Wings (Air Crew Badge) for Scanners?

[supertigerCH]

What does everyone think about "wings" ("Air Crew" badge) for scanners, doctors, nurses, and other CAP members who spend many hours flying in CAP aircraft?


At first... because these people are not involved with flying the aircraft... a badge might not seem appropriate.

However... if we were to follow the lead the Air Force takes on this question... we see that the Air Force gives wings to all sorts of Air Crew members (even if they are not pilots or navigators).


Being part of a trained air crew appears to be enough...



PILOT

NAVIGATOR / OBSERVER



FLIGHT SURGEON

FLIGHT NURSE

AIR BATTLE MANAGER

SENSOR OPERATOR

AIR CREW



All of the above (as far as I know) wear wings on their uniform.

Does it make sense then, or would it be appropriate... for CAP to have specific "wing" badges created for other "non-pilot" members who train... and log enough hours flying in an aircraft?

What does everyone think?



Here's a quick link to see some examples of the Air Force's many types of wings:
(Just wikipedia, but hey... good enough for a quick look)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badges_of_the_United_States_Air_Force

[SarDragon]

What does everyone think about "wings" ("Air Crew" badge) for scanners, doctors, nurses, and other CAP members who spend many hours flying in CAP aircraft?

At first... because these people are not involved with flying the aircraft... a badge might not seem appropriate.

However... if we were to follow the lead the Air Force takes on this question... we see that the Air Force gives wings to all sorts of Air Crew members (even if they are not pilots or navigators).

Being part of a trained air crew appears to be enough...

PILOT
NAVIGATOR / OBSERVER

FLIGHT SURGEON
FLIGHT NURSE
AIR BATTLE MANAGER
SENSOR OPERATOR
AIR CREW

All of the above (as far as I know) wear wings on their uniform.

Does it make sense then, or would it be appropriate... for CAP to have specific "wing" badges created for other "non-pilot" members who train... and log enough hours flying in an aircraft?

What does everyone think?

Here's a quick link to see some examples of the Air Force's many types of wings:
(Just wikipedia, but hey... good enough for a quick look)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badges_of_the_United_States_Air_Force

Scanner, maybe. More later.

Who are these doctors, nurses, and other CAP members who spend many hours flying in CAP aircraft? We have no flight surgeon/nurse jobs in CAP. Those who do fly are doing so as MPs, MOs, and MSs. RealMilitary™ flight surgeons are doctors first, and aircrew second. Even then, the flying is a bennie, and not a regular duty. They get specialty training associated with the physiology og flying, and its side effects on the human body. Flight nurses are like the olde time original stewardesses, but CAP has nothing for them to do. What other folks fly these many hours you speak of? Help us understand.

ABMs work in the air, but CAP has no real direct equivalent. MO comes the closest, but even that's a stretch. Sensor operators and other aircrew fly, too, but they get oodles of training before setting foot in a plane. Again, CAP has no real direct equivalent, so there's no comparison there, either.

I think you've got a solution looking for a problem, myself.

YMMV.

Scanner is viewed by most as a stepping stone to MS or MO, since it is a prerequisite for either. There has been discussion of wings for scanners, but it always ends up going flat, with little action past the huffing and puffing of the folks who are ardent about the issue.

[coudano]

I do feel that mission scanners (as well as things like airborne photographers, or other sensor operators who physically go up into the sky to do their job) should have a "wingy" badge.  IMHO it should be the 'mission observer' badge become "general aircrew" badge, and keep the pilots wings for pilots who actually stick and rudder the plane.

The rest of your analogy to the military breaks down pretty early though   since CAP doesn't work "like that"

[wuzafuzz]

+1

Expand the crew wings to Aerial Photographers and Mission Scanners.  Most of their job is in the air.  In fact I've had to work harder as an AP than I ever did as a Scanner.

I already have Observer wings, so this isn't a bling quest.  It just seems right.

[arajca]

A proposal for aircrew (Scanner, Aerial Photographer, High Bird Radio Operator, ARCHER) has already been submitted to the black hole called National.

Added: for those who missed it...

[N Harmon]

Expand the crew wings to Aerial Photographers and Mission Scanners.

I agree. All aircrew should have wings.

[supertigerCH]

Good thoughts everyone!!  Yeah... Air Force flight crew jobs are certainly not not the same as CAP jobs.  You are very correct when you say... that doctors and nurses (that happen to join CAP) are not the same thing as flight surgeons and flight nurses.

Just throwing the comparison out there... because it was the easiest way for people to undertand what I'm saying.  Very true... that only CAP members who's main job is to fly on aircraft... would even have a chance of getting wings awarded someday.

