Uniforms: Things never change...gotta love consistancy

[Major_Chuck]

Okay, I've been gone for about four years and I logged back in to see what was happening and the uniform debate still rages.  Now the much hated TPU is going away after a having a longer service life than General McPeak's blue admiral/airline pilot uniform of the 90's.

I am curious to know how much money was wasted developing the "corporate" uniform, what was invested in the uniform by Vanguard, and how many CAP members spent a good amount of money to purchase it?  Just curious.

BDU versus the Blueberry Field Uniform.  Best uniform option CAP came up with in addition to the blue polo and grey slacks.  Aviator shirt and gray slacks weren't bad either.

ABU's.  I don't foresee CAP ever being authorized to wear it.

Well.  I'll probably lurk around here for a while and throw in my two cents.

Chuck

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Okay, I've been gone for about four years and I logged back in to see what was happening and the uniform debate still rages.  Now the much hated TPU is going away after a having a longer service life than General McPeak's blue admiral/airline pilot uniform of the 90's.

Major, you are one of the few that "hates" the CSU.  There are a lot of people, myself included, who like it and harbour some hope that cooler heads will prevail and that it will be retained.

I am curious to know how much money was wasted developing the "corporate" uniform, what was invested in the uniform by Vanguard, and how many CAP members spent a good amount of money to purchase it?  Just curious.

I can only speak for myself.  I already had parts of it because I have the AF blue uniform.  The only specific parts I shelled out for were the blue nameplate, brushed-silver "Civil Air Patrol" nameplate (which I will never be able to use now) and blue Captain's shoulder marks, oh, and paying a few bucks for a set of Captain's bars at my local Army-Navy.  The CSU got canned before I ever got to purchase the service dress coat.

BDU versus the Blueberry Field Uniform.

I own, use and like the BBDU.  I would like to see CAP go to that since we really don't need camouflage.

Best uniform option CAP came up with in addition to the blue polo and grey slacks.  Aviator shirt and gray slacks weren't bad either.

Both of which I think suck rocks, but at least the white/grey looks somewhat quasi-military aviation (look at old pictures of the East German Air Force - the grey is nearly identical).

ABU's.  I don't foresee CAP ever being authorized to wear it.

Agreed, especially given the jumble of camouflage field uniforms now being thrown in the blender among the five services...not incidentally costing the taxpayer more money.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Okay, I've been gone for about four years and I logged back in to see what was happening and the uniform debate still rages.  Now the much hated TPU is going away after a having a longer service life than General McPeak's blue admiral/airline pilot uniform of the 90's.

I am curious to know how much money was wasted developing the "corporate" uniform, what was invested in the uniform by Vanguard, and how many CAP members spent a good amount of money to purchase it?  Just curious.

I like the CSU as well, and I think you will be largely outnumbered everywhere in CAP. I wear Blues, but I still like the CSU. I think it is a good alternative for those who can't or don't want to wear Blues. I still have quarrels about anyone wanting to drop a professional uniform for those who can't wear Blues. I don't think the Lambda Lambda Lambda jacket is even decent as  a uniform option, the pocket protector available to that uniform is just not at all a good way to show someones progress. I also think dropping the CSU shows those who are overweight that they don't mean as much as those who can wear Blues,  everyone deserves a good looking uniform.

BDU versus the Blueberry Field Uniform.  Best uniform option CAP came up with in addition to the blue polo and grey slacks.  Aviator shirt and gray slacks weren't bad either.

ABU's.  I don't foresee CAP ever being authorized to wear it.

Well.  I'll probably lurk around here for a while and throw in my two cents.

Chuck

I don't think we should drop the BDU or decline any uniform that USAF approves for us to wear, whether it be the ABU, or MPU, or any other uniform that they approve. It shows me that there are some in CAP who hate that we are associated with the military. To keep in the traditions of CAP and our link with USAF we need to continue as we always have and move to the current uniform of USAF when they say go ahead. If you  don't want to wear the USAF style uniforms, then don't, if you don't want a relation to USAF, then leave CAP.

[lordmonar]

I don't know it this is a thread about "what uniforms I want" or is this a thead about "CAPTALK talks about uniforms too much".

Bottom line.

