey epaulets don't look quite right on the class A service coat.  I'm one of them.  I had mentioned in the previous threat that I was one of the few that thought the maroon epaulets seemed to be a better match color wise, Dark maroon with dark blue vs light grey with dark blue. 

So possible options anyone? 

Someone mentioned changing the rank insignia itself to be a bit more distinctive, as the CG aux does.  That made me think of how our BDU's look.  Perhaps something a bit nicer looking, than the BDU sew on but the same concept sewn on the epaulets of the coat.

I've made this suggestion I'm about to make again a few times in the past here...

I could care less about wearing ABUs. They're hot (although I guess the new ripstop won't be) and heavy. Either way, for this scenario lets say CAP was already wearing them. I would say that we would mirror the AF in the entire uniform but either use ABU colored nametape that says Civil Air Patrol, or to make it more distinguishing without looking ridiculous use the old subdued patches from the BDUs. That would distinguish members without it standing out like a sore thumb.

I think the blue cover on an ABU would look dumb. No offense to the person who made the suggestion. Why wear an ABU if you're going to do that? The point of wearing the ABU is to match the AF. If you're going to go so far off uniform than just stick with what we've got. You'll run the risk of looking dumb like the Indiana Guard Reserve which wears ACUs but with black patrol caps. I was walking around Camp Atterbury thinking there was a buttload of instructors on that base as the Army uses black caps for instructors in a class.

For the blues... no patches. That's just dumb. I realize that it was done for awhile in the past, but so where many things. We thought separate but equal was fine in the past too but looking back we all realize it was stupid (and racist but that's a different point). We should go back to blue slides that CAP on the top (closest to neck).

The AF is too worried about the relatively few number of CAP members who are playing themselves off as AF officers. Just boot them from CAP and make it publicly known. That should be enough. If it gets egregious enough take it to the next step. One thing I've not seen, or heard of, from the CGAUX is this problem. I'm sure it exists in some small number, but I know CGIS takes care of it real quick and quiet like. Gets rid of the member, lets them go on their way, and does no harm publicly to the CGAUX or the Coast Guard.

[lordmonar]

Okay....here is my story.....this happened just Yesterday.

I'm standing outside the Nellis Airman Leadership School.  I'm in short sleeve blues.....I'm a CAP SNCO......a SrA come walking up to and pops me a salute......he saw the silver insignia on my flight cap and instantly thought "Officer" and popped me a salute.

He almost instantly saw I was and NCO and we all had a laugh.

I RETURNED his salute......and told him he did right.....he saw "shiny on a hat" and saluted.

90% of the general public can't tell the USAF from the Marines, Army, Navy or the Boy Scouts.
90% of the USAF does not even know that CAP exists let alone how to identify us in low light and at a distance.

IMHO it is not really issue.   As Eclipse said.....the few instances where we (and the USAF) have screwed the pooch on "I thought he was in the USAF".....are not really that big of a deal.....and could be fixed by the USAF taking some time at basic training and during PME to educate their people about who we are, what we are about, how to recognize us, and what we are allowed and not allowed to do.

So......If I were SECAF for a day.

CAP would have the same uniforms as the USAF.   We would have a patch on the left shoulder of our uniforms (all of them except the mess dress).  We would wear subdued name and Civil Air Patrol tapes on our ABU's and wear an Ultra Marine Blue base ball cap.

This take care of all the instances of being distinctive while at the same time being part of the team.

A CAP Col standing in front of some airman at the MPF/Supply/Flight Ops.....is readily recognizable as a member of CAP.....because of the patch.
At 30 feet he blends into the back ground with all of the other officers.

AND THIS GOES FOR THE FAT AND FUZZIES TOO!

P.s. We would keep the polos....just swap the crest and name around and wear khaki pants....again to match up with USAF policies.

[Shuman 14]

You'll run the risk of looking dumb like the Indiana Guard Reserve which wears ACUs but with black patrol caps.

I know quite a few IGR members as I live in Indiana. I've seen them in the black patrol cap, it doesn't look dumb at all, in fact it looks very professional and is a simple, yet very clear way to tell a SDF member from an Army Soldier.

BTW, they only wear the Black patrol cap in garrison, when conducting field problems they wear ACU pattern patrol caps or boonie caps.

[Shuman 14]

Again, as an outsider looking in, I see part of the problem is that CAP does not work as closely with the USAF as the USCGAux does with the USCG.

