So are we going to have to start wearing the new ABU's? I really dont like that uniform, just like I dont like my own ACU's that I have to wear.
I think when the AF gets the logistics down. If you don't like the ABU's, you can wear the BBDU's :(
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 25, 2007, 05:52:59 PM
So are we going to have to start wearing the new ABU's? I really dont like that uniform, just like I dont like my own ACU's that I have to wear.
]
Don't worry, ACU's grow on you. Some say like a fungus, but you get used to them.
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 25, 2007, 06:28:58 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 25, 2007, 05:52:59 PM
So are we going to have to start wearing the new ABU's? I really dont like that uniform, just like I dont like my own ACU's that I have to wear.
]
Don't worry, ACU's grow on you. Some say like a fungus, but you get used to them.
If I were enlisted, I wouldnt care. But as an Army Officer, they took branch insignia away. Its an army tradition for officers to wear branch insignia and colors. It dates back to the Civil War. Just like people always hear about the pride and tradition the Marine Corps have, the army has it as well, its just not as publisized.
So if I rejoin CAP, do I by BDU's or ABU's??????????
BDU's because ABUs won't be authorized for CAP for probably five years minimum
Quote from: BillB on December 25, 2007, 07:47:36 PM
BDU's because ABUs won't be authorized for CAP for probably five years minimum
The key word is- say it with me- probably. Truth is, we don't know when. Some have said sometime next year- 2008, and others, as stated above- not for another 5. It's just waiting on AF to tells us when.
Yes. Pleas dont jump the gun like some of you did witht he whole "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" nametapes. I never even purchased those things and glad I didnt waste the money
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 25, 2007, 11:16:09 PM
Yes. Pleas dont jump the gun like some of you did witht he whole "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" nametapes. I never even purchased those things and glad I didnt waste the money
Who "jumped the gun?" They were and are still authorized, and likely will be for at least calendar 2008 as a sundown, this assumes that the board changes anything in February.
As to the ABUs, engage your grain of salt on this, but they will most likely be in our camp by 2009, with a mandatory of 2011. Don't spend money based on the above sentence, but my source is pretty good on this.
What hasn't been decided yet, or even discussed publicly, is what color tapes they will have, but I woudl bet money they are white on blue, the same as our existing.
To be honest, I would hope we never switch over to the ABU.
It's great and all that we would look like the USAF, but the uniforms we have work just fine for our purposes. If we don't waste our time putting a uniform that's done us good for years into the junkyard, we can still get a lot of use out of what we have without worrying about yet ANOTHER uniform change, especially on such a major level.
I personally like the uniform set-up we have now. If we do change to the ABU, I would hope that it would be gradual, as in, "when you physically run out of BDU's, then you can change over."
Quote from: Nathan on December 25, 2007, 11:39:58 PM
To be honest, I would hope we never switch over to the ABU.
It's great and all that we would look like the USAF, but the uniforms we have work just fine for our purposes. If we don't waste our time putting a uniform that's done us good for years into the junkyard, we can still get a lot of use out of what we have without worrying about yet ANOTHER uniform change, especially on such a major level.
I personally like the uniform set-up we have now. If we do change to the ABU, I would hope that it would be gradual, as in, "when you physically run out of BDU's, then you can change over."
You're under the misimpression we wear uniforms because they work for us. That's not the case. The AF funds a military based program that meets THEIR objectives. What works for THEM is allowing us to use their uniform items so surplus can be given over to keep the costs down for cadets & allow everyone to participate regardless of socioeconomic status. It being convenient for you or anyone else is not important.
Keep in mind that we have the BDUs until the surplus runs out and then we will have to transition to the ABU. No other branch uses the BDUs anymore so the manufacturers out there will probably switch over to the ABU. Necessity is what determines what we were.
Quote from: mmouw on December 26, 2007, 12:23:34 AM
Keep in mind that we have the BDUs until the surplus runs out and then we will have to transition to the ABU. No other branch uses the BDUs anymore so the manufacturers out there will probably switch over to the ABU. Necessity is what determines what we were.
According to what the Manager of the Clothing Sales at March ARB, CA has told me. There used to be three manufacturers of BDU's. As of October 1, two of them are now making ABU's exclusively. The third one is supposed to change over at the end of their current contract which expires next September.
Anybody want to take a sidebet on how long it will take the supply system to run out of new BDU's?
I predict, and this is just my personal prediction, that we will be authorized to wear the ABU in 2009 because there won't be any BDU's left in the system.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 25, 2007, 11:29:45 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 25, 2007, 11:16:09 PM
Yes. Pleas dont jump the gun like some of you did witht he whole "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" nametapes. I never even purchased those things and glad I didnt waste the money
Who "jumped the gun?" They were and are still authorized, and likely will be for at least calendar 2008 as a sundown, this assumes that the board changes anything in February.
As to the ABUs, engage your grain of salt on this, but they will most likely be in our camp by 2009, with a mandatory of 2011. Don't spend money based on the above sentence, but my source is pretty good on this.
What hasn't been decided yet, or even discussed publicly, is what color tapes they will have, but I woudl bet money they are white on blue, the same as our existing.
Dont worry. I am not buying anything until I get a memo from NHQ directing me too
Quote from: PHall on December 26, 2007, 01:00:01 AMAnybody want to take a sidebet on how long it will take the supply system to run out of new BDU's?
The supply system is already running gout of new BDU's. There was a major shortage across the nation this summer and it was only alleviated because the ABUs hit the shelves.
As for the DRMO supply of BDU's.....that is very quickly going away...the Army is the only one doing one for one swaps and they converted to ACU's two years ago.
As I have said before....this is a great opportunity for CAP to finally get uniformed and go exclusively BBDU.
What >will< be nice, for those of you who are in the USAF/AG, etc., is that you'll be able to wear your duty uniforms for CAP by just changing the tapes.
So now for blues and field uniforms, everything will be interchangeable with pins or velcro.
ABUs have sewn on insignia... You are confusing them with ACUs again.
Quote from: MIKE on December 26, 2007, 02:21:29 AM
ABUs have sewn on insignia... You are confusing them with ACUs again.
>:(
Quote from: lordmonar on December 26, 2007, 02:05:30 AM
The supply system is already running gout of new BDU's. There was a major shortage across the nation this summer and it was only alleviated because the ABUs hit the shelves.
I wouldn't say it was alleviated. I know of several people here that needed to replace uniforms and couldn't. BDUs were out of stock with AAFES uncertain of when they might be getting more in. And the supply of ABUs was equally scarce as people snatched them off the shelves as soon as they came it. I was in the MCSS the other day and the ABU shelves were
empty. They only had about half the BDU shelves full. It's been that way here for months now.
Know what you mean....the ABU shelves are pretty full here at Nellis, but I was recently at Cannon AFB and they had NOTHING....no ABUs or BDUs.
Quote from: mmouw on December 26, 2007, 12:23:34 AM
Keep in mind that we have the BDUs until the surplus runs out and then we will have to transition to the ABU. No other branch uses the BDUs anymore so the manufacturers out there will probably switch over to the ABU. Necessity is what determines what we were.
I think you overstate it. The old woodlands arent going anywhere as long as they remain the fabric of choice for third world dictators and their bodyguards and deer hunters. I recently met with a representative from Propper and they have no plans to discontinue woodlands BDUs or other items using the pattern any time in the next decade, so there will be a source for them. Im always a little confused by this argument. My local uniform shop has woodlands BDUs in every conceivable fabric (ie ripstop, ECW, etc) from floor to ceiling. Woodlands aint going anywhere. Perhaps out of the government sector, but when a simple google search still turns up dozens of sources for VietNam era tiger stripes, I dont think you have anything to worry about. Now, if you take into account that there is absolutely no reason from us to be wearing woodlands, thats a different story. If you look at it historically, desert boots and tricolors just about took over after 1991.
There's plenty up in the big base by me, (except for those weird hats).
Also, as the BDU's come off the active guys, the DRMO's are getting slammed full of them. One of the things we're having no issues getting are BDU uniforms.
Not to mention the fact that with proper care, good-quality BDU's will last CAP people forever. These things are designed for every-day wear in combat theaters, vs. the average CAP member who wears them a couple hours a week, and gets them dirty maybe 2-3 times a year.
If an AD-guy with 4 sets wears a pair 1-2 times a week, say 16 hours per, vs. one meeting a week and 3 bivouacs for CAP, we get 3-4 years wear for every year of AD use.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 26, 2007, 04:11:50 AM
Also, as the BDU's come off the active guys, the DRMO's are getting slammed full of them.
How so? The active duty Air Force folks don't turn them into DRMO generally. ???
So what you do is beat the system.
Go to the units and tell them who you are, why you want their uniforms, and ask to set up Uniform donation buckets. You will get some trash, but you also could be highly surprised.
Watch the windfall.
Quote from: shorning on December 26, 2007, 05:06:32 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on December 26, 2007, 04:11:50 AM
Also, as the BDU's come off the active guys, the DRMO's are getting slammed full of them.
How so? The active duty Air Force folks don't turn them into DRMO generally. ???
The only time BDU's went to DRMO is if you bombed out of BMT.
And they stopped issueing BDU's at BMT on Sept 30. As of Oct 1 all they issue now is ABU's.
Quote from: PHall on December 26, 2007, 05:15:41 AM
Quote from: shorning on December 26, 2007, 05:06:32 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on December 26, 2007, 04:11:50 AM
Also, as the BDU's come off the active guys, the DRMO's are getting slammed full of them.
How so? The active duty Air Force folks don't turn them into DRMO generally. ???
The only time BDU's went to DRMO is if you bombed out of BMT.
And they stopped issueing BDU's at BMT on Sept 30. As of Oct 1 all they issue now is ABU's.
Wouldn't you just hate being that last guy?
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on December 26, 2007, 05:14:03 AM
So what you do is beat the system.
Go to the units and tell them who you are, why you want their uniforms, and ask to set up Uniform donation buckets. You will get some trash, but you also could be highly surprised.
Watch the windfall.
Don't bet on it. Usually when somebody is done with a set of BDU's, they're worn out.
The Air Force is not making a big sudden change to the ABU. The supply system would not be able to support that.
It's gonna happen over a period of three years or so.
I know in the Guard/Reserve, if you tried to turn in a serviceable set of BDU's just to get a set of ABU's, and you're not deploying, it won't happen.
Those uniforms come out of a unit's budget and they're not going to pay to replace serviceable uniforms just because somebody wants to look "cool".
Quote from: PHall on December 26, 2007, 05:22:18 AM
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on December 26, 2007, 05:14:03 AM
So what you do is beat the system.
Go to the units and tell them who you are, why you want their uniforms, and ask to set up Uniform donation buckets. You will get some trash, but you also could be highly surprised.
Watch the windfall.
Don't bet on it. Usually when somebody is done with a set of BDU's, they're worn out.
The Air Force is not making a big sudden change to the ABU. The supply system would not be able to support that.
It's gonna happen over a period of three years or so.
I know in the Guard/Reserve, if you tried to turn in a serviceable set of BDU's just to get a set of ABU's, and you're not deploying, it won't happen.
Those uniforms come out of a unit's budget and they're not going to pay to replace serviceable uniforms just because somebody wants to look "cool".
I will guarantee 100% you will get nothing if you don't ask. Heck you still may get that same response if you do ask, but as least you are asking.
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on December 26, 2007, 05:14:03 AM
So what you do is beat the system.
Go to the units and tell them who you are, why you want their uniforms, and ask to set up Uniform donation buckets. You will get some trash, but you also could be highly surprised.
Watch the windfall.
And what happens next year?
The point being....yes now we can get BDUs surplus and we can probably be able to buy new BDU for years to come.....but the "used" market that everyone loves so much will be dried up in 1-2 years.
If we are going to go to a commercial vendor for BDU's why not just go to that same vendor for BBDU's?
Quote from: lordmonar on December 26, 2007, 06:16:54 AM
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on December 26, 2007, 05:14:03 AM
So what you do is beat the system.
Go to the units and tell them who you are, why you want their uniforms, and ask to set up Uniform donation buckets. You will get some trash, but you also could be highly surprised.
Watch the windfall.
And what happens next year?
The point being....yes now we can get BDUs surplus and we can probably be able to buy new BDU for years to come.....but the "used" market that everyone loves so much will be dried up in 1-2 years.
If we are going to go to a commercial vendor for BDU's why not just go to that same vendor for BBDU's?
Good point in which I do not have the answer. I say we call propper and get a deal working.
Then again, when we get into the new uniform ( you all know we will) this will be a moot point.
I expect the civilian interest in BDUs to dry up within about 5 years after USAF transitions out.
The paramilitary types tend to want to wear whatever the RM is wearing (although in different colors).
I've already seen Army-style ACUs in weird colors. My guess is that weird color MARPATs and ABUs won't be far behind.
We've got time, but just like the 'ol pickle suit, it WILL die out. No one wants to be wearing the "old stuff."
Probably Propper will end up producing Blue ABUs!
Quote from: Dragoon on December 26, 2007, 07:20:47 PM
Probably Propper will end up producing Blue ABUs!
Wouldn't take much. It's little more than a modified BDU with an Air Force specialized name to it. The Air Force is actually pushing the ABU as a "weapons system". Funny considering that they aren't all that different from what the Air Force has been wearing for the last 19 years.
Not to mention that some folks prefer to purchase "new" rather than used. I prefer new as is seems there often is something wrong with used stuff...seems splitting, edges curlings, worn areas, etc.
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 26, 2007, 08:21:06 PM
Quote from: Dragoon on December 26, 2007, 07:20:47 PM
Probably Propper will end up producing Blue ABUs!
Wouldn't take much. It's little more than a modified BDU with an Air Force specialized name to it. The Air Force is actually pushing the ABU as a "weapons system". Funny considering that they aren't all that different from what the Air Force has been wearing for the last 19 years.
Propper alread makes ACUs in different colors....including blue!
Quote from: lordmonar on December 27, 2007, 12:26:55 AM
Propper alread makes ACUs in different colors....including blue!
I've seen them. But a blue BDU isn't going to be that much different from a blue ABU. The ABU is basically a rehashed BDU, it really isn't that much different.
ACU's however, are a horse of a different color.
ACUs and ABUs share basically the same colors. The only difference, colorwise, is the addition of "slate blue" to the ABU.
Quote from: WWIntel on December 28, 2007, 02:37:18 AM
ACUs and ABUs share basically the same colors. The only difference, colorwise, is the addition of "slate blue" to the ABU.
The camo colors are very similar. The uniforms themselves are drastically different.
The ABU is basically a modified BDU. The ACU is a completely different design from any other tactical uniform in existance. There are sleeve pockets, angled chest pockets, Velcro for insignia, it closes up in the front with a zipper, and the collar is a "Mandarin" type that covers the throat area.
The uniforms may look similar in color, but the patterns themselves are highly unique.
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 28, 2007, 03:26:37 AM
Quote from: WWIntel on December 28, 2007, 02:37:18 AM
ACUs and ABUs share basically the same colors. The only difference, colorwise, is the addition of "slate blue" to the ABU.
The camo colors are very similar. The uniforms themselves are drastically different.
The ABU is basically a modified BDU. The ACU is a completely different design from any other tactical uniform in existence. There are sleeve pockets, angled chest pockets, Velcro for insignia, it closes up in the front with a zipper, and the collar is a "Mandarin" type that covers the throat area.
The uniforms may look similar in color, but the patterns themselves are highly unique.
Speaking with many AF folks who wore ACU's and now wear ABU's, many would prefer to continue wearing the ACU's. The ACU was designed for the modern battlefield, the AF designed their uniform for garrison wear and tear (as in wash and dry, no iron needed)
ABU:
(http://www.af.mil/shared/media/ggallery/hires/AFG-070509-005.jpg)
ACU:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/Army_Combat_Uniform.jpg/414px-Army_Combat_Uniform.jpg)
MARPAT:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Hagee_in_MARPAT_with_Soldier.jpg)
NWU:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9e/New_US_navy_Working_Uniform.jpg/693px-New_US_navy_Working_Uniform.jpg)
Here's the ABU mixed in with the ACU.
(http://captalk.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3859.0;attach=1440)
Quote from: mikeylikey on December 28, 2007, 03:30:47 AMSpeaking with many AF folks who wore ACU's and now wear ABU's, many would prefer to continue wearing the ACU's. The ACU was designed for the modern battlefield, the AF designed their uniform for garrison wear and tear (as in wash and dry, no iron needed)
I still think that's one of the stupidest mistakes the AF made. Let the guys working with the Army wear their uniform. The guy in the team that stands out on the battlefield tends to get shot first.
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 28, 2007, 03:36:42 AM
Quote from: mikeylikey on December 28, 2007, 03:30:47 AMSpeaking with many AF folks who wore ACU's and now wear ABU's, many would prefer to continue wearing the ACU's. The ACU was designed for the modern battlefield, the AF designed their uniform for garrison wear and tear (as in wash and dry, no iron needed)
I still think that's one of the stupidest mistakes the AF made. Let the guys working with the Army wear their uniform. The guy in the team that stands out on the battlefield tends to get shot first.
Oh, please... Take a look at the picture Stonewall posted and tell me how the AF guy "stands out." Add the battle rattle and the only difference will be sewn on stripes for NCO's.
^ So here is the question.......why the crap didn't the AF just borrow the ACU design? It would save the taxpayers $$, as well as forgo useless wear testing and introdcutions on the AF's part. Heck they wore them when they went overseas for the past 3 years and worked with the Army. There is no reason the "Sister Services" should not be wearing the same combat uniform.
Ask yourself, in the next three years is the AF going to find itself in combat on the ground away from the army? Answere....NO! They could have taken the ACU, and changed the "A" to an "A" to mean "Air Force".
When I am SecDEF.....all services will once again be in one combat uniform. The only thing that should be different about military uniforms is the specific dress uniform of each Service.
Not that any of this matters......Officers are required to buy all of their uniforms, Enlisted get them from the Taxpayers. (However, AAFES did alter my Service jacket for free, so I guess I can say the Taxpayers bought that one for me!)
Quote from: ddelaney103 on December 28, 2007, 03:42:47 AM
Oh, please... Take a look at the picture Stonewall posted and tell me how the AF guy "stands out." Add the battle rattle and the only difference will be sewn on stripes for NCO's.
You can "Oh, please" all you want. I can still tell the difference.
Then again, I had an LT ask me why I sewed pocket zippers on my ACU. I was wearing an A2CU at the time. The thing that really strikes me funny is that he wears the A2CU on occasion as well.
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 28, 2007, 03:51:32 AM
Quote from: ddelaney103 on December 28, 2007, 03:42:47 AM
Oh, please... Take a look at the picture Stonewall posted and tell me how the AF guy "stands out." Add the battle rattle and the only difference will be sewn on stripes for NCO's.
You can "Oh, please" all you want. I can still tell the difference.
Then again, I had an LT ask me why I sewed pocket zippers on my ACU. I was wearing an A2CU at the time. The thing that really strikes me funny is that he wears the A2CU on occasion as well.
Freaking Lieutenants!
Quote from: mikeylikey on December 28, 2007, 03:43:08 AMWhen I am SecDEF.....
I'll be Agent in Charge of your protections detail :)
Just FYI, the Air Force, at this time, is using the Army's ACU patter on it's gear. You may have old gear, but if you fly across the pond and are issued some sort of body armor, MOLLE gear or whatever, it'll be in the ACU digital pattern.
A new set of gear is being R&D'd called DF-LCS (Defensor Fortis - Load Carrying System). In the information I researched and email I got from an AF Security Forces O-6, they confirm that the ACU pattern is what we'll be using until someone in the AF makes a decision.
Quote from: mikeylikey on December 28, 2007, 03:43:08 AM
^ So here is the question.......why the crap didn't the AF just borrow the ACU design?
There are probably many reasons given. I think that the honest truth is that the Air Force had to have their own design.
They could have gone with tan boots, which would have made them available at any AAFES in the world. But they went with green so they would have their own design.
Quote from: Stonewall on December 28, 2007, 03:53:27 AM
Quote from: mikeylikey on December 28, 2007, 03:43:08 AMWhen I am SecDEF.....
I'll be Agent in Charge of your protections detail :)
Your Hired!
I did hear about the new AF equipment. They did have some info awhile back on AF Portal about that. There is no reason not to share gear. Especially body armor, belts etc.
I would be all in favor of combining the services procurement and development into one big organization like it was pre-1960. We fight future wars as one team, lets dress and be equipped like it.
Walking into my FDC 4 years ago, my AF buddies next door had an Air Conditioner going. I thought to myself, "Man I would love to get myself some of that AF equipment". ;D
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 28, 2007, 03:36:42 AM
Quote from: mikeylikey on December 28, 2007, 03:30:47 AMSpeaking with many AF folks who wore ACU's and now wear ABU's, many would prefer to continue wearing the ACU's. The ACU was designed for the modern battlefield, the AF designed their uniform for garrison wear and tear (as in wash and dry, no iron needed)
I still think that's one of the stupidest mistakes the AF made. Let the guys working with the Army wear their uniform. The guy in the team that stands out on the battlefield tends to get shot first.
If the bad guys are close enough to tell the difference between ABUs and ACUs you are already in a world of hurt.....
See the picture below.
I can tell you from experince....while shopping for ABU's at clothing sales....I accidentally picked up an ACU cap and it was the cashier who caught it before I paid for it. :)
Quote from: mikeylikey on December 28, 2007, 03:43:08 AM
^ So here is the question.......why the crap didn't the AF just borrow the ACU design? It would save the taxpayers $$, as well as forgo useless wear testing and introdcutions on the AF's part.
Well then you have to go and ask the Marines that. They started it when they decided that BDUs where not good for them. THEY started the distinctive uniform stuff.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 28, 2007, 04:40:04 AM
Quote from: mikeylikey on December 28, 2007, 03:43:08 AM
^ So here is the question.......why the crap didn't the AF just borrow the ACU design? It would save the taxpayers $$, as well as forgo useless wear testing and introdcutions on the AF's part.
Well then you have to go and ask the Marines that. They started it when they decided that BDUs where not good for them. THEY started the distinctive uniform stuff.
True......but if I go do that, I may get beat up! :'(
Quote from: Stonewall on December 28, 2007, 03:35:03 AM
Here's the ABU mixed in with the ACU.
(http://captalk.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3859.0;attach=1440)
Man, thats a lot of freaking stars in one place.
