Ranger tab

[Brad]

Anyone know how this got started? I saw one of my cadets the other night at our meeting with a white-on-red "Ranger" tab above his Civil Air Patrol tape. I asked him where in 39-1 that is authorized, or where in a Wing supplement it is authorized. He told me it was a National supplement. I asked him to show it to me. Still waiting on his findings.

I just got done picking through 39-1 myself and I already know the answer. The only official device is the HMRS patch for wear on the BDU pocket. So why does this tab and its brothers and sisters continue to wander around CAP?

[lordmonar]

Brad,

Because NHQ won't stomp on PAWG or finally write a 39-1 that allows it.

[Eclipse]

There is no supplement - the only justification is 2 sentences from a 2006 NEC meeting that was never clarified or follow-up on as directed in the minutes from that meeting.

[Hawk200]

Because NHQ won't stomp on PAWG or finally write a 39-1 that allows it.

:clap:  :clap: (because we don't have a thumbs up smiley)

I honestly don't care either way. This is a prime example of the worst thing to do.

[Sapper168]

from CAP KNowledge Base:



Published 09/21/2006 07:10 AM   |    Updated 12/14/2011 06:28 AM   |    Answer ID: 1851
Q: Can a cadet that participated in Blue Beret (airshow) wear the beret at squadron meetings? Cadets came back from the national board and said there was a new policy.

A: Partially true. After discussion of several options, the August 2006 National Board approved the following: "All members that attend the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green." The board did not approve wear of these items with service uniforms.

See August 2006 National Board Minutes
AGENDA ITEM 19 Action
SUBJECT: New Business

4. ITEM: Wear of Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain Uniforms & Devices
COL FAGAN/MO MOVED AND COL LEVITCH/FL SECONDED that the National Board vote to allow wear of the Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain head gear by cadets and senior members on both the BDUs and dress uniform.
COL NELSON/CA MOVED TO AMEND AND COL OPLAND/DE SECONDED the amendment to allow wear of both activity head gear only on BDUs.
MOTION TO AMEND CARRIED
COL DAVIES/NATCAP MOVED TO AMEND AND COL FAGAN/MO SECONDED the amendment to allow wear of head gear at the discretion of wing commanders.
MOTION DID NOT PASS
MAJ GEN PINEDA RESTATED THE AMENDED MOTION: The members can wear the head gear that they get at Hawk Mountain and Blue Beret with their blue BDUs and green BDUs only.
COL LEVITCH/FL MOVED TO AMEND AND COL APPLEBAUM/PA SECONDED the amendment to allow the wear of any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head from Hawk Mountain and Blue Beret with BDUs only.
MOTION TO AMEND CARRIED
COL OPLAND/DE MOVED TO AMEND to allow wear of any distinctive head gear awarded at any national special cadet activities.
MOTION TO AMEND DIED FOR LACK OF A SECOND
ANOTHER RESTATEMENT OF THE AMENDED MOTION: All members that attend the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green.
AMENDED MOTION CARRIED
FOLLOW-ON ACTION: National Headquarters implementation of policy, notification to the field and change to appropriate CAP regulations.

[Sapper168]

Seems while they Implemented the policy(knowledgebase) and notified the field(appropriate acivity-aka Hawk), they never updated the appropriate regs(CAPM39-1).

[Eclipse]

Neither the "policy", nor the "field" have been notified in any way.

The KB is not "policy" - it is simply quoting the meeting minutes.  "HMRS" is not the "field".

Notifying the "field" would be an ICL with clarification.  Updating the policy would be an ICL or a regulation change.

All we have is a decision at a meeting (by a body which does have the authority to make this decision), and not an official mention ever
since (5-1/2 years ago).

[jimmydeanno]

Even the KB answer is wishy-washy in it's description.  It doesn't give a finite answer on what is authorized.

[Eclipse]

That's because there is no "finite answer" - the publication to the field, which never happened, should have contained the specifics, and without that,
it is amusing that people point to that one sentence as some sort of authorization or description.

Taken literally, one could assert that white laces, parade belts, grade insignia on ball caps, scarves, etc., are all "awarded" by HMRS and therefore authorized for wear.

