eServices announcement about ABUs

[RiverAux]

Has anyone thought how the Air Force would feel to see us all in a relatively new combat uniform?

Gee, they seemed to have managed to live with it for 70 years....

[SarDragon]

But that has already been address with the requirment to wear a High Vis vest......now if we can only get them to wear the stupid thing over their back packs and field gear! 

That's my point, a vest is just plain less effective than a high-vis uniform because it goes over, under, and around different parts of equipment.

Even if we wore orange jump suits as our uniforms....they would still be under all our gear and equipment.  Same problem...same solution....wear the vest over your equipment.

Not true. Very little of the gear that we wear covers sleeves or legs. An orange shirt, or jumpsuit as you mention, will show up very well when there is a backpack or vest covering the torso.

[PHall]

If you all want to wear the Air Force uniform, TAKE THE OATH.

Pretty bold statement for somebody who hasn't served, yet.

Why not save that fire and vinegar for field training. Where it might just come in handy.


Oh, and make sure you wear MY uniform correctly.

[SABRE17]

Pretty bold statement for somebody who hasn't served, yet.

Hence why I have no intention of wearing the ABU in any realm of CAP. If I could Id wear BDU's in ROTC.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

If you all want to wear the Air Force uniform, TAKE THE OATH.

A lot of us have.

It doesn't seem right to have 12 year old's running around in ANY USAF uniform.

Hmmm...I'm betting you'd have a different take on that had you been a cadet at 12.

And if we switch to ABU's the only thing differentiating us from USAF would be the name tape and service tape, plus grade insignia.

Non-concur.  There won't be CAP members packing hardware like this...



...or at least there shouldn't be.

Has anyone thought how the Air Force would feel to see us all in a relatively new combat uniform?

I don't think the Air Force feels much of anything about us, and hasn't for quite a few years.

And in terms of our MISSION ABU's will have little effect on accomplishing it.

You are correct.  Most of the time I wear BBDU's or the blue utility jumpsuit when I have to get dirty.  However, there is a little matter of esprit de corps, and the fact that many of us do cherish our connections to the AF, no matter how increasingly-tenuous they may or may not be.

BDU's are sustainable for several more years in terms of supply stocks. there are still some units sitting on stockpiles of them,

Not sure where you get your information.  My unit meets on an ANG installation that also has some AFRES personnel, and I couldn't tell you when the last time was I saw any of them in BDU's.  One of our members is also in the ANG, and he told me that BDU's are "history."  I couldn't even tell you when the last time was I saw them in the BX MCSS.

I guarantee there will be hundreds fed through a shredder by the time 2012 comes around.

If that's the case, then it will just be another colossal example of DoD wastefulness...but I don't see Propper, Tru-Spec, etc. ceasing to manufacture them.

[Al Sayre]

If you all want to wear the Air Force uniform, TAKE THE OATH.

Before you start telling people to "TAKE THE OATH", perhaps you should review this topic: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=9288.0

Many of us were serving in uniform before you were a gleam in your daddy's eye, and find that kind of remark a bit offensive.

[RADIOMAN015]

Oh boy, this justifies an answer in red, pure and simple :angel:

It is not that we would not have an outstanding program.....it is that we would not have any cadets who would want to join.

You are looking at this issue as an adult...not as a 12 year old.....and they have a whole different outlook on things.

Yes they want to play army or air force, and that is fine.  Ideally we can keep costs down, by making use of ANY (type/style) free uniforms provided to us by the Air Force.  IF you live in FL you likely won't need the same type of outer wear protection as in NH

Yes you are correct that any sort of cammo is bad for GSAR as far as visibility goes....but that also goes for BBDU's.
But that has already been address with the requirment to wear a High Vis vest......now if we can only get them to wear the stupid thing over their back packs and field gear! 
Orange vests will kind of work.  Ideally there's a good contrast with the pants and also headgear with whatever wooded area they are in

The cotton blend mix of our BDU's is just fine!  Really!  The military has been using it for years...and still uses it with out any problems!
Yes wool and synthetic fibers are better....but remember that 100% cotton kills.....cotton blends not so much!
Hmm, EVERY expert I know (CAP members with 20+ years of back packing backwoods hiking/camping experience, BEFORE they ever set foot into CAP), tell me that those BDU's worn as ground team members, heading into wooded winter missions will result in cold injuries and even potential death to members.  None would take ANY member out into the woods in the winter or even other times with low temperatures with just that uniform (including field jacket).  It's just pure FANTASY to believe that most ground teams have ANY winter capability in CAP.       