Quote from: mikeylikey on December 28, 2007, 03:30:47 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 28, 2007, 03:26:37 AM
Quote from: WWIntel on December 28, 2007, 02:37:18 AM
ACUs and ABUs share basically the same colors. The only difference, colorwise, is the addition of "slate blue" to the ABU.
The camo colors are very similar. The uniforms themselves are drastically different.
The ABU is basically a modified BDU. The ACU is a completely different design from any other tactical uniform in existence. There are sleeve pockets, angled chest pockets, Velcro for insignia, it closes up in the front with a zipper, and the collar is a "Mandarin" type that covers the throat area.
The uniforms may look similar in color, but the patterns themselves are highly unique.
Speaking with many AF folks who wore ACU's and now wear ABU's, many would prefer to continue wearing the ACU's. The ACU was designed for the modern battlefield, the AF designed their uniform for garrison wear and tear (as in wash and dry, no iron needed)
Just curious. When and where did you see AF people wearing ACU's? I have never seen this. When I deployed I wason an AF base and they all stil wore desert BDU's .
To be honest, for the military (not CAP) I like the ABU's better than the ACU's
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 28, 2007, 04:54:18 AM
Just curious. When and where did you see AF people wearing ACU's? I have never seen this. When I deployed I wason an AF base and they all stil wore desert BDU's .
To be honest, for the military (not CAP) I like the ABU's better than the ACU's
TACP's attached to Army units wear the ACU. And you won't find them on an Air Force Base, try looking where the Army units are at.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 28, 2007, 04:54:18 AMJust curious. When and where did you see AF people wearing ACU's? I have never seen this. When I deployed I wason an AF base and they all stil wore desert BDU's .
To be honest, for the military (not CAP) I like the ABU's better than the ACU's
Here's my buddy in the Horn of Africa. He's an Air Force Pararescueman wearing ACUs.
(http://captalk.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3880.0;attach=1445)
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 28, 2007, 04:54:18 AM
Quote from: mikeylikey on December 28, 2007, 03:30:47 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 28, 2007, 03:26:37 AM
Quote from: WWIntel on December 28, 2007, 02:37:18 AM
ACUs and ABUs share basically the same colors. The only difference, colorwise, is the addition of "slate blue" to the ABU.
The camo colors are very similar. The uniforms themselves are drastically different.
The ABU is basically a modified BDU. The ACU is a completely different design from any other tactical uniform in existence. There are sleeve pockets, angled chest pockets, Velcro for insignia, it closes up in the front with a zipper, and the collar is a "Mandarin" type that covers the throat area.
The uniforms may look similar in color, but the patterns themselves are highly unique.
Speaking with many AF folks who wore ACU's and now wear ABU's, many would prefer to continue wearing the ACU's. The ACU was designed for the modern battlefield, the AF designed their uniform for garrison wear and tear (as in wash and dry, no iron needed)
Just curious. When and where did you see AF people wearing ACU's? I have never seen this. When I deployed I was on an AF base and they all still wore desert BDU's .
To be honest, for the military (not CAP) I like the ABU's better than the ACU's
Ummm......in Iraq my second time and Afghanistan my first time. You will not see them wearing ACU's in the States, and I do believe only AF personnel assigned to Army were issued ACU's before arriving in theatre. Now they are issued ABU's. Specifically, I worked with an Air Battle Manager advising my Battery for 7 months, and he wore ACU's everyday.
Have you worn a set of ACU's? Do you currently wear ABU's? What makes the ABU better than the ACU?
For me;
1) mandarin collar so my neck does not become irritated.
2) slanted pockets that are accessible through the armor
3) pockets that are convenient to my hands
4) fabric quality (sand does not work its way through)
5) fabric weight
6) more comfortable fit when running
I can go on, but I am tired and those are the main things I like about ACU's.
Quote from: mikeylikey on December 28, 2007, 05:09:48 AMHave you worn a set of ACU's? Do you currently wear ABU's? What makes the ABU better than the ACU?
For me;
1) mandarin collar so my neck does not become irritated.
2) slanted pockets that are accessible through the armor
3) pockets that are convenient to my hands
4) fabric quality (sand does not work its way through)
5) fabric weight
6) more comfortable fit when running
I have a pair of ACUs and I've worn ABUs while I was trying them on. I can tell, just from the few minutes I had ABUs on, ACUs are 10x more functional for the warrior on the ground. ABUs are no different than BDUs, except for a much much much thicker material, color, and a pent pocket on the sleeve and lower leg. Lower pockets on the ABU top are still worthless and are there solely for style, which means you can't tuck your blouse in if you want to in the field.
Trust me, the ABUs may look better to some, but I have yet to find a fellow airman who is wearing ABUs who likes them. I'm not talking intel or supply guys working in A/C. I'm talking fellow Security Police, PJs, TACPs, etc.
Both the ACU and ABU are "works in progress." They'll be big changes (the combat shirts) and smaller changes (lighter weight shirts for the ABU) coming down the line before long.
Quote from: ddelaney103 on December 28, 2007, 05:21:16 AM
They'll be big changes (the combat shirts) and smaller changes (lighter weight shirts for the ABU) coming down the line before long.
Heck yeah. Saw those on front cover of AF Times. I'm looking forward to those. Hope to get them before I deploy.
Quote from: ddelaney103 on December 28, 2007, 05:21:16 AM
Both the ACU and ABU are "works in progress." They'll be big changes (the combat shirts) and smaller changes (lighter weight shirts for the ABU) coming down the line before long.
Talking about the ABU, hopefully they'll incorporate some of the suggestions that have been coming in from the field.
i.e. Lighter weight material, either smaller stripes on the sleeves or no stripes on sleeves but wear your rank on your chest like the ACU does, etc...
It's almost like they need two different shirts. One for the folks who don't go outside the wire and one for those who do go outside the wire that is much more "body armour friendly".
Oh well, we shall see.
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 28, 2007, 03:26:37 AM
Quote from: WWIntel on December 28, 2007, 02:37:18 AM
ACUs and ABUs share basically the same colors. The only difference, colorwise, is the addition of "slate blue" to the ABU.
The camo colors are very similar. The uniforms themselves are drastically different.
The ABU is basically a modified BDU. The ACU is a completely different design from any other tactical uniform in existance. There are sleeve pockets, angled chest pockets, Velcro for insignia, it closes up in the front with a zipper, and the collar is a "Mandarin" type that covers the throat area.
The uniforms may look similar in color, but the patterns themselves are highly unique.
In your original post, you said that the "ACU's however, are a horse of a different color" in comparison to the ABUs. Pattern-wise and design-wise, they are different, color-wise, not really. I see soldiers and airmen in ACUs and ABUs every day and, at distance, it is difficult to tell the two apart. The giveaway would probably the color of the boots. There have even been instances on my base where AF NCOs go to chase down a soldier wearing ACUs and a woodland gore-tex parka (authorized) thinking it was an airman wearing ABUs and a woodland gore-tex parka (not authorized).
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 28, 2007, 04:54:18 AM
Just curious. When and where did you see AF people wearing ACU's? I have never seen this. When I deployed I wason an AF base and they all stil wore desert BDU's .
To be honest, for the military (not CAP) I like the ABU's better than the ACU's
I saw them at AUAB on the way into Iraq back in Jul 06. An ALO and his TACPs on our chalk had them on. The rest of us were wearing DCUs.
Quote from: mikeylikey on December 28, 2007, 05:09:48 AM
Ummm......in Iraq my second time and Afghanistan my first time. You will not see them wearing ACU's in the States, and I do believe only AF personnel assigned to Army were issued ACU's before arriving in theatre. Now they are issued ABU's. Specifically, I worked with an Air Battle Manager advising my Battery for 7 months, and he wore ACU's everyday.
Have you worn a set of ACU's? Do you currently wear ABU's? What makes the ABU better than the ACU?
For me;
1) mandarin collar so my neck does not become irritated.
2) slanted pockets that are accessible through the armor
3) pockets that are convenient to my hands
4) fabric quality (sand does not work its way through)
5) fabric weight
6) more comfortable fit when running
I can go on, but I am tired and those are the main things I like about ACU's.
Just about every Army soldier that I have talked to hates the ACU. Army guys that I worked with in the desert hated them and would have rather kept their DCUs. Almost universal among their grips was the velcro. It wears out fast. The sand/dirt and putting the uniforms through the wash make them just about useless. In fact, the first piece to usually go is the velcro on the mandarin collar. Strings hanging off the uniform are a common sight after putting them in the wash. The slanted pockets on the ACU chest and sleeves are somewhat moot while wearing IBA. All soldiers and airmen transiting into Iraq are now issued Interceptor OTVs with DAPs and side plates. With the DAPs on, you can't access the sleeve pockets. It's also tough to reach the chest pockets while you have all the battle rattle on. In addition, the fabric weight of the ACUs is significantly heavier than the DCUs. Guys would sweat through multiple sets of ACUs in a day in the 120 degree Baghdad heat.
Now being in Korea, the consensus is generally the same. I was in a training class with about 25 soldiers and the topic of ACUs came up. Everyone of them said they did not like them. They all would much rather go back to wearing BDUs.
Well, lets just hope that the ACU/ABU follows the legacy of the M-16, which was also considered a piece of (explative) when it was first fielded. Nobody like that little plastic red-headed step child either, but I have known many military friends who said they almost cried when, for whatever reason, their beloved M-16 was taken away and they were given an MP-5 or M-4 to play with. But now, I dont hear many (at least the friends I have in the sandbox currently) complaining about their new toys.
It seems to be a military trend that when first fielded, most equipment is considered garbage in its early stages until the kinks are worked out and some of it remains issued garbage to this day.
Granted I have no military experience, but it seems that moving away from the BDU was yet another case of something being fixed which was not broken. I have many friends who are still wearing their tri-colors and have a "they can have it when they pry it from my cold dead hands" attitude, though I remember when that switch was made and I dont think it was particularly popular at the time, though anything would have to be considered better than the oreo cookie suits.
Quote from: WWIntel on December 28, 2007, 09:36:29 AM
Now being in Korea, the consensus is generally the same. I was in a training class with about 25 soldiers and the topic of ACUs came up. Everyone of them said they did not like them. They all would much rather go back to wearing BDUs.
Really.....I am surprised. I would never go back to BDU's. In fact, I can't stand putting my CAP BDU's on. They just feel funny. I never had any wash or wear problems.
HOWEVER, the only problem I had was a small rip in the ass of my ACU's, but I traded them out and no big deal.
Now as for aesthetics......I hate the fact that the Officer Branch Insignia was removed in the transition to the ACU. I like to know what branch the Officer I am talking to is in. It was easy in BDU's to see what an Officer did by looking at his or her branch insignia and then deciding whether or not to waste time talking to him or her. Now I have to ask "what's your branch".
Quote from: WWIntel on December 28, 2007, 09:36:29 AM
In your original post, you said that the "ACU's however, are a horse of a different color" in comparison to the ABUs. Pattern-wise and design-wise, they are different, color-wise, not really.
I'm getting the idea that you're not familiar with that old expression. The saying implies that the base concept is the same (a tactical uniform), but the application is different.
The colors are not the issue. However, many people think that because the colors are similar, then they are the same uniform. They're not, not even close.
I can look at the two uniforms and tell a difference. I can tell the difference between ACU's and A2CU's by the color. They're supposed to be the same, but the fabric makes the shades subtly different.
But you can tell by other subtle differences of the uniforms themselves. Sleeve pockets, collars, boots, insignia. All minor things that add up, and set them apart. Many people don't think it's enough to be noticed. I guarantee that any enemy force is going to take note of those differences.
ROMADs, Weather, and the others that were wearing them blended in before. Now it's a simple case of "Close enough for government work". I don't think it would take a genius to figure out that the guy with that Infantry platoon carrying the radio is subtly different than the rest of the people with the team.
As for the ACU's, I've gotten used to them. A2CU's are growing on me, if not for the simple reason that I don't have any choice, I wear them or I don't fly.
Well as both former military, and a current taxpayer, I will say this:
WE NEED ONE FREAKING UNIFORM!
Quote from: LittleIronPilot on December 28, 2007, 06:56:46 PM
Well as both former military, and a current taxpayer, I will say this:
WE NEED ONE FREAKING UNIFORM!
One of the reasons for the multiple uniform options is because some people don't meet the weight or grooming standards to wear an AF uniform. So what should we tell all the Fat and Fuzzies they can't be in the program?
If that's the case you know what we'd loose a lot of members especially in the higher echilons.
Quote from: LittleIronPilot on December 28, 2007, 06:56:46 PM
Well as both former military, and a current taxpayer, I will say this:
WE NEED ONE FREAKING UNIFORM!
Oh, I took what he was saying to mean one uniform across the board for all the armed services. Instead of having a separate one for each branch which costs more money to design, wear test, and deploy.
I haven't been on here for quite a while, but I saw this and it peaked my interest. I am currently a cadet at West Point and one of the instructors was on the team that developed the ACU's for the Army. Most of the complaints that you will see in the ACU are that they don't work for specific situations very well. The army was trying to make one uniform that would work for every one. the pixilation is the same as the marine camo pattern, which is extremely effective. the only thing is that they army chose the color pattern that would work decent in every environment, unlike the marines that have multiple different color pallets. The Velcro came from soldier request. Although over time in the field i think most would rather go back to something more durable. It is true that the Velcro wears out quickly, I have found that to be especially true on the cargo pockets. The patches being Velcro were supposed to be cost saving over time. maybe not in the first year, with the cost of the patch being around 10 times more expensive, but over time less sewing is needed. also i have 5 sets of ACU's but only 2 sets of patches, more money saved. I hate the fact that the branch was taken off and most officers that i have talked to don't like it either, but it is something that is just for looks it doesn't effect how we fight. The big problem has been riping in the seat and crotch of the pants. The manufacture has already addressed the issue and the reinforced ACU trousers are now available to the best of my knowledge.
From what i know and have been told the ACU fixes a problem that didn't need to be fixed today, but what about tomorrow. Why not stay two steps a head of the enemy. Also while it might not be great in the visual spectrum check it out under IR. It works great in garrison, West Point cadets being in garrison for 9 months of the year means we like it, but the field does pose some problems. For the Army people out there be watching for some really cool new additions to the uniform, there are some great things coming down the pipe and some really cool things that are being tested right now. The instructors and cadets have been helping the designers a lot and have been doing some wear testing. We need to give up on going back to the BDU, and progress with the ACU and ABU. Both will need some more work, but both are good uniforms.
^ I have to disagree and say that ACU's work great in the field as well.
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 28, 2007, 05:40:50 PM
Quote from: WWIntel on December 28, 2007, 09:36:29 AM
In your original post, you said that the "ACU's however, are a horse of a different color" in comparison to the ABUs. Pattern-wise and design-wise, they are different, color-wise, not really.
I'm getting the idea that you're not familiar with that old expression. The saying implies that the base concept is the same (a tactical uniform), but the application is different.
The colors are not the issue. However, many people think that because the colors are similar, then they are the same uniform. They're not, not even close.
I can look at the two uniforms and tell a difference. I can tell the difference between ACU's and A2CU's by the color. They're supposed to be the same, but the fabric makes the shades subtly different.
But you can tell by other subtle differences of the uniforms themselves. Sleeve pockets, collars, boots, insignia. All minor things that add up, and set them apart. Many people don't think it's enough to be noticed. I guarantee that any enemy force is going to take note of those differences.
ROMADs, Weather, and the others that were wearing them blended in before. Now it's a simple case of "Close enough for government work". I don't think it would take a genius to figure out that the guy with that Infantry platoon carrying the radio is subtly different than the rest of the people with the team.
As for the ACU's, I've gotten used to them. A2CU's are growing on me, if not for the simple reason that I don't have any choice, I wear them or I don't fly.
You're right, I'm not familiar with that expression and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I also agree with you in that they are not the same uniform. In terms of blending in, do you think it's still an issue if an individual wearing ABUs had on ACU gear (i.e. IBA w/ DAPs, MICH/ACH, etc.)? The only thing visually different would be the pants and maybe the boots if the person decided to wear the green suede boots. Also, an unrelated question, but what do you fly?
Quote from: WWIntel on December 28, 2007, 10:54:37 PM
You're right, I'm not familiar with that expression and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.
No worries. It's a pretty old expression, and apparently has fallen into disuse. Just me showing my age, I guess.
Quote from: WWIntel on December 28, 2007, 10:54:37 PM
I also agree with you in that they are not the same uniform. In terms of blending in, do you think it's still an issue if an individual wearing ABUs had on ACU gear (i.e. IBA w/ DAPs, MICH/ACH, etc.)? The only thing visually different would be the pants and maybe the boots if the person decided to wear the green suede boots.
I can tell subtle differences between a lot shades, but if you go putting two different camo patterns on a single body, it's gonna be a little obvious to more people. They're just different.
Not one I normally think about, but another issue was that whenever Airmen were provided (such as ILO's) or directly supported (such as ROMAD's, Weather, and I think CCT's and PJ's) the Army, then the Army was responsible for all logistics for those personnel. That means they had to supply everything from what that airman wore, where they slept, and what they ate. For the Army, it was a simple matter of "We had to order the special rank insignia, but here's your ACU's." It made much of the logistics much simpler. Now the Air Force personnel supporting the Army have some more hassles when it comes to service specific uniforms. And potentially some non-availability of items issues.
Quote from: WWIntel on December 28, 2007, 10:54:37 PM
Also, an unrelated question, but what do you fly?
I'm not a pilot, if that's what you're asking, but I fly
on Blackhawks as aircrew. As aircrew, I have to wear the same Nomex and survival gear as the pilots (Actually, I have to wear another hard plate in my body armor, as my seat backs aren't ballistic.) The A2CU's are a wierd meld of the flightsuit and ACU's, and they don't wear like either one. They've taken a little getting used to.
I'm all for this uniform for USA and USAF:
General shape and cut of the current ACU with slanted pockets on breast, cargo pockets on arms and 4 cargo pockets on legs. Mandarin Collar (buttoned) with zipper replaced by buttons. Sew on nametapes and branch tapes. Velcro patches on shoulders and IR pocket. Multicam pattern. Current fabric with reinforced seat and crotch. Sage green boots. Interior chest pocket like in ABU. Pen/flashlight pockets on both arms. No lower pockets on blouse. Current ABU sizing chart with male and female sizes for better fit.
Having said that, here are my primary reasons to spend money on ABUs:
1. No ironing
2. No shining boots
Nothing else changes with the new uniform, but those two reasons are pretty darn good to me, especially during encampment where ironing isn't accessible and there just isn't enough time to shine boots every day.
I have every confidence that at some point ironing will become expected for these uniforms just like every other.
Quote from: RiverAux on December 29, 2007, 02:52:06 PM
I have every confidence that at some point ironing will become expected for these uniforms just like every other.
Having worn the ABU for a few months now, I disagree. I can honestly say that the uniform looks outstanding right out of the dryer. The permanent press creases stay in despite several washings.
Quote from: edmo1 on December 28, 2007, 07:47:16 PM
Quote from: LittleIronPilot on December 28, 2007, 06:56:46 PM
Well as both former military, and a current taxpayer, I will say this:
WE NEED ONE FREAKING UNIFORM!
Oh, I took what he was saying to mean one uniform across the board for all the armed services. Instead of having a separate one for each branch which costs more money to design, wear test, and deploy.
I was...not a singular CAP uniform, but one across all of the armed forces (for daily/combat wear, we can allow the Marines to keep their bellhop uniforms! :D)
Quote from: JarakMaldon on December 29, 2007, 03:11:17 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on December 29, 2007, 02:52:06 PM
I have every confidence that at some point ironing will become expected for these uniforms just like every other.
Having worn the ABU for a few months now, I disagree. I can honestly say that the uniform looks outstanding right out of the dryer. The permanent press creases stay in despite several washings.
I've gone TDY with the ABU a couple of times....I rolled it up in my carry one luggage, pulled it out and it looked great.
Yes it is hotter than BDUs, yes pens in the arm poke poke me in the bicep, yes it's not at "cool" as the ACU/MARPAT but the zero maintenance of the uniform out weights these factors 10 to 1.
Quote from: afgeo4 on December 29, 2007, 08:46:39 AM
I'm all for this uniform for USA and USAF:
General shape and cut of the current ACU with slanted pockets on breast, cargo pockets on arms and 4 cargo pockets on legs. Mandarin Collar (buttoned) with zipper replaced by buttons. Sew on nametapes and branch tapes. Velcro patches on shoulders and IR pocket. Multicam pattern. Current fabric with reinforced seat and crotch. Sage green boots. Interior chest pocket like in ABU. Pen/flashlight pockets on both arms. No lower pockets on blouse. Current ABU sizing chart with male and female sizes for better fit.
Having said that, here are my primary reasons to spend money on ABUs:
1. No ironing
2. No shining boots
Nothing else changes with the new uniform, but those two reasons are pretty darn good to me, especially during encampment where ironing isn't accessible and there just isn't enough time to shine boots every day.
I'd agree with just about everything, except the sage green boots. Until the AF came up with it, there was no sage green leather. Tan boots are easily made, and don't require a dye job.
Gender specific sizes would be a very smart and practical thing. I always thought there should be a men's small regular, medium regular, etc; and a women's small regular, medium regular, and so on. Wouldn't be too hard, and wouldn't increase the uniform stock like the 200+ sizes that the AF decided to go to.
As for Multicam, I've seen it in many photos in various environments, and it actually seems to be fairly effective, except for pure urban environments.
As far as Multicam is concerned, there's this: http://www.1800nametape.com/multicam.htm
Seems like the accoutrements are already available. Just wondering who in the Army is wearing it. There wouldn't be a supply if there wasn't some kind of demand.
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 29, 2007, 08:27:56 AM
Quote from: WWIntel on December 28, 2007, 10:54:37 PM
Also, an unrelated question, but what do you fly?
I'm not a pilot, if that's what you're asking, but I fly on Blackhawks as aircrew. As aircrew, I have to wear the same Nomex and survival gear as the pilots (Actually, I have to wear another hard plate in my body armor, as my seat backs aren't ballistic.) The A2CU's are a wierd meld of the flightsuit and ACU's, and they don't wear like either one. They've taken a little getting used to.
I haven't seen A2CUs in person yet. I flew on a few Army UH-60s about a year or so ago and IIRC they were still wearing the 1-piece nomex suits. Here's another question for you...what's up with the "Darth Vader" masks that the aircrew wear?