[lordmonar]

That's because there is no "finite answer" - the publication to the field, which never happened, should have contained the specifics, and without that,
it is amusing that people point to that one sentence as some sort of authorization or description.

Taken literally, one could assert that white laces, parade belts, grade insignia on ball caps, scarves, etc., are all "awarded" by HMRS and therefore authorized for wear.

Yes....thanks for pointing that out. 

[FW]

It is a shame there was no follow up after the 2006 decision by the National Board.  The Air Force must approve the uniform items for wear on the Air Force style uniform; which includes the GBDU.  To date, there has been no answer from the Air Force (that I'm aware of).  So, except for the Blue Utility Uniform, ranger tabs are not allowed for wear.  However, no one really cares except for CT posters....

[PHall]

It is a shame there was no follow up after the 2006 decision by the National Board.  The Air Force must approve the uniform items for wear on the Air Force style uniform; which includes the GBDU.  To date, there has been no answer from the Air Force (that I'm aware of).  So, except for the Blue Utility Uniform, ranger tabs are not allowed for wear.  However, no one really cares except for CT posters....

Has there been no answer from the Air Force because CAP never submitted the request in the first place?

[lordmonar]

It is a shame there was no follow up after the 2006 decision by the National Board.  The Air Force must approve the uniform items for wear on the Air Force style uniform; which includes the GBDU.  To date, there has been no answer from the Air Force (that I'm aware of).  So, except for the Blue Utility Uniform, ranger tabs are not allowed for wear.  However, no one really cares except for CT posters....

Has there been no answer from the Air Force because CAP never submitted the request in the first place?

You know that is kind of a cop out.  CAP-USAF sits right there in the same room with the NB and they most certainly get a copy of the minutes.  Not to mention....it is not like CAP-USAF does not know what is going on. 

One of my biggest greifs with CAP-USAF and uniforms.....is their continued silence.  I wish they would just offically come out with their position and maybe weigh in on the subject. 

[AngelWings]

An ask the commander type of question!

[HGjunkie]

An ask the commander type of question!

Watch, you'll get a KB answer back.

[AngelWings]

An ask the commander type of question!

Watch, you'll get a KB answer back.

Then I will ask the president? I wouldn't know what to do, because that'd send me in a huge rage because that means that no one would know what is supposed to be happening!

[cpyahoo]

Because of -past precedence-  That's huge in the federal government and the military!  The Hawkies have been wearing those Ranger tapes since the 1950s.  For nigh upon 50 years, it's been authorized in Pennsylvania Wing and folks just assumed it was authorized for wear.  Especially when Hawk Mountain touts how many CAP National Commanders have attended Hawk Mountain.  Both Pineda and Courter were fans of Hawk Mountain.  Besides, it's not like they're actually wearing the US Army Ranger tab like a dust-up they had back in the 1980s with the old Iowa Wing Winter Rangers. 

[Ned]

One of my biggest greifs with CAP-USAF and uniforms.....is their continued silence.  I wish they would just offically come out with their position and maybe weigh in on the subject.

Not really fair.

The authority for CAP uniforms is with the CSAF, not CC, CAP-USAF. 

As a practial matter, I suspect Gen Schwartz doesn't spend a lot of his time personally worrying about the issue, but the decisions are made much higher up the food chain than the O6 commander of CAP-USAF, currently Col Gloyd.

And Col Gloyd is a solid supporter of CAP.  I'm confident that he shares his opinions and recommendations with his boss, but he is the lowest level commander in our chain. 

I do agree that it would certainly help out uniform situation if there was a particular commander or staff officer at some level with ultimate resonsibility with whom we could "negotiate'" so to speak.  Someone to whom we could address questions like "If we submit X, would you approve?" and get some sort of feedback.  We do not yet have that ability.  We simply submit our requests through CAP-USAF for their decision somewhere up the chain. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I do agree that it would certainly help out uniform situation if there was a particular commander or staff officer at some level with ultimate resonsibility with whom we could "negotiate'" so to speak.  Someone to whom we could address questions like "If we submit X, would you approve?" and get some sort of feedback.  We do not yet have that ability. 

It certainly would help.

It's no help to contact NHQ with a question and have them quote some vague answer from the KB which could have a very wide interpretation.

[Extremepredjudice]

It can't hurt? Why NOT request it?