Finally you don't understand the ORM process.

Yes the regulations do not tell you how to be safe, how to mitigate hazards, or dictate specific safety issues.  It is designed that way.  The Safety regs would be 1000 pages long and would be too cumberson to do anything.  The whole point of ORM is for you the operator to identify the hazards.....find the appropriate mitigation for your situation and apply it.....with out some bozo in Alabama telling you that need to carry sand and a snow shovel in Nevada so you can dig out your CAP Van.
Yes, and it going to be a "no go" for the vast majority of ground teams in cold weather areas.  My experts tell me you are looking at $300+ to equip oneself for winter weather hiking/camping.   Add to CAP not having snowmobiles, etc and you have a disaster brewing.   

And my bottom line.....we are the USAF Auxillary......we should be in the USAF uniform.
Well the Air Force in their implementing regulation, see us as the CIVILIAN Auxiliary of the USAF, so they could approve a different uniform for SAR/Disaster support and another uniform for squadron area training.

BTW IF we can offer cadets free ABU's than I personally have nothing against that issue.  HOWEVER, I've heard that we are getting lots of BDU's, so that may very well be the uniform for awhile.

RM

[HGjunkie]

Yes they want to play army or air force, and that is fine.  Ideally we can keep costs down, by making use of ANY (type/style) free uniforms provided to us by the Air Force.  IF you live in FL you likely won't need the same type of outer wear protection as in NH

I stopped reading there. In certain parts of Florida it can get very cold during the winter.


Also, yada yada RM wants us all in red uniforms etc...

[lordmonar]

But that has already been address with the requirment to wear a High Vis vest......now if we can only get them to wear the stupid thing over their back packs and field gear! 

That's my point, a vest is just plain less effective than a high-vis uniform because it goes over, under, and around different parts of equipment.

Even if we wore orange jump suits as our uniforms....they would still be under all our gear and equipment.  Same problem...same solution....wear the vest over your equipment.

Not true. Very little of the gear that we wear covers sleeves or legs. An orange shirt, or jumpsuit as you mention, will show up very well when there is a backpack or vest covering the torso.

Right up until I put my ski jacket or by BDU gortex over my orange jump suit! 

Visibility in the field is not the primary concern in our field uniform IMHO.  There are several easy fixes for it....that are already in place.

[lordmonar]

Hmm, EVERY expert I know (CAP members with 20+ years of back packing backwoods hiking/camping experience, BEFORE they ever set foot into CAP), tell me that those BDU's worn as ground team members, heading into wooded winter missions will result in cold injuries and even potential death to members.  None would take ANY member out into the woods in the winter or even other times with low temperatures with just that uniform (including field jacket).  It's just pure FANTASY to believe that most ground teams have ANY winter capability in CAP.

Well you know experts are a dime a dozens....I got more then 40 years of back packing, hiking and camping experince.....all seasons including norther tier mountain camping and hiking......so there you go.   

Now let's put some statistics where your mouth is.  CAP has been doing winter operations for many many years.  Hawk Mountain runs a winter session every year.  Strange that they have not had to call those off because of all the cold injuries they are having while wearing the BDUs.
Lots of Northern Tier Wings (MI, WI, MA, ND, SD, ID) hold winter activities....and I don't see a lot of safety reports from NHQ about the dangers of BDU's and winter weather.

If BDU and ABU's are so deadly.....do you think the military would be using them in their northern tier bases?  At their winter Surivival Couse in Oregon? 

Is poly cotton the best fabric for cold weather work?  No of course not.  But it is not a fair assessment to say that we are complete failures because of our BDU's. 

Also IIRC there was an article about a successful GSAR operation just last winter....by CAP members in BDUs! 

And you would think that AKWG would have clued us into this danger lurking in our midsts all these years.

But I know where you are comming from....any excuse to get us out of military uniforms.....

[SarDragon]

But that has already been address with the requirment to wear a High Vis vest......now if we can only get them to wear the stupid thing over their back packs and field gear! 

That's my point, a vest is just plain less effective than a high-vis uniform because it goes over, under, and around different parts of equipment.

Even if we wore orange jump suits as our uniforms....they would still be under all our gear and equipment.  Same problem...same solution....wear the vest over your equipment.

Not true. Very little of the gear that we wear covers sleeves or legs. An orange shirt, or jumpsuit as you mention, will show up very well when there is a backpack or vest covering the torso.

Right up until I put my ski jacket or by BDU gortex over my orange jump suit! 

Visibility in the field is not the primary concern in our field uniform IMHO.  There are several easy fixes for it....that are already in place.