Quote from: WWIntel on December 30, 2007, 09:56:30 PM
I haven't seen A2CUs in person yet. I flew on a few Army UH-60s about a year or so ago and IIRC they were still wearing the 1-piece nomex suits. Here's another question for you...what's up with the "Darth Vader" masks that the aircrew wear?
The Maxillo Facial shield. Here's a link to the manufacturer:
http://www.gentexcorp.com/default.aspx?pageid=931
Most of what I would have to say would simply be repeating their info.
They do cut down on noise while on the intercom. That's a particular annoyance to most of us. I haven't gotten my shield yet, they're backordered.
Here's a link on the A2CU: http://peosoldier.army.mil/factsheets/SEQ_CIE_A2CU.pdf
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 29, 2007, 07:01:23 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on December 29, 2007, 08:46:39 AM
I'm all for this uniform for USA and USAF:
General shape and cut of the current ACU with slanted pockets on breast, cargo pockets on arms and 4 cargo pockets on legs. Mandarin Collar (buttoned) with zipper replaced by buttons. Sew on nametapes and branch tapes. Velcro patches on shoulders and IR pocket. Multicam pattern. Current fabric with reinforced seat and crotch. Sage green boots. Interior chest pocket like in ABU. Pen/flashlight pockets on both arms. No lower pockets on blouse. Current ABU sizing chart with male and female sizes for better fit.
Having said that, here are my primary reasons to spend money on ABUs:
1. No ironing
2. No shining boots
Nothing else changes with the new uniform, but those two reasons are pretty darn good to me, especially during encampment where ironing isn't accessible and there just isn't enough time to shine boots every day.
I'd agree with just about everything, except the sage green boots. Until the AF came up with it, there was no sage green leather. Tan boots are easily made, and don't require a dye job.
Gender specific sizes would be a very smart and practical thing. I always thought there should be a men's small regular, medium regular, etc; and a women's small regular, medium regular, and so on. Wouldn't be too hard, and wouldn't increase the uniform stock like the 200+ sizes that the AF decided to go to.
As for Multicam, I've seen it in many photos in various environments, and it actually seems to be fairly effective, except for pure urban environments.
As far as Multicam is concerned, there's this: http://www.1800nametape.com/multicam.htm
Seems like the accoutrements are already available. Just wondering who in the Army is wearing it. There wouldn't be a supply if there wasn't some kind of demand.
Multicam is being wear tested by special operations forces. There is also a test going through the Army Battle Lab in Natick. Many soldiers are buying them up on their own and trying them. Of course, multicam isn't authorized yet, so they wear it for fun in the field instead of in formation or garrison. I've heard nothing but rave reviews as far as the pattern and camouflage goes.
Quote from: afgeo4 on December 31, 2007, 08:13:30 PM
Multicam is being wear tested by special operations forces. There is also a test going through the Army Battle Lab in Natick. Many soldiers are buying them up on their own and trying them. Of course, multicam isn't authorized yet, so they wear it for fun in the field instead of in formation or garrison. I've heard nothing but rave reviews as far as the pattern and camouflage goes.
Did some research. The Future Combat Systems Company is wearing them. Seems like they're out in Arizona.
Anyway, a Wiki link that shows a decent photo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Force_Warrior#Headgear_Subsystem
It looks to be a satisfactory all-round pattern.
If I may say so myself, being an AD member of the Air Force, I dislike the new ABU system and disagree fully with it being dropped down to the Aux level. In all honesty, it is a new "Combat" uniform and should be used solely for that purpose. In short, CAP does not fullfil any sort of combat role, and therefore has no reason to wear the uniform. BDU's still show that CAP is a military type organization that supports the Air Force (being that it is the Auxilary), but it also allows people to know that it is not a combat organization. Besides, sometimes it catches us (us being security forces) by surprise when you see a 16 y.o child wearing a uniform just like yours, with patches, rank, etc. Granted there are color differences and whatnot, but at first it can still "WHOA" us. Just my input! :-)
hmmmm......where to start. First thank you for your service! Second, I agree it is a combat uniform, as are BDU's. hell you PT clothes are combat clothing in the sense that if you were caught in them but the enemy....etc.
However, the Auxiliary should wear what the organization wears they are supposed to be supporting. If that means ABU's, so be it.
I hope you can tell the difference between a 13 year old kid in ABU's and a 54 year old General in ABU's. Heck, we will have so much "CAP" specific stuff all over the ABU, it won't even closely resemble what the AF will be wearing.
Don't sweat it!
Quote from: mikeylikey on January 03, 2008, 05:43:27 AM
Heck, we will have so much "CAP" specific stuff all over the ABU, it won't even closely resemble what the AF will be wearing.
While I agree that CAP specific items will be on our new uniform (whatever that may be, all I ask is that we stop looking like walking christmas trees.
Heck on my own BDU while I was in a squadron, i took off my squadron patch and ES patch. Too much goo on the BDU.
Quote from: mikeylikey on January 03, 2008, 05:43:27 AM
hell your PT clothes are combat clothing in the sense that if you were caught in them but the enemy....etc.
How right you are....
15 Dec 97, while in "Troll Village" on the Sava River, my platoon was on one of our rotations to the Sava River bridge for 7 to 20 days (we never knew how long) to protect the bridge, patrol and act as a Quick Reactionary Force (QRF) to anything bad that happened. Just so happens this particular evening, my squad was in the makeshift gym in the tent working out when the balloon went up. Herb the Serb decided to hijack a NATO fuel truck in our sector and was bringing to or location in an effort to steal it. My entire squadr was in PT gear. We grabbed our battle-rattle and responded. Luckily, our gore-tex was in our ruck sacks but it didn't last long enough for us to need it. In about 20 minutes the squadr on duty took it the tanker truck down.
Just goes to show, you never know...
Me and our real deal lawyer and interpreter. Paul, the guy on the left, graduated 1st in his class at UVA Law and decided he wanted to do his part and enlisted as an infantryman in the VA ARNG.
(http://captalk.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3859.0;attach=1482)
Doc with his aid bag and litter (he is now a Special Forces dude with Bronze Star with "V")
Quote from: wallport10 on January 03, 2008, 05:09:30 AM
If I may say so myself, being an AD member of the Air Force, I dislike the new ABU system and disagree fully with it being dropped down to the Aux level. In all honesty, it is a new "Combat" uniform and should be used solely for that purpose. In short, CAP does not fullfil any sort of combat role, and therefore has no reason to wear the uniform. BDU's still show that CAP is a military type organization that supports the Air Force (being that it is the Auxilary), but it also allows people to know that it is not a combat organization. Besides, sometimes it catches us (us being security forces) by surprise when you see a 16 y.o child wearing a uniform just like yours, with patches, rank, etc. Granted there are color differences and whatnot, but at first it can still "WHOA" us. Just my input! :-)
Then let's just go with BBDUs
Quote from: lordmonar on January 03, 2008, 08:42:40 AM
Then let's just go with BBDUs
And move farthur away from our Parents (USAF)?
I don't think I'd worry about CAP being in ABUs for several years. If it's authorized for CAP it probably won't be for five or more years. You may consider it a "battle" uniform, but it's also a work uniform. At MacDill AFB at Tampa, it's the UOD for those that have them. And I don't think there has been a battle in Tampa since the Seminole Wars of the 1830's.
Quote from: mikeylikey on December 28, 2007, 03:51:41 PM
Quote from: WWIntel on December 28, 2007, 09:36:29 AM
Now being in Korea, the consensus is generally the same. I was in a training class with about 25 soldiers and the topic of ACUs came up. Everyone of them said they did not like them. They all would much rather go back to wearing BDUs.
Really.....I am surprised. I would never go back to BDU's. In fact, I can't stand putting my CAP BDU's on. They just feel funny. I never had any wash or wear problems.
HOWEVER, the only problem I had was a small rip in the ass of my ACU's, but I traded them out and no big deal.
Now as for aesthetics......I hate the fact that the Officer Branch Insignia was removed in the transition to the ACU. I like to know what branch the Officer I am talking to is in. It was easy in BDU's to see what an Officer did by looking at his or her branch insignia and then deciding whether or not to waste time talking to him or her. Now I have to ask "what's your branch".
Mikey, It's simple EIB/CIB = Infantry/SF, No EIB/CIB = "Other" :angel:
Of course you might also pick out an Engineer by the "Super Sapper" Tab thingie..... (Jeez the stuff they came up with after I got out...) ::)
Quote from: wallport10 on January 03, 2008, 05:09:30 AM
If I may say so myself, being an AD member of the Air Force, I dislike the new ABU system and disagree fully with it being dropped down to the Aux level. In all honesty, it is a new "Combat" uniform and should be used solely for that purpose. In short, CAP does not fullfil any sort of combat role, and therefore has no reason to wear the uniform. BDU's still show that CAP is a military type organization that supports the Air Force (being that it is the Auxilary), but it also allows people to know that it is not a combat organization. Besides, sometimes it catches us (us being security forces) by surprise when you see a 16 y.o child wearing a uniform just like yours, with patches, rank, etc. Granted there are color differences and whatnot, but at first it can still "WHOA" us. Just my input! :-)
Yeah, well I never understood why the G1 Personnel Clerk wore a "combat" uniform either. In fact I think the only people who should wear camouflage are the actual gunfighters. The rest of the the support pukes should have to wear bright yellow or pink polyester jump suits so they KNOW they aren't really warfighters. Gotta keep the pogues in their place. Those losers aren't really part of the team, you know what I mean?
As a matter of fact, non-airborne qualified personnel (i.e. "Legs") should have to stand at parade rest in the present of their betters, regardless of rank.
</sarcasm>
There is a place for utility uniforms for everyone. Wearing a service uniform (in whole or part) is not practical for everyday wear. Considering what our cadets do during encampment, I wouldn't want them tearing up blues.
There's other places where they are just more appropriate. CAP members taking a ride on C-130 have no practical reason for wearing service dress (which I've seen photos of this being done).
Our super secret squirrel organizations tend to wear what works for them, and a large part of the time, they are wearing something that doesn't even make them look like the rest of the branch that they serve with. We don't need to dress like them, but restricting utilities for only the "working" types just isn't practical.
Now if the Air Force actually came up with a practical working garrison utility uniform, I'd be for it. But I don't think they will.
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on January 03, 2008, 11:07:04 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on January 03, 2008, 08:42:40 AM
Then let's just go with BBDUs
And move farther away from our Parents (USAF)?
Don't tell me...tell Wallport10, ;D
My basic premise on uniforms has always been we ALL need to be in USAF style uniforms (even the fat and fuzzy types).....or.....we ALL need to be in CAP style uniforms.
If the USAF is the one not allowing us to wear THEIR uniform then it is they who are pushing us away.
We are their auxillary....even the fat and fuzzy guys....they need to either fish or cut bait....this half and half stuff is just not a very good practice.
Quote from: lordmonar on January 04, 2008, 01:08:26 AMMy basic premise on uniforms has always been we ALL need to be in USAF style uniforms (even the fat and fuzzy types).....or.....we ALL need to be in CAP style uniforms.
If the USAF is the one not allowing us to wear THEIR uniform then it is they who are pushing us away.
We are their auxillary....even the fat and fuzzy guys....they need to either fish or cut bait....this half and half stuff is just not a very good practice.
Preach on, brother Patrick. Amen ^to that^.
Quote from: wallport10 on January 03, 2008, 05:09:30 AM
If I may say so myself, being an AD member of the Air Force, I dislike the new ABU system and disagree fully with it being dropped down to the Aux level. In all honesty, it is a new "Combat" uniform and should be used solely for that purpose. In short, CAP does not fullfil any sort of combat role, and therefore has no reason to wear the uniform. BDU's still show that CAP is a military type organization that supports the Air Force (being that it is the Auxilary), but it also allows people to know that it is not a combat organization. Besides, sometimes it catches us (us being security forces) by surprise when you see a 16 y.o child wearing a uniform just like yours, with patches, rank, etc. Granted there are color differences and whatnot, but at first it can still "WHOA" us. Just my input! :-)
Feel better now?
News flash hero. We had the exact same arguements going on when we went from the green fatigues to the BDU's.
Haven't seen any CAP members in BDU's being mistaken for "Combat Troops" yet.
Philip Hall, Lt Col, CAP / MSgt (Ret), USAFR
Quote from: wallport10 on January 03, 2008, 05:09:30 AM
Besides, sometimes it catches us (us being security forces) by surprise when you see a 16 y.o child wearing a uniform just like yours, with patches, rank, etc. Granted there are color differences and whatnot, but at first it can still "WHOA" us. Just my input! :-)
Sounds like you're not informing your colleagues of what CAP is. If they're going "Whoa!", it's a perfect opportunity to enlighten them.
Might not hurt for them to know. Wouldn't want you to go handing a kid an M-4 when he's not ready for it.
As I recall, we had these exact same discussions in parking lot and restaurant after-meeting meetings back in 1990, while trying to decide how long it would take us to get BDUs. I remember hearing everything from within six months, to 3-5 years, to never. We received authorization for BDUs on or about 1 Jan 91, IIRC.
We heard all the same things then that people are saying now: that the surplus stocks of BDUs will carry us for years, we'll be able to get them from commercial sources, yadda yadda yadda. I think it was about two years after the AF switched to BDUs before CAP was wearing them. Though I will admit that the supply train for BDUs was quite a bit longer, being that every service was wearing them.
Honestly, nobody knows when the word for ABUs will come. Could be next week, could be next year, could never come. When/if it does, I'd be willing to be there are a few people out there who already have them in their closets, ready to go.
Well....not in my closet....but I got the name tapes ready to sew on as soon as we get a go order! ;D
Quote from: lordmonar on January 04, 2008, 08:03:03 PM
Well....not in my closet....but I got the name tapes ready to sew on as soon as we get a go order! ;D
What color?
Quote from: wallport10 on January 03, 2008, 05:09:30 AM
If I may say so myself, being an AD member of the Air Force, I dislike the new ABU system and disagree fully with it being dropped down to the Aux level. In all honesty, it is a new "Combat" uniform and should be used solely for that purpose. In short, CAP does not fullfil any sort of combat role, and therefore has no reason to wear the uniform. BDU's still show that CAP is a military type organization that supports the Air Force (being that it is the Auxilary), but it also allows people to know that it is not a combat organization. Besides, sometimes it catches us (us being security forces) by surprise when you see a 16 y.o child wearing a uniform just like yours, with patches, rank, etc. Granted there are color differences and whatnot, but at first it can still "WHOA" us. Just my input! :-)
Hey Nathan... welcome back to CONUS and welcome to Captalk.
Here comes the argument though... the extensive testing by battle labs and combat airmen has proven that the ABU is not a combat uniform. It is a garrison uniform. The leadership of the Air Force has claimed as such. The Air Force set out to find a new and distinctive utility uniform that would work well in garrison and in base defense conditions. Why? Because that's what almost all airmen do. That's why the pockets aren't slanted. Why there are no knee pads inserts. Why the camouflage pattern works awfully in wooded and desert conditions or at night. Why there is no IR tab and why no mandarin collar. The uniform is built for SPs and the rest of us base dwellers. It is not built for Combat Airmen or those who truly battle outside the perimeter. The true utilities of the uniform as per the Air Force is its durability of fabric, wash & wear perm press, no shine boots, distinctive from other services, and provides a few more convenience pockets to those who carry calculators and pens for a living. That, coincidentally, works quite well for CAP.
Next time you go "whoa!" at the base gate, remember that anyone can buy and wear any uniform. That's why you have 100% ID check.
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 04, 2008, 09:15:00 PM
The uniform is built for SPs and the rest of us base dwellers. It is not built for Combat Airmen or those who truly battle outside the perimeter.
True that the Air Force built it for garrison wear. What's ironic is that all the airmen embeded or supporting Army units that used to wear ACU's, are no longer permitted to. Even if working with the Army, they're required to wear the ABU now.
Could someone point me to a reference where they talk about the ABU being designed as a garrison uniform?
Probably no specific reference other than various AF Times articles, and some news releases.
Quote from: Hawk200 on January 04, 2008, 10:09:58 PM
Probably no specific reference other than various AF Times articles, and some news releases.
I don't remember who mentioned this, but a few months ago I saw an article in the Army Times about a new 'combat uniform' that was designed to be worn under the Interceptor Body Armor, while the ACU's would be the standard 'garrison uniform' for the Army. I'll see if I can dig it out.
Quote from: JThemann on January 04, 2008, 10:20:59 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on January 04, 2008, 10:09:58 PM
Probably no specific reference other than various AF Times articles, and some news releases.
I don't remember who mentioned this, but a few months ago I saw an article in the Army Times about a new 'combat uniform' that was designed to be worn under the Interceptor Body Armor, while the ACU's would be the standard 'garrison uniform' for the Army. I'll see if I can dig it out.
You're probably talking about the "combat shirts" - pullovers with ACU material arms but more of a t-shirt/underarmor-style material on the torso where the IBA goes. They're talking about the same for the ABU.
They're also talking about a lighter weight shirt for the ABU. MARPAT is like this: the shirt is a lighter weight than the pants.
Quote from: ddelaney103 on January 04, 2008, 09:31:00 PM
Could someone point me to a reference where they talk about the ABU being designed as a garrison uniform?
That's not a stated refernce. It's commentary.
ACUs are designed as a disposable combat uniform & wthout regard to looking good or being practical in a garrison environment. The AF doesn't have those kinds of physical demands on most people.
Quote from: DNall on January 05, 2008, 01:15:37 AM
ACUs are designed as a disposable combat uniform & without regard to looking good or being practical in a garrison environment.
And somehow the ACUs, even in garrison, still look good. To me anyway. I'm not saying they look "hooah" or "high speed", I genuinely think they look good. And to me, you can't beat something that looks good and has ultimate functionality, at least as far as modern day field uniforms are concerned.
Quote from: RogueLeader on January 04, 2008, 08:53:01 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on January 04, 2008, 08:03:03 PM
Well....not in my closet....but I got the name tapes ready to sew on as soon as we get a go order! ;D
What color?
White on blue....if CAP decides to go with subdued tapes....I can get those made locally in less that one hour! ;D
Quote from: ddelaney103 on January 04, 2008, 09:31:00 PM
Could someone point me to a reference where they talk about the ABU being designed as a garrison uniform?
This was something I've read in the AF times, on Military.com and also on the website of the company which was tasked with developing the camo pattern for the ABU (original blue and the one that got adopted). Many fully digitized patterns that were developed by the same company for the same project were turned down in favor of the semi-digital tiger stripe, contrary to their success in field conditions.
The statements were in line with the fact that over 90% of airmen "fight" within the confines of the airbase, so the uniform has to suit THEM. That's why slate blue was added to standard ACU colors. The pattern works well in urban gray jungles of an airbase and the pockets, tailoring, and fabric suit personnel who work in maintenance and such.
Honestly, most Security Forces and Combat Airmen were strongly against both, the camouflage pattern and the design of the uniform. The ACU pattern isn't very effective outside of urban environments and they knew it.
ABU
Airman Barracks Uniform
[url]http://www.militarytimes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1488/url]
[url]http://www.tigerstripeproducts.com/airforcetiger.htm/url]
Air Force blue can be seen in the pattern design which USAF Leadership specifically wanted to distinguish the uniform as "Air Force". Camouflage effectiveness was a very low ancillary issue.
USAF Leadership chose to adopt this elementary ragged edged stripe like pattern over any of our far superior advanced Battle ready tiger stripe designs.
Sir, the second link is from a company who lost the design competition.
Not exactly objective, is it?
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 05, 2008, 07:22:45 AM
The ACU pattern isn't very effective outside of urban environments and they knew it.
Extensive tests at Program Executive Office (PEO) Soldier determined that the pattern will work well in all environments. That was why it was chosen. It would do the Army little good to select a pattern that provided little or no camouflage.
As far as the ABU goes, it is a garrison uniform. The uniform page on AF Portal even had a sentence stating to that fact.
(BTW, is Garrison the right word for describing the base environment in the Air Force lexicon? Or did the AF get rid of that word too in the 1950's?)
Quote from: isuhawkeye on January 05, 2008, 03:51:28 PM
ABU
Airman Barracks Uniform
[url]http://www.militarytimes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1488/url]
[url]http://www.tigerstripeproducts.com/airforcetiger.htm/url]
Air Force blue can be seen in the pattern design which USAF Leadership specifically wanted to distinguish the uniform as "Air Force". Camouflage effectiveness was a very low ancillary issue.
USAF Leadership chose to adopt this elementary ragged edged stripe like pattern over any of our far superior advanced Battle ready tiger stripe designs.
[/quote]
You got to be careful with tigerstripeproducts....they lost the design contract and have an axe to grind.
Yes we wanted a distinctive uniform and we did design it to be worn as a "utility" uniform for both home base and forward operations. It was designed to look good, wear well, and to protect us and provide us some camouflage capabilities.
But here is the thing with camaglage......because you don't know where you are going to operate you cannot ever make a single pattern that will work in ALL environments.
So it is a compromise.
slanted pockets vs vertical, bicep picket, lower pockets/no lower pockets, tucked in/not tucked in.....you will never be able to please all of the people all of the time.
Functional for the average Airman, wear-ability, durability and maintainability....those are the things I want from my utility uniform....and I think we got it.
But we had all those thing with the BDUs and the OD fatigues too....so there you go. :D
For those of you still interested in the ABU, I took the following update off the AF Portal (my.af.mil) this evening. It contains the most recent policies and questions regarding the ABU's.
Here we go........
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
AIRMAN BATTLE UNIFORM (ABU)
JANUARY 2008 (updated)
**Yes, a complete set of ABUs is Authorized for Wear NOW!! **
Q1. Can we wear the green ABU boot with all Air Force utility uniforms? If so, when can we wear them and when can we wear the ABU?
A1. Yes, you can wear the green ABU boot with all Air Force utility uniforms now. This includes the ABU, BDU, DCU, OD green flight suits and desert tan flight suits. They are available for personal purchase (not issue or unit funded purchase) in AAFES, Military Clothing Sales Stores. The official authority, via 8106 message, is out and a copy is located below in the "Important Documents" section. "Safe-to-Fly" Boots are in production and available with limited supplies in several AAFES, Military Clothing Sales Stores. Current approved model is Belleville 690. A temperate (cold weather) "Safe-to-Fly" boot, Belleville Model 670, is in development with an early 2008 projected availability. Additional models of the sage Green "Safe-to-Fly" boots are in development, expected availability in mid-2008.
Q2. Why does it appear that there are shade differences with some sets of ABUs?
