eServices announcement about ABUs

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Also, yada yada RM wants us all in red uniforms etc...

Yes...to look like a cross between the Salvation Army and the Red Cross.

[RADIOMAN015]

$40 - Blouse
$40 - pants
$8  - T-shirt
$10 - Cover
$9 - belt
$100-150 - boots
$10 - socks

total cost: $210-260
double that to be equipped for an NCSA

One wouldn't need to double the total to be equipped for an NCSA. I mean, who needs two covers, two belts, and two pairs of boots  .
Based on your approximation, two sets of ABU's would cost about $100 more, for another blouse, pair of pants, t-shirt, and socks. 

Remember it isn't normally 70 degree in the Great State & Wing of Massachusetts in January 2011, so you are also going to have to buy an outer coat.   The all purpose weather one is about $150.00, and the fleece is around $70.00.  So that will add another $220.00.  That's a lot of lawns cutting & driveways/side walks snow shoveling to do
RM

[ZigZag911]

While "playing Air Force" may be the 'hook' for most cadets and some seniors, it is, to be brutally honest, false advertising!

Most of the Air Force doesn't even know we exist.

Many of those that do wish:

1) that there was no CAP

OR

2) that none of us wore USAF type uniforms

OR

3) that only cadets wore USAF type uniforms, sort of AFJROTC where the schools don't sponsor the program

Now, we shouldn't feel bad about this, because by and large the Air Force leadership (primarily 'rated' officers) feels inordinately superior to mere mortals lacking silver wings...even those holding the same or higher grade in the Air Force itself!

Deny it all you wish; I've observed these folks for 40 plus years...I don't question their patriotism, I appreciate their service and dedication -- but that is the reality of the social dynamic with the organization.

[lordmonar]

$40 - Blouse
$40 - pants
$8  - T-shirt
$10 - Cover
$9 - belt
$100-150 - boots
$10 - socks

total cost: $210-260
double that to be equipped for an NCSA

One wouldn't need to double the total to be equipped for an NCSA. I mean, who needs two covers, two belts, and two pairs of boots  .
Based on your approximation, two sets of ABU's would cost about $100 more, for another blouse, pair of pants, t-shirt, and socks. 

Remember it isn't normally 70 degree in the Great State & Wing of Massachusetts in January 2011, so you are also going to have to buy an outer coat.   The all purpose weather one is about $150.00, and the fleece is around $70.00.  So that will add another $220.00.  That's a lot of lawns cutting & driveways/side walks snow shoveling to do
RM

Well...even if we go comprable grade civilian wear....you are going to have to pay the same....so this argument is a little weak.

[lordmonar]

While "playing Air Force" may be the 'hook' for most cadets and some seniors, it is, to be brutally honest, false advertising!

Most of the Air Force doesn't even know we exist.

Many of those that do wish:

1) that there was no CAP

OR

2) that none of us wore USAF type uniforms

OR

3) that only cadets wore USAF type uniforms, sort of AFJROTC where the schools don't sponsor the program

Now, we shouldn't feel bad about this, because by and large the Air Force leadership (primarily 'rated' officers) feels inordinately superior to mere mortals lacking silver wings...even those holding the same or higher grade in the Air Force itself!

Deny it all you wish; I've observed these folks for 40 plus years...I don't question their patriotism, I appreciate their service and dedication -- but that is the reality of the social dynamic with the organization.

Got to disagree on all three of your points.

While there are some in the USAF who don't want us/don't want us to wear uniforms/only want cadets to wear the uniform......I have to say that those are far and few between compared to the absolute majority of those AD USAF types that know we exists...who support us 100% and wonder why we wear gray ranks and blue name tapes.

[abdsp51]

While it's easy to point the finger at someone else and complain sometimes one needs to remember why things were done in the first place. When I joined back in 94 it was blue plates and berry boards for SM then went to the greys.  I wore pin on rank and insignia because it was easier to swap out, when I changed units I sewed my rank and insignia on.  I see a lot of the AF doesn't know about us or doesn't want us etc. But how much of this is directly the AFs doing?  Any recall Cal Worthington especially those here in CA?  He sold himself to the public and became a household name, that may be what CAP has to do sell itself.  I know some of the members who have been around for awhile know what led to the berry boards coming and etc.  The AF has said no to ABUs for the time being however that may change in the future.  While I do not agree with the swap from BDUs to ABUs it was told to us that it happened because the Army owned the rights to the woodland pattern, how much of that is truth idk but the change happened. 

[Hawk200]

I don't think it is the cadets who the USAF is worried about.  It is the guys wearing officer ranks that give the USAF coniptions.

Agreed. Even ones wearing the alternates that many members consider second class uniforms don't conduct or dress themselves in a manner considered professional. That needs work. I think a lot of that would be served with better training in the beginning. Don't let the professionalism develop, train for it from the beginning.

