eServices announcement about ABUs

[lordmonar]

It is not that we would not have an outstanding program.....it is that we would not have any cadets who would want to join.

You are looking at this issue as an adult...not as a 12 year old.....and they have a whole different outlook on things.

Yes you are correct that any sort of cammo is bad for GSAR as far as visibility goes....but that also goes for BBDU's.
But that has already been address with the requirment to wear a High Vis vest......now if we can only get them to wear the stupid thing over their back packs and field gear! 

The cotton blend mix of our BDU's is just fine!  Really!  The military has been using it for years...and still uses it with out any problems!
Yes wool and synthetic fibers are better....but remember that 100% cotton kills.....cotton blends not so much!

Finally you don't understand the ORM process.

Yes the regulations do not tell you how to be safe, how to mitigate hazards, or dictate specific safety issues.  It is designed that way.  The Safety regs would be 1000 pages long and would be too cumberson to do anything.  The whole point of ORM is for you the operator to identify the hazards.....find the appropriate mitigation for your situation and apply it.....with out some bozo in Alabama telling you that need to carry sand and a snow shovel in Nevada so you can dig out your CAP Van.

And my bottom line.....we are the USAF Auxillary......we should be in the USAF uniform.

[AngelWings]

Same here. A fellow MAWG cadet knows that blues stink when it gets cold up here 

brrrr... I was in blues a few weeks ago, and man...

Do you suffer from sail hat like I do? Has in, the flight cap trying to fly 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

And my bottom line.....we are the USAF Auxillary......we should be in the USAF uniform.

Full agreement...if only the USAF would take a page from the CGAUX' book on that, and if only we didn't have an active section of our membership pushing for exactly the opposite.

[FARRIER]

"I am concerned that as a primary SAR agency..."

Cadets can spend their entire time in CAP and not work within SAR. SAR biased members can forget that sometimes, my years of observation.

Respectfully,

[titanII]

Do you suffer from sail hat like I do? Has in, the flight cap trying to fly 

Lol no. My flight cap fits pretty well, especially with my really short hair, so no, not really. But I have seen that problem with other cadets...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

SAR biased members can forget that sometimes, my years of observation.

An essential truth about CAP that needs to be repeated...often.

Too many see us as just a flying ES agency.

My unit has several cadets with GT quals, a couple with a Find ribbon, a few graduates of SAR Academy, and many others who have and probably never will get into SAR/ES.

[Ned]

[T]he point I'm trying to make clear rests on 3 arguments/hypotheses:

1) From what I understand, the 60 years of wearing a USAF style uniform has put CAP in a position to wear obsolete uniforms during several uniform transitions on the part of the USAF. This tells me that we don't always wear the "same" uniform as our sponsoring service. Am I mistaken in this?

I think so.

CAP has indeed worn uniforms that the USAF considers "obsolete," but usually as part of a transition period that allows our members the ability to continue to wear the obsolete uniforms for a period of years after the USAF sunset date.  This is a Good Thing for our members because it usually allows them to get the full "wear value" from their uniform purchase dollars.

But in the last two major uniform transitions I have personally experienced (khaki shade 1505 to light blue shirts and green fatigues to BDU) there was no significant lag period where members could not wear the current AF-style uniforms if they wanted.

(Interestingly, during the fatigue to BDU transition, many of the same concerns we hear about a potential ABU transition were heard loudly and often: "The new BDUs are too expensive, especially for cadets!"  "We don't need camoflauge to do _______!" etc.  And then, as now, CP leaders predicted that the cadets would voluntarily transition early and often and with great enthusiasm.)

2) We would not abandon our ties to the USAF in any meaningful way if we transitioned to a single, uniquely-CAP, field uniform, especially considering that cadets can and should wear the USAF style service uniform.

Yeah, you keep saying that.  But you are the one proposing a significant change to a successful program, and I am hoping that you can support this argument with something more than a sincere expression of personal opinion.

My position ("CAP cadets wear USAF style uniforms whenever possible") has been our policy for over 60 years and has a proven record of success.

3) Because the 39-1 states that the minimum uniform is a service one, there must be no compelling reason that any unit must wear the BDUs...

I don't follow you here.  I can only agree that the 39-1 does prescribe such a minimum uniform, but I cannot agree that "there must be no compelling reason that any unit must wear the BDUs."  The latter seems logically unrelated to the former.

Arguably a cadet could never leave the classroom or go to the field and achieve a  successful cadet career.  Indeed, we undoubtedly number of disabled cadets who benefit from the program despite such limitations.