A2. Some ABUs issued or purchased through AAFES, do appear to have some shade variances, but they are all within the shade tolerance specifications set by the Air Force. This is a normal development process that happens when a new uniform with a new textile is used. We anticipate that this will work itself out as the vendors formalize the process and produce more uniforms. The different shades variances are authorized.
Q3: When is the mandatory wear date for the ABU?
A3: October 2011 (FY12).
Q4: Will we wear patches (e.g. Wing or Squadron) on the ABU?
A4: No patches or unit emblems will be worn on the ABU. Mandatory badges (Aeronautical, Chaplain), and mandatory duty shields for Force Protection and Fire Protection are required. No other duty badges will be authorized or worn. Occupational badges are optional, but encouraged.
Q5: Will we still be able to wear baseball hats?
A5: Organizational baseball hats are not authorized with the ABU. The one current exception is that RED HORSE squadrons may continue to wear organizational caps. Only the ABU hat (looks like the current BDU style with the ABU print) and currently authorized berets will still be allowed.
Q6: Can I wear sister services badges on the ABU?
A6: No.
Q7: Can I wear my black combat boots?
A7: Black boots will not be authorized at anytime with the ABU. Tan boots authorized until 2011.
Q8: Will other Air Force-issued items change to match the pattern and/or color of the ABU?
A8: Yes, some items (hat, socks, & T-shirts) will be introduced concurrently w/ the ABU. As mentioned above (Q.7), tan boots are authorized until 2011.
Q9: Why didn't we use Velcro® for the attachments to the ABU?
A9: The Research and Development branch of the Air Force Clothing Office at Wright-Patterson AFB looked into using Velcro®, since it appears to be easier and less expensive for our Airmen. However, research indicates otherwise and the majority of the Airmen in the test did not want Velcro® (see Q&A 43 for a more detailed explanation).
Q10: Will the jacket commonly known as the Gortex® jacket be available?
A10: Yes, AAFES will be selling the new Air Force All Purpose Environmental Clothing System (AF APECS) Parka. There will be widespread availability in May 2008.
Q11: Can I mix and match patterns with my ABUs (i.e. wear any of my over garments with the ABU until I get a new ABU jacket)?
A11: Mix and match patterns with the ABU are authorized if certain criteria are met. Reference the COLD-WEATHER OUTERGARMENTS WITH THE AIRMAN BATTLE UNIFORM (ABU) Message (Jan 08).
Q12: Will the clothing allowance be increased since the cost of the uniform will go up?
A12: Yes, the clothing allowance will reflect the increase effective October 2007 (FY 08). If you choose to purchase the ABU before your anniversary date in FY08, you will absorb the cost differences until you receive your clothing allowance. If you choose to buy a set early, you must have an entire set of ABUs and accessories.
Q13: Will officers be given a clothing allowance to cover initial costs?
A13: Officers only receive an initial allowance upon commissioning.
Q14: How many uniforms will be issued at basic training?
A14: The Basis of Issue for the ABU will be the same as the BDU. Four (4) ABUs will be issued to new Airmen in Basic Military Training (BMT) Oct 07. These replace the four sets of BDUs currently issued in the initial issue clothing bag.
Q15: I understand that the expected life expectancy of the typical ABU is only 12 months. That doesn't seem very durable for a uniform that is designed to be used in combat environments. Will the enlisted clothing allowance be updated annually to allow Airmen to purchase four sets every year?
A15: The life expectancy is based on the current BDU for the enlisted clothing allowance. Our tests indicate that, with proper care and laundering, there will be a much longer life than one year and once there is sufficient data to support that, the life expectancy will be adjusted.
Q16: Does the ABU require dry cleaning and/or pressing?
A16: The ABU is literally a wash and wear item. In fact, starching and hot pressing of ABUs is prohibited. Also, one should not dry clean the ABU. Dry cleaning, starching and hot pressing will deteriorate the fiber in the uniform and shorten the wear life.
Q17: What are the washing and care requirements for the ABU?
A17: In order to maximize service life and maintain optimum performance, the following instructions should be followed when caring for the ABU: Wash in warm water with detergent containing no optical brighteners or bleach. Tumble dry at low heat. The use of starch, sizing and any process that involves dry-cleaning or steam press will adversely affect the treatments and durability of the uniform and is not authorized.
Q18: How could starch damage the uniform?
A18: Starching of the ABU is prohibited. Starching uniforms makes the uniform material more brittle and subsequently reduces the wear life. The permanent press and nIR (near Infrared) features of this uniform will be damaged by starching, commercial pressing and additives in the washing process. The permanent press feature will allow Airmen to look sharp and wear the ABU without incurring the costs of commercial dry cleaning or pressing.
Q19: I hear the ABU is a better fit. Can you explain?
A19: Yes, it is a better fit for men and women. The ABU has 236 (118 trousers and 118 blouses) sizes that will accommodate both men and women, unlike the 57 sizes of the current BDU. The ABU sizes follow commercial clothing standards. The most common sizes will be available on AAFES shelves and the total 236 sizes will be available by order through AAFES. The green suede boots will come in women's sizes unlike the current black boot in the Air Force inventory, which does not.
Q20: How much does an individual set of the ABU cost? What about accessories like the jacket, t-shirts, socks, etc.
A20: The cost of one set of ABUs is $81.37 plus badges and rank. The following is a complete breakout of costs for the ABU and accessories: ABU Hat - $5.98; Men's Trouser - $41.96; Men's Coat - $39.41; Women's Trouser - $41.96; Women's Coat - $39.41; Sand T-shirt - $4.35; Green Boot Socks - $2.30; Sand Riggers Belt - $3.15; Desert Tan Boots - $97.50; AF Green Boots - $100.55; AF APECS Parka - $173.25
Q21: What does it look like?
A21: Take a look at it on the AF Uniform and Recognition Programs website on the Air Force Portal.
Q22: When can I buy an ABU?
A22: The ABU will be issued to our airmen deploying to Iraq, Afghanistan and Kuwait AEF 9/10 and 1/2 and then to our Basic Military Trainees (BMTs) began in Oct 07. Depending on availability, the ABU began to flow into some AAFES Military Clothing Sales Stores in late summer 2007.
Q23: Who will pay for the ABU?
A23: Initially the Air Force will fund: 1) Initial issue of ABUs to some deploying total force war fighters; 2) BMTs will be issued 4 sets of ABUs. All others will purchase ABUs individually as replacements are needed (using clothing allowance if authorized).
Q24: Will the reserve component wear the ABU?
A24: Yes, the Total Air Force will wear the ABU - Active, Reserve and National Guard.
Q25: If I am in the Guard or Reserves, how do I get my new ABU?
A25: ABUs will be issued to the Guard and Reserve in the same manner in which they currently acquire their uniform. However, if you fall into a category of not being issued clothing, then you can purchase them the same way you do now, e.g., go to nearest clothing store or on-line at www.aafes.com when sufficient supplies are available.
Q26. Why is the ABU available to a movie production company, before it's available to AF personnel?
A26: Iron Man, based on the Marvel comic book character, is scheduled to release in 2008. A lead character in the storyline portrays an AF officer. The production company was allowed to purchase an extremely small quantity of the ABU fabric to make the few sets of ABUs needed in the movie for early 2006 filming. The company is handling their own tailoring of the ABU for the few uniforms they need. There is absolutely no impact to AF production or distribution.
Q27: Why did you borrow the pattern from the Army and Marines?
A27: We did not borrow the pattern. The Air Force created it's own pattern with the inspiration from the Vietnam-era tiger stripe. The AF did use colors based on the Army's new ACU with the addition of slate blue.
Q28: Why a new uniform now?
A28: We developed our own pattern that is compatible with the patterns of the other services. The services have recognized the need to have a uniform better suited to the environment in which we operate, that is easy to care for and that fits better. The ABU accomplishes that.
Q29: What happens if I need a new uniform and I can't find a BDU in my size and the ABU isn't available in my AAFES yet?
A29: Speak with a Military Clothing Sales Stores (MCSS) sales associate and they can inquire about having your BDU size shipped from another MCSS store.
Q30: What is the stop-wear date for the people in the "ABU test uniform"?
A30: Airmen currently wearing test uniforms can continue to wear them as long as the uniforms are serviceable.
Q31: Was the new ABU field-tested as it was developed?
A31: The Air Force Uniform Board (AFUB) directed a combined initial fit and wear test in 2004 for the new utility uniform. The uniforms used in the follow-on Operational Utility Evaluation (OUE) during 2005 were made from patterns that incorporated the best data available from the combined fit and wear test. We received both positive and negative feedback and incorporated changes to the uniform based on that feedback. As with any new item, ABU refinements will be made, based on continued feedback from the field.
Q32: Why doesn't the Air Force just adopt the Army's ACU? Isn't it wasteful for the Air Force to develop, produce, and distribute a new uniform in today's constrained fiscal environment?
A32: The goal for the ABU was to develop a distinctive AF uniform that is better fitting and easier and less expensive to maintain. These goals were developed in response to input from Airmen across the force. The Air Force Clothing Office created a matrix of all the suggestions and complaints sent to the AFUB for several years. The current BDU received the most complaints and suggestions. Because the BDU is an Army owned uniform, the AF could not make changes to it. When the Army decided it would discontinue the current BDU and DCU, they did not have any designs to share with the AF either. This provided a unique opportunity for the Air Force to take input from Airmen and develop a uniform that can meet the specific needs of the Air Force while retaining the flexibility to adapt to changes as they occur over time.
Q33: The slanted cargo pockets on the blouse and trousers of the ACU are much more accessible than horizontal pockets. Why didn't the Air Force incorporate slanted pockets into the design of the ABU?
A33: The senior leadership of AFSOC considered the use of slant pockets, but ultimately decided there was no advantage to them. In fact, we specifically sought and received input on pockets, which resulted in the lower arm and leg pockets on the latest version of the ABU.
Q34: The Army designed a two-piece aviation variant of their ACU. Why isn't the Air Force designing a replacement flight suit based on the ABU?
A34: For several reasons, Air Force senior leadership decided that it would be premature, at this time, to move forward with development of a two-piece flight suit. Many Air Force pilots must wear a one-piece flight suit due to ejection seat requirements. As a result, it is imperative to continue with some variant of a one-piece flight suit. The AF is studying the possibility of a two-piece suit for some flight specialties; however, there is currently insufficient data to warrant moving forward with development. From a technical perspective, the Nomex fabric currently being used in the ABDUs is very difficult to print on, which would cause long delays in procurement. The ABDU is also more expensive than the one-piece flight suit.
Q35: The ABU is going to be issued to Airmen deploying in AEF 7 and 8. Will members in follow-on AEFs also be issued the ABU?
A35: Members in follow-on AEFs will be issued ABUs and DCUs depending on location of deployment and residual stock of DCUs. Airmen not deploying will replace their BDUs with ABUs using their clothing allowance. The mandatory wear date is not until 2011 and the clothing allowance increase is effective Oct 07.
Q36: I'm in a Battlefield Airman Career field. Am I going to be required to wear the ABU or can I still wear the ACU?
A36: Starting with AEF 7/8, Air Force personnel currently authorized to wear the Army's ACU will be issued ABUs when they deploy to the AOR and will no longer be authorized to wear the Army's uniform.
Q37: Will SOF forces be issued the ABU?
A37: The SOF were among the first to test the ABU. Absolutely, they will wear the ABU. We are committed to continuous improvement with regard to the ABU. We plan to continually upgrade the ABU as we learn more about its effectiveness - we'll do this in spirals. We will incorporate new fabrics and new technology as appropriate. SOF forces will continue with their current ROE when deployed but are authorized to purchase ABUs when available at their duty stations.
Q38: Who is the contractor making the ABU?
A38: The Defense Supply Center of Phil (DSCP) is procuring uniforms through their normal supply chain. AAFES will then purchase their stock of the uniforms from DSCP.
Q39: You mentioned that some general officers and command chief master sergeants began wearing the ABU this Spring. Roughly how many folks are you talking about? A ballpark figure is OK. Is it safe to say they are general officers from bases around the U.S. and overseas?
A39: We provided an opportunity to all GOs, MAJCOM CCMs and Combatant Command CCMs to order two sets of ABUs, approx 500 in total. They are at locations worldwide.
Q40: If airmen are scheduled to deploy with AEF rotations 9/10 and 1/2, will they get ABUs or DCUs and on what date will they be able to obtain their new uniforms? Where will they be able to get them?
A40: This is a multi-part answer.
Airmen deploying to Iraq, Afghanistan and Kuwait, will get ABUs. All others will get DCUs. These will be issued prior to departure to CST.
All gear will be issued from your home station. Your Unit Deployment Manager has specific information
When the members return stateside can they wear their DCUs? No, current AFI 36-2903 policy remains in effect. No wear of DCUs outside of the AOR.
When the members return stateside can they wear their ABUs? Yes, if they are still serviceable -- however they must comply with AFI 36-2903 wear policy e.g. no mix and matching.
ABUs are currently available in some AAFES Military Clothing Sales Stores and will continue to be more widely available as supply increases. We anticipate widespread availability by late 2007 or early 2008.
Q41: The fabric on the new ABU feels like it's a heavier weight than the winter version of the old BDU. If so, why is that the case considering the ABU will be used in a wide range of environmental conditions?
A41: The fabric is the same weight as the temperate BDU, and the same weight as the MARPAT trousers; however, when it was tested for air permeability against a starched summer weight BDU the ABU fabric performed better. Initially, the permanent press treatment can make the fabric feel a bit heavier, too.
Q42: The length of the trousers on the new ABU appears to be about 12 inches too long. Was this a manufacturing error or is there another reason?
A42: The trouser length was set after extensive fit and wear testing to allow blousing for someone whose legs were long, but their lower torso length was short. In the past, this person would have to buy a "long" trouser to get the needed length in the leg, but the trouser crotch would hang uncomfortably low on them.
Q43: Can you elaborate on why buttons are better operationally than Velcro®on the ABU?
A43: Our users surveyed and our test participants strongly prefer buttons to Hook and Loop Fasteners (commonly referred to by the trade name Velcro®) for the following reason: 1) Hook and Loop fasteners have a wear life and become unserviceable after a number of uses. 2) Sand and/or dirt sticks between the hooks and loops and makes it inoperable, so the fastener requires routine maintenance to keep it in good working order. 3) It is easier to replace a button than to sew on a new fastener 4) It often becomes attached to other articles of clothing, especially loosely-woven items. When one attempts to remove the fastener, even if they are separated slowly it can do harm to the other articles. 5) The tearing noise made by unfastening a hook and loop fastener can be loud at a time where stealth is wanted.
Q44: It's not difficult to see that the horizontal pockets on the chest do not allow as easy access as slanted pockets. Why did the Air Force decide to go with horizontal pockets instead of slanted pockets?
Q44: A great deal of input was received from wear testers--consisting of many field testers--regarding pocket configurations, to include the possibility of slanting the pockets. Once senior leadership had reviewed--and thoroughly considered--all feedback and suggestions, a final decision was made: to leave the front outer pockets unslanted.
Q45: The hidden pockets inside the ABU blouse don't seem very functional. You can't access them if you're wearing IBA and they make the uniform less breathable.
A45: The interior pockets were requested by user representatives in the original design IPT and were popular with many of the wear test participants. Mission requirements as well as personal preferences vary tremendously. While not officially recommended or suggested, some personnel may choose to cut the interior pockets out of the garment, as long as it doesn't change the outer appearance of the uniform.
Q46: Why didn't the Air Force just forgo the sleeve rank and provide upper sleeve pockets that would be more useful than hidden pockets and chest pockets when wearing IBA?
A46: Collaborative discussion among senior leadership from all commands resulted in the decision to continue with the rank on the sleeve, rather than reconfigure to add more pockets.
Q47: Will the new green boots be offered in safety toe option and if so, when? What will we do if the ABUs are out but there isn't a matching safety boot available?
A47: Yes, we plan to bring out the green boots in a safety toe option. The green safety toe boots will most likely be available around mid-2008. When airmen may begin to buy ABUs (through AAFES), unit resource advisors will have the option of procuring desert tan safety toe boots.
Q48: Is the commanders insignia authorized with the ABU?
A48: No, currently the commanders insignia is NOT authorized.
Q49: The latest wear message (Sep 07) says that the only authorized hat with the ABU is the ABU patrol cap (except in the AOR where boonies/floppy hats are authorized). Are there any exceptions?
A49: Yes -- The majority of "Distinctive Uniform" authorizations currently in AFI 36-2903, table 3.1 - 3.7 will transfer to the ABU (such as berets). Check with your unit if you are not sure. Any changes to these policies will be posted on the website and communicated through the impacted organizations. Exceptions to policy must be coordinated through MAJCOM/A1s to AF/A1 for consideration.
Q50: Can my unit or I purchase uniforms from venders other than AAFES, Military Clothing Sales Office?
A50: Units MAY NOT use appropriated funds of any kind (credit card, micro-purchase, form 9s, etc) to purchase uniforms from non-certified commercial sources. Right now, there are no certified vendors. This is driven primarily by the contracting regulations (Berry Amendment), which requires all clothing and textiles purchased with government funds be manufactured entirely in the US. Individuals can spend their personal funds anywhere they want, the same restriction does NOT apply to individual purchases of uniforms; however, if personal funds are used, the individual is at risk that item will not meet uniform requirements. Uniforms purchased through outside sources can NOT be returned to AAFES for any reason.
Q51: With the ABU being a "clean" uniform (i.e. no patches, no organizational hats--except as outlined in Q&A #5), will this policy impact patch and organization hat ROE for BDUs?
A51: Unit Commanders will make the call on unit patches and organizational hats on the BDU; mandatory ABU wear is set for 2011.
Q52: How come my clothing allowance was the same at FY2006? I thought it was supposed to increase in October 2007.
A52: Congress has not passed the defense budget yet. The Defense Budget is on a Continuing Resolution (CR). You will be reimbursed (retroactively) the increased amount as soon as the budget passes.
Q53: Can I wear the Cold Weather Parka (the solid green one with the white fur collar) with the ABU?
A53: Yes, it is authorized for wear with the ABU, in colder climates where it is issued.
Q54: What color socks can I wear with the ABU?
Q54: Wear GREEN socks with the GREEN ABU boots. You can wear GREEN or BLACK socks with the TAN boots.
Q55: Can I sew my pockets down on the ABU?
A55: Alterations are allowed to improve fit, but must not change the intended appearance of the uniform(AFI 36-2903, Table 1.2. Note 1). Although this modification would not change the appearance (pockets are still there), keep in mind the pockets might be necessary while deployed or during particular duties.
Got my first set of ABUs this weekend at drill. Cut out the inner-breast pockets and extra material. Those things run big. I got 36R and the "R" for regular must mean for people over 7' tall. I was told they ran big, or long, so I got regs instead of long. Things almost go past my toes and I'm about 6' 2".
Interesting info, especially since if I don't get back into a school I want to go to I've decided that I will enlist.
Q&A #48 puts to rest the thought of authorizing a command badge for our commanders in utility uniforms.
To touch on MikeyLikey's post:
(http://www.af.mil/news/airman/downloads_posters/ABU_Poster.jpg)
Click here for larger image (http://www.jacksonvillesquadron.org/images/abu_poster.jpg)
In case you can't read it, the insert on the bottom right:
(http://captalk.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3859.0;attach=1529)
BTW, the new ABU hat makes for an excellent "Ranger Roll" ;D No, seriously!
^ They should ditch the foliage green anything and keep black accessories. Since they are in such availability, why create more costs. BUT it is the Govt.
Quote from: mikeylikey on January 15, 2008, 07:10:46 PM
^ They should ditch the foliage green anything and keep black accessories. Since they are in such availability, why create more costs. BUT it is the Govt.
One major problem with that: It makes sense. Someone would get fired over it. >:D
Quote from: mikeylikey on January 15, 2008, 07:10:46 PM
^ They should ditch the foliage green anything and keep black accessories. Since they are in such availability, why create more costs. BUT it is the Govt.
The problem is black looks very funny with these suits, which are much lighter than woodland BDU's.
The Army has the same problem with their berets and the ACU's - I call it "Ranger's Revenge."
Quote from: ddelaney103 on January 15, 2008, 07:54:50 PM
The Army has the same problem with their berets and the ACU's - I call it "Ranger's Revenge."
Wich they would ditch the beanie. It's annoying, and I've still run into only a handful that know how to wear it right.
Quote from: Stonewall on January 15, 2008, 12:55:31 PM
Got my first set of ABUs this weekend at drill. Cut out the inner-breast pockets and extra material. Those things run big. I got 36R and the "R" for regular must mean for people over 7' tall. I was told they ran big, or long, so I got regs instead of long. Things almost go past my toes and I'm about 6' 2".
I'm 5'7" and I'm wearing the 32R pants since the MCSS didn't have any S pants in stock. They barely fit me. The bottom of the lower leg pockets ends up being like half an inch below the top of my boot. I would have thought the R's would fit you since you're 6'2".
^^crazy how that works, huh.
I hear that the boots are extremely comfortable. Any chance they'd be phased into the new 39-1?
^ I hope so. We could have had it proposed for the latest Board meeting, but alas, it was not!
My MCSS has not sold black boots for over a year now. Wright-Patt has not sold black boots for 3 months now. We need to change to Tan boots, and we need to change soon. It would be a real shame if we have to keep buying black boots, and in a few years, the majority will be foreign made black boots, and that's not COOL.
So to those reading this from NHQ......get working on it NOW!
^^Please; if you do, we promise not to raid NHQ or start a letter campaign
ABU boots are sage green not tan
Quote from: NCO forever on February 09, 2008, 01:30:20 PM
ABU boots are sage green not tan
Even better as they would match our current woodland BDU's!
Quote from: NCO forever on February 09, 2008, 01:30:20 PM
ABU boots are sage green not tan
The tan boots are permitted with the ABU until people can get sage ones. Both are being worn with the ABU at present.
Quote from: LittleIronPilot on February 09, 2008, 03:39:08 PMEven better as they would match our current woodland BDU's!
Already seen that done. They don't. And the "moldy green" I've heard them called is entirely apt.
Want a green boot that matched the woodlands? Jungle boots. That's about it.
Quote from: Hawk200 on February 09, 2008, 04:26:50 PM
Quote from: NCO forever on February 09, 2008, 01:30:20 PM
ABU boots are sage green not tan
The tan boots are permitted with the ABU until people can get sage ones. Both are being worn with the ABU at present.
I stand corrected.
Here on Nellis I've seen a lot of guys wearing the green boot with BDU's and it does not look all that bad.