CAPTALK is where we talk about CAP........hence the name.

And uniforms seem to be important to a lot of peopl in CAP and especially to some on CAPTALK.

The debate still rages...because nothing has really changed.  The USAF started moving to ABUs six years ago....and CAP is still in limbo.
The CSU (formally the TPU) is dead......it is on its way out.....but there is no real fix for the fat and fuzzies.

Now if you wan personal opinons from some of us on this forum?

Well.......personally, I think it was an error to nix the CSU.  We should have take the silver braid off of it and then made it the only uniform option for seniors.
I think that we should eliminate the BDU option for seniors and go with the BBDU.
I think we need to just take off the rank from the shoulder of the flight suit and eliminate the blue flight suit.

That would solve 90% of all the arguments IMHO.

It get us seniors into a single uniform.
It make nice with the USAF who seem to think that there is a problem when their airman can't tell the difference between a CAP officer and a "real" officer.
It keeps us close to the USAF in appearance to maintain the identity that we are their auxillery.
It keeps the military look that we need/want.

The real driver of the "problem" is and always has been the USAF IMHO.

The USAF makes no effort to educate themselves on who and what CAP is.
The USAF is reluctantant to come out and openly state their opinion of the appearance of CAP (we get a lot of hearsay and inuendo).
The USAF seems IMHO to want it's cake and to eat it too.  They want to dictate uniforms but not anything else.

CAP does not help the situation with the wannabe's who troll for salutes, the PITAs who refuse to follow published regulations and wear the uniforms improperly, the leadersh who do what they want no matter what the USAF has stated.

We in CAP can do our part by:

1) Forcing our peers and subordinates to wear the uniforms properly.
2) Clearing communicating our wishes and desires for uniforms up the chain of command so the Wing CC's can take it up at the NB.
3) Stop looking at the uniforms from what you as an individual wants....but what is good for the organisation.  (we have a lot of heart burn over branding with the triangle thingy.....but no one worries about our branding when we have 9 different uniform combinations at a meeting/mission base).

[RiverAux]

All the BIG uniform issues are at root an Air Force issue and always have been.  The cause is their relatively recent desire to not have anyone fat or fuzzy in anything that looks like a current or former (BDU) AF uniform.  Hence we have corporate and AF style uniforms.  If there ever was an example of a solution without a real underlying problem, this is it. 

All CAP members should be in an Air Force style uniform.  Putting us all in corporate uniforms won't make a bit of difference to those who think that having an occasional CAP member demand a salute from a military member is a problem.  Those whackos are just as likely to do it if they were in a CAP corporate military style uniform as an AF style uniform.  I'm sure if we looked hard enough we could dig out a story about a CAP member in BBDUs demanding a salute.   Sure, those situations should not happen but they are so rare and don't really mean anything anyway, we should not base our whole uniform system on them.

How little of a problem would it be if all CAP members returned to being in AF style uniforms -- like we were for much of our history?  None at all.  We only have to look at the CG Aux.  They wear uniforms much closer to CG uniforms than CAP AF style uniforms are to actual AF uniforms.  CG Auxies are constantly encouraged and do go out and represent the CG to the general public way more than CAP represents the AF.  They're teaching classes, inspecting boats, and actually conducting on-the-water patrols and I'd say that the possibility of a bad press for the CG because of CG Aux actions is WAY higher than anything CAP could do that would make the AF look bad.  But, despite all that there actually are no real problems with their uniforms being almost identical.

If all CAP members were in AF style uniforms it would also have the added benefit of removing the ability of CAP leaders to come up with even more crazy ideas for uniform items than they do now and there would be at least some "adult" oversight since all uniform changes would have to go through the AF. 

[lordmonar]

Oh I agree with you River (yes the world is comming to an end! ).......

I think the USAF has caused a lot of the uniform problems because of knee jerk reactions to what were actually isolated issues.

If I were God.....

I would work with the USAF to get all of us into the USAF style uniform.  I would tell the USAF that they have to accpet the thin and shaved as well as the fat and fuzzies.

I would tell CAP members that we will have to accept some differences from the USAF uniform to releive the fears that the USAF has about us embarrasing the USAF through mistake identity.