Gall's has some great hi-vis outer wear.

[Ed Bos]

If BDU and ABU's are so deadly.....do you think the military would be using them in their northern tier bases?  At their winter Surivival Couse in Oregon?

First of all, relax!  Second of all, guess which career field doesn't wear standard issue uniforms at "their winter Survival Course in Oregon?"

Is poly cotton the best fabric for cold weather work?  No of course not.  But it is not a fair assessment to say that we are complete failures because of our BDU's. 

Nobody said anything about being complete failures.

And you would think that AKWG would have clued us into this danger lurking in our midsts all these years.

I am. Right now.

Come up for the ESSE next year (http://www.facebook.com/CAP.ESSE) and we can talk ALLLLL about it!

Cheers!

-Ed

EDWARD A. BOS, Maj, CAP
Chairman
Anchorage Bowl GSAR Group
http://anchoragegsar.wordpress.com

[Ed Bos]

Gall's has some great hi-vis outer wear.

That's good stuff. I'm partial to Blaze Orange with retro-reflective trim, vs the chartreuse green with reflective trim. This comes from some test photos I've seen, taken from the air & looking at groups in the two different colors in similar environments. In nearly every setting, the orange stood out much better than the green.

[SABRE17]

Take the Oath

I'm referencing the cadets who want to run around and play Air Force with little sense of what it actually takes to serve.
I'm not implying that I know that honor.

Have we thought about the individual cost to members to make the switch to ABU's?
$40 - Blouse
$40 - pants
$8  - T-shirt
$10 - Cover
$9 - belt
$100-150 - boots
$10 - socks

total cost: $210-260
double that to be equipped for an NCSA

Add to that the unit, wing, and flag patches that wont be used.

[RiverAux]

Cost probably won't be much of a factor since it is extremely likely that there will be a long phase out period.  New folks won't notice much of a difference and the folks that have been in for a while will either have quit or need a new uniform anyway by the time they're required.  In the meantime they could still wear BDUs.

[RiverAux]

Why did I let myself get sucked back into a thread rehashing the same exact things covered in this thread that was active as of just a few weeks ago?
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13035.0

Someone closing in on 10K posts should know better.

[arajca]

Why did I let myself get sucked back into a thread rehashing the same exact things covered in this thread that was active as of just a few weeks ago?
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13035.0

Someone closing in on 10K posts should know better.

You're a glutton for punishment?

[AngelWings]

If people are willing to pay for a new uniform that is atleast $200, than why stop them? If you have cadets running around just trying to play USAF, kick them out until they mature and are willing to do something, or let them burn out within a year. It is pretty simple really. I think some people are not appreciating the honor of being in the USAF Aux, which implies we are in one shape or another, a part of the USAF family. I am proud to tie up my put on my uniforms and represent. If the USAF was worried about kids acting like them, then the cadet programs would not exsist. When we don our uniforms, we are to act just as proffesional has any airman should, to adhere to our core values, to be the example for people looking in, and to be leaders. 

[titanII]

$40 - Blouse
$40 - pants
$8  - T-shirt
$10 - Cover
$9 - belt
$100-150 - boots
$10 - socks

total cost: $210-260
double that to be equipped for an NCSA

One wouldn't need to double the total to be equipped for an NCSA. I mean, who needs two covers, two belts, and two pairs of boots  .
Based on your approximation, two sets of ABU's would cost about $100 more, for another blouse, pair of pants, t-shirt, and socks. 

[lordmonar]

If people are willing to pay for a new uniform that is atleast $200, than why stop them? If you have cadets running around just trying to play USAF, kick them out until they mature and are willing to do something, or let them burn out within a year. It is pretty simple really. I think some people are not appreciating the honor of being in the USAF Aux, which implies we are in one shape or another, a part of the USAF family. I am proud to tie up my put on my uniforms and represent. If the USAF was worried about kids acting like them, then the cadet programs would not exsist. When we don our uniforms, we are to act just as proffesional has any airman should, to adhere to our core values, to be the example for people looking in, and to be leaders.

You miss the point.

"playing USAF" is the hook.
Twelve year olds do not join CAP to become productive leaders and good citizens.  That is why us CP types want them to join.
We hook them with the uniform and the fun stuff....we let them run around the woods doing ES stuff, march up and down the square, shoot rockets off....and in the mean time we are actually training them to be leaders and citizens.

I don't think it is the cadets who the USAF is worried about.  It is the guys wearing officer ranks that give the USAF coniptions.

Also please note   "act just as proffesional has (sic) any airman"......have you supervised airman lately?