Quote from: mikeylikey on February 09, 2008, 03:55:53 AM
^ I hope so. We could have had it proposed for the latest Board meeting, but alas, it was not!
My MCSS has not sold black boots for over a year now. Wright-Patt has not sold black boots for 3 months now. We need to change to Tan boots, and we need to change soon. It would be a real shame if we have to keep buying black boots, and in a few years, the majority will be foreign made black boots, and that's not COOL.
So to those reading this from NHQ......get working on it NOW!
Yes! Please! Let's make rampant cadet blisters at encampment a thing of the past.
Quote from: MikeTA on February 10, 2008, 05:10:53 PMYes! Please! Let's make rampant cadet blisters at encampment a thing of the past.
So how does the fact that a boot is not made in the USA have anything to do with blisters?
Either the boot is broken in and it fits or it isn't.
And the vast majority of blisters that cadets get at encampment are caused by boots that are either brand new or boots that don't fit or both.
^ I took the cadets post as meaning something along the line as lets get away from cheap and shoty imports that aren't as well constructed as those made to MILSPEC standards.
That still doesn't invalidate his response either. Blisters can be caused by all three. The issue needs to be fixed.
^ Oh no, I agree! Boots should be well broken in before coming to a Cadet Activity like Encampment. In fact, At the last Encampment I was at, as a rule I had all the Cadets who came with brand new boots that they picked up before Encampment and did not break in, TAKE them off and wear their tennis shoes all week.
The military does the same. When I staffed ROTC "Basic Camp" at Fort Knox last summer, Cadets that showed up with boots not broken in (when they were told specifically to break their boots in at home) we had them wear tennis shoes. I think the term used for that group of cadets was the "Tennis shoe Brigade" ;D
Training is hampered when you get bad enough blisters from boots. Simple way around that, either break them in before the training, or wear tennis shoes!
You're right. I typed incorrectly. It would just be better if regulation boots were more comfortable like the sage green ones worn with the ABU.
Quote from: MikeTA on February 11, 2008, 08:38:30 PM
You're right. I typed incorrectly. It would just be better if regulation boots were more comfortable like the sage green ones worn with the ABU.
Many different types of boots will be and actually already are made in sage green. We're seeing from ICB to standard Altama combat boot to jump boots being made in the fabric/color.
The most procured item will be the ICB. They're already sold in black leather if you want. Hot and temperate versions.
I've been told that BDU's are becoming scarce right now. Soon, CAP will have to switch to some other utility uniform. Does anyone know when the Air Force will give CAP the official "OK" to wear ABUs?
No, no one knows yet. That Q has been asked almost weekly since the new uniforms came out, and the answer remains the same. I'm sure that will quickly become a "sticky" thread in the uniform section when the decision is made.
Thank you, Major Bowles.
Quote from: SarDragon on March 10, 2008, 11:49:54 PM
No, no one knows yet. That Q has been asked almost weekly since the new uniforms came out, and the answer remains the same. I'm sure that will quickly become a "sticky" thread in the uniform section when the decision is made.
Almost worth making it a sticky thread now...
You know what would be nice? If CAP worked something out with the AF for use to be able to trade our BDU's and BDU accessories (GORTEX, Field Jackets, not boots) for ABU's. Or at least something like 1st set of BDU's for free, 2nd and 3rd set at 1/2 price, Gortex and other stuff at 1/2 price for first accessory 2/3 for 2nd and 3rd.
^ Now that is a great idea, it would save many lots of $$. Downside is that it would never get approved.
Quote from: 2d Lt Rudin on March 11, 2008, 04:24:26 AM
You know what would be nice? If CAP worked something out with the AF for use to be able to trade our BDU's and BDU accessories (GORTEX, Field Jackets, not boots) for ABU's. Or at least something like 1st set of BDU's for free, 2nd and 3rd set at 1/2 price, Gortex and other stuff at 1/2 price for first accessory 2/3 for 2nd and 3rd.
What would the AF want them back for? They already threw them out...that's how we got them. Besides, the AF doesn't sell the clothing, AAFES does. They're not going to do this out of the goodness of their heart. A mere pipedream...but like you said, it "would be nice".
Quote from: A.Member on March 11, 2008, 05:15:29 AM
Quote from: 2d Lt Rudin on March 11, 2008, 04:24:26 AM
You know what would be nice? If CAP worked something out with the AF for use to be able to trade our BDU's and BDU accessories (GORTEX, Field Jackets, not boots) for ABU's. Or at least something like 1st set of BDU's for free, 2nd and 3rd set at 1/2 price, Gortex and other stuff at 1/2 price for first accessory 2/3 for 2nd and 3rd.
What would the AF want them back for? They already threw them out...that's how we got them. Besides, the AF doesn't sell the clothing, AAFES does.
Yes, however a reservist can bring in his/her old uniforms that are unserviceable and trade them for serviceable ones, at least in the Navy. And I have already been told that when the new Navy uniforms come out for fleet wide distribution I am more than welcome to trade my old uniforms for the new ones at no cost to me.
Officers are never issued free uniforms (except for specific combat related items). As a CAP Officer the same "buy your own" tradition is extended to US. That is why there is a Free Cadet Uniform program, not a Free Senior Member Uniform Program. Crystal?
Quote from: 2d Lt Rudin on March 11, 2008, 05:20:53 AMYes, however a reservist can bring in his/her old uniforms that are unserviceable and trade them for serviceable ones, at least in the Navy. And I have already been told that when the new Navy uniforms come out for fleet wide distribution I am more than welcome to trade my old uniforms for the new ones at no cost to me.
It's like that in the Army and Air Guard too. Trade in non-servicable uniforms for new ones. However, with the ABUs, we're just getting them issued with no need for BDU trade-in. Tells me they have no need for BDUs. Not to mention it does cost the unit money to order them and I'm not sure there would be a unit out there interested in purchasing ABUs for CAP.
So, Rudin, you're in the Navy Reserves? Ever think of going Air Guard? Good bonuses....better duty.... :angel:
Quote from: Stonewall on March 11, 2008, 12:16:59 PM
So, Rudin, you're in the Navy Reserves? Ever think of going Air Guard? Good bonuses....better duty.... :angel:
I did, but at the time when I was separating from AD the Guard (Both Air and Army) told me I would have to take a reduction in rank from E5 to E4, same with the AF Reserves. I worked my ass off to make E5 in less than 3 years, don't really feel like giving that up. Also the in the NR there is no 1 weekend a month 2 weeks a year, your required to do 48 days of service a year(works out to the same as 1 w/e a month 2 weeks a year), and they don't have to be consecutive. Being a full time student this really works for me. I can do all 48 days over the summer, or if I'm low on cash a drill weekend is only a phone call away. I may think about it if I make E6, but still got about a year in TIG left, unless I can squeeze a EP out of my butt, then I can take the test in September.
We just got two prior Navy E-5s in my unit and they kept their rank. Only rank reduction I've ever heard of is when someone was an E-6 in a different career field (Corpsman) and cross over to something else (Security Police). Other than that, across the board (I've been in Army and Air Guard and AF Reserves) E-5 from any branch is a direct transfer.
Glad you stayed in though, regardless of branch. Always sucks to see someone throw away their TIS.
Got no issues taking folks in grade on the Army side either, NCO or officer, even with career field changes. They just get sent to the appropriate job 7 leadership schools for their MOS & move out. No big deal. It's more about finding a unit that will agree to take them in the appropriate grade related slot. That gets harder as you move higher in rank, but E5 is no issue at all, not here anyway, prob shouldn't try to speak for the whole country.
At my local surplus shoppe, they sell cotton tee shirts that are a very light tan. Are plain cotton tees approved with the ABU/ACU?
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 11, 2008, 12:13:14 PM
Officers are never issued free uniforms (except for specific combat related items). As a CAP Officer the same "buy your own" tradition is extended to US. That is why there is a Free Cadet Uniform program, not a Free Senior Member Uniform Program. Crystal?
LOL
The reason why military officers aren't ISSUED uniforms is because they get paid enough to afford them. Most enlisted people don't. That's why the enlisted get their uniforms issued.
How much do we make as CAP officers again?
Quote from: Stonewall on March 11, 2008, 05:01:41 PM
We just got two prior Navy E-5s in my unit and they kept their rank. Only rank reduction I've ever heard of is when someone was an E-6 in a different career field (Corpsman) and cross over to something else (Security Police). Other than that, across the board (I've been in Army and Air Guard and AF Reserves) E-5 from any branch is a direct transfer.
Glad you stayed in though, regardless of branch. Always sucks to see someone throw away their TIS.
There's usually a reduction when you go from Res/Guard to AD, not the other way around. The reason for that is because traditional reservists/guardsmen don't perform their duties as often as their active duty counterparts and are thus considered to be less experienced.
Quote from: JThemann on March 13, 2008, 02:17:29 AM
At my local surplus shoppe, they sell cotton tee shirts that are a very light tan. Are plain cotton tees approved with the ABU/ACU?
Yes. Cotton, blended and synthetic sand color crew neck t-shirts are approved for wear with the ABU.
Quote from: afgeo4 on March 13, 2008, 04:17:02 PM
LOL
The reason why military officers aren't ISSUED uniforms is because they get paid enough to afford them. Most enlisted people don't. That's why the enlisted get their uniforms issued.
How much do we make as CAP officers again?
Ummm ya.....I had to open a credit card to pay for my set of uniforms before I was Commissioned. I hate credit cards, and it took me almost 6 months to pay it off cause a 2LT (2nd Lt) doesn't make all that much. All set up, my payments to AAFES totaled around $1200.
As for CAP, I think I have spent somewhere around $1,000 on uniforms to include my cadeting days. Thats alot also.......
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 13, 2008, 04:35:00 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on March 13, 2008, 04:17:02 PM
LOL
The reason why military officers aren't ISSUED uniforms is because they get paid enough to afford them. Most enlisted people don't. That's why the enlisted get their uniforms issued.
How much do we make as CAP officers again?
Ummm ya.....I had to open a credit card to pay for my set of uniforms before I was Commissioned. I hate credit cards, and it took me almost 6 months to pay it off cause a 2LT (2nd Lt) doesn't make all that much. All set up, my payments to AAFES totaled around $1200.
As for CAP, I think I have spent somewhere around $1,000 on uniforms to include my cadeting days. Thats alot also.......
I agree... as an O-1 making his/her first uniform purchases it's A LOT. However, take the average officer's salary and the average officer's annual uniform expenses and you'll see that it's not so much proportionally.
yeah, that's later when you're making more & buying less per year. When you have to get a full set-up, including service & dress uniforms, it's a fortune, trust me on this.
Quote from: afgeo4 on March 13, 2008, 04:17:02 PMThe reason why military officers aren't ISSUED uniforms is because they get paid enough to afford them. Most enlisted people don't. That's why the enlisted get their uniforms issued.
That's not exactly true. If you dig down into some of the supply stuff, you'll see that enlisted folks get paid for their uniform.
There is an initial clothing allowance that turns into your recruit training clothing issue. From then on, annually, a clothing allowance is paid, based on the projected life of uniforms and how many are required to be maintained. Any uniform items above and beyond that are paid for by the member. In my time in the Navy, I was never able to spend just a year's worth of clothing allowance on a year's worth of uniforms.
The only time I was ever "issued" any uniform items after recruit training was when they did a service-wide uniform change (utility uniform one time, and dress blues two other times). Organizational clothing was an entirely different matter, and isn't part of this discussion.
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 11, 2008, 12:13:14 PM
Officers are never issued free uniforms (except for specific combat related items).
True, but items issued to cadets/officer candidates are free and may be kept after commissioning.
This is true. But a lot of the items that an ROTC cadet is issued at 18 might not fit at 22. I also had to put a uniform deposit down when ROTC issued me blues, BDU's and PT gear. I just turned my uniforms back in and opted for a new set. I would venture to say I spend about 500 a year on uniforms.
Quote from: CCSE on March 13, 2008, 11:48:56 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 11, 2008, 12:13:14 PM
Officers are never issued free uniforms (except for specific combat related items).
True, but items issued to cadets/officer candidates are free and may be kept after commissioning.
Ummm no. Sorry to inform you, but Cadets are given the option before they Commission to purchase those uniforms they wore through ROTC. They are slightly less expensive then new ones, and I have no idea why you would want to keep the uniforms you may have been wearing for 4 years anyway. In Army ROTC Cadets are allowed to keep their PT clothes whether they stay in the program or drop out or kicked out. Frankly we don't want them back ;) (the unit eats the cost of PT jacket and pants, but the shorts and Long and short sleeve shirts are written off). A "freebie" if you will from Uncle Sam.
However, Army Cadets are required to purchase the Dress Blues if they are going on Active Duty, along with a minimum of four sets of ACU's (maybe more depending on which courses you will be going to after you Commission). Don't forget the beret, and a slew of other uniform items that are required of all officers. even if you did keep your Class A's from your cadet days, you might get away with wearing the jacket after you sew the sleeve braid on, but you still have to sew the braid on the pants. You might as well spend the small bit to just buy Officer pants to begin with.
Someone will probably be mad that I am bringing this back up, however with all the comments about how hard it will be to get woodland BDU's I just can't resist pointing out that Tru Spec still makes 6 color desert BDU's (available here http://tinyurl.com/2khq4a ) which haven't been used since just after the first gulf war.
Quote from: 2d Lt Rudin on March 25, 2008, 01:41:10 AM
Someone will probably be mad that I am bringing this back up, however with all the comments about how hard it will be to get woodland BDU's I just can't resist pointing out that Tru Spec still makes 6 color desert BDU's (available here http://tinyurl.com/2khq4a ) which haven't been used since just after the first gulf war.
They are being used, just not by the U.S. military. They are being worn by the new Iraqi military.
I don't think the AF or DoD want CAP or any other organization tied to the military wearing the uniform of a foreign military power.
Quote from: CCSE on March 25, 2008, 02:13:52 AM
Quote from: 2d Lt Rudin on March 25, 2008, 01:41:10 AM
Someone will probably be mad that I am bringing this back up, however with all the comments about how hard it will be to get woodland BDU's I just can't resist pointing out that Tru Spec still makes 6 color desert BDU's (available here http://tinyurl.com/2khq4a ) which haven't been used since just after the first gulf war.
They are being used, just not by the U.S. military. They are being worn by the new Iraqi military.
I don't think the AF or DoD want CAP or any other organization tied to the military wearing the uniform of a foreign military power.
I wasn't saying we should be wearing them, just pointing out that they still make them, so I don't think we have to worry about not being able to find Woodland BSU's.
Quote from: 2d Lt Rudin on March 25, 2008, 03:46:27 AM
Quote from: CCSE on March 25, 2008, 02:13:52 AM
Quote from: 2d Lt Rudin on March 25, 2008, 01:41:10 AM
Someone will probably be mad that I am bringing this back up, however with all the comments about how hard it will be to get woodland BDU's I just can't resist pointing out that Tru Spec still makes 6 color desert BDU's (available here http://tinyurl.com/2khq4a ) which haven't been used since just after the first gulf war.
They are being used, just not by the U.S. military. They are being worn by the new Iraqi military.
I don't think the AF or DoD want CAP or any other organization tied to the military wearing the uniform of a foreign military power.
I wasn't saying we should be wearing them, just pointing out that they still make them, so I don't think we have to worry about not being able to find Woodland BSU's.
And how much do those Tru-Spec BDU's cost? I'm willing to bet it way more then what we're paying in Clothing Sales.
Quote from: PHall on March 25, 2008, 03:52:37 AM
Quote from: 2d Lt Rudin on March 25, 2008, 03:46:27 AM
Quote from: CCSE on March 25, 2008, 02:13:52 AM
Quote from: 2d Lt Rudin on March 25, 2008, 01:41:10 AM
Someone will probably be mad that I am bringing this back up, however with all the comments about how hard it will be to get woodland BDU's I just can't resist pointing out that Tru Spec still makes 6 color desert BDU's (available here http://tinyurl.com/2khq4a ) which haven't been used since just after the first gulf war.
They are being used, just not by the U.S. military. They are being worn by the new Iraqi military.
I don't think the AF or DoD want CAP or any other organization tied to the military wearing the uniform of a foreign military power.
I wasn't saying we should be wearing them, just pointing out that they still make them, so I don't think we have to worry about not being able to find Woodland BSU's.
And how much do those Tru-Spec BDU's cost? I'm willing to bet it way more then what we're paying in Clothing Sales.
6 color Desert Top:34.99 bottom: 34.99
Woodland Top:39.99 Bottom:39.99
ACU top 56.99 bottom:56.99
Discounts for bulk orders:
Woodland:
Shirt:
Quan. 1-11 12-72 73-144 145+
Price $39.99 $33.39 $31.05 $28.98
Pants:
Quan. 1-11 12-72 73-144 145+
Price $39.99 $33.39 $31.05 $28.98
Even with the Bulk Order discount, they're still about $10 - 15 more then MCSS for the blouse and the trousers. That's about $30 per cadet. Sure way to make Mom and Dad complain.
Those ACU prices are WAY off as well.
for those of you who are woried about what the cadets should pay. Here is what CAP's biggest compeditor requires for unicorms
http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/default.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&C2=UNIFORMS&C3=TROUSERS&C4=&LV=3 (http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/default.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&C2=UNIFORMS&C3=TROUSERS&C4=&LV=3)
http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=UNIFORMS&C3=USHIRTS&C4=&LV=3&item=BSLSS&prodid=BSLSS^8^01RTL& (http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=UNIFORMS&C3=USHIRTS&C4=&LV=3&item=BSLSS&prodid=BSLSS%5E8%5E01RTL&)
Right now I wouldn't be worrying about pricing as we don't have approval for the ABU yet. When we finally get the approval the prices may have come down by then.
Quote from: isuhawkeye on March 25, 2008, 12:21:36 PM
for those of you who are woried about what the cadets should pay. Here is what CAP's biggest compeditor requires for unicorms
http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/default.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&C2=UNIFORMS&C3=TROUSERS&C4=&LV=3 (http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/default.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&C2=UNIFORMS&C3=TROUSERS&C4=&LV=3)
http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=UNIFORMS&C3=USHIRTS&C4=&LV=3&item=BSLSS&prodid=BSLSS^8^01RTL& (http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=UNIFORMS&C3=USHIRTS&C4=&LV=3&item=BSLSS&prodid=BSLSS%5E8%5E01RTL&)
Yes, but members of the Boy Scouts generally don't purchase all the required uniform items; many of them just buy the shirt and wear jeans with them... at least in my neck of the woods.
I agree with BillB that within 5 years we could see the phase out of the BDU. Given that BDU came in the early ninties, the trend would fit. Theoretically, the AF could have fully distributed ABU's to the entire service and a surplus could exist for the rest of us.
If all else fails, you could always go Field Uniform.
How the heck did the Boy Scouts get brought into a thread about the ABU's. Weird.
Anyway, we had our chance to get a huge list of uniform items presented and the process started to clean up the mess. However, the NHQ uniform guy is an idiot, and reccomended stupid things at the last board meeting. (like get rid of silver braid for blue braid to make CAP distinctive from AF, when the AF already wears blue). The guy needs fired for such a ridiculous presentation.
I thought CAP might get ABU's, but after pondering it for a few months, I have a very good feeling we will all be forced into the blue BDU's, most likely in less than 5 years. I also believe the green bags will disappear, and we will be forced out of the AF service dress as well.
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 25, 2008, 04:34:06 PM
I thought CAP might get ABU's, but after pondering it for a few months, I have a very good feeling we will all be forced into the blue BDU's, most likely in less than 5 years. I also believe the green bags will disappear, and we will be forced out of the AF service dress as well.
Why do you think we won't get the ABU's all of a sudden? Is it because we don't have them yet? When the Air Force went over to BDU's it took us years till we got them. So hold your horses there bucko. I doubt the green bags will disappear as well as I doubt we'll be forced out of the AF service dress. We are the Air Force Auxillary, we will always be wearing their service uniform.
And if you still think we might loose the Air Force Service Dress just because there are changes being made left, right, and center maybe it's time you left the program because you don't like how things are run and that things change.
Quote from: link on March 25, 2008, 05:33:07 PMWhy do you think we won't get the ABU's all of a sudden? Is it because we don't have them yet? When the Air Force went over to BDU's it took us years till we got them. So hold your horses there bucko. I doubt the green bags will disappear as well as I doubt we'll be forced out of the AF service dress. We are the Air Force Auxillary, we will always be wearing their service uniform.
And if you still think we might loose the Air Force Service Dress just because there are changes being made left, right, and center maybe it's time you left the program because you don't like how things are run and that things change.
No. CAP serves at the pleasure of the Air Force. They can yank away
any of their uniforms from CAP at
any time; it is not dependent on the approval of CAP, the CAP/CC, the NB, or the NEC. Congress may protect CAP's charter, but there is no right to wear AF uniforms within CAP.
There are members (some high ranking) who believe CAP is on an equal level with the Air Force. Wrong. CAP is not even a part of the AF Total Force Structure, and every privilige CAP has is fragile and dependent on the conduct of both the membership and the leadership.
I would very much like to see the same relationship between the CG Auxiliary and the CG be applied to CAP and the AF, but that is something that must be
earned, and the onus is on CAP. Some folks don't like that responsibility, and those are the people CAP can do without.
Quote from: link on March 25, 2008, 05:33:07 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 25, 2008, 04:34:06 PM
I thought CAP might get ABU's, but after pondering it for a few months, I have a very good feeling we will all be forced into the blue BDU's, most likely in less than 5 years. I also believe the green bags will disappear, and we will be forced out of the AF service dress as well.
Why do you think we won't get the ABU's all of a sudden? Is it because we don't have them yet? When the Air Force went over to BDU's it took us years till we got them. So hold your horses there bucko. I doubt the green bags will disappear as well as I doubt we'll be forced out of the AF service dress. We are the Air Force Auxillary, we will always be wearing their service uniform.
And if you still think we might loose the Air Force Service Dress just because there are changes being made left, right, and center maybe it's time you left the program because you don't like how things are run and that things change.
Well first, I got big problems with major aspects of the program, how things are run, and am very frustrated with the inability to effect change - it's literally easier for lowly me to change policy of the whole big Army than it is CAP. That's insane. I've been with CAP for a long time though & don't really intend on leaving, not this week anyway.
That said. The AF stated even before ABUs were finalized that CAP would eventually transition to them, but only after the supply chain was sufficient & their people were covered first.