Also please note   "act just as proffesional has (sic) any airman"......have you supervised airman lately? 

Or soldiers, or junior enlisted Navy, or new Marines, or new Coasties (don't know what they call their newbies.

I would say that many of my cadets act more mature than a lot of the soldiers I supervise.

[titanII]

Remember it isn't normally 70 degree in the Great State & Wing of Massachusetts in January 2011, so you are also going to have to buy an outer coat.   The all purpose weather one is about $150.00, and the fleece is around $70.00.  So that will add another $220.00.  That's a lot of lawns cutting & driveways/side walks snow shoveling to do
RM

Granted, if one were to have a complete uniform...
But strictly speaking an outer coat isn't an absolutely necessary item to own A.) because not everybody lives in a cold climate and B.) because civilian jackets are 100% allowed over the uniform when zipped all the way up.
But I agree, in a perfect world, we'd all have field jackets.

[Eclipse]

...civilian jackets are 100% allowed over the uniform when zipped all the way up.

No, they aren't.  That's not how this works.  It's 100% correct, or you're doing it wrong.

[RADIOMAN015]

...civilian jackets are 100% allowed over the uniform when zipped all the way up.

No, they aren't.  That's not how this works.  It's 100% correct, or you're doing it wrong.

Well again the "reality" versus "fantasy" is that cadets (as well as seniors) wear civilian jackets with their CAP AF type uniforms.  Check out the Color Guard Competition in one of the Rocky mountain states posted on "Volunteer Now" and it clearly shows the cadets outside in uniform with civilian jackets (that are a variety of types).   No one plans on freezing up here in the northeast IF they don't have the money to buy a proper military outer wear jacket.
RM

 

[Eclipse]

No one plans on freezing up here in the northeast IF they don't have the money to buy a proper military outer wear jacket.

Then they should not be wearing the USAF-style uniform, especially senior members. 

This is the kind of thing that drives those of us who can read 39-1 crazy - people who choose to just make things up for convenience.

I understand the typical cadet "cash-flow waiver", fine (as long as it isn't a hello-kitty A2), they have few choices and are unlikely to interact with
anyone in a leadership or representative capacity, but seniors have zero excuse, especially when you consider the
rules are clear and seniors have several choices.

Same goes for anyone wearing a green flight jacket over their blues "because it is all I have", or are out of grooming but "can't afford a new uniform".
The rules aren't different because of that, and don't mistake nothing being said to the offender as not noticing.

People notice.  People that matter.

[lordmonar]

Okay....I'm done with this!

I guess we can only do CAP in the "fair" months.

[cap235629]

$40 - Blouse
$40 - pants
$8  - T-shirt
$10 - Cover
$9 - belt
$100-150 - boots
$10 - socks

total cost: $210-260
double that to be equipped for an NCSA

One wouldn't need to double the total to be equipped for an NCSA. I mean, who needs two covers, two belts, and two pairs of boots  .
Based on your approximation, two sets of ABU's would cost about $100 more, for another blouse, pair of pants, t-shirt, and socks. 

Remember it isn't normally 70 degree in the Great State & Wing of Massachusetts in January 2011, so you are also going to have to buy an outer coat.   The all purpose weather one is about $150.00, and the fleece is around $70.00.  So that will add another $220.00.  That's a lot of lawns cutting & driveways/side walks snow shoveling to do
RM

just to be accurate, Massachusetts is not a state. I know how uptight you are about accuracy and all.....

[sab163]

That's right we are a Commonwealth

[titanII]

That's right we are a Commonwealth

You bet we are... but we'll consider ourselves a state for the purpose of the argument    .

No, they aren't.  That's not how this works.  It's 100% correct, or you're doing it wrong.

Oh, I was led to believe that that was the rule... you could wear a civvie jacket over your uniform if it was zipped all the way up. I don't mean to be snarky, but could you please cite where 39-1 says this is not allowed? Also, I'm wondering what you suggest members/cadets should do if they don't own a field jacket, because none are available...

[EMT-83]

If it's not specifically authorized in the regulations, it's not allowed.

So the question is, where does 39-1 authorize this?

[SARDOC]

Oh, I was led to believe that that was the rule... you could wear a civvie jacket over your uniform if it was zipped all the way up. I don't mean to be snarky, but could you please cite where 39-1 says this is not allowed? Also, I'm wondering what you suggest members/cadets should do if they don't own a field jacket, because none are available...

COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY.  Any variation from this publication is not authorized.  Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear. 

There are some that would say that we can't preclude people from wearing the uniform especially in cold environments where the price of the jacket makes it unattainable for some.  Others would say that if you can't wear the uniform correctly, don't wear it at all.  I don't advocate either way because I would suggest knowing your command climate.  Some Commanders may allow it citing a safety issue, others may not. But you asked where in the regulation it says you can't do it...so there it is.