There is really no "augmentation" for CAP like what the USCGAux does, so the USAF doesn't see the day-to-day value added of the organization.

The USCGAux also has , for lack of a better word, a "rank device" called a member device and blank shoulder boulders called member boards.

Whenever a USCGAux members is augmenting a USCG vessel or station, they must take off their office insignia (ie silver "rank" devices) and put on member devices or boards. The only exception to this is the uniform coat because the silver "rank" is sewn on to the sleeve cuff and can't be removed. Regardless, the color silver and the superimposed "A" on the pin-on ranks are clear differentiators.

Maybe, if I could suggest, that CAP find a way to work closer with the USAF. For example, marry up with local USAFR and AFNG units and provide them support, even if its just moral support by bringing cookies to their drills.

Also the USCGAux has a mission to support the USCG recruiters so Auxies can augment recruiting stations and also support the New London Academy's recruiting efforts as well.

I would think with the CAPs' role in cadet programs the USAF recruiters and Colorado Springs would LOVE you guys and gals.

I think the closer you get the USAF and the more value you provide to their existing missions the more accepting of you they will be and the closer alignment will help the uniform issue correct itself.

[Eclipse]

I'm not talking about the nearly mythical salute troll, but a CAP member going about their business responsibly and wearing the uniform properly.  The wailing and gnashing of teeth on this issue is all out of proportion to the incidence of actual incidents.

What you do you mean "nearly mythical?" Its a well documented problem in CAP.

No. It isn't.

Not even a little.

[lordmonar]

I'm not talking about the nearly mythical salute troll, but a CAP member going about their business responsibly and wearing the uniform properly.  The wailing and gnashing of teeth on this issue is all out of proportion to the incidence of actual incidents.

What you do you mean "nearly mythical?" Its a well documented problem in CAP.

No. It isn't.

Not even a little.

Other than the anecdotal CAP officer being rude to some airman, trolling for salutes, etc.......about the only real FUBAR was back in the 90's where some Airman loaned out some M-16s to a CAP officer for an encampment or some such activity.

The FUBAR on that was not so much that the CAP officer was "posing" as an officer but that the SF armory guy gave out weapons to ANY officer.

My squadron is on Nellis AFB and we very seldom have any problems.  And when we do.....we handle them quickly and forcefully.....last one we had, was during the last air show.  A CAP officer got a ticket for speeding and then tried to pull rank, and complain about "why are you pulling people over and not out keeping the base safe" sort of argument.

This officer was quickly set straight by the Air Show project officer and was made to appolgise to the SF commander and the SF troop in question.
We don't tolerate that sort of shenanigans here. 

[Garibaldi]

Why can't people get it into their thick skulls that we are CIVILIANS who are afforded the PRIVILEGE of wearing a military-style uniform?

[abdsp51]

Again, as an outsider looking in, I see part of the problem is that CAP does not work as closely with the USAF as the USCGAux does with the USCG.

Maybe, if I could suggest, that CAP find a way to work closer with the USAF. For example, marry up with local USAFR and AFNG units and provide them support, even if its just moral support by bringing cookies to their drills.

I think the closer you get the USAF and the more value you provide to their existing missions the more accepting of you they will be and the closer alignment will help the uniform issue correct itself.

1) How so?

2) Many organizations associated with the AF do this. 

3) We are already close,  the uniform issue will correct itself when members adhere to the regs(especially uniform wear), ditch any belief in entitlement, and focus on what can be provided to the AF rather than what the AF should provide us.

[Eclipse]

Why can't people get it into their thick skulls that we are CIVILIANS who are afforded the PRIVILEGE of wearing a military-style uniform?

The concept of "privilege" is lost on a significant sector of our population where everything is "deserved".

There's also the issue of being handed something with no knowledge of what it represents, and earning something you have a clue about.

Not to mention stewardship of your organization vs. personal desires.

[NorCal21]

You'll run the risk of looking dumb like the Indiana Guard Reserve which wears ACUs but with black patrol caps.

I know quite a few IGR members as I live in Indiana. I've seen them in the black patrol cap, it doesn't look dumb at all, in fact it looks very professional and is a simple, yet very clear way to tell a SDF member from an Army Soldier.

BTW, they only wear the Black patrol cap in garrison, when conducting field problems they wear ACU pattern patrol caps or boonie caps.

I'll just chalk it up as a difference of opinion. Black patrol cap is for instructors. There's no need for the difference in garrison.