eServices announcement about ABUs

[rustyjeeper]

of course there would. it is always a knock down drag out whenever a uniform change is desired or suggested and no matter waht happens someone will want something different within 6 months time

[titanII]

lol and then we'd argue about whether we are going to switch to ACU's, and then to Multicam or stay with UCP   

I don't think there'd be all the messing about and dithering that there has been over ABU's.

Don't underestimate your fellow CAP Talkers! 

[abdsp51]

Multi cam is is only authorized in Afghanistan and not garrison use. 

[titanII]

Multi cam is is only authorized in Afghanistan and not garrison use.

Ah well, too bad  .

[zonaman]

I have personally been treated much better by the Army, especially the Army National Guard, personnel that we have worked with than the AF.  It actually wouldn't break my heart for the Army to take us on and make us a volunteer component of Army Aviation, but that's not happening.

I agree.
In my years volunteering for CAP, when working with the Army, Army Guard, Air Guard, and heck even the Navy (very rarely) they all seemed to love CAP and respected us with the up most respect. Most of them found it fascinating that the AF has such a large Auxiliary at their disposal.

As to the Army picking up CAP and working with Army Aviation. I think that would be awesome. I also think that would NEVER happen, and we might loose a lot of members but could passably gain a whole lot more or even a whole different mentality of members (good or bad, you choose).

I would only suspect the Army would (overnight) place us in the ACU, change the name to US Army Air Auxiliary or something, and restructure the chain of command and how we operate (like eliminating the cooperate side and the TRIANGLE THINGY). The Army is much larger than the Air Force and may be able to support and/or "carry" us much easier than the Air Force can. Like I said I'm pretty sure Air Force would not let that happen and the Army may not even want us.  - - - sorry, got carried away there . . . just my opinions/thoughts.

[Ned]

I hope everyone realizes that the AF has never denied the ABU for CAP.  As in never, ever.

If for no other reason than CAP has never actually submitted a request for them.

Really.

The whole polnt of the National Uniform Committee is to develop specific proposals and suggestions for the NB, who will then determine what requests to submit to our AF colleagues.

As I have mentioned in several of the other ABU threads, I have spoken personally with the CAP-USAF commander and multiple AF general officers on this topic, and none of them has hinted, suggested, or intimated in any way that the AF does not want us in ABUs.  I'm confident that our AF partners will fairy review any uniform change requests that our NB chooses to submit.

Finally, may I respectfully suggest that the constant "the AF doesn't love us and wants to embarrass us by making us wear silly uniforms" mantra repeated so often here on CAP-Talk is not helpful to our relationship. 

And it simply isn't true, no matter how many times anonymous people on the Internet repeat it.

[SAR-EMT1]

I hope everyone realizes that the AF has never denied the ABU for CAP.  As in never, ever.

If for no other reason than CAP has never actually submitted a request for them.

Really.

The whole polnt of the National Uniform Committee is to develop specific proposals and suggestions for the NB, who will then determine what requests to submit to our AF colleagues.

As I have mentioned in several of the other ABU threads, I have spoken personally with the CAP-USAF commander and multiple AF general officers on this topic, and none of them has hinted, suggested, or intimated in any way that the AF does not want us in ABUs.  I'm confident that our AF partners will fairy review any uniform change requests that our NB chooses to submit.

Finally, may I respectfully suggest that the constant "the AF doesn't love us and wants to embarrass us by making us wear silly uniforms" mantra repeated so often here on CAP-Talk is not helpful to our relationship. 

And it simply isn't true, no matter how many times anonymous people on the Internet repeat it.

  +  1     

[Ed Bos]

I hope everyone realizes that the AF has never denied the ABU for CAP.  As in never, ever.

If for no other reason than CAP has never actually submitted a request for them.

Really.

If CAP hasn't ever requested the use of the ABU, then where on Earth did the eServices announcement come from?

