Forget about CAP getting ABUs

[lordmonar]

No....because 39-1 only specifies about cadet uniforms.

Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander
may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the
uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet.

So.....looking at this from a regs hounds point of view.

Shoes not provided....not required.  Name plate not provided....not required.  BDUs not provided...not required.

BDUs not provided at encampment.....you can't prevent a Blues only cadet from participating.

I know that this is a stretch....and as far as I know this has never come up before.    However....from a leadership point of view....consistency in our regulations lends legitimacy to them.

As we all know 90% of our heart burns with uniforms (and other regs) comes from the gray area.

[SarDragon]

No....because 39-1 only specifies about cadet uniforms.

[quote 39-1 Para 1-5]Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander
may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the
uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet.

So.....looking at this from a regs hounds point of view.

Shoes not provided....not required.  Name plate not provided....not required.  BDUs not provided...not required.

BDUs not provided at encampment.....you can't prevent a Blues only cadet from participating.

I know that this is a stretch....and as far as I know this has never come up before.    However....from a leadership point of view....consistency in our regulations lends legitimacy to them.

As we all know 90% of our heart burns with uniforms (and other regs) comes from the gray area.
[/quote]

Pat, you're doin' a bungee jump over the Grand Canyon with that stretch!

What's your reference for only specifying about cadet uniforms?

From para 1-5, a part you didn't quote:

Members will equip themselves with the basic uniform. The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below.

Yes, the minimum basic uniform is Service Blues.

Per para 1-5.a.:

a. Minimum Basic Service Uniform. Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue
belt/silver buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch,
collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem.

The wording of the reg with regards to required uniforms hasn't changed much over the years. Just because the cadets currently get a deal on a set of blues doesn't mean the all the rest of the stuff that isn't issued is no longer required.

It appears to me that at this point, you are merely stirring things up just to get a rise out of us.

[FlyTiger77]

It appears to me that at this point, you are merely stirring things up just to get a rise out of us.

Do people really do that on CAPTalk???

[lordmonar]

It appears to me that at this point, you are merely stirring things up just to get a rise out of us.

No...not really.  I am just taking a point (the regs are mess) and using a absurde position to show how that could be argued.

A more logical point would be for some squadron commander to say "everyone wears BDUs tommorrow" and a cadet refusing on the basis that the regs don't support the commander.

This is exactly what happens at encampment.  The clothing list requires BDUs....but the regulations say that the commander can't do that.

My point to Ned was that we (CAP) should activitly seek out these intresting contradictions in the regulations and eliminate or clarify them as need.

This is just one of my pet peeves.

Some good meaing staff officer wrote those two sentances to prevent some commander forching his people to go out and buy service caps, service coats and other costly items.....with out really looking at the full implications of the regulation.

[RiverAux]

A noble cause Pat, but sadly one that no one will ever succeed in.  One set of corrections inevitably leads to another set of problems. 

[Ned]

It may never happen...but if some cadet shows up to encampment with just his blues and stand on the regulations?  Is it possible to fail him for his encampment requirements?

Pat,

Such things already happen, and have happened to me as an encampment commander.  (Indigent kid showed up at encampment with a single pair of blues and his squadron had told him that it would be "OK".)

We just do what diligent seniors like you have always done - figured a way to make it work.  We scared up a couple of uniforms and a gently used pair of boots in the correct size.  Problem solved.

Turns out most troops just want to go to encampment and have a good time rather than make some sort of political protest about regulations.  The kid graduated and got his Mitchell.  I lost track of him after that . . . .

I know I am stretchering things a bit.....but we have all seen the regs hounds jump and down over the smallest misplaced comma.

Knowing your long service as well as I do, I'll bet that you would agree with me that we need fewer "regs hounds" and more dedicated seniors who just figure out ways to make our program work for the troops.

Ned Lee
Encampment Enthusiast

[Grumpy]

"Knowing your long service as well as I do, I'll bet that you would agree with me that we need fewer "regs hounds" and more dedicated seniors who just figure out ways to make our program work for the troops."

Here, here.   :clap:

[Hawk200]

....I'll bet that you would agree with me that we need fewer "regs hounds" ....

We'll always have reg hounds, doesn't matter how much we wish otherwise. If wishes were horses, CAP would also be mounted.

...and more dedicated seniors who just figure out ways to make our program work for the troops.

Agreed, but the hounds must be pacified as well. Writing pubs that are specific and correct has the added benefit of pacifying those reg hounds. When they find there's nothing to nit pick, they either move on or focus on more important things. Either way, the rest of us win.

