Base commander authorizing the beret for CAP.

[Eclipse]

CAP has been banned from bases before.
Anybody remember what happened right after 9/11?  CAP units that had met on AF Bases for years were not allowed on base for several weeks.

Which had nothing to do with uniforms, and everything to do with threat evaluation and a misunderstanding of who we are.

[Cobra1597]

CAP has been banned from bases before.
Anybody remember what happened right after 9/11?  CAP units that had met on AF Bases for years were not allowed on base for several weeks.

Which had nothing to do with uniforms, and everything to do with threat evaluation and a misunderstanding of who we are.

I also don't think it was universal. I don't remember Hanscom complaining about not being able to get on base, but that might have to do with the local squadrons up here helping so much with the 9/11 response. I do remember some crazy security procedures makings things difficult for awhile, but those were understandable and we worked through them.

[lordmonar]

Pat, bottom line is that CAP is on his base at his pleasure. CAP has been banned from bases before.
Anybody remember what happened right after 9/11?  CAP units that had met on AF Bases for years were not allowed on base for several weeks.

No one disputes that.....No one disputes that IF a base commander got a hair up his buttocks about berets, flight suits, bdu or CAP is just a posers and wanna be he could make all sort of unreasonable demands and force us off base.

But....he that is as far as he can go.

He can't authorised or deauthorise anything with our uniforms.  He can only ban us from base.

And to be absolutely clear about 9/11....CAP was not banned.....ALL non essential civilan guests were banned from base, CAP was not singled out.

[raivo]

I suspect a better wording for the original quoted post would have been: "If the Base Commander allows CAP [members] to wear the beret when CAP regulations say that they can, then it's legal."

How that mutated into an argument over what would happen in a highly improbable hypothetical situation is beyond me.

Cliffnotes:
* The base commander can tell you not to wear a beret on his base. If you don't like it, you don't come on base.
* The base commander cannot tell you that you must wear a beret on his base, or supersede CAP's regulations. And that's not going to happen anyway, so I don't know why it's being argued.

[cap235629]

Case in point at Camp Attlerbury, it is a camp directive that reflective belts will be work between the hours of 1800 and 0700. NESA students and staff who fail to wear a belt, can and have been cited by the MP's for failure to comply.

On a commanders action citation

[AlphaSigOU]

I remember back in my days when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I was a cadink that whenever we were at the former NTC Orlando for activities we could not wear CAC 'deodorant strings' - ahem, shoulder cords - while on base, especially the red ones, since that was the badge of office for Navy recruit training CPOs.

[JoeTomasone]

I don't see where all the confusion comes from.  Seems pretty clear:


1. The Base Commander can certainly say that you must or can not do whatever - be it wear/not wear a given (article of a) uniform, access a certain facility, eat at the O-Club, etc.   However:

2. If the Base Commander insists that you do something contrary to regulations, you point that out, going through the appropriate liaison.

3. If the Base Commander still requires you to do something contrary to regulations, you don't do whatever activity requires it. 


If the Commander requires you to wear an orange hat/boonie hat/etc to enter the base, and refuses to reconsider, then you don't go on the base, plain and simple.   However, if the Commander bans blue BDUs, then you must wear a uniform that is approved, or again, you don't go.    Such issues should be resolved by the liaison officer. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

I remember back in my days when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I was a cadink that whenever we were at the former NTC Orlando for activities we could not wear CAC 'deodorant strings' - ahem, shoulder cords - while on base, especially the red ones, since that was the badge of office for Navy recruit training CPOs.

My first unit met at Great Lakes, on the NTC side. Even at 14, with an impressive 9-10 ribbons, and a funky uniform, the newly trained seamen would snap a salute. I can't even image what would happen to them if they saw the red cords...

[Eclipse]

I remember back in my days when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I was a cadink that whenever we were at the former NTC Orlando for activities we could not wear CAC 'deodorant strings' - ahem, shoulder cords - while on base, especially the red ones, since that was the badge of office for Navy recruit training CPOs.

We've gone back and forth on that for years, and allowed them this year only for graduation.

Its an interesting point of conversation, but not necessarily a valid reason not to wear it.  Colors, cords, badges, pins, ribbons, etc., mean something different in every service  - somehow the seven uniformed services are able to get through the day with few people mistaking who their commander is, accidently saluting someone inappropriately, or relinquishing command to the base Fire Captain (wearing metal tracks) - millions of service members all over the world - but the Powers-that-be^® have come to believe that injecting a few thousand CAP members into that mix generates chaos on a biblical scale.

I acknowledge that some of that is due to bad actors in the CAP ranks, but one would like to believe that the most amazing, highly-trained, proficient military in the history of the planet could work things out locally and directly when people act like goobers, without throwing the whole deal under the bus.

[lordmonar]

I don't say this often.....well said Eclipse!  :clap:

[Patterson]

I do not understand this thread.  In Table 1-1 of CAPM 39-1 it states:

visiting military installations. Members will make every effort to
comply with local installation uniform policy. If policy is not
known, the CAP-USAF state director or the installation's public
affairs office may be contacted for guidance.

THEN you have this found in AFI 10-2701

1.5. Actions on Military Installations. When on military Installations or other government facilities,
CAP personnel will adhere to the regulations and policies of the Installation or facility. Installation or
facility commanders may remove or bar entry of individual CAP members in accordance with established
procedures.

So, it seems clear that the Officer commanding a Military Installation of any kind has the authority to dictate what will and will not be worn by CAP members. 

If the Colonel Commanding an Air Force Station says "All personnel must now wear a beret".....well, as a CAP member we have to wear a beret.