Wear of the Airman's Battle Uniform (ABU)                                                                     28 Dec 2011

DoD policy prevents the transfer, donation, and sale of digitized camouflage pattern uniforms to anyone outside the USAF with very few exceptions. Unfortunately Civil Air Patrol is not one of the exceptions. This prohibition is necessary to protect the unique technologies used in developing the uniform.

The National Board has placed a hold on all uniform changes pending a review of the entire CAP uniform structure. This review is ongoing by the CAP National Uniform Committee and a draft report will be presented to the Summer National Board Meeting in Baltimore in August 2012. The presentation will be available online via web stream but all CAP members are encouraged to attend.

[Ned]

I don't understand your question.

Nothing in the release suggests to me that CAP has made a request that was denied.

I hang around at a lot of NB, NEC, and BoG meetings.  I serve on the National uniform committee.  I am deeply involved in CP and have advocated for the ABU for at least cadets to anyone who would listen to me.

And I know that CAP has not (yet) gone through the drill of putting together a package, getting NB approval, and submitting it through CAP-USAF for approval.  It simply hasn't happened. 

The NB has directed the NUC to consider and recommend (among other things) whether we should officially request ABUs.  After receiving the NUC recommendation next summer, the NB may or may not approve making the request to the AF.

It really is that simple. 

The authority to make a request to the AF for CAP ABU wear lies with the NB.  They have not yet done so.  It is their call on if and when to make such a request.

Ned Lee
CAP Enthusiast

[Fubar]

DoD policy prevents the transfer, donation, and sale of digitized camouflage pattern uniforms to anyone outside the USAF with very few exceptions. Unfortunately Civil Air Patrol is not one of the exceptions.

If we're not one of the exceptions, why bother making a formal request?

[Ed Bos]

I don't understand your question.

Nothing in the release suggests to me that CAP has made a request that was denied.

I hang around at a lot of NB, NEC, and BoG meetings.  I serve on the National uniform committee.  I am deeply involved in CP and have advocated for the ABU for at least cadets to anyone who would listen to me.

And I know that CAP has not (yet) gone through the drill of putting together a package, getting NB approval, and submitting it through CAP-USAF for approval.  It simply hasn't happened. 

The NB has directed the NUC to consider and recommend (among other things) whether we should officially request ABUs.  After receiving the NUC recommendation next summer, the NB may or may not approve making the request to the AF.

It really is that simple. 

The authority to make a request to the AF for CAP ABU wear lies with the NB.  They have not yet done so.  It is their call on if and when to make such a request.

Ned Lee
CAP Enthusiast

Col Lee,

It just seems to me, now knowing your insider's perspective, that the whole announcement on eServices seems to be a strange non-sequitur.

-Ed

[NIN]

Col Lee,

It just seems to me, now knowing your insider's perspective, that the whole announcement on eServices seems to be a strange non-sequitur.

Ed, I believe the random "non-sequitor" nature of that announcement has been the crux of much of this discussion. People 'in-the-know' are going "uh, where did that come from?" even.

[EMT-83]

Ned, what a spoil-sport you are. What will the uniform-conspiracy-theory people have to talk about now?

[lordmonar]

Ned, what a spoil-sport you are. What will the uniform-conspiracy-theory people have to talk about now?

Dude!

Have you not figured it out!  Ned is the Puppet Master Behind it all!  He is just throwing us these bones of information to sow discored into our ranks and make weaker! 

Don't fall for the ruse!

The CSU will return!

Viva La Revolution!

 

[Thom]

DoD policy prevents the transfer, donation, and sale of digitized camouflage pattern uniforms to anyone outside the USAF with very few exceptions. Unfortunately Civil Air Patrol is not one of the exceptions.

If we're not one of the exceptions, why bother making a formal request?

Because IF we ask, then it might be a very simple matter for the DoD to ADD in CAP as one of the approved exceptions.

Regulations and Laws are changed all the time to relax or tighten restrictions on this sort of thing.


Thom

[a2capt]

But you don't get it. They don't want to ask So they claim moratoriums, meetings, and more meetings need to take place first.