[BradM]

Does anyone know where I can get this patch for a flight suit? Is this the patch all in CAP where on their flight suits? Thanks

[SarDragon]

Actually, that's a two iterations out dated patch. The current patch is available from Vanguard. There's no text in the blue area, and the scroll says Civil air Patrol.

"Is this the patch all in CAP where wear on their flight suits?"

[tsrup]

Does anyone know where I can get this patch for a flight suit? Is this the patch all in CAP where on their flight suits? Thanks

Not since March 2008..

[jimmydeanno]

Does anyone know where I can get this patch for a flight suit? Is this the patch all in CAP where on their flight suits? Thanks

You want to buy this one: http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=13551

The two in the pictures above are obsolete.  If one is still wearing it, they are in violation of the regulations.

[Eclipse]

The version shown above is actually two revisions back - like 4 years, and I still see people wearing it.

[davidsinn]

The version shown above is actually two revisions back - like 4 years, and I still see people wearing it.

Does anyone know where I could swing one? I'd like to put it in my shadow box because it looks nicer than the current one.

[tsrup]

The version shown above is actually two revisions back - like 4 years, and I still see people wearing it.

Does anyone know where I could swing one? I'd like to put it in my shadow box because it looks nicer than the current one.

I'd have to check but I started wearing my flight suit during that time, I might have one laying around. 
No guarantees, that was like 8 moves ago..
the joys of college life...

[BradM]

Actually, that's a two iterations out dated patch. The current patch is available from Vanguard. There's no text in the blue area, and the scroll says Civil air Patrol.

"Is this the patch all in CAP where wear on their flight suits?"

Sorry about the typo my fingers typed the wrong word yet my mind was thinking "wear" haha

I often type "teh" and have to correct that as well.

If anyone has the patch I posted pics of can I buy it off you?
Thanks!

[BradM]

Thank you for the link to the the current one too.

[Eclipse]

The version shown above is actually two revisions back - like 4 years, and I still see people wearing it.

Does anyone know where I could swing one? I'd like to put it in my shadow box because it looks nicer than the current one.

Get a few spares of the current one, and at the next SAREx start swapping them with people who are still behind the curve.
Unfortunately there are several people in my area (not AOR) who wear them on purpose as some sort of bizarre "statement".

[davidsinn]

The version shown above is actually two revisions back - like 4 years, and I still see people wearing it.

Does anyone know where I could swing one? I'd like to put it in my shadow box because it looks nicer than the current one.

Get a few spares of the current one, and at the next SAREx start swapping them with people who are still behind the curve.
Unfortunately there are several people in my area (not AOR) who wear them on purpose as some sort of bizarre "statement".

I'll have to remember that for when the SAREVAL is five miles from my house next summer.

[Major Carrales]

Some of these kids are pretty sharp and will be able to figure out ways, to work for the money, for these items. Joe, you don't give them enough credit.

No, its just that I would prefer that said resources go to other more lofty things than merely some uniform item, which is a basic, or be stopped at a given level because their parents used their encampment money to...I don't know...pay the rent of buy food.

We are here to provide opportunity...its strange that we would only offer a "doorway" with no "door knob." 

All I am asking is that we take that into consideration when we do things.  Not everyone is from the Rich Side of town.

Major, with all due respect, CAP isn't the Boys and Girls Club. Virtually every volunteering opportunity requires some investment. Heck, I had to buy my own gear for my paid private ambulance company.  CAP has never said "We're here to take disadvantaged youth and use Air Force funds to turn their lives around."

On the contrary...the value of our cadet program is said to be in helping the youth of America.  When we are talking about minors starting at age "12" who do not have a job for can legally hold one...we are talking about personal finance as a real issue.

Ours is to offer opportunity...not excuses.

There is nothing wrong in calling for financial efficiency in uniform choices.  BDUs were once plentiful and readily obtainable from DRMO or a surplus store (sometimes for as low as 7 dollars for each part); that is no longer the case.

Having the expense (at least $70 plus boots and bdu patrol cap) of a uniform they will outgrow rapidly is somewhat ridiculous.  Other USAF adopted utility uniforms will one day have the ubiquitous status BDUs once had, keeping BDUs or adopting an alternative will mean that the lion's share of cadets in my squadron could never afford to have the uniform to fully take advantage of what CAP has to offer.

Think...people...stop doing the "political talking point" thing and start meeting the realities.