I think that bringing the wing patches back or putting a generic CAP patch on the shoulder of all CAP uniforms would do the trick.  I mean even the blindest, brain deadest airman at basic training could tell a real officer from a CAP officer when therer is a big blue CAP path on the shoulder of his ABUs.

I think the USAF needs to do their part to include CAP in their basic training curriculmn.  The Auxillary is part of the USAF and airman and new officers need to know who we are and what we look like.

And I agree.....that if we mirrored USAF rules (I have even proposed that we be a chapter in their uniform reg) we would give the USAF sole control of our uniforms and by extention give us the power of "The USAF does not want you wear oragne t-shirts and ranger tabs, or whistles and ascots, or pink tutus and 5 duty badges."

[RADIOMAN015]

For senior/adult members -- Overall I'd like to see us ALL in the AF blue type uniforms with some better modifications to differentiate us more from the the typical AF uniform.  Also for the utility uniform I would go with the Blue BDU's and again do some additional modifications to better differentiate us from others.
For the AF blue uniforms I would go to a bright red name tag also with bright red shoulder boards.  Also for the class A service dress I would change the buttons to reflect those red prop triangle CAP emblem.  I would remove the one of US insignia's and have only US insignia and the other side a CAP insignia.   For the hat again I would go to a bright red hat.

For the utility uniform and flight uniforms it would be Blue again with red base ball type CAP and red name tags, with the same bright red base ball caps with NO rank and the cap would have the new triangle insignia on it.  I would also consider only having the rank display just above the individual's name on the uniform.

For the cadets again it would be the AF type uniform, which is already differentiated, except for the red name tag (versus blue) and I also would put all the cadets in blue bdu's.

I would also continue to allow the short/long golf shirts BUT these would be worn with the AF blue pants.

I think we would have to study what outer garments would be cost effective, I'd like to see something such as an all weather winter & than spring/fall/summer type jacket.

For the most part I think CAP needs to force the uniform issue even if it involves congress, especially IF we can make it distinctive enough and only use the blue uniforms (color & cut) used by the AF with everything else on the uniform VERY distinctive.
RM         

[HGjunkie]

For senior/adult members -- Overall I'd like to see us ALL in the AF blue type uniforms with some better modifications to differentiate us more from the the typical AF uniform.  Also for the utility uniform I would go with the Blue BDU's and again do some additional modifications to better differentiate us from others.
For the AF blue uniforms I would go to a bright red name tag also with bright red shoulder boards.  Also for the class A service dress I would change the buttons to reflect those red prop triangle CAP emblem.  I would remove the one of US insignia's and have only US insignia and the other side a CAP insignia.   For the hat again I would go to a bright red hat.

For the utility uniform and flight uniforms it would be Blue again with red base ball type CAP and red name tags, with the same bright red base ball caps with NO rank and the cap would have the new triangle insignia on it.  I would also consider only having the rank display just above the individual's name on the uniform.

For the cadets again it would be the AF type uniform, which is already differentiated, except for the red name tag (versus blue) and I also would put all the cadets in blue bdu's.

I would also continue to allow the short/long golf shirts BUT these would be worn with the AF blue pants.

I think we would have to study what outer garments would be cost effective, I'd like to see something such as an all weather winter & than spring/fall/summer type jacket.

For the most part I think CAP needs to force the uniform issue even if it involves congress, especially IF we can make it distinctive enough and only use the blue uniforms (color & cut) used by the AF with everything else on the uniform VERY distinctive.
RM         

No, Just no! What's with the red obsession? 

[ol'fido]

For senior/adult members -- Overall I'd like to see us ALL in the AF blue type uniforms with some better modifications to differentiate us more from the the typical AF uniform.  Also for the utility uniform I would go with the Blue BDU's and again do some additional modifications to better differentiate us from others.
For the AF blue uniforms I would go to a bright red name tag also with bright red shoulder boards.  Also for the class A service dress I would change the buttons to reflect those red prop triangle CAP emblem.  I would remove the one of US insignia's and have only US insignia and the other side a CAP insignia.   For the hat again I would go to a bright red hat.