My real concern is Ned's comment (at least for cadets), as in we become a split identity if that's the route they take.

...and if all the scuttlebutt about the Air Force ditching ABU's in short order, then the *next* uniform will be in that same "1 per everyone else, they're reserved for BMT graduates as they're rare" for a couple years.. and then this cache of hoarded now cut loose BDU supply runs out and we hear the same thing we hear now.

Secondly, I'd sure be unhappy if they got all these "free" and the Big V gets some of it and still charges premium dollar for them. Though I don't see that happening the way the other discussions have been going.

[Ned]

My real concern is Ned's comment (at least for cadets), as in we become a split identity if that's the route they take.

...and if all the scuttlebutt about the Air Force ditching ABU's in short order, then the *next* uniform will be in that same "1 per everyone else, they're reserved for BMT graduates as they're rare" for a couple years.. and then this cache of hoarded now cut loose BDU supply runs out and we hear the same thing we hear now.

The one thing we know for certain is that uniforms change over time.

And I know for certain that the AF will at some point move away from ABUs.  Just as they have for every single other uniform they have ever worn since 1946.  And no one knows when that will be.  It could be next year.  It could be 2025.  Or even later.  But I can only agree that at some point the USAF will change their uniforms.

From the CP perspective, it is important for our cadets to be wearing an AF-style uniform.  Sure, we can live with some transitions and wear-out dates, but in the long run, we absolutely need to be in the AF uniform.

And I can certainly see why a lot of folks want us to wait for the "Uniform After ABUs" (UAABUS  ).  Hey, I pay for my uniforms just like everyone else, and there are three of us in my immediate family in CAP.  I know as well each of you that uniform changes cost members money, no matter how we try to mitigate the issue with long wear-out dates.

But no one - and I mean no one - knows how long ABUs will be worn by our AF partners.  We simply cannot afford to wait another two or three years before even submitting the request to see if the ABUs will "stick."

And as a practical matter, we are covered if the ABU is replaced soon.  Assuming the NB decides to ask, that request will not even go forward to the AF until some time next fall.  The AF has a staff study process they use to review our requests, and given that it will have to start at CAP-USAF and go through the chain from AU all the way to the office of the Chief, we can safely assume that their review will take many months, if not a year.

So if the AF decides to move away from ABUs anytime in the next 18 months to two years, we can simply withdraw our request.

So, requesting ABUs (if that is what the NB chooses to do) is a (very slow) "win-win" for our cadets.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Ned:

Sir, I know you are a CP enthusiast...but why is it so much more important if/when/ever CAP gets the ABU (and honestly, I could care less on that topic) than the rest of us old folk?

Case in point: Cadets are still allowed to wear the old Tony Nelson uniform.  We are not.  That's an old uniform the cadets get to hang on to, but what I am reading from you is that it is more important that cadets get the new (ABU or successor) uniform.

[Ned]

Ned:

Sir, I know you are a CP enthusiast...but why is it so much more important if/when/ever CAP gets the ABU (and honestly, I could care less on that topic) than the rest of us old folk?

I didn't say that, and do not hold that opinion.

I indicated that I was speaking from a CP perspective, which is where I hang my hat as a volunteer National Staff officer.  (Obviously, I represent everyone as a BoG guy, but uniforms are not a BoG issue.)

The fact that I believe it is critical for cadets to be in AF-style uniforms does not imply that I do not think it is important for seniors as well. 

And I do not think it is helpful to get into whether it is "more important/critical" for one membership class than the other.  That path leads to madness.

If you like, you can think of it as a "rising tide raises all boats" kind of situation.  CAP has never had "cadet-only" uniforms, and there is no support in the NUC, NB, or NEC to change that situation.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I didn't say that, and do not hold that opinion.

Just asking for clarification, based on my own personal face-to-face interaction with some AF personnel, including one State Director, that openly have stated that CP is the be-all and end-all for CAP, and we oldsters are there just to make sure they get their Mitchell Award so they can get their E-3.

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth.  Honestly.