Senior Officers uncomfortable in Air Force skin?

[SARDOC]

I'm sorry, but it is not "mandatory" all the time, period. But we were through this: 39-1 states clearly states, and I quote: "senior members not meeting weight and grooming standards may wear CAP distinctive uniforms or civilian attire as befits the occasion" and my commander decides what befits the occasion. Yes there are times when you must wear the uniform, but as stated above, we have been through this and when they must be worn, etc., etc..

^^^ I can see how you interpret that to suit anything that achieves your personal objectives.  That is not how that was meant however.  That was intended for things like like Black tie events or formal events when some CAP members choose to wear a USAF style Mess Dress...The current Corporate White Shirt and Gray Pants was deemed not formal enough for these events so Appropriate Civilian attire was authorized for these events for those members out of USAF Standards.

[Eclipse]

Owning it is mandatory.

Indeed, but we can all agree that wearing a uniform is not mandatory all the time, correct?

No, we can't, and certainly not when performing official duties with the gravity of an IG investigation.
Raising the "cleaning the shed", etc., card won't get you far with this either.

[RogueLeader]

It is mandatory. It's IAW CAPM 39-1. I can't help it if your commander doesn't enforce the reg. You should regardless. We don't even know which Wing King/Queen doesn't enforce it.

I'm sorry, but it is not "mandatory" all the time, period. But we were through this: 39-1 states clearly states, and I quote: "senior members not meeting weight and grooming standards may wear CAP distinctive uniforms or civilian attire as befits the occasion" and my commander decides what befits the occasion. Yes there are times when you must wear the uniform, but as stated above, we have been through this and when they must be worn, etc., etc..

As to "We don't even know which Wing King/Queen doesn't enforce it", knowing where I live/work is not a part of what we need to share in this forum so as to have this discussion.  

CAPM 39-1 Table 1-1 Line 6 States:when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local,
wing/region, or national CAP functions (see note 1).
Note 1. The National Commander and other commanders may specify the wear of a particular uniform type
for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron, group, wing, region, and national
functions. However, all commanders must be mindful of the objective of attaining a neatly
uniformed appearance at a minimum of personal expense to the individual member and will
consequently refrain from imposing unreasonable uniform requirements.

So yes it IS mandatory, and there is no getting out of it.  I think that if a commander is NOT enforcing the the manual, as mandated in Section 1-2, that boss ought to be notified that your commander is deficient in his/her duties.

Section 1-2 states: 1-2. Command Responsibility. All commanders will ensure that all members, individually and
collectively, present a professional, well-groomed appearance, which will reflect credit upon CAP as the
auxiliary of the United States Air Force. They will ensure all members are uniformed in accordance with
the provisions of this manual, uniform violations are promptly corrected, and that members are
continually informed as to the proper wear of the uniform. The wing commander, or the commander to
whom such authority is delegated by the wing commander, will prescribe the type clothing to be worn
by members while flying or engaging in organized recreational activities. (The region commander will
prescribe wear policy for members of the region headquarters.)
edited to add section 1-2

[Hardshell Clam]

I'm sorry, but it is not "mandatory" all the time, period. But we were through this: 39-1 states clearly states, and I quote: "senior members not meeting weight and grooming standards may wear CAP distinctive uniforms or civilian attire as befits the occasion" and my commander decides what befits the occasion. Yes there are times when you must wear the uniform, but as stated above, we have been through this and when they must be worn, etc., etc..

^^^ I can see how you interpret that to suit anything that achieves your personal objectives.  That is not how that was meant however.  That was intended for things like like Black tie events or formal events when some CAP members choose to wear a USAF style Mess Dress...The current Corporate White Shirt and Gray Pants was deemed not formal enough for these events so Appropriate Civilian attire was authorized for these events for those members out of USAF Standards.

And of course, the same applies to you. By stating that "that is not how that was meant" by the regs does not make it so.

Respectfully, unless you have something like a policy, regulation, some sort of footnotes to the regulations or a legal opinion, your interruption of what the regulations "meant" would fall under your opinion.

[Hardshell Clam]

It is mandatory. It's IAW CAPM 39-1. I can't help it if your commander doesn't enforce the reg. You should regardless. We don't even know which Wing King/Queen doesn't enforce it.

I'm sorry, but it is not "mandatory" all the time, period. But we were through this: 39-1 states clearly states, and I quote: "senior members not meeting weight and grooming standards may wear CAP distinctive uniforms or civilian attire as befits the occasion" and my commander decides what befits the occasion. Yes there are times when you must wear the uniform, but as stated above, we have been through this and when they must be worn, etc., etc..

As to "We don't even know which Wing King/Queen doesn't enforce it", knowing where I live/work is not a part of what we need to share in this forum so as to have this discussion.  