As far as movement to BBDU, that won't happen either. When BDUs were the popular trend in tactical utility wear, manufactures made the same pattern/material in many colors (hence blue). However, ACU/ABU are the currently popular design trend. They're already making the pattern in other colors (incl dark blue). Eventually, that will be all that's readily avail at a reasonable price. That means transitioning that uniform as well, which then makes the finances of going from BDU to ABU a wash.
Another concern is the similarity to newer Navy/CG utility uniforms. That makes the BBDU less distinguishable from mil, which is significant in that CG is a SaR agency that many of us interact with in the field more often than we do the AF.
Quote from: link on March 25, 2008, 05:33:07 PM
And if you still think we might loose the Air Force Service Dress just because there are changes being made left, right, and center maybe it's time you left the program because you don't like how things are run and that things change.
Ouch!
Don't forget around 37 percent (based on my calculator math skills) were forced out of AF uniforms not too long ago! You may not have been around for that, but I was. Those that are "heavier" are not afforded the same rights the AF affords its own members by allowing tapping if you bust the weight regs.
I can personally relate, I am not hugely obese, I work out and lift everyday, and because of that I would by all accounts bust AF weight standards all the time and require a taping and body fat measurement. If I were in the AF, I would be allowed to keep wearing the AF uniform, but because the AF said no to taping CAP members, I come very close to not being allowed to wear AF style. That is a huge slap in the face for many members.
Don't forget too, there was no weight standard for CAP members, that was strictly the AF saying "get out of our uniforms, you embarrass us".
Finally, please don't reccomend I leave the CAP because I don't like how things are run. I never said anything like that in my post, I have no idea where you got that and I am somewhat angered. Please read some of my previous posts for the past 2 years, and you can get an understanding of the type of person I am. Because if we are going to base assumptions about people solely from one single post, well then you Sir are a (fill in this bank) <------ See I don't know you yet, so I can't even say what type of person you are! Just remember I don't hate you!
AF hassn't said no to having a tape test as part of our standards. They haven't been asked. The extra 10% or whatever on the tables is supposed to cover that, but it hasn't been updated concurrent with AF standards.
Taping would obviously cause problems. We're used to a little humiliation in the military & don't take it personally, but you know a lot of civilians would freak out. It'd be hard to keep accountability on as well & the administration would be a hassle. I think it's doable though & anything that puts more members back in AF-style uniforms I'm in favor of.
Quote from: CCSE on March 25, 2008, 06:01:45 PMCongress may protect CAP's charter, but there is no right to wear AF uniforms within CAP.
Beg to differ. Just look at what the ACA and several military schools do. We don't "need" the USAF's permission to wear the USAF uniform. (I am not advocating this....just pointing out technicalities of the law). I have looked at both CAP regs and AFIs and I can't find one place where it says that the USAF has veto rights over the USAF style uniforms.
As for us "earning" the right to wear the uniform or enjoing a different relationship with the USAF....you got it all wrong. CONGRESS has mandated the relationship....we get to play whether the USAF wants us to or not. And right now the USAF can't afford to loose us.
Quote from: lordmonar on March 25, 2008, 08:17:09 PM
Beg to differ. Just look at what the ACA and several military schools do. We don't "need" the USAF's permission to wear the USAF uniform. (I am not advocating this....just pointing out technicalities of the law). I have looked at both CAP regs and AFIs and I can't find one place where it says that the USAF has veto rights over the USAF style uniforms.
True, but the AF
can mandate the color of epaulets and nametags, prevent hard rank from being worn, and do other things that the ACA and several military schools don't have to worry about.
And why do the ACA and several military schools not have to worry about wearing grey epaulets and nametags and have hard rank taken away? Because they have not damaged the relationships with the services they represent.
In other words,
they earned it. Quote from: lordmonar on March 25, 2008, 08:17:09 PMAs for us "earning" the right to wear the uniform or enjoing a different relationship with the USAF....you got it all wrong. CONGRESS has mandated the relationship....we get to play whether the USAF wants us to or not. And right now the USAF can't afford to loose us.
I stand corrected about the authority to wear the AF uniform,
however...
Congress may have mandated the relationship, but I can tell you with absolute certainty that if CAP does not play by the Air Force's rules, the relationship between CAP and the USAF will not get any better. This includes uniforms.
Now, if the CAP leadership want to start cracking down on the "I'm just a volunteer" attitude and every infraction and excuse that goes with it, then maybe things will get better.
Well here we go with our relationship with the USAF again.....everytime I talk to someone in the USAF (besides me) who deals with CAP...they have nothing but good things to say about us.
Sure we step on our own appendages from time to time...but so does the USAF. The understand that individuals are not CAP.
And I understand the need to work with the USAF and not do an end around with them.
But I have to tell you that the ACA and other military schools do not "earn" the right to wear uniforms....it is the law...they can wear the unifrom even if they piss off every military service. They military services can't stop them from wearing the uniform....so long as they wear a patch on their unifroms stating that they are a school/educational program.
I just want to point this out to the doom and gloomers. We enjoy a good relationship with the USAF dispite electing some poor leaders....dispite our lack of enforcing uniform standards....dispite our seeming unending internal politics. If we did not they would stop funding us.
Quote from: lordmonar on March 25, 2008, 09:29:10 PM
I just want to point this out to the doom and gloomers. We enjoy a good relationship with the USAF dispite electing some poor leaders....dispite our lack of enforcing uniform standards....dispite our seeming unending internal politics. If we did not they would stop funding us.
Here, here! And isn't that what the VSAF program is about? A good working relationship with the Air Force. It is making our ties stronger not weaker. I can't wait till the program is out of it's Pilot Phase and gets started up at other bases too.
Quote from: lordmonar on March 25, 2008, 09:29:10 PM
Well here we go with our relationship with the USAF again.....everytime I talk to someone in the USAF (besides me) who deals with CAP...they have nothing but good things to say about us.
Then obviously the relationship between CAP and Nellis is good. It's not like that everywhere, however.
Quote from: lordmonar on March 25, 2008, 09:29:10 PMSure we step on our own appendages from time to time...but so does the USAF. The understand that individuals are not CAP.
Yes, but the Air Force has an IG and quality assurance system that is more reliable than CAP's. Why that is I don't know... maybe it's because the AF IG's and QA personnel are actually paid... but one is definitely more reliable than the other.
There's something called MTBF... Mean Time Between Failures... that measures how long something can go without a problem. I'm guessing the AF IG's MTBF is twice as long as CAP's.
Quote from: lordmonar on March 25, 2008, 09:29:10 PM
But I have to tell you that the ACA and other military schools do not "earn" the right to wear uniforms....it is the law...they can wear the unifrom even if they piss off every military service. They military services can't stop them from wearing the uniform....so long as they wear a patch on their unifroms stating that they are a school/educational program.
So... because CAP no longer wears wing patches on the blues, they can be taken away by the AF. Got it. Now I know why the reverse American flag patch was made mandatory for the BDU!
Quote from: lordmonar on March 25, 2008, 09:29:10 PMI just want to point this out to the doom and gloomers. We enjoy a good relationship with the USAF dispite electing some poor leaders....dispite our lack of enforcing uniform standards....dispite our seeming unending internal politics. If we did not they would stop funding us.
I hope Col Hodgkins and all the CAP-USAF personnel see it the same way, sir.
Back to the topic... I predict that when the AF is able to supply every airman with 4 sets of ABU's, CAP will get them.
Quote from: CCSE on March 25, 2008, 10:24:02 PM
Back to the topic... I predict that when the AF is able to supply every airman with 4 sets of ABU's, CAP will get them.
It's not a prediction, it's a statement of fact from the AF. The only thing left to speculate on is when that may happen & what we'll be attaching to them (colors)
Quote from: DNall on March 25, 2008, 10:32:05 PM
Quote from: CCSE on March 25, 2008, 10:24:02 PM
Back to the topic... I predict that when the AF is able to supply every airman with 4 sets of ABU's, CAP will get them.
It's not a prediction, it's a statement of fact from the AF. The only thing left to speculate on is when that may happen & what we'll be attaching to them (colors)
Let's hope it's something other than the ultramarine blue. I'm stuck on the subdued nametapes. There is no real reason we can't wear them. I know, I know. Wishful thinking.
I just came back from a meeting this afternoon at Edwards AFB....First on the ABU....I noticed the AF is not enforcing the hgt/wgt requirements with any gusto...I saw 3 airmen walking into the BX. All 3 had on the ABU. A female Master Sgt was about 5'5" and had to weight upwards of 180 lbs. She was soooo wide, she would have to sit down in shifts. A male with her was about 6'00" and had to be weighing in at 250.
Two....CAP was again well treated. It was an EOM briefing for the space shuttle. The Brig General in charge treated me as part of the overall DOD team. I was treated and addressed no differently than regular AF including folks from 1st AF who were there. Maybe it's just the relationship I Have with the Shuttle Team or the outstanding way my crew has performed in both real landings or exercises.
Carry on...
Quote from: Smokey on March 26, 2008, 12:58:48 AM
Two....CAP was again well treated. It was an EOM briefing for the space shuttle. The Brig General in charge treated me as part of the overall DOD team. I was treated and addressed no differently than regular AF including folks from 1st AF who were there. Maybe it's just the relationship I Have with the Shuttle Team or the outstanding way my crew has performed in both real landings or exercises.
I'd say it's probably part relationship, and partly that you are known to be competent. A perfect example of when the AF sees the cream of the crop, they treat them professionally.
If you were an incompetent idiot, I have serious doubts that you would have even been a the meeting.
I'd have to say "Well done!". You've shown that CAP does have people that work within the rules, and do your job with a sense of professional pride.
^agreed.
Look, SF looks down on bid army, Army talks trash about the easy life AF, navy talks crap about Cg, marines talk crap about everyone cause they think they can get away with it. Active duty talks crap to national guard, even when you're in iraq together, but we're suddenly one Army when you're saving their butts. A whole lot, maybe most people, go into the mil cause they want to feel special & better than other people. the military implicitly encourages that as we build esprit de corps. That's all normal.
In that light, a lot of the AF looks at CAP as a bunch of disorganized undisciplined poorly trained civilians, and mostly old fogies, immature kids, rejects, or dodgers at that. The don't think we do anything all that important (by comparison to the big AF), we don't have big impressive gear, etc.
A lot of that is crap. It require educating the audience. River has made a good point about how CGAux is a required unit at their basic/commissioning sources. That's something AU/AETC could make happen. VSAF is a good step. I think we all know though that there is a lot of room for serious improvement on our part. Not to impress the AF, but because it makes us better, just as any valid criticism and adjustment should.
When it boils down though, actions speak louder than words. When they see you in there playing your role as part of the overall team, and doing so on standards they respect (competence), then things change. It's all going to be incremental, we just need to press ever forward.
In the meantime, we'll get ABUs eventually, don't worry about it too much at this point. You can't speed it up, all you can do is spin your wheels on something currently out of reach. just know it's def coming, and has nothing to do with the AF relationship one way or the other.
^ I am not so concerned with eventually getting ABU's, I am more concerned about boots right now. MCSS Army, does not carry black boots, an the woman at MCSS AF says this time next year they will stop carrying them as well, possibly sooner.
WE need to either allow tan, or that sage green AF boot immediately. I can no longer say "Cadet you need to go to this website and buy black boots for $125.00", without feeling weird about it.
Thew two DRMO's I have been to in the last 3 months no longer carry any boots, the National Guard (army of course) will most likely not be collecting black boots from members anymore, because they are all in tan anyway. Maybe the AF Reserve and Guard will swap out black for sage in the near future, but I doubt it. PLUS who really wants to wear someone Else's broken in boots anyway??
So, we all agree ABU's will come, lets get on the boot issue.
I say this because my black boots I picked up about 10 years ago are worn out. I switched them for Tan boots for Iraq and only wear black for CAP. I seriously do not want to purchase another set of black boots, which I may not wear that often to begin with.
While I agree there's more important stuff to discuss, I would say boots aren't it. While yes the military is going to other colors due to the uniform changes. However, we would have another source of black boots, Law Enforcement will still be using black boots. I myself have gotten a pair that is law enforcement type and they work fine. A good supplier is Galls, they've got great quality stuff.
^ Most of the online sources are not cheap enough for cadets though; at least, not for brand new cadets. That only leaves surplus stores, and I'm sure that they will be out of black boots soon enough.
We have hashed the ABU issue so much already.
I can't wait for the ABU, I'll be the first in line!
Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 26, 2008, 06:53:47 PM
I can't wait for the ABU, I'll be the first in line!
Where is your silver whistle and chain? ;D
^ oh dear God!
Boots are a fair issue to talk about. NHQ doesn't tend to take action on things until there's no reasonable supply at all, not just that it's dwindling. It'd require action from AF, which I don't know would be a priority for them. I guess if you made the point strong enough about the supply chain they might actually collect the black one as they trade out & deliver those over to us, but that's stop-gap.
The Air Force already authorised the sage boots with BDUs and flight suits...for this exact reason.
It would not be too unreasonable to ask for authorisation to wear the green boots now...so we are not asking our cadets to buy two sets of $100 boots in the next couple of years.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 26, 2008, 06:53:47 PM
I can't wait for the ABU, I'll be the first in line!
Yikes......
Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 26, 2008, 06:53:47 PM
I can't wait for the ABU, I'll be the first in line!
I'll be second!
Quote from: lordmonar on March 26, 2008, 07:58:04 PM
The Air Force already authorised the sage boots with BDUs and flight suits...for this exact reason.
It would not be too unreasonable to ask for authorisation to wear the green boots now...so we are not asking our cadets to buy two sets of $100 boots in the next couple of years.
But did they authorize them for us?
Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on March 28, 2008, 10:32:13 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on March 26, 2008, 07:58:04 PM
The Air Force already authorised the sage boots with BDUs and flight suits...for this exact reason.
It would not be too unreasonable to ask for authorisation to wear the green boots now...so we are not asking our cadets to buy two sets of $100 boots in the next couple of years.
But did they authorize them for us?
Not yet, hence the discussion.
Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on March 26, 2008, 03:40:29 PM
While I agree there's more important stuff to discuss, I would say boots aren't it. While yes the military is going to other colors due to the uniform changes. However, we would have another source of black boots, Law Enforcement will still be using black boots. I myself have gotten a pair that is law enforcement type and they work fine. A good supplier is Galls, they've got great quality stuff.
"law enforcement type" boots aren't authorized by our uniform regulations. Only authorized Air Force uniform items are. We've had discussions on this before where I've quoted the regs.
That DOES leave us with very few options on how to get boots. I too am faced with that situation as I am going to be attending the summer encampment. I also wonder what I can recommend the cadets in my unit.
I buy quality military authorized footwear because I care about my feet (in the field and in garrison). I would expect no less from others. Now... are there fake military type boots out there? Yup. Are there unauthorized tactical magnum type boots out there? Yup. I wouldn't wear any of those for encampment though and the McGuire AFB MCSS doesn't carry anything in black anymore. Just tan or green.
We need to switch before it becomes a problem, not after.
Quote from: afgeo4 on March 30, 2008, 01:49:58 AM
We need to switch before it becomes a problem, not after.
Agreed! We need to authorize Tan now, with Sage Green as an optional as we expect that to be the CAP boot to be worn with ABU's when we get them. Really, Black, Tan and Green boots in formation together is no big deal. Isn't AF still wearing tans and sage greens concurrently until what, 2009??
I visit a lot of air force websites and see pics of formations with people wearing all manner of uniform combinations.
Here is an army perspective.
(http://photos-g.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sctm/v184/185/108/97400735/n97400735_30160150_1129.jpg)
(http://photos-h.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sctm/v184/185/108/97400735/n97400735_30160151_1488.jpg)
^ Sweet......and so true!
my bet is the AF won't let CAP wear them at all, they probably have IR stuff in them for a cheap IFF or PNVS camouflage like the ACU, and the AF will say no to CAP. IMHO, CAP needs to allow wing commanders to authorize Desert Camouflage for their wings. In some places the woodland BDUs are out of place and absorb the already plentiful heat, allowing those wings to have desert boots would be nice as well
(http://desbducap.jpeg)
What?????
What about the IR stuff that was in BDU's that never stopped them from letting us wear them.
Quote from: jpnelson82 on March 31, 2008, 01:50:19 AM
my bet is never, the AF will not allow CAP to wear ABU's because of the IR stuff in them. If we are very lucky we may get to wear multicam eventually, but what I would like to see is authorization for wear of Desert Pattern BDU's Green Brown and Black with Black boots are hell out here in SWR. Give us chocolate chip desert or multicam. We're sweltering in the woodland with all leather boots.
Your bet would be wrong. AF has already said we get them (
when is the question of the years) . As for IR, BDU's had the same treatment, that would be flimsy, and even the Air Force isn't that stupid. The IR treatment doesn't make it a controlled item.
If Multicam gets used at all, it'll most likely be by the Army, not the Air Force. We have no practical reason to develop a uniform in Multicam. When it comes to a two piece utility, we'll wear what the AF wears. At least until we really tee them off, and they take away all their uniforms.
Deserts are pretty much going the same way as woodlands, they aren't as common anymore. We've been begging for years, for a
hat, do you really think you'll get a completely different uniform?
Quote from: jpnelson82 on March 31, 2008, 01:50:19 AM
my bet is never, the AF will not allow CAP to wear ABU's because of the IR stuff in them. If we are very lucky we may get to wear multicam eventually, but what I would like to see is authorization for wear of Desert Pattern BDU's Green Brown and Black with Black boots are hell out here in SWR. Give us chocolate chip desert or multicam. We're sweltering in the woodland with all leather boots.
You want to wear the chocolate chip deserts so you can look like the Iraqi Army? No thanks!
Quote from: Hawk200 on March 31, 2008, 02:47:50 AM
If Multicam gets used at all, it'll most likely be by the Army, not the Air Force. We have no practical reason to develop a uniform in Multicam. When it comes to a two piece utility, we'll wear what the AF wears. At least until we really tee them off, and they take away all their uniforms.
Yeah but if we choose multicam first then we can have subdued patches and it will be the military trying to look like us and then we can mandate they wear bright colored patches on them so they don't look too much like us. We can't have them looking just like us and we'd have the uniform first so we'll have dibs. ;)
Quote from: Hawk200 on March 31, 2008, 02:47:50 AM
Quote from: jpnelson82 on March 31, 2008, 01:50:19 AM
my bet is never, the AF will not allow CAP to wear ABU's because of the IR stuff in them. If we are very lucky we may get to wear multicam eventually, but what I would like to see is authorization for wear of Desert Pattern BDU's Green Brown and Black with Black boots are hell out here in SWR. Give us chocolate chip desert or multicam. We're sweltering in the woodland with all leather boots.
Your bet would be wrong. AF has already said we get them (when is the question of the years) . As for IR, BDU's had the same treatment, that would be flimsy, and even the Air Force isn't that stupid. The IR treatment doesn't make it a controlled item.
If Multicam gets used at all, it'll most likely be by the Army, not the Air Force. We have no practical reason to develop a uniform in Multicam. When it comes to a two piece utility, we'll wear what the AF wears. At least until we really tee them off, and they take away all their uniforms.
Deserts are pretty much going the same way as woodlands, they aren't as common anymore. We've been begging for years, for a hat, do you really think you'll get a completely different uniform?
TY, I didn't know the AF had already said we get the ABU. I think it's kinda silly to be wandering around the desert in Green,Brown, and Black. There aren't that many trees in the desert and it's slightly hotter in the desert than a forest and sunnier. The colors on woodland camo absorb solar radiation, something you don't want in the desert (quite the opposite).
So...I was at the MCSS at Nellis today looking for some random uniform accessories for my members and walked over to the boot section.
There are 12 different style of ABU boots available on the shelf. Pretty much all the styles that were offered for the black leather boots, even a pair of "marauders" like I wear now. Oh, and they were all under $100.00.
Perhaps a boot change over is in our future before we get the ABU's?!?!
Clothing Sales opened on a Sunday? Man wish mine had awesome hours like that!
One of our recurring concerns is the problems arising over CAP being seen as AD. Once Army and AF are all switched over to their new uniforms we should keep the BDU's so we have our different look.
It's not like we won't be able to get them. Too many companies are going to keep making them for LE and other organizations.
I've been wearing them for over 20 years and they've always worked good for me. Then maybe we could get subdued patches. (For no other reason than we won't look like dorks) ;)
Quote from: winterg on March 31, 2008, 11:08:26 PM
One of our recurring concerns is the problems arising over CAP being seen as AD. Once Army and AF are all switched over to their new uniforms we should keep the BDU's so we have our different look.
It's not like we won't be able to get them. Too many companies are going to keep making them for LE and other organizations.
I've been wearing them for over 20 years and they've always worked good for me. Then maybe we could get subdued patches. (For no other reason than we won't look like dorks) ;)
No, what will be gone is the cheap, ready supply we got from the military. And CAP has traditionally worn modified AF uniforms. CAP has plethora of corporate uniforms if you are concerned about looking too much like active duty.
And how would that help him avoid looking like a dork?
Quote from: nesagsar on April 01, 2008, 12:36:45 AM
And how would that help him avoid looking like a dork?
True, I'd probably look like a dork anyway! lol
the biggest reason we wear AF uniforms is because they are avail via surplus &/or prices are held down by economies of scale. That keeps the price down to cadets. Adults are expected to buy their own.
Quote from: Bayhawk21 on March 31, 2008, 03:44:14 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on March 31, 2008, 02:47:50 AM
If Multicam gets used at all, it'll most likely be by the Army, not the Air Force. We have no practical reason to develop a uniform in Multicam. When it comes to a two piece utility, we'll wear what the AF wears. At least until we really tee them off, and they take away all their uniforms.
Yeah but if we choose multicam first then we can have subdued patches and it will be the military trying to look like us and then we can mandate they wear bright colored patches on them so they don't look too much like us. We can't have them looking just like us and we'd have the uniform first so we'll have dibs. ;)
Sorry Jon,
The S.O. Secret Squirrel Community already beat you to it..... They already have those ultra cool "tan and maroon" patches. But I do agree Multicam is the S**T, DOD needs to pull a MacNamera and scrap all these Org. specific uniforms and standardize all of DOD on Multicam.
^ I think that's a truman, but whatever.
Now that the supply chain is caught up & the samples aren't free, they aren't really doing that anymore. They're in ACUs or ABUs as appropriate. Army SF kind of does what they want off the grid though. More like a t-shirt w/ IBA & ACUs pants over oakley boots & a baseball cap. With a can of dip in their pocket, two-week beard, and maybe a camelback.