Of course it should never be "just because someone joins CAP" -- and happens to fly sometimes.

[68w20]

Flight nurses are like the olde time original stewardesses, but CAP has nothing for them to do.

Stewardesses?  Would you mind extrapolating?  About .5 seconds of googling will show that the role of flight nurses, specifically military flight nurses, is a little more involved than bringing someone peanuts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_nurse

Am I misunderstanding you here?

[Ed Bos]

What does everyone think about "wings" ("Air Crew" badge) for scanners, doctors, nurses, and other CAP members who spend many hours flying in CAP aircraft?
...
Does it make sense then, or would it be appropriate... for CAP to have specific "wing" badges created for other "non-pilot" members who train... and log enough hours flying in an aircraft?

What does everyone think?

Having been a mission scanner and a qualified USAF aircrew member, I think this your question is a bit muddles, but here's my $0.02...

I've been told that Mission Scanner is a beginner-type of qualification, and that's why it doesn't have its own wings.
Now that we have additional qualifications that people are training into: Airborne photographer, ARCHER, etc, we might look at a single crew-member badge that shows qualification beyond mission scanner, but I don't think we should award wings to scanners. Let's keep the badges for people who continue to train beyond the introductory level.

And I don't think that we should be giving wings to anything other than folks who perform in-flight duties, so flight nurses and flight surgeons are out as far as CAP is concerned at this time.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I've often thought that Scanners should have at least a half-wing.  Believe it or not, there are Scanners who really aren't interested in becoming Observers.

Also, Observer should be renamed to Navigator.  "Observer" implies someone just sitting on their duff looking out the window.

These examples are from the Irish Air Corps - try and imagine them with an enamelled red-white-blue CAP insignia (what we have now but in colour; it used to be that way):

Pilot:


Mission Scanner:
(put an "S" in the centre)

Navigator:
(put an "N" in the centre)

[sardak]

Stewardesses?  Would you mind extrapolating?  About .5 seconds of googling will show that the role of flight nurses, specifically military flight nurses, is a little more involved than bringing someone peanuts.

Another .5 seconds of searching on Wikipedia finds this under stewardess:

The first female flight attendant was a 25-year-old registered nurse named Ellen Church.[4] Hired by United Airlines in 1930,[5] she also first envisioned nurses on aircraft. Other airlines followed suit, hiring nurses to serve as flight attendants

The requirement to be a registered nurse on an American airline was relaxed as more women were hired, and it disappeared almost entirely during World II...

From Wikipedia's definition of flight nurse "Flight nurses are registered nurses..." Granted, the roles and training of nurses has changed since the 1920s and 1930s, but SarDragon's reference to "olde time stewardesses" was because they were expected to perform airborne nursing duties if needed in the early days of commercial air transport.

Let's keep the badges for people who continue to train beyond the introductory level.

CAP has badges for GTM3 and IC3.

Although scanners are treated like beginners or considered to be observers-in-training, I don't think that was the intent when the scanner position was created in 1975. From the observer manual (CAPM 50-5) of that year:
"The observer course is divided into two phases. Phase I is rather abbreviated but is designed to qualify scanner candidates in a short time to become productive members of the SAR team.  Phase II (observer) is somewhat longer and more demanding. It includes some areas which may seem unnecessary to the trainee, such as knowledge of the flight computer; however, trainees should bear in mind that knowledge of these areas will be a definite asset when they begin training for mission coordinator (MC) qualification."

Mike

[Eclipse]

Although scanners are treated like beginners or considered to be observers-in-training, I don't think that was the intent when the scanner position was created in 1975. From the observer manual (CAPM 50-5) of that year:
"The observer course is divided into two phases. Phase I is rather abbreviated but is designed to qualify scanner candidates in a short time to become productive members of the SAR team.  Phase II (observer) is somewhat longer and more demanding. It includes some areas which may seem unnecessary to the trainee, such as knowledge of the flight computer; however, trainees should bear in mind that knowledge of these areas will be a definite asset when they begin training for mission coordinator (MC) qualification."

Not to mention that the majority of actual "work" of CAP aircrews is now done by scanners or "other" (SDIS, GIIEP, ARCHER).  The pilot and observer have important and defined roles, but when doing missions other than DF Search, the real work is done in the back seat.

There's no reason all aircrew should not have wings, the USAF issues wings to enlisted personnel and non-flight aircrew, so should we.
The nonsense that scanner is a stepping stone is GOB talk for "not a pilot".

[Woodsy]

I also am not a fan of the word "Observer" but I don'l really care for "Navigator" either as I think that simplifies the job duties of an Observer, there's way more to it than that.  Also that half wing looks a little weird to me... 