For the utility uniform and flight uniforms it would be Blue again with red base ball type CAP and red name tags, with the same bright red base ball caps with NO rank and the cap would have the new triangle insignia on it.  I would also consider only having the rank display just above the individual's name on the uniform.

For the cadets again it would be the AF type uniform, which is already differentiated, except for the red name tag (versus blue) and I also would put all the cadets in blue bdu's.

I would also continue to allow the short/long golf shirts BUT these would be worn with the AF blue pants.

I think we would have to study what outer garments would be cost effective, I'd like to see something such as an all weather winter & than spring/fall/summer type jacket.

For the most part I think CAP needs to force the uniform issue even if it involves congress, especially IF we can make it distinctive enough and only use the blue uniforms (color & cut) used by the AF with everything else on the uniform VERY distinctive.
RM         

From CAP(Civil Air Patrol) to ZAP(Zouave Air Patrol).

[HGjunkie]

_Redundant post_

[RVT]

RM

Nothing really needs to change at all, except for a replacement for the CSU coat.  Or for that matter - DON'T replace it, wear it over the current  grey &white.  Tell me ANYBODY is going to mistake that for a military uniform.

[JK657]

It seems that rank insignia is at the core of what the AF has issues with when it comes to CAP.

Do you think that wearing McPeek or Navy type rank stripes with CAP uniforms would solve that issue?

[RADIOMAN015]

_Redundant post_

Last time I looked at a cadet their rank is red., blue, & white.  Again change the name tags to a bright red, CAP to a bright red background with white lettering and this will be VERY good differentiation to the USAF as well as the general public that we are CIVIL Air Patrol!
:clap:
RM

[Persona non grata]

I am for tropical shirts and grey 5.11 cargo pants!!!!!!!

[HGjunkie]

_Redundant post_

Last time I looked at a cadet their rank is red., blue, & white.  Again change the name tags to a bright red, CAP to a bright red background with white lettering and this will be VERY good differentiation to the USAF as well as the general public that we are CIVIL Air Patrol!
:clap:
RM

No. The red you mentioned on the enlisted ranks is plenty on the uniform. I absolutely cannot stand the thought of my nameplate/tapes being some funky clown-red color instead of dark blue.

And I get it, you don't like the military uniforms.

[James Shaw]

I personally like the CSU uniform. I would wear it if they kept it around.

[Persona non grata]

I personally like the CSU uniform. I would wear it if they kept it around.

second

[manfredvonrichthofen]

For senior/adult members -- Overall I'd like to see us ALL in the AF blue type uniforms with some better modifications to differentiate us more from the the typical AF uniform.  Also for the utility uniform I would go with the Blue BDU's and again do some additional modifications to better differentiate us from others.
For the AF blue uniforms I would go to a bright red name tag also with bright red shoulder boards.  Also for the class A service dress I would change the buttons to reflect those red prop triangle CAP emblem.  I would remove the one of US insignia's and have only US insignia and the other side a CAP insignia.   For the hat again I would go to a bright red hat.

For the utility uniform and flight uniforms it would be Blue again with red base ball type CAP and red name tags, with the same bright red base ball caps with NO rank and the cap would have the new triangle insignia on it.  I would also consider only having the rank display just above the individual's name on the uniform.

For the cadets again it would be the AF type uniform, which is already differentiated, except for the red name tag (versus blue) and I also would put all the cadets in blue bdu's.

I would also continue to allow the short/long golf shirts BUT these would be worn with the AF blue pants.

I think we would have to study what outer garments would be cost effective, I'd like to see something such as an all weather winter & than spring/fall/summer type jacket.

For the most part I think CAP needs to force the uniform issue even if it involves congress, especially IF we can make it distinctive enough and only use the blue uniforms (color & cut) used by the AF with everything else on the uniform VERY distinctive.
RM         

We get it YOU don't like the idea of being asociated with the military. Don't think of riddling our uniforms with clown makeup. Our shoulder marks do enough as they are already gray to differentiate us form USAF.

I have asked you this question before RM, and you never gave an answer. What do you have against military uniforms?