Some Commanders who allow the alternative while meaning well provide ammunition to those who say we should switch to all corporate uniforms because members still choose to wear the uniform incorrectly.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Most of the Air Force doesn't even know we exist.

Many of those that do wish:

1) that there was no CAP
2) that none of us wore USAF type uniforms
3) that only cadets wore USAF type uniforms, sort of AFJROTC where the schools don't sponsor the program

Now, we shouldn't feel bad about this, because by and large the Air Force leadership (primarily 'rated' officers) feels inordinately superior to mere mortals lacking silver wings...even those holding the same or higher grade in the Air Force itself!

Deny it all you wish; I've observed these folks for 40 plus years...I don't question their patriotism, I appreciate their service and dedication -- but that is the reality of the social dynamic with the organization.

Unfortunately, I have to concur with Zig-Zag on most points.

I joined in 1993, just after berry boards but still with blue plates and "CAP" collar brass.

I remember then being treated fairly well by the AF on their bases.

Over the years it's deteriorated...slowly and YMMV, but it has happened.

I never see the brass at the top who laud us with superlatives, but I have heard the barely-veiled cracks of "those CAP wannabes" over the years.  Not as much from older NCO's, ANG and AFRES as from young AD airmen.  One thing I thoroughly dislike on the CAP side is the inference that when we get that treatment from the Air Force we should just "suck it up" and not say anything back "in the interest of building better relations with the AF."  Bravo Sierra!  Some E-2 almost young enough to be my grandson (I don't find that kind of attitude as much from female Airmen, incidentally) without 1/10 of my life experience calls me a "wannabe" he is going to be told in no uncertain terms that I am not and that with his attitude he is dishonouring the uniform he wears.  I'm not telling him Captain to Airman; I'm telling him late-middle-age adult to young kid.

It's true that over the years CAP has made some egregious mistakes viz. our relationship with the Air Force, but it is bloody ludicrous that we should still be in the mode of "thank you sir may I have another" accepting punishment for it.  A lot of the people who have made those mistakes are no longer associated with CAP!

It's also true that I have gotten a few nice warm fuzzies from AF personnel over the years...again, mostly older types and mostly reserve component.  It is a sad truism that we often get better treatment (in my experience) from the other four services than from our so-called "parent" service.  Again, I'm not talking people with loads of stars and fruit salad; I'm talking down where the rubber meets the road.

In my opinion, based on my experience, there is really nothing more we can do to improve the relationship.  It is illogical in a relationship to improve that relationship when only one side of it wants the improvement.

I would not at all be surprised that ABU's or whatever the AF decides to wear ends up on JROTC, ROTC and SDF Air Wings before, if ever, on us.  It seems like we've become the "thing in the basement to hide" to much of the AF.  Those who have seen Harold And Kumar Escape From Guantanamo Bay will know what I mean.

There are those on the CAP side who say "we need to 'sell' ourselves" to the AF.  Nertz, as Frank Burns would say.  If they don't know about us or our capabilities after all the years of being their Auxiliary, there's no way we can do it ourselves.

[RADIOMAN015]

COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY.  Any variation from this publication is not authorized.  Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear. 

There are some that would say that we can't preclude people from wearing the uniform especially in cold environments where the price of the jacket makes it unattainable for some.  Others would say that if you can't wear the uniform correctly, don't wear it at all.  I don't advocate either way because I would suggest knowing your command climate.  Some Commanders may allow it citing a safety issue, others may not. But you asked where in the regulation it says you can't do it...so there it is.

Some Commanders who allow the alternative while meaning well provide ammunition to those who say we should switch to all corporate uniforms because members still choose to wear the uniform incorrectly.

I think the wear of non military jackets/coats is what I see most. Again, I think one has to be realistic on this.   If it's cold, cadets are not issued jackets for the blues sent to them as part of their membership.  Adult members financially may also have some challenges and may be issued blues by the squadron.  Even with BDU's there just might not be an inexpensive source to buy these jackets.

Field conditions require protective clothing and civilian type clothing may very well provide the best cost effective protection.  I'd rather see some sort of vest(s) (orange as well as perhaps another color (blue with some red/white lettering) and perhaps also a unit/wing patch option)) that could be placed over civilian outer wear which readily identifies the individual as being a member of Civil Air Patrol.   I think easy visual identification is important from a public relations and emergency services support standpoint.

I don't think that on the uniform regulations that the intention of cadets or seniors is to purposely violate with a 'I don't care' attitude, but rather to try to comply as best as they can, within the limits imposed by their current economic situation. 
RM

 

[HGjunkie]