If scanners were to have wings, why not use the Observer wing and replace the "O" with an "S."  "AP" for Airborn Photographer, etc. 

[supertigerCH]

Good comments everyone!  Thanks for a lively discussion...


Ed Bos... your past air crew experince and well explained thoughts sounded good to me.  Although he expressed a slightly different opinion... I like the comment from Woodsy too.  (Not that the others didn't make me think also... they did and it's nice to hear everyone's opinion).

Just so everyone knows... even though I started this particular topic... I am not a scanner, or air crew member of any kind (and do not have any desire to become any of those).  As a member of CAP, however, this has crossed my mind a number of times...

[SarDragon]

Flight nurses are like the olde time original stewardesses, but CAP has nothing for them to do.

Stewardesses?  Would you mind extrapolating?  About .5 seconds of googling will show that the role of flight nurses, specifically military flight nurses, is a little more involved than bringing someone peanuts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_nurse

Am I misunderstanding you here?

Your concept of stewardess is seriously flawed.

Today's flight attendants are trained to do more than pass out peanuts. They are trained in emergency procedures related to fire, emergency landings, etc.

The original stewardesses back in the '30s were mostly all nurses. More detail here.

[68w20]

Flight nurses are like the olde time original stewardesses, but CAP has nothing for them to do.

Stewardesses?  Would you mind extrapolating?  About .5 seconds of googling will show that the role of flight nurses, specifically military flight nurses, is a little more involved than bringing someone peanuts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_nurse

Am I misunderstanding you here?

Your concept of stewardess is seriously flawed.

Today's flight attendants are trained to do more than pass out peanuts. They are trained in emergency procedures related to fire, emergency landings, etc.

The original stewardesses back in the '30s were mostly all nurses. More detail here.

Clearly my concept is flawed.  Flight attendants are highly-trained professionals that play a vital role in maintaining the effectiveness and safety of commercial air travel, and my comment trivialized that role.  I apologize, as that was certainly not my intent.

That being said, I fail to see how their job translates to this:
http://www.warisboring.com/2010/04/23/zach-in-afghanistan-the-aeromedical-evacuation-shuffle/

[SarDragon]

Today, nothing. I was just pointing out that jobs and duties have changed over the years, and that youe being way too general in your assessments.

Given that, CAP has no similar role.

I also am not a fan of the word "Observer" but I don'l really care for "Navigator" either as I think that simplifies the job duties of an Observer, there's way more to it than that.  Also that half wing looks a little weird to me... 

If scanners were to have wings, why not use the Observer wing and replace the "O" with an "S."  "AP" for Airborn Photographer, etc. 

For individual badges for the different specialties, I don't think Vanguard could sell enough to be worthwhile. Economy of scale. For a single aircrew badge covering everything not MP or MO, sure. Go for it.

Just throwing the comparison out there... because it was the easiest way for people to undertand what I'm saying.  Very true... that only CAP members who's main job is to fly on aircraft... would even have a chance of getting wings awarded someday.

For many members who fly, their aircrew job isn't their primary function. It's performing some staff job in the unit

[PHall]

Flight nurses are like the olde time original stewardesses, but CAP has nothing for them to do.

Stewardesses?  Would you mind extrapolating?  About .5 seconds of googling will show that the role of flight nurses, specifically military flight nurses, is a little more involved than bringing someone peanuts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_nurse

Am I misunderstanding you here?

Happens to be one of their duties, care and feeding of patients.

But what do I know, I just have several hundred AirEvac sorties in the logbook...

[RiverAux]

Do we really need a badge for every qualification?  Apparently CAP thinks so because we're already well on our way.

In a perfect world, I would say no badge for scanners (and thats what I've spent most of my air time doing BTW).  But, if someone that does the minimal work required to be a GT3 qualifies for the GT badge, then I see no reason for scanners to not have one. 

However, here is what I would do --- we've discussed in another thread how little the senior and master observer ratings are utilized and that very few people ever earn them.  How about incorporating them into a single system with the scanner qual and doing some renaming:

Observer badge (same qualification as current Scanner).
Senior Observer badge(same qualification as current Observer)
Master Observer badge (100 hours of flight time as Senior Observer)

That eliminates the need for coming up with a new badge and put getting Master Observer in the realm of the possible for most dedicated, long-time aircrew members. 

[Woodsy]

For individual badges for the different specialties, I don't think Vanguard could sell enough to be worthwhile. Economy of scale. For a single aircrew badge covering everything not MP or MO, sure. Go for it. 

I could live with that.