[flyboy53]

For senior/adult members -- Overall I'd like to see us ALL in the AF blue type uniforms with some better modifications to differentiate us more from the the typical AF uniform.  Also for the utility uniform I would go with the Blue BDU's and again do some additional modifications to better differentiate us from others.
For the AF blue uniforms I would go to a bright red name tag also with bright red shoulder boards.  Also for the class A service dress I would change the buttons to reflect those red prop triangle CAP emblem.  I would remove the one of US insignia's and have only US insignia and the other side a CAP insignia.   For the hat again I would go to a bright red hat.

For the utility uniform and flight uniforms it would be Blue again with red base ball type CAP and red name tags, with the same bright red base ball caps with NO rank and the cap would have the new triangle insignia on it.  I would also consider only having the rank display just above the individual's name on the uniform.

For the cadets again it would be the AF type uniform, which is already differentiated, except for the red name tag (versus blue) and I also would put all the cadets in blue bdu's.

I would also continue to allow the short/long golf shirts BUT these would be worn with the AF blue pants.

I think we would have to study what outer garments would be cost effective, I'd like to see something such as an all weather winter & than spring/fall/summer type jacket.

For the most part I think CAP needs to force the uniform issue even if it involves congress, especially IF we can make it distinctive enough and only use the blue uniforms (color & cut) used by the AF with everything else on the uniform VERY distinctive.
RM         

We get it YOU don't like the idea of being asociated with the military. Don't think of riddling our uniforms with clown makeup. Our shoulder marks do enough as they are already gray to differentiate us form USAF.

I have asked you this question before RM, and you never gave an answer. What do you have against military uniforms?

The next thing would be because we are the CiIVIL AIR PATROL, and that's getting old. Why is it that the uniform issue only came to a head because a certain former national commander thumbed his nose at the Air Force and tried to put people into a strange combination of Air Force band uniforms (ever see the two uniforms side by side) and Army uniform items. 

As far as the red thing, sure. Red and SILVER or grey are WWII official colors of the CAP, but red is now also used by state guard units especially with name plates and BDU name tapes.

By the way, blue BDUs mean special duty people in the Air Force...missile launch, transient maintenance, SF emergency service teams. Blue BDUs are also worn by a lot of civilian EMS teams, amd the Coast Guard Auxiliary.

The CAP uniform is distinctive enough. As far as putting the wing patches back on, you'd need to educate the masses about hearldry. In some instances, trying to change a wing patch to conform with the current acceptable standard (Air Force wing patches) only draws the same ire from the field, so it's kind of a lost cause.

[PHall]

For senior/adult members -- Overall I'd like to see us ALL in the AF blue type uniforms with some better modifications to differentiate us more from the the typical AF uniform.  Also for the utility uniform I would go with the Blue BDU's and again do some additional modifications to better differentiate us from others.
For the AF blue uniforms I would go to a bright red name tag also with bright red shoulder boards.  Also for the class A service dress I would change the buttons to reflect those red prop triangle CAP emblem.  I would remove the one of US insignia's and have only US insignia and the other side a CAP insignia.   For the hat again I would go to a bright red hat.

For the utility uniform and flight uniforms it would be Blue again with red base ball type CAP and red name tags, with the same bright red base ball caps with NO rank and the cap would have the new triangle insignia on it.  I would also consider only having the rank display just above the individual's name on the uniform.

For the cadets again it would be the AF type uniform, which is already differentiated, except for the red name tag (versus blue) and I also would put all the cadets in blue bdu's.

I would also continue to allow the short/long golf shirts BUT these would be worn with the AF blue pants.

I think we would have to study what outer garments would be cost effective, I'd like to see something such as an all weather winter & than spring/fall/summer type jacket.

For the most part I think CAP needs to force the uniform issue even if it involves congress, especially IF we can make it distinctive enough and only use the blue uniforms (color & cut) used by the AF with everything else on the uniform VERY distinctive.
RM         

We get it YOU don't like the idea of being asociated with the military. Don't think of riddling our uniforms with clown makeup. Our shoulder marks do enough as they are already gray to differentiate us form USAF.

I have asked you this question before RM, and you never gave an answer. What do you have against military uniforms?

Is it the fact you're a Retired member of the Armed Forces and you can't stand the idea that a "civilian" can wear a uniform?

Get over it. Heck even AAFES wears ABU's when they're "downrange".