But as a practical matter, every cadet participates in things like field exercises, encampments, and NCSAs where a field uniform is required.  And for over 60 years it has been invariably a USAF-style field uniform.

I am saying that the privilege of wearing a different, and uniquely CAP field uniform can be just as effective as wearing a USAF-style CAP field uniform.

Once again, sincere statement of personal opinion noted. 

I do not recall having ever relied on the color of any uniform to determine the lessons at hand, either working specifically with the cadet program, or emergency services activities, and I truly believe that you have not either.

Nice try, but we both know that we are not talking about the "color" of the uniform.  We are talking about whether it is a version of a current USAF uniform, regardless of the color.

And yes, I have led CD sessions where we talk about the significance of the USAF-style uniform, and the privilege extended to CAP of wearing it.  How it creates expectations on the part of both the public, local stakeholders, and our AF colleagues.  And how important it is for each of us - from the youngest cadet to the oldest senior - to prepare ourselves and to act and behave accordingly. 

I have done my fair share of "CAP active-duty" for things like earthquakes and disaster relief, and found that wearing a current AF-style uniform in the field enhanced our ability to work effectively with local agencies and DoD partners.  Because if was an AF-style uniform, not despite it.   But reading CT, I understand that not everyone shares that particular experience.

With your question regarding the dangers of wearing a cotton camouflage uniform, I have two points:

1)   If you'll accept an anecdote, I have personally had a difficult time responding to multiple urgent situations in the field, where I could not easily locate a cadet during training, partially because they were difficult to see in camouflage. The high-visibility of uniforms worn by other SAR agencies would have been much more helpful in those situations, as they are even easier to see when obscured by equipment and gear, than the ANSI II vests called for in the current guidance.

Note: Interestingly, though not authorized in the 39-1, "safety apparel" is authorized with corporate uniforms in CAPR 62-1, but prohibited with the BDUs in the same paragraph (Para 7-c).

I certainly can't disagree with the basic premise that camoflauge uniforms can be harder to see in the woods than brightly-colored uniforms.  And sometimes it can certainly be important to be able to find members quickly and easily.

But we don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.  That's why we have an ORM process.  If a given situation dictates, leaders can mandate high-visibility vests, chemlights, or whatever is necessary to reduce risk to our members consistent with accomplishing the mission.

2)   Even more than the color of our field uniforms, I am concerned that as a primary SAR agency, we continue to outfit ourselves (and our young cadets!) in cotton to conduct outdoor operations. A Google search of the terms "cotton" and "hypothermia" returns several hundred thousand websites, many of which repeat the mantra, "cotton kills."

Like others have posted, I need to non-concur with this point.  As infantry officer, I certainly wore my Army BDUs in some very hot, very cold, and very wet situations for extended periods of time.  And we managed to make it work just fine.

Thanks for asking some good questions to guide my response back to the heart of the matter, and I hope I made myself clear in my attempt to communicate these thoughts.

Back at you.  I appreciate your substantial ES experience and qualifications, and I sincerely thank you for the work you do supporting our cadet program.

[ZigZag911]

Do camouflage uniforms attract young people to the cadet program>  Granted.

If we got rid of them overnight would it be a problem?  Probably.

Would some cadets (and seniors) go away if we lost or gave up USAF BDUs?
Undoubtedly.

Are we selling our cadets short by saying that we'd lose a majority of them? I think so.

Would CAP be better off without members (cadet or senior) whose main reason for belonging is to wear a military uniform?  I believe so.

Please don't misunderstand me: I favor the USAF service dress for all who are permitted to wear it, I am not suggesting distancing ourselves from the Air Force.

My sole point is that, as BDUs gradually go away, and with it appearing that we won't have the use of ABUs, then it's time to transition everyone to a single work/field uniform.

With phaseout dates and such, it almost certainly would not have a direct impact on cadet membership or recruiting.

The average cadet membership tenure is somewhere in the vicinity of 2 to 2.5 years; by the time any change came into play, we'd have a whole 'generation' of cadets who'd view BBDUs as "the way it has always been".

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

We seem to have got into the "groove" of talking about just cadets wearing the BDU's and USAF-type uniforms in general.

Is it not just as important for seniors to be able to continue to wear those uniforms?

Not all of us are of the mindset of so many on CT who just think all we need are a polo shirt and a set of grey pants.

[lordmonar]

The only problem with talking about Seniors is USAF's hang up with the fat and fuzzies/those who decide not to play.

IMHO.....I would like to see all the corporates (exept the polo combo...which should be changed to the polo and Kakhi to match the USAF's polo combo)....go away.