I do like multi-cam though. I really wish half a dozen congressmen could come together & share the one brain cell long enough to figure out standardization is good.
Wewill not do desert boots with BDU's as long as the AF has a say in our uniforms, as the AF currently does not authorize that either. (It's an Army thing) Currently its mold green or tan with ABU's, BDU's are still as prescribed in the current AFI.
CAP going to DCU's is as pointless (if not more) as remaining in BDU's. There are still more people wearing BDU's than ACU's, so the "surpluss" of BDU's will still outweigh DCU's. Once the AF completes the transition to ABU's the availablility of DCU's will be the same as BDU's.
As far as "Law Enforcement" boots being forbidden, in my 16 years in the Army/Air Force I have never been asked to show my certificate of authenticity or "GI approved" stamp for my boots. As long as they are black and shinny no one has ever asked where they came from.
mk
More people in BDUs than ACUs? I really don't think so. BDUs are now pretty much completely phased out of the Army. The Marines aren't in BDUs, the Navy is moving off quickly. The AF are going to be the last people in BDUs, and they also are gearing up to change over quickly. As far as surplus, BDUs are NOT turned back in when ACU/ABU/MARPAT/etc are issued, so there is not a lot of surplus in the traditional sense.
As far as law enforcement boots, you know they weren't talking about some label. They mean not shiny, short, etc that are not similar to any authorized for wear, and you know absolutely don't look right.
Quote from: DNall on April 06, 2008, 04:05:41 AM
...the Navy is moving off quickly. The AF are going to be the last people in BDUs, ...
Navy exchange hasn't even started selling the new Navy uniforms. Air Force has Navy beat.
According to NAVADMIN 004-08, the new uniforms will be available this summer, with phase in at boot camp after the start of FY09 (so October of '08). 24 months for fleet wide distribution. So looking at October 2010 before everyone in the Navy is
supposed to have them, with mandatory wear date 1 year following that, so October 2011 (FY12) before the Navy is in their new uniforms.
Quote from: sarmed1 on April 05, 2008, 08:12:50 AM
Wewill not do desert boots with BDU's as long as the AF has a say in our uniforms, as the AF currently does not authorize that either. (It's an Army thing) Currently its mold green or tan with ABU's, BDU's are still as prescribed in the current AFI.
CAP going to DCU's is as pointless (if not more) as remaining in BDU's. There are still more people wearing BDU's than ACU's, so the "surpluss" of BDU's will still outweigh DCU's. Once the AF completes the transition to ABU's the availablility of DCU's will be the same as BDU's.
As far as "Law Enforcement" boots being forbidden, in my 16 years in the Army/Air Force I have never been asked to show my certificate of authenticity or "GI approved" stamp for my boots. As long as they are black and shinny no one has ever asked where they came from.
mk
1. Just because no one asked you, doesn't mean it's authorized and it doesn't mean you should go out and spend good money on it. You know... INTEGRITY.
2. I don't think we're asking for tan boots with BDUs. I think we're asking for sage green (ABU) boots with BDUs. There is a difference. A small one, but a difference. This is to help the CAP membership ease their transition into ABUs. The DoD may have raised Airmen's uniform allowance, but they haven't given us any raises to be able to afford the new uniforms all at once.
Quote from: sarmed1 on April 05, 2008, 08:12:50 AM
Wewill not do desert boots with BDU's as long as the AF has a say in our uniforms, as the AF currently does not authorize that either. (It's an Army thing) Currently its mold green or tan with ABU's, BDU's are still as prescribed in the current AFI.
As far as "Law Enforcement" boots being forbidden, in my 16 years in the Army/Air Force I have never been asked to show my certificate of authenticity or "GI approved" stamp for my boots. As long as they are black and shinny no one has ever asked where they came from.
mk
Better check the regs before you post next time.
According to The Air Force Uniform Board FAQ's (#54) on the AF Portal website, you can now wear the Green Boots with BDU's. You just have to wear the Black or Green socks with the Green Boots.
But did the AF Uniform Board authorize CAP to wear the green boots?
The answer is "no" and that was the point.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 06, 2008, 08:16:20 AM
But did the AF Uniform Board authorize CAP to wear the green boots?
The answer is "no" and that was the point.
No, and that's not what he said either. He said that the Air Force only allowed black boots with the BDU.
I corrected him and provided the reference for my answer.
If CAP is really going to the ABU, it probably wouldn't hurt to ask the Air Force if we could do as they are doing and be authorized to wear the green boots with our BDU's.
With the military market for black boots drying up, some of the boots that are very popular today may not be available in the future.
Sorry, I just meant the Tans with BDU's (I am aware of the mold with BDU allowance), and yes someone posted earlier that we should be authorized tans with BDU's.
As far as BDU vs DCU, I meant in regards to the AF. There is going to be no greater DCU availablilty than BDU's so lookng for a DCU authoriztion based on the idea of surplus DCU's being more avilable is false too. (especialy since the Army and USMC use they new digitals exclusively, and they are by far the larger representation of personnel in the AO)
As far as "unauthorized boots" the best stretch is the prohibition on mixxing civilian and military garments. The AFI doesnt spell out anywhere I could find about where boots come from, only somehting along the lines of combat or jungle....black with or without safety toe....zippers..blah blah blah. By that reasonong the bulk of military members I know are as equally lacking in integrety because they are not exclusively wearing socks, t-shirts, running shoes or undergarments from clothing sales....
mk
Even if we don't get ABUs, what are we gonna do about flight suits and the sage green boots. AF says OD green flight suits can be worn with sage green boots, and I anticipate a mandatory wear date on those. If we kept BDUs with black boots, our flight suiters may have to buy a second set of boots to follow in the AF model of the uniform.
Just something to think about.
If we stopped following the AF model with our field uniform....why should we follow it for our flight uniforms?
Just a matter of finding a good cheap source of Nomex flight suits. Once you move away from the standard USAF flight suit, it gets real expensive fast. And almost no market for non-military Nomex flight suits.
Quote from: lordmonar on April 07, 2008, 04:48:04 AM
If we stopped following the AF model with our field uniform....why should we follow it for our flight uniforms?
Theoretically, once the AF in no longer permitting the wear of BDU's for their service members, BDU's would become a CAP Corporate uniform. We could lift the restriction of weight/grooming standards, and make any changes we wanted to, including authorizing green boots.
^Not knowing if you're serious or not, why does the AF still theoretically control the old style Service Dress Uniform cadets are still authorized to wear?
Quote from: CASH172 on April 07, 2008, 06:09:19 AM
^Not knowing if you're serious or not, why does the AF still theoretically control the old style Service Dress Uniform cadets are still authorized to wear?
The AF controls Blues. The AF permits cadets to wear the old service jacket with the blues uniform for financial reasons, they don't have too. Just as SM are not permitted to wear it the AF can say the same about cadets.
Quote from: DNall on April 06, 2008, 04:05:41 AM
More people in BDUs than ACUs? I really don't think so. BDUs are now pretty much completely phased out of the Army.
30 APR 08 is the official BDU/Subdued Nametape phase out for the Army...I haven't seen a troop in BDU's for some time.
Quote from: CASH172 on April 07, 2008, 04:44:56 AM
Even if we don't get ABUs,
We will be getting the ABU. The Air Force has already stated this. They just haven't told us when. My guess is within 4 years we'll be in the ABU.
Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on April 07, 2008, 06:21:56 PM
Quote from: CASH172 on April 07, 2008, 04:44:56 AM
Even if we don't get ABUs,
We will be getting the ABU. The Air Force has already stated this. They just haven't told us when. My guess is within 4 years we'll be in the ABU.
When have they said this? The I-heard-from-a-friend-whose-friend's-uncle's-girlfriend-is-an-AF-officer doesn't qualify. When has the Air Force said for certain that CAP would be authorized to wear ABUs?
It was mentioned at the last NB IIRC....and the LO for PCR said the same thing.
It is not a matter of if we get to wear them...but when.
Quote from: DC on April 07, 2008, 11:17:10 PM
Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on April 07, 2008, 06:21:56 PM
Quote from: CASH172 on April 07, 2008, 04:44:56 AM
Even if we don't get ABUs,
We will be getting the ABU. The Air Force has already stated this. They just haven't told us when. My guess is within 4 years we'll be in the ABU.
When have they said this? The I-heard-from-a-friend-whose-friend's-uncle's-girlfriend-is-an-AF-officer doesn't qualify. When has the Air Force said for certain that CAP would be authorized to wear ABUs?
It was stated by AETC/CC prior to ABUs even being finalized. It is certain that CAP will always be in the same uniforms AF is wearing as long as CAP exists. This too is based on the finances of economies of scale, surplus manufacture capability, and surplus inventory. All of which is intended to hold down costs for cadets, not adults.
Sometimes I wonder if there some debates about the fatigue-BDU transition on some ancient BB somewhere.
Quote from: DNall on April 08, 2008, 04:55:48 AM
Quote from: DC on April 07, 2008, 11:17:10 PM
Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on April 07, 2008, 06:21:56 PM
Quote from: CASH172 on April 07, 2008, 04:44:56 AM
Even if we don't get ABUs,
We will be getting the ABU. The Air Force has already stated this. They just haven't told us when. My guess is within 4 years we'll be in the ABU.
When have they said this? The I-heard-from-a-friend-whose-friend's-uncle's-girlfriend-is-an-AF-officer doesn't qualify. When has the Air Force said for certain that CAP would be authorized to wear ABUs?
It was stated by AETC/CC prior to ABUs even being finalized. It is certain that CAP will always be in the same uniforms AF is wearing as long as CAP exists. This too is based on the finances of economies of scale, surplus manufacture capability, and surplus inventory. All of which is intended to hold down costs for cadets, not adults.
Patience, my friends: all good things come to those who wait.
In the meantime, let's ride the wave of Woodland gear being phased out: The pricetags on surplus WC ECWCS are going down.
Quote from: O-Rex on April 08, 2008, 01:54:07 PM
Quote from: DNall on April 08, 2008, 04:55:48 AM
Quote from: DC on April 07, 2008, 11:17:10 PM
Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on April 07, 2008, 06:21:56 PM
Quote from: CASH172 on April 07, 2008, 04:44:56 AM
Even if we don't get ABUs,
We will be getting the ABU. The Air Force has already stated this. They just haven't told us when. My guess is within 4 years we'll be in the ABU.
When have they said this? The I-heard-from-a-friend-whose-friend's-uncle's-girlfriend-is-an-AF-officer doesn't qualify. When has the Air Force said for certain that CAP would be authorized to wear ABUs?
It was stated by AETC/CC prior to ABUs even being finalized. It is certain that CAP will always be in the same uniforms AF is wearing as long as CAP exists. This too is based on the finances of economies of scale, surplus manufacture capability, and surplus inventory. All of which is intended to hold down costs for cadets, not adults.
Patience, my friends: all good things come to those who wait.
In the meantime, let's ride the wave of Woodland gear being phased out: The pricetags on surplus WC ECWCS are going down.
Which I find interesting considering not a lot of people are trading their BDUs in.
Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on April 08, 2008, 02:01:43 PM
Which I find interesting considering not a lot of people are trading their BDUs in.
My guess is that they're taking them to local surplus stores and selling them there.
Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on April 08, 2008, 02:01:43 PM
Which I find interesting considering not a lot of people are trading their BDUs in.
But they are turning in their CIF gear. That's stuff like gortex & LBVs. That will be stuff we can and should draw from DRMO. There's also a decent supply of boots out there if you keep your eyes open.
Keep in mind that they just didn't halt production of BDU's from one day to the next: facilities were limited, and BDU's and DCU's use the same cutting patterns. At the outset of OIF and OEF, everyone in-theater was wearing DCU's, not to mention that the Marines and Army steadily phased out the BDU's, so production has been on a steady decline. There have been shortages of the more common sizes for a few years now.
As USAF phases out the BDU, sooner than later, you'll see a ripple effect on the market and in the Cadet Uniform Program, but it won't be the windfall that many of us anticipated.
My concern is the pricetags on ABU accessories: $175 for Winter coat: ouch!
Look for the BDU-ABU transition to be much like the Fatigue-BDU transition 20 years ago.
Quote from: O-Rex on April 08, 2008, 03:36:21 PM
As USAF phases out the BDU, sooner than later, you'll see a ripple effect on the market and in the Cadet Uniform Program, but it won't be the windfall that many of us anticipated.
Look for the BDU-ABU transition to be much like the Fatigue-BDU transition 20 years ago.
The change over to the ABU won't effect the Free Cadet Uniform Progrgram one bit. Remember the free uniform they get is the blues.
Part of the problem with this is that most of the BDU's that would normally be available for us in DRMO are being sent to the war zone for the national troops to wear. So other than boots I don't see us getting a big supply of BDU or related gear.
Quote from: RickFranz on April 08, 2008, 03:59:53 PM
Part of the problem with this is that most of the BDU's that would normally be available for us in DRMO are being sent to the war zone for the national troops to wear. So other than boots I don't see us getting a big supply of BDU or related gear.
Do you mean the Iraqi allies? Because I believe everyone in the Warzone is wearing the new style uniform for their branch.
Quote from: O-Rex on April 08, 2008, 03:36:21 PM
My concern is the pricetags on ABU accessories: $175 for Winter coat: ouch!
I'm thinking that's the field jacket, not the winter weight blouse.
Prices are a bit high now, as were BDUs when they first came out. There will be a point where the AF (incl guard/res) are fully into ABUs & manufacture capacity & inventory are built up. When that happens, the price structure will be in line with current BDUs, and that'll be when CAP is initially authorized to start transitioning.
Quote from: RickFranz on April 08, 2008, 03:59:53 PM
Part of the problem with this is that most of the BDU's that would normally be available for us in DRMO are being sent to the war zone for the national troops to wear. So other than boots I don't see us getting a big supply of BDU or related gear.
Actually, uniforms are no longer turned into DRMO at all. Individuals get a yearly clothing allowance, and just scrap the out of service stuff. What goes overseas or to other sources (like CAP) is stuff that's surplus never issued, or collected from quitters at basic training.
The stuff available from DRMO are gear items that remain the property of the government & are issued temporarily to troops. That's field gear, goretex, etc. As people move duty stations & turn that stuff in, if it's getting pretty worn, then it's sent to DRMO.
All I know is that the last time I went to DRMO, I asked about BDU's and the person there said that they where shipping out about 2 truck loads a week to somewhere??? The they said but we have plenty of Boots. I just think that it kinda funny when I watch the news and I see troops we are training over there and they are wearing what looks like BDU's. I have been wrong before and could be wrong again ::) ::)
I thought the Iraqi Army was wearing the chocolate chips we were in GW1...
DRMO recieves uniforms from new airmen that don't make it through basic or tech school. Squadron first Sergent's receive uniforms from new airmen that don't adjust to the Air Force life. In both cases, the airmen that turn these in will be the new ABUs and not BDUs. In fact the DRMO at Ellsworth hasn't had BDUs for sometime. I had an agreement with some of the first Sergent's on base to receive the uniforms from discharged airmen, and it only worked out twice in a year's time.
So if CAP is going to be counting on DRMO to receive uniforms, then the ABU will be available much sooner than we all think.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on April 08, 2008, 09:54:49 PM
I thought the Iraqi Army was wearing the chocolate chips we were in GW1...
I'm not sure what the national uniform is, but I've seen pics of all sorts of different combos.
(http://happycarpenter.blogs.com/the_happy_carpenter/IRAQ_Marines.jpg)
(http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2008-03-31-WeaponstoMahdi.jpg)
Quote from: DNall on April 08, 2008, 07:39:55 PM
Quote from: O-Rex on April 08, 2008, 03:36:21 PM
My concern is the pricetags on ABU accessories: $175 for Winter coat: ouch!
I'm thinking that's the field jacket, not the winter weight blouse.
Prices are a bit high now, as were BDUs when they first came out. There will be a point where the AF (incl guard/res) are fully into ABUs & manufacture capacity & inventory are built up. When that happens, the price structure will be in line with current BDUs, and that'll be when CAP is initially authorized to start transitioning.
1. $175 is the USAF APECS Parka (Gen II ABU Gore-tex parka).
2. BDU was inexpensive because it was produced for all the branches of the US military, including the Coast Guard. That's many, many times more units than the USAF needs by itself. The BDU was also cheaper to produce because it used less expensive fabrics and patterns (no internal pockets and no double cargo pockets).
3. The ABU price doesn't need to be in line with the BDU because it's already accounted for in the budget. All Airmen now receive a higher uniform allotment to purchase the ABU.
Back in January I started a thread called The ABU is expensive (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=4054.0). I don't think it will ever get down in price to where the BDU was, especially with the boots. I could be wrong.
There was also my report on the ABU (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=4431.0) after wearing it for a while. I still say this today, the ABU is very comfortable because you actually get the size you wear, not something like Medium/Long which allows for about 2 to 3 sizes above or below your physical size. Worst time in my BDU experience of 15 years was when I was between sizes. Large was too big and Medium was too small.
And don't forget my Utility Uniform Proposal (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3896.0). 8)
Quote from: CASH172 on April 09, 2008, 02:27:18 AM
I'm not sure what the national uniform is, but I've seen pics of all sorts of different combos.
(http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/images/nia-uniforms.jpg)
Here's the story on the New Iraqi Army (NIA). (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/nia.htm)
Quote from: Stonewall on April 09, 2008, 12:21:09 PM
Back in January I started a thread called The ABU is expensive (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=4054.0). I don't think it will ever get down in price to where the BDU was, especially with the boots. I could be wrong.
There was also my report on the ABU (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=4431.0) after wearing it for a while. I still say this today, the ABU is very comfortable because you actually get the size you wear, not something like Medium/Long which allows for about 2 to 3 sizes above or below your physical size. Worst time in my BDU experience of 15 years was when I was between sizes. Large was too big and Medium was too small.
And don't forget my Utility Uniform Proposal (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3896.0). 8)
I still think your proposal is the best one I've seen.
GC
Quote from: Gunner C on April 09, 2008, 01:20:51 PMI still think your proposal is the best one I've seen.
Thanks, Hawkeye.
Will give some more feedback on ABU.
It is very light in color, so it dirties a lot quicker, as do the tan and/or green boots. That said, the ABUs are stain resistent and are [darn] good at reppeling coffee. Yep, once again, I had a faulty coffee lid and dribbled coffee down my chin and onto my new ABUs. Not once, but twice. I wiped it off with a wet napkin and when it dried, no evidence of my little accident.
Boots, however, get those bad boys dirty and try to clean them and they just become darker in color. There's probably a better way to clean them but I haven't figured it out yet. Although a "battle uniform", people do get upset when your boots are dirty.
I'm going to the field, as in the
woods field, next month and will let you know how they do.
I still don't like the layout of the ABUs as they're no different than BDUs, but as far as fitting, they're better.
Quote from: afgeo4 on April 09, 2008, 05:49:39 AM
2. BDU was inexpensive because it was produced for all the branches of the US military, including the Coast Guard. That's many, many times more units than the USAF needs by itself. The BDU was also cheaper to produce because it used less expensive fabrics and patterns (no internal pockets and no double cargo pockets).
3. The ABU price doesn't need to be in line with the BDU because it's already accounted for in the budget. All Airmen now receive a higher uniform allotment to purchase the ABU.
There's only so much discount you can get on items thru bulk production. At some point there is a unit cost based on materials, labor, etc that they can't/won't go below. We're pretty much there with BDUs.
The AF logic (which doesn't mean it's right) is that the AF is a large enough demand pool that
eventually ABU prices will be roughly in line with BDU prices. Obviously that is not going to be the case during roll out, which is why the allotment is temporarily increased.
I tend to agree with that logic, though I can't say how long it'll take to get there. That'll be about the point CAP is authorized to wear it though. However, I don't think boots will ever get to that point, and that's very unfortunate.
Quote from: Stonewall on April 09, 2008, 02:03:12 PM
Quote from: Gunner C on April 09, 2008, 01:20:51 PMI still think your proposal is the best one I've seen.
Thanks, Hawkeye.
Will give some more feedback on ABU.
It is very light in color, so it dirties a lot quicker, as do the tan and/or green boots. That said, the ABUs are stain resistent and are [darn] good at reppeling coffee. Yep, once again, I had a faulty coffee lid and dribbled coffee down my chin and onto my new ABUs. Not once, but twice. I wiped it off with a wet napkin and when it dried, no evidence of my little accident.
Boots, however, get those bad boys dirty and try to clean them and they just become darker in color. There's probably a better way to clean them but I haven't figured it out yet. Although a "battle uniform", people do get upset when your boots are dirty.
I'm going to the field, as in the woods field, next month and will let you know how they do.
I still don't like the layout of the ABUs as they're no different than BDUs, but as far as fitting, they're better.
Hey KB-
Maybe you can explain something that has been puzzling me. Why did the AF design what is obviously meant to be yet another attempt at an urban camouflage, give it a pattern which was meant originally to blend in with SE Asian vegetation and then come up with a "foliage green" boot?
Quote from: SARMedTech on April 09, 2008, 11:54:49 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on April 09, 2008, 02:03:12 PM
Quote from: Gunner C on April 09, 2008, 01:20:51 PMI still think your proposal is the best one I've seen.
Thanks, Hawkeye.
Will give some more feedback on ABU.
It is very light in color, so it dirties a lot quicker, as do the tan and/or green boots. That said, the ABUs are stain resistent and are [darn] good at reppeling coffee. Yep, once again, I had a faulty coffee lid and dribbled coffee down my chin and onto my new ABUs. Not once, but twice. I wiped it off with a wet napkin and when it dried, no evidence of my little accident.
Boots, however, get those bad boys dirty and try to clean them and they just become darker in color. There's probably a better way to clean them but I haven't figured it out yet. Although a "battle uniform", people do get upset when your boots are dirty.
I'm going to the field, as in the woods field, next month and will let you know how they do.
I still don't like the layout of the ABUs as they're no different than BDUs, but as far as fitting, they're better.
Hey KB-
Maybe you can explain something that has been puzzling me. Why did the AF design what is obviously meant to be yet another attempt at an urban camouflage, give it a pattern which was meant originally to blend in with SE Asian vegetation and then come up with a "foliage green" boot?
I don't really see much 'Urban Camouflage' in that pattern. I see an attempt to cover all enviroments with one uniformed shade of gray. Nore do I see a lot of the orginally tiger stripes in it.
Quote2. BDU was inexpensive because it was produced for all the branches of the US military, including the Coast Guard.