Don't let your feelings about the beret itself dictate your response to this question.  The wording is clear, and has existed for many, many years.  As a CAP member if you were told to wear a Beret when you attend a meeting on "Anyname Air Force Base" and you don't agree with it.....well you are free to leave. 

[raivo]

If the Colonel Commanding an Air Force Station says "All personnel must now wear a beret".....well, as a CAP member we have to wear a beret.

Don't let your feelings about the beret itself dictate your response to this question.  The wording is clear, and has existed for many, many years.  As a CAP member if you were told to wear a Beret when you attend a meeting on "Anyname Air Force Base" and you don't agree with it.....well you are free to leave.

Which is never going to happen, so I have no idea why there's even a discussion about it.

You might as well argue whether pigs with wings would have to be equipped with transponders when flying in class B airspace. Who cares? It's not happening.

[lordmonar]

I do not understand this thread.  In Table 1-1 of CAPM 39-1 it states:

visiting military installations. Members will make every effort to
comply with local installation uniform policy. If policy is not
known, the CAP-USAF state director or the installation's public
affairs office may be contacted for guidance.

THEN you have this found in AFI 10-2701

1.5. Actions on Military Installations. When on military Installations or other government facilities,
CAP personnel will adhere to the regulations and policies of the Installation or facility. Installation or
facility commanders may remove or bar entry of individual CAP members in accordance with established
procedures.

So, it seems clear that the Officer commanding a Military Installation of any kind has the authority to dictate what will and will not be worn by CAP members. 

If the Colonel Commanding an Air Force Station says "All personnel must now wear a beret".....well, as a CAP member we have to wear a beret.

Don't let your feelings about the beret itself dictate your response to this question.  The wording is clear, and has existed for many, many years.  As a CAP member if you were told to wear a Beret when you attend a meeting on "Anyname Air Force Base" and you don't agree with it.....well you are free to leave.

On one level you are correct....but on the USAF level the base commander does not have the authority to do such a thing.  That is the point.  If the base commander said "blues only on monday"....we could and would do that.  If the base commander said "Service CAP only on blues mondays" we could not do that....the base commander could say that to his USAF personnel but because the service cap is not authorised for enlisted cadets (except Honor Guard) he cannot legally order us to wear it....nor could the CAP Wing CC order us to wear it in order to help us meet the base commanders expectations.  We would be at a legal impass.

[Patterson]

^ Do that and you may find yourself expelled from accessing that installation. 

It is Black and White (the words that I referenced).  The Air Force has every and all right to dictate to CAP members entering any Air Force facility. 

Now, would that ever happen.....hugely doubtful.  But it is not at all impossible. 

Reflective belts while conducting PT between 5AM and 7AM as well as 7Pm and 9PM at my Base is enforced by the Security Police.  We had to spend Squadron Funds making sure all of the Cadets have access to a reflective belt to meet the Base Commanders order.

So, instead of giving up our home, and telling the AF "you can't do that to us, we have our own regulations", we followed Air Force orders.

So simple.  Again, it is a possibility, will it ever happen (AF Colonel ordering berets) not a chance.  However take the word beret out and add "reflective belt" and yes....it did happen, and does happen. 

[Hawk200]

Wear of a reflective belt is a safety issue, not an appearance issue. A beret is not intended to keep a person from harm. Members of other branches of service may be assigned or have temporary duty at a base, and would be required to meet the same safety directives as the personnel assigned to the installation.

As far as a beret for CAP personnel goes, a savvy commander would reference CAP directives. Since most bases have a liaison assigned (usually as an additional duty), this would take very little time to accomplish. About the only reference he/she would find would be the wing commander's allowance for it. They would most likely request to see a written authorization for the item. If it couldn't be provided, they would have a legitimate issue. I'm certain that if a base commander were to call National Headquarters, they would probably have something ironed out rather quickly.

Base commanders aren't going to arbitrarily set uniform requirements for all personnel assigned to an installation. For one, additional uniform items that are over and above what's directed in the service's uniform publication would require the item to be issued. A reflective belt isn't a uniform item, and it's a minor purchase. And considering how many people purchase optional uniform items, this isn't too much to ask.

Secondly, the commander would have a great deal of difficulty mandating additional items for other branches of service. How would an air base commander get away with requiring soldiers, sailors, and Marines to wear something not required by their branch?

Most commanders are a lot more intelligent than this "Well, a base commander could say..." They're not going to "just say." It's a useless argument. Why don't we give the unrealistic arguments a rest?

[Eclipse]

So simple.  Again, it is a possibility, will it ever happen (AF Colonel ordering berets) not a chance.  However take the word beret out and add "reflective belt" and yes....it did happen, and does happen.

Take the word "beret" out and replace it with "safety belt" and its an entirely different conversation.

[Short Field]

Most commanders are a lot more intelligent than this "Well, a base commander could say..." They're not going to "just say." It's a useless argument. Why don't we give the unrealistic arguments a rest?

Really.  :clap:  Base Commanders don't get to be Base Commanders by making dumb decisions. Once they are Base Commanders, they have JAGs and staffs to keep their decisions from being stupid.

[JK657]

What does the beret show that a ribbon or badge could not do?

[Hawk200]

What does the beret show that a ribbon or badge could not do?

Only a specific activity.

[JK657]

I never wore a beret when I was in CAP but I did in AFJROTC. I wore it because it made me look "tough"... It made me look hardcore, squared away... at least I thought. Berets have a reputation of  eliteness now due to the hard work and dedication of those that have served.  Want to recognize something special? make a ribbon or badge and leave the berets out of it.