If the USAF can't get over those who don't match USAF image standards wearing their uniform....then I would rather CAP adopt one uniform for cadets and one for seniors.

That way there is more uniformity and the glarring difference between the two uniforms is easily explain....(they are cadets and we are senior members), instead of the current explanation (he does not meet USAF standards or he just does not want to wear the USAF uniforms) which lead to the second class stigma of the corporate uniforms.

But yes.....USAF style uniforms are importanat to senior members....with a lot of people on CT and CS who have said that they would quit if they could not wear the USAF uniform.....however IMHO I don't think that the impact of losing the USAF unifroms would affect membership numbers with seniors as much it does for cadets.

On the imporatance of USAF unifroms is that...even with all the guys who don't read the manual, don't care what the manuals says, or have been mis-informed by their leadership......loosing the USAF uniforms will increase the amount of violations......most CAP members know how imporatant the USAF uniform is the USAF's image and they take the pride and time to do it right.  With BBDU's and the white and greys....I don't see the same level of attention to detail compared to the USAF unifroms.  YMMV.

[RiverAux]

Would CAP be better off without members (cadet or senior) whose main reason for belonging is to wear a military uniform?  I believe so.

I think the seniors would be lost not because they couldn't wear a military uniform, but primarily because of the symbolism behind that loss.  To me it would be a statement that the AF doesn't want to be associated with CAP and since I am in CAP primarily to support the AF in my own small way, it would be saying to me that my services are no longer wanted. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I think the seniors would be lost not because they couldn't wear a military uniform, but primarily because of the symbolism behind that loss.  To me it would be a statement that the AF doesn't want to be associated with CAP and since I am in CAP primarily to support the AF in my own small way, it would be saying to me that my services are no longer wanted.

Quite well said.

The AF has kept us at arm's length for about 20 years and that would just be the final break.

Edited to fix my screwup in quote box.

[Ed Bos]

Yes you are correct that any sort of cammo is bad for GSAR as far as visibility goes....but that also goes for BBDU's.

I didn't say anything otherwise, I totally agree with that statement. I don't think the current BBDU is the answer either, but that's another can of worms.

But that has already been address with the requirment to wear a High Vis vest......now if we can only get them to wear the stupid thing over their back packs and field gear! 

That's my point, a vest is just plain less effective than a high-vis uniform because it goes over, under, and around different parts of equipment.

The cotton blend mix of our BDU's is just fine!  Really!  The military has been using it for years...and still uses it with out any problems!
Yes wool and synthetic fibers are better....but remember that 100% cotton kills.....cotton blends not so much!

I'm in the service too, and while I only have half the number of years in that many of the folks on here do, I've had some unique experiences and some perspectives that tell me A) there are some problems, and B) the military accepts certain risks as trade offs for other things, and has other ways to mitigate them (without going too far in the weeds, they accept less effective clothing as a trade off for outfitting thousands upon thousands of people, and they issue additional gear as required).

Finally you don't understand the ORM process.

I understand ORM just fine. The "safety culture" that CAP is trying to institute is haphazard, and the "safety regulations" focus on things that are not proactively safety related, they're how to react to an accident or incident.

And my bottom line.....we are the USAF Auxillary......we should be in the USAF uniform.

Yes, Ned and you have asserted that's a requirement as you see it. I think we can do better.

Cadets can spend their entire time in CAP and not work within SAR. SAR biased members can forget that sometimes, my years of observation.

That's true, but that is irrelevant to the fact that we have a real-world emergency services mission totally outside of the somewhat self-contained-world of the cadet program.

While the uniform changes I would like to see would impact a portion the cadet program, I am trying to fix something that I'm surprised others don't see as a problem.

[FARRIER]

Cadets can spend their entire time in CAP and not work within SAR. SAR biased members can forget that sometimes, my years of observation.

That's true, but that is irrelevant to the fact that we have a real-world emergency services mission totally outside of the somewhat self-contained-world of the cadet program.

While the uniform changes I would like to see would impact a portion the cadet program, I am trying to fix something that I'm surprised others don't see as a problem.

Myself a former Cadet and at one point a Cadet Programs Officer, and others like myself in this thread, your fix to one problem will most certainty cause harm to the cadet programs. Also, as Col. Lee said ,cadets, if they have the income source, will be the first to purchase the latest authorized version. I remember when, then called the Class B's, the short sleeve blue shirt didn't have the epaulettes. As soon as we were authorized to wear the new shirts with the epaulettes, I went down the AAFES and bought one.