CAPM 39-1 Table 1-1 Line 6 States:when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local,
wing/region, or national CAP functions (see note 1).
Note 1. The National Commander and other commanders may specify the wear of a particular uniform type
for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron, group, wing, region, and national
functions. However, all commanders must be mindful of the objective of attaining a neatly
uniformed appearance at a minimum of personal expense to the individual member and will
consequently refrain from imposing unreasonable uniform requirements.

So yes it IS mandatory, and there is no getting out of it.  I think that if a commander is NOT enforcing the the manual, as mandated in Section 1-2, that boss ought to be notified that your commander is deficient in his/her duties.

Section 1-2 states: 1-2. Command Responsibility. All commanders will ensure that all members, individually and
collectively, present a professional, well-groomed appearance, which will reflect credit upon CAP as the
auxiliary of the United States Air Force. They will ensure all members are uniformed in accordance with
the provisions of this manual, uniform violations are promptly corrected, and that members are
continually informed as to the proper wear of the uniform. The wing commander, or the commander to
whom such authority is delegated by the wing commander, will prescribe the type clothing to be worn
by members while flying or engaging in organized recreational activities. (The region commander will
prescribe wear policy for members of the region headquarters.)
edited to add section 1-2

So, its OK to ignore 39-1 at one cite, buy citing another?  39-1 also clearly states: "senior members not meeting weight and grooming standards may wear CAP distinctive uniforms or civilian attire as befits the occasion"

[SARDOC]

I'm sorry, but it is not "mandatory" all the time, period. But we were through this: 39-1 states clearly states, and I quote: "senior members not meeting weight and grooming standards may wear CAP distinctive uniforms or civilian attire as befits the occasion" and my commander decides what befits the occasion. Yes there are times when you must wear the uniform, but as stated above, we have been through this and when they must be worn, etc., etc..

^^^ I can see how you interpret that to suit anything that achieves your personal objectives.  That is not how that was meant however.  That was intended for things like like Black tie events or formal events when some CAP members choose to wear a USAF style Mess Dress...The current Corporate White Shirt and Gray Pants was deemed not formal enough for these events so Appropriate Civilian attire was authorized for these events for those members out of USAF Standards.

And of course, the same applies to you. By stating that "that is not how that was meant" by the regs does not make it so.

Respectfully, unless you have something like a policy, regulation, some sort of footnotes to the regulations or a legal opinion, your interruption of what the regulations "meant" would fall under your opinion.

I agree and can see someone arguing that loophole.  So since the quote you selected from 39-1 applies only to members who don't meet weight or grooming standards would you also agree that those who do meet Weight and Grooming standards are not eligible for that exemption?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Indeed, but we can all agree that wearing a uniform is not mandatory all the time, correct? And you know what, I have my old CG Aux uniform and it is the same as the USAF light blue/dark blue (same color, company I belive) so I guess I am set!

Non-concur.

The CG trousers are not the same shade of blue as the AF.

And there is a minimum uniform all senior members must have: either the AF-style shirtsleeve dress or the grey/white uniform.  That was made clear to me when I joined in 1993 (though the grey/white was different then) and even the uniform-disliking flying club senior squadron I belonged to acknowledged that.

If you are not wearing a uniform when flying or on ground team ops, I don't think the insurance coverage CAP has will kick in for you.

I was a CGAuxie myself some years back.  They definitely had uniform wear prescribed.

Flotilla meetings - Usually one of the tropical combinations, or winter dress/undress blue, depending on weather.
On patrol - Working blues (now ODU's).  I patrolled on the Division Captain's boat and you didn't even get on the vessel without proper uniform.
Nicely dressed - Service dress blue Alpha/Bravo.
Fancy dress (like COW)  - Mess dress blue/white, Dinner Dress blue/white.

If you don't like wearing a uniform, what are you doing in the auxiliary of a uniformed service?

[SARDOC]

oc·ca·sion   [uh-key-zhuhn] 
noun
1.a particular time, especially as marked by certain circumstances or occurrences: They met on three occasions.
2.a special or important time, event, ceremony, celebration, etc.: His birthday will be quite an occasion.
3.a convenient or favorable time, opportunity, or juncture: This slack period would be a good occasion to take inventory.
4.the immediate or incidental cause or reason for some action or result: What is the occasion for this uproar?
5.(in the philosophy of Alfred North Whitehead) the coincidence of the eternal objects forming a specific point-event.

@Hardshell it seems that "Occasion" is not a matter of routine...but a special circumstance so specific that it needs to be authorized by your commander.

[RogueLeader]

So, its OK to ignore 39-1 at one cite, buy citing another?  39-1 also clearly states: "senior members not meeting weight and grooming standards may wear CAP distinctive uniforms or civilian attire as befits the occasion"

Nope. It gives credence to SARDOC's post as to the intention of those lines.

^^^ I can see how you interpret that to suit anything that achieves your personal objectives.  That is not how that was meant however.  That was intended for things like like Black tie events or formal events when some CAP members choose to wear a USAF style Mess Dress...The current Corporate White Shirt and Gray Pants was deemed not formal enough for these events so Appropriate Civilian attire was authorized for these events for those members out of USAF Standards.

We are taking all of CAPM 39-1 into consideration, not just the parts that we want to see.

[Hardshell Clam]

Owning it is mandatory.

Indeed, but we can all agree that wearing a uniform is not mandatory all the time, correct?

No, we can't, and certainly not when performing official duties with the gravity of an IG investigation.
Raising the "cleaning the shed", etc., card won't get you far with this either.

The regs are clear, uniform wear is NOT always mandatory, and that is not really logically debatable.

However, "certainly not when performing official duties with the gravity of an IG investigation" is your opinion and therefore debatable but not within your purview, unless you are in command of the parties involved.

[RogueLeader]

We have demonstrated that they are.

[NCRblues]

I have a question for you hardshell...

You say you use days/nights other than normal meeting nights correct?

How often do you do "IG investigations"?

I happen to know several wing IG's very well, and 2 of the 3 have only even done ONE "investigation" and the other has done zero. (not counting reports of surveys)

[Hardshell Clam]

So, its OK to ignore 39-1 at one cite, buy citing another?  39-1 also clearly states: "senior members not meeting weight and grooming standards may wear CAP distinctive uniforms or civilian attire as befits the occasion"

Nope. It gives credence to SARDOC's post as to the intention of those lines.

^^^ I can see how you interpret that to suit anything that achieves your personal objectives.  That is not how that was meant however.  That was intended for things like like Black tie events or formal events when some CAP members choose to wear a USAF style Mess Dress...The current Corporate White Shirt and Gray Pants was deemed not formal enough for these events so Appropriate Civilian attire was authorized for these events for those members out of USAF Standards.

We are taking all of CAPM 39-1 into consideration, not just the parts that we want to see.

And I really respect this thought as most every reg is subject to some interpretation, confusion and contradiction. (No, never in the CAP!)

However how can you get past the plain, simple wording:"senior members not meeting weight and grooming standards may wear CAP distinctive uniforms or civilian attire as befits the occasion"?  Just asking.

[Hardshell Clam]

We have demonstrated that they are.

I disagree. You have demonstrated you opinion.

[a2capt]

 

[Hardshell Clam]

I have a question for you hardshell...

You say you use days/nights other than normal meeting nights correct?

How often do you do "IG investigations"?

I happen to know several wing IG's very well, and 2 of the 3 have only even done ONE "investigation" and the other has done zero. (not counting reports of surveys)

These questions are along the same line as your others in that they are specific and investigative in nature towards me and not really necessary to the question of this thread: "Senior Officers uncomfortable in Air Force skin?"

I will agree with you in that the CAP in general is not generally flooded with investigation and if only one or twelve per year, it does not negate my reasoning.

[NCRblues]

I have a question for you hardshell...

You say you use days/nights other than normal meeting nights correct?

How often do you do "IG investigations"?

I happen to know several wing IG's very well, and 2 of the 3 have only even done ONE "investigation" and the other has done zero. (not counting reports of surveys)

These questions are along the same line as your others in that they are specific and investigative in nature towards me and not really necessary to the question of this thread: "Senior Officers uncomfortable in Air Force skin?"

I will agree with you in that the CAP in general is not generally flooded with investigation and if only one or twelve per year, it does not negate my reasoning.

I was not asking in an "investigative nature". I was simply wondering how often you have to ask someone to meet on an off night away from cap, and how often those people do it.

[RogueLeader]

However how can you get past the plain, simple wording:"senior members not meeting weight and grooming standards may wear CAP distinctive uniforms or civilian attire as befits the occasion"?  Just asking.[/color]

no getting around it. There is a list of AD style and a corresponding list of corporate uniforms. That line that you use to justify not wearing a uniform is to cover the gaps such as the Mess Dress.

[Hardshell Clam]

I have a question for you hardshell...

You say you use days/nights other than normal meeting nights correct?

How often do you do "IG investigations"?

I happen to know several wing IG's very well, and 2 of the 3 have only even done ONE "investigation" and the other has done zero. (not counting reports of surveys)

These questions are along the same line as your others in that they are specific and investigative in nature towards me and not really necessary to the question of this thread: "Senior Officers uncomfortable in Air Force skin?"

I will agree with you in that the CAP in general is not generally flooded with investigation and if only one or twelve per year, it does not negate my reasoning.

I was not asking in an "investigative nature". I was simply wondering how often you have to ask someone to meet on an off night away from cap, and how often those people do it.

I have found that a lot of solid viable complaints never get past the initial contact when the party reporting finds out that they have to meet within the view of their peers. I always give them an option in meeting places within policy, logic and accessibility and provides safeguards to all involved.

[RogueLeader]

That was not an answer to the question asked. So I may take it that you have not done a single IF.