Ed, if you are worried about a ground team uniform, advocate for something similar to California Wing is doing now. Back in the 1980's, the Ground Teams in Colorado wore orange shirts and wool pants, footwear to meet the conditions. Since the conversation initially focused on the cadets, those that didn't participate in Ground SAR had the then green utility uniforms for normal cadet activities.

There is a middle ground option.

[lordmonar]

But that has already been address with the requirment to wear a High Vis vest......now if we can only get them to wear the stupid thing over their back packs and field gear! 

That's my point, a vest is just plain less effective than a high-vis uniform because it goes over, under, and around different parts of equipment.

Even if we wore orange jump suits as our uniforms....they would still be under all our gear and equipment.  Same problem...same solution....wear the vest over your equipment.

[Ed Bos]

Even if we wore orange jump suits as our uniforms....they would still be under all our gear and equipment.  Same problem...same solution....wear the vest over your equipment.

Respectfully disagree, but that's for another thread

There is a middle ground option.

One of the members of the GSAR group I work with in AK is from COWG, BITD. His insights have shaped my opinions a great deal. I'm sure a middle ground solution is where we'll end up, and there's nothing wrong with compromise.

I'm just not particularly keen on folks touting the ABU as the (potentially) newest and greatest CAP uniform, since when it was designed there was absolutely no thought about how to maximize the design for our little corner of the world.

[RiverAux]

I'm just not particularly keen on folks touting the ABU as the (potentially) newest and greatest CAP uniform,

I doubt there is a single person that would like to see CAP in ABUs because they think it is a better uniform than BDUs.  From a practical point of view it will probably be about the useful as the BDU or any other uniform we could choose.

It is all about our actual and perceived relationship to the Air Force. 

[lordmonar]

Having worn OD's, BDU's and ABU's in my time in the USAF......it is six of one/half dozen of the other.

OD's were the most comfortable and cheapest......but I converted to BDU's as soon as I could because of the "warrior" ethos the USAF was trying to sell at the time.

BDU's to ABU's........my first set of ABU's were hotter the BDU's due to the map pocket in the jacket....which I cut out of my second set.  I love the wash and wear and the lack of unit patches.  The no polish boots also are a plus.

But as RiverAux said.....if the USAF started wearing Neon Green Chainmail and Blue TuTus......I would still advocate that CAP transition to them....because we are their Auxillary and should look like them...(within reason  ).

Now.....if you are proposing an ES GSAR specific uniforms that is professional looking, low cost, and adds value to the mission (higher vis, safer fabric, built in ELT)...I am all ears.   The CAWG ES uniform is an example of that (although I think like the ABU announcement in EServices....the justification was a little weak.)

[AngelWings]

Having worn OD's, BDU's and ABU's in my time in the USAF......it is six of one/half dozen of the other.

OD's were the most comfortable and cheapest......but I converted to BDU's as soon as I could because of the "warrior" ethos the USAF was trying to sell at the time.

BDU's to ABU's........my first set of ABU's were hotter the BDU's due to the map pocket in the jacket....which I cut out of my second set.  I love the wash and wear and the lack of unit patches.  The no polish boots also are a plus.

But as RiverAux said.....if the USAF started wearing Neon Green Chainmail and Blue TuTus......I would still advocate that CAP transition to them....because we are their Auxillary and should look like them...(within reason  ).

Now.....if you are proposing an ES GSAR specific uniforms that is professional looking, low cost, and adds value to the mission (higher vis, safer fabric, built in ELT)...I am all ears.   The CAWG ES uniform is an example of that (although I think like the ABU announcement in EServices....the justification was a little weak.)

Very well put.  :clap:

[SABRE17]

If you all want to wear the Air Force uniform, TAKE THE OATH.

It gets pretty annoying hearing cadets talking about how badly they want to wear ABU's, and "look" like the REAL Air Force.
I'm in AFROTC right now, and even I can life with the fact that I wont wear until second semester starts up. ( this is my first year so I only get to wear the Short Sleve Blue's uniform as a freshman until second semester)

It doesn't seem right to have 12 year old's running around in ANY USAF uniform. And if we switch to ABU's the only thing differentiating us from USAF would be the name tape and service tape, plus grade insignia.


Has anyone thought how the Air Force would feel to see us all in a relatively new combat uniform? We are still a different organization with a different command structure, not to mention a different mission. And in terms of our MISSION ABU's will have little effect on accomplishing it.

BDU's are sustainable for several more years in terms of supply stocks. there are still some units sitting on stockpiles of them, I guarantee there will be hundreds fed through a shredder by the time 2012 comes around.