When has the Coast Guard worn the BDU? I wouldn't be surprised if maybe it has happened, but there wouldn't have been enough Coasties in them to help in terms of economy of scale.
Quote from: RiverAux on April 10, 2008, 12:12:42 AM
Quote2. BDU was inexpensive because it was produced for all the branches of the US military, including the Coast Guard.
When has the Coast Guard worn the BDU? I wouldn't be surprised if maybe it has happened, but there wouldn't have been enough Coasties in them to help in terms of economy of scale.
Well, seeing that the USCG only makes up about 3% of the total US military, they wouldn't make a dent either way. However, I've seen Coasties in BDUs around these parts, but not enough to talk about.
Quote from: Stonewall on April 10, 2008, 12:30:44 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on April 10, 2008, 12:12:42 AM
Quote2. BDU was inexpensive because it was produced for all the branches of the US military, including the Coast Guard.
When has the Coast Guard worn the BDU? I wouldn't be surprised if maybe it has happened, but there wouldn't have been enough Coasties in them to help in terms of economy of scale.
Well, seeing that the USCG only makes up about 3% of the total US military, they wouldn't make a dent either way. However, I've seen Coasties in BDUs around these parts, but not enough to talk about.
I don't know if they still are, but a little over a year ago, USCG Port Security Specialists (a reservist-only billet) were wearing woodland BDUs in some locations. Also, the new "untucked" ODU's are really nothing more than BBDU's which were intended to both bring the CG more in line with the appearance of the other services and maintain the distinctive blue utility uniform of the USCG.
Quote from: SARMedTech on April 09, 2008, 11:54:49 PM
Hey KB-
Maybe you can explain something that has been puzzling me. Why did the AF design what is obviously meant to be yet another attempt at an urban camouflage, give it a pattern which was meant originally to blend in with SE Asian vegetation and then come up with a "foliage green" boot?
I have no idea what the rationale was, but obviously they wanted the same color scheme as the Army but not the same pattern. If you ask me, the pattern doesn't really matter too much, as long as they aren't straight lines. But the color scheme, I'm still not convinced there is such thing as a camouflage for all enviornments.
IMHO, the Marine Corps has it right with 2 color schemes, desert and woodland.
^ second. And an expeditionary force with multiple different calibers of ammunition is an exorbitantly expensive logistics nightmare. So how is this a good idea? unfortunately they don't listen to logic on these things.
Quote from: SARMedTech on April 10, 2008, 12:45:34 AM
Quote from: Stonewall on April 10, 2008, 12:30:44 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on April 10, 2008, 12:12:42 AM
Quote2. BDU was inexpensive because it was produced for all the branches of the US military, including the Coast Guard.
When has the Coast Guard worn the BDU? I wouldn't be surprised if maybe it has happened, but there wouldn't have been enough Coasties in them to help in terms of economy of scale.
Well, seeing that the USCG only makes up about 3% of the total US military, they wouldn't make a dent either way. However, I've seen Coasties in BDUs around these parts, but not enough to talk about.
I don't know if they still are, but a little over a year ago, USCG Port Security Specialists (a reservist-only billet) were wearing woodland BDUs in some locations. Also, the new "untucked" ODU's are really nothing more than BBDU's which were intended to both bring the CG more in line with the appearance of the other services and maintain the distinctive blue utility uniform of the USCG.
A few hundred reservists...
Quote from: RiverAux on April 10, 2008, 02:23:20 AM
Quote from: SARMedTech on April 10, 2008, 12:45:34 AM
Quote from: Stonewall on April 10, 2008, 12:30:44 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on April 10, 2008, 12:12:42 AM
Quote2. BDU was inexpensive because it was produced for all the branches of the US military, including the Coast Guard.
When has the Coast Guard worn the BDU? I wouldn't be surprised if maybe it has happened, but there wouldn't have been enough Coasties in them to help in terms of economy of scale.
Well, seeing that the USCG only makes up about 3% of the total US military, they wouldn't make a dent either way. However, I've seen Coasties in BDUs around these parts, but not enough to talk about.
I don't know if they still are, but a little over a year ago, USCG Port Security Specialists (a reservist-only billet) were wearing woodland BDUs in some locations. Also, the new "untucked" ODU's are really nothing more than BBDU's which were intended to both bring the CG more in line with the appearance of the other services and maintain the distinctive blue utility uniform of the USCG.
A few hundred reservists...
I also seem to recall seeing photos of a crew on a 110' WPB wearing DCUs on an MSO deployment in the Gulf.
Quote from: Slim on April 10, 2008, 05:07:32 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on April 10, 2008, 02:23:20 AM
Quote from: SARMedTech on April 10, 2008, 12:45:34 AM
Quote from: Stonewall on April 10, 2008, 12:30:44 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on April 10, 2008, 12:12:42 AM
Quote2. BDU was inexpensive because it was produced for all the branches of the US military, including the Coast Guard.
When has the Coast Guard worn the BDU? I wouldn't be surprised if maybe it has happened, but there wouldn't have been enough Coasties in them to help in terms of economy of scale.
Well, seeing that the USCG only makes up about 3% of the total US military, they wouldn't make a dent either way. However, I've seen Coasties in BDUs around these parts, but not enough to talk about.
I don't know if they still are, but a little over a year ago, USCG Port Security Specialists (a reservist-only billet) were wearing woodland BDUs in some locations. Also, the new "untucked" ODU's are really nothing more than BBDU's which were intended to both bring the CG more in line with the appearance of the other services and maintain the distinctive blue utility uniform of the USCG.
A few hundred reservists...
I also seem to recall seeing photos of a crew on a 110' WPB wearing DCUs on an MSO deployment in the Gulf.
And a recent google search I did turned up a photo of Adm. Thad Allen (Commandant of the USCG) wearing tri-colors.
Civil Air Patrol should not have CAMO BDUs of any type.
We do not need to be invisible to Aircraft.
Blue BDUs make us look like a Cleaner in an office Building, or a SWAT Team member.
My vote is for Solid Tan or Kahki, BDUs that are already available in good supply by any supplier of BDUs.
Opens up the Swede Jungle or Desert Boots.
Also, Black Boots could be worn.
Subdued Name Tapes and badges could be used, if nothing else looks nicer than the blue tapes.
Then it becomes an exclusive CAP Uniform, but recognizable as a Uniform of a Service. Not a Blue Collar service worker or Swat Team member.
Tan is more visible in most areas that are Green, except parts of Nevada and Desert SW.
But 90% of the country is GREEN.
For those in the Desert, wear a orange vest for Ground Team Search.
Spacing - MIKE
We should not wear camo because it makes it hard to see....so we should not wear green, tan, khaki, or any other "blending" color.
We should not wear anything that makes us look like SWAT teams....so out go ODs, Woodland, DCUs, Black, Blue, Tan, Khaki and a whole lot of other colors.
We should not look like an office building cleaner....out goes orange, yellow, white, blue, tan, khaki, blue jeans, polo shirts, hospital scrubs, and some really awful general purpose "cleaning lady smocks" I've seen around!
I don't know...I'm kind of stupid....but I can't think of any color that has not already been claimed by someone you don't think we should look like.
I want to look like the service we support....so let's go with ABU's and orange vest for aircraft visibility.
Yeah, if you want to play the high visibility thing then lets go with totally blaze orange. But then one runs the risk of looking like a prison inmate.
Quote from: lordmonar on April 11, 2008, 12:06:10 AM
We should not wear camo because it makes it hard to see....so we should not wear green, tan, khaki, or any other "blending" color.
We should not wear anything that makes us look like SWAT teams....so out go ODs, Woodland, DCUs, Black, Blue, Tan, Khaki and a whole lot of other colors.
We should not look like an office building cleaner....out goes orange, yellow, white, blue, tan, khaki, blue jeans, polo shirts, hospital scrubs, and some really awful general purpose "cleaning lady smocks" I've seen around!
I don't know...I'm kind of stupid....but I can't think of any color that has not already been claimed by someone you don't think we should look like.
I want to look like the service we support....so let's go with ABU's and orange vest for aircraft visibility.
For others: Lordmonar and I never agree on anything.
Lordmonar, If you had a choice between Tan and Green, which would be more visible with a Green landscape, to an aircraft crew?
ABUs make no sense for CAP, let's quit with the Air Force goofy uniform changes, the Air Force lost me on the Burgandy, Gray Epaulets, and the Airline Pilot Uniform.
I don't like the Air Forces Fashion choices of late, and CAP needs help in that area too.
I am interested in what others think, TAN or Blue or ABU, which uniform?
Lets have a CAP Uniform and quit following the bad choices of another service.
By the way, I like the Air Force and I am an Air Force Vet.
Someday CAP Cadets will OWN the Air Force!
Spacing - MIKE
I have the blue now and I kinda let it. It is different than anything around here and the only Law Enforcement that wears them in KS is the DOT. There is more of us then them (DOT) so it might look like they are coping us. :D :D :D
Really I do think it would look better for all the Seniors to be in a corp. uniform. Most of the sizes of AF uniforms we get are for the young and very, very trim. I think if we all went to the corp. uniform that might get some of the folks that don't look quite right in a AF uniform, out of that uniform.
This is just my opinion.
Earhart,
The point is....no one person's opinion counts here.
For what ever reason you can come up with "this uniform is the best" someone will come up with an equally valid reason why we should not wear such uniforms.
But...tacky fashion sense or not....the USAF is wearing ABUs. CAP can do nothing and keep what we got, change to match the USAF or go a third direction.
Let's vote!
Quote from: DC on April 11, 2008, 02:28:00 AM
Yeah, if you want to play the high visibility thing then lets go with totally blaze orange. But then one runs the risk of looking like a prison inmate.
Or in CA, a CalTrans worker.
Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 10, 2008, 08:02:09 PM
Civil Air Patrol should not have CAMO BDUs of any type.
We do not need to be invisible to Aircraft...............
CAP is not an independent agency. It does not & cannot exist in any form separate from the Air Force at any time now or in the future, period.
The AF wants CAP in AF-style uniforms for several reasons, the most practical of these being economies of scale in the supply chain (and potential surplus) keep down costs, especially but exclusively for cadets. That's not nearly the only reason, but it is the most stated & practical one.
This is the policy of the land from both CAP & AF, and it will not change:
Quote from: lordmonar on April 11, 2008, 12:06:10 AM
I want to look like the service we support....so let's go with ABU's and orange vest for aircraft visibility.
This thread is not talking about alternate uniforms or we should be in this or that. The premise stipulates that we will be in ABUs at some point soon but unknown. It's not concerned so much with when that date might be, as much as the nature of the uniform we're getting, not the CAP aspects, just the uniform underneath. Anything outside those bounds is covered extensively in many other threads (ie beating dead horse).
And we don't freakin vote in the military, nor paramilitary organizations.
Quote from: lordmonar on April 11, 2008, 04:18:54 AM
Let's vote!
Lots of people did, here. (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3896.0).
Although I didn't include a Tan/Khaki uniform, it did have other options. To me, tan/khaki makes zero reference to the military at all. This isn't to say I don't care for a khaki uniform, just not for CAP.
Tan can look really good, but it does not keep with the military style uniform. And to be honest, what kind of North American woodland is the ABU going to blend in to?
Quote from: DC on April 11, 2008, 02:58:24 PM
And to be honest, what kind of North American woodland is the ABU going to blend in to?
Well, you be the judge. There are too many pictures to post, but here is a side-by-side comparison of BDUs vs ACUs (ABU is same color scheme, just different pattern).
BDU vs ACU (http://www.bduvs.com/bdu_vs_acu/index.album/bdu-vs-acu?i=0) <<<---- That's a link, click it.
Here is an AF general standing among Army generals. ABUs are virtually identical in color to the ACU.
(http://captalk.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3859.0;attach=1823)
Real quick though:
BDU standing at 50m(http://www.bduvs.com/bdu_vs_acu/thumbnails/600x450/Camo_Test_and_Others_066.jpg)
ACU standing at 50m(http://www.bduvs.com/bdu_vs_acu/thumbnails/600x450/Camo_Test_and_Others_068.jpg)
They are both clearly visible... And they contrast the dry brush on the ground...
There, tan wouldn't be a good color, it would blend right in with the dry grass.
I think that the ACU and ABU colors were designed to suit our current conflicts, so they gravitate toward urban and desert and don't seem to do a lot of good in the woods...
Here, a soldier wearing ACUs with a BDU pattern vest on.
(http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/images/acu-pic02.jpg)
We got orange vests for visibility, that's what they're there for. Wearing ABUs or BDUs isn't about ES.
Quote from: Stonewall on April 11, 2008, 03:19:21 PM
Quote from: DC on April 11, 2008, 02:58:24 PM
And to be honest, what kind of North American woodland is the ABU going to blend in to?
Well, you be the judge. There are too many pictures to post, but here is a side-by-side comparison of BDUs vs ACUs (ABU is same color scheme, just different pattern).
BDU vs ACU (http://www.bduvs.com/bdu_vs_acu/index.album/bdu-vs-acu?i=0) <<<---- That's a link, click it.
Here is an AF general standing among Army generals. ABUs are virtually identical in color to the ACU.
(http://captalk.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3859.0;attach=1823)
Well looking at the pictures in the link, I think the Army and Air Force should have followed the Marine Corps and created a woodland digital and a desert digital. I also don't like the grade insignia placement on the ABU, maybe it's just because the general's stars almost wrap all the way around his collar, but the ACU looks better with the grade on the chest. I also like the velcro patches and layout of the ACU better.
Quote from: 2d Lt Rudin on April 12, 2008, 02:22:46 PMWell looking at the pictures in the link, I think the Army and Air Force should have followed the Marine Corps and created a woodland digital and a desert digital. I also don't like the grade insignia placement on the ABU, maybe it's just because the general's stars almost wrap all the way around his collar, but the ACU looks better with the grade on the chest. I also like the velcro patches and layout of the ACU better.
I have always said the USMC had it right, with two field uniforms. And I've always said, since the ABUs came out, that they're nothing more than a set of BDUs with a different design. I would much rather have ACUs or a variation, in the Air Force, but of course, I'm not in charge. The rank, insignia and badges are worn in the exact same fashion on the ABUs as they were on BDUs. Those stars wrapped around the collar in BDUs as well.
If we are going to speculate what the services "should have" done....then we might as well say the Marines should have stuck with BDU's in the first place and then this would not be an issue at all.
Quote from: lordmonar on April 13, 2008, 01:51:19 AM
If we are going to speculate what the services "should have" done....then we might as well say the Marines should have stuck with BDU's in the first place and then this would not be an issue at all.
ODs all the way, baby! :P :D
Quote from: lordmonar on April 13, 2008, 01:51:19 AM
If we are going to speculate what the services "should have" done....then we might as well say the Marines should have stuck with BDU's in the first place and then this would not be an issue at all.
Let's face it, the MARPAT uniforms are ultimately a huge improvement over BDUs. The utility, concealment, and ease of wear on those is off the charts!
I just wish this was a DoD wide development, not USMC specific.
Quote from: shorning on April 13, 2008, 01:52:39 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on April 13, 2008, 01:51:19 AM
If we are going to speculate what the services "should have" done....then we might as well say the Marines should have stuck with BDU's in the first place and then this would not be an issue at all.
ODs all the way, baby! :P :D
The nice 100% cotton ones you could starch the hell out of! ;D :clap:
But I did not want to roll the WAYBACK maching quite that far. :D
Quote from: afgeo4 on April 13, 2008, 06:48:04 AMLet's face it, the MARPAT uniforms are ultimately a huge improvement over BDUs. The utility, concealment, and ease of wear on those is off the charts!
I just wish this was a DoD wide development, not USMC specific.
But was it "needed"?
There was nothing "wrong" with the BDU's...the Marines just wanted to look different and then ran with it.
Quote from: Stonewall on April 11, 2008, 03:19:21 PM
Quote from: DC on April 11, 2008, 02:58:24 PM
And to be honest, what kind of North American woodland is the ABU going to blend in to?
Well, you be the judge. There are too many pictures to post, but here is a side-by-side comparison of BDUs vs ACUs (ABU is same color scheme, just different pattern).
BDU vs ACU (http://www.bduvs.com/bdu_vs_acu/index.album/bdu-vs-acu?i=0) <<<---- That's a link, click it.
Here is an AF general standing among Army generals. ABUs are virtually identical in color to the ACU.
(http://captalk.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3859.0;attach=1823)
Real quick though:
BDU standing at 50m
(http://www.bduvs.com/bdu_vs_acu/thumbnails/600x450/Camo_Test_and_Others_066.jpg)
ACU standing at 50m
(http://www.bduvs.com/bdu_vs_acu/thumbnails/600x450/Camo_Test_and_Others_068.jpg)
Outstanding Post!
And while I think TAN would work (and give an impression of fadded Iraq Desert BDUs of Old) and be visible, from the Air. So What.
I surrender to the CAMO ABUs provided we go with the CAP NAME TAPEs of the same Color and quality of Air Force subdued patches and such, and NOT SCREW IT UP with CAP BLUE TAPEs. Lets just be sharp and meet the weight standards!
Computer Tech Embrodery (its now state of the art) will help us convert to Subdued Wing Patches.
And I will find a sponsor to pay for our Unit Conversion of 60 Cadets and Seniors.
I surrender to ABUs, we just have to wear Orange Vests in the field.
Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 13, 2008, 07:22:42 AM
Quote from: Stonewall on April 11, 2008, 03:19:21 PM
Quote from: DC on April 11, 2008, 02:58:24 PM
And to be honest, what kind of North American woodland is the ABU going to blend in to?
Well, you be the judge. There are too many pictures to post, but here is a side-by-side comparison of BDUs vs ACUs (ABU is same color scheme, just different pattern).
BDU vs ACU (http://www.bduvs.com/bdu_vs_acu/index.album/bdu-vs-acu?i=0) <<<---- That's a link, click it.
Here is an AF general standing among Army generals. ABUs are virtually identical in color to the ACU.
(http://captalk.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3859.0;attach=1823)
Real quick though:
BDU standing at 50m
(http://www.bduvs.com/bdu_vs_acu/thumbnails/600x450/Camo_Test_and_Others_066.jpg)
ACU standing at 50m
(http://www.bduvs.com/bdu_vs_acu/thumbnails/600x450/Camo_Test_and_Others_068.jpg)
Outstanding Post!
And while I think TAN would work (and give an impression of fadded Iraq Desert BDUs of Old) and be visible, from the Air. So What.
I surrender to the CAMO ABUs provided we go with the CAP NAME TAPEs of the same Color and quality of Air Force subdued patches and such, and NOT SCREW IT UP with CAP BLUE TAPEs. Lets just be sharp and meet the weight standards!
Computer Tech Embrodery (its now state of the art) will help us convert to Subdued Wing Patches.
And I will find a sponsor to pay for our Unit Conversion of 60 Cadets and Seniors.
I surrender to ABUs, we just have to wear Orange Vests in the field.
Again, no point in subdued patches. In fact, the very reason they are worn by AD/AF is the reason that we should not wear them. They are trying to avoid being seen, we perform missions which demand/require that we remain visible. Im not sure why so many people are in favor of subdued patches (other than the fact that I readily admit they look cool). They have a reason for wearing them and we do not.
Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 13, 2008, 07:22:42 AM
Outstanding Post!
And while I think TAN would work (and give an impression of fadded Iraq Desert BDUs of Old) and be visible, from the Air. So What.
I surrender to the CAMO ABUs provided we go with the CAP NAME TAPEs of the same Color and quality of Air Force subdued patches and such, and NOT SCREW IT UP with CAP BLUE TAPEs. Lets just be sharp and meet the weight standards!
Computer Tech Embrodery (its now state of the art) will help us convert to Subdued Wing Patches.
And I will find a sponsor to pay for our Unit Conversion of 60 Cadets and Seniors.
I surrender to ABUs, we just have to wear Orange Vests in the field.
Wow, you put "Not screw it up" is all caps, you must be really serious.
I really fail to see how you can believe we can accomplish any of out missions better with subuded patches.
Quote from: lordmonar on April 13, 2008, 07:06:02 AM
Quote from: afgeo4 on April 13, 2008, 06:48:04 AMLet's face it, the MARPAT uniforms are ultimately a huge improvement over BDUs. The utility, concealment, and ease of wear on those is off the charts!
I just wish this was a DoD wide development, not USMC specific.
But was it "needed"?
There was nothing "wrong" with the BDU's...the Marines just wanted to look different and then ran with it.
The camo pattern on BDUs is a modified version of the ERDL pattern which was created in the late 40's and first issued in Vietnam. The digital patterns are much more effective at breaking up the body and generally blending in. Also, a good chunk of the world has gone, or is going to digital patterns, including the Chinese...
Though, if we really want the 'dream uniform for all the services to adopt it's Multicam... That stuff rocks! http://www.multicampattern.com/ (http://www.multicampattern.com/)
Quote from: JThemann on April 13, 2008, 01:18:13 PM
Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 13, 2008, 07:22:42 AM
Outstanding Post!
And while I think TAN would work (and give an impression of fadded Iraq Desert BDUs of Old) and be visible, from the Air. So What.
I surrender to the CAMO ABUs provided we go with the CAP NAME TAPEs of the same Color and quality of Air Force subdued patches and such, and NOT SCREW IT UP with CAP BLUE TAPEs. Lets just be sharp and meet the weight standards!
Computer Tech Embrodery (its now state of the art) will help us convert to Subdued Wing Patches.
And I will find a sponsor to pay for our Unit Conversion of 60 Cadets and Seniors.
I surrender to ABUs, we just have to wear Orange Vests in the field.
Wow, you put "Not screw it up" is all caps, you must be really serious.
I really fail to see how you can believe we can accomplish any of out missions better with subuded patches.
Its all asthetics. The subdued patches look better, and the Ultramarine tapes really are a throwback, but I've never cared really.. As far as impact on missions I wish people would get over the whole camouflage thing, if you are participating in a mission you should be wearing a big, bright orange vest. I would like to note that said vest will cover all of said patches, making the whole subdued/full-color visibility thing moot.
Quote from: DC on April 13, 2008, 01:27:42 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on April 13, 2008, 07:06:02 AM
Quote from: afgeo4 on April 13, 2008, 06:48:04 AMLet's face it, the MARPAT uniforms are ultimately a huge improvement over BDUs. The utility, concealment, and ease of wear on those is off the charts!
I just wish this was a DoD wide development, not USMC specific.
But was it "needed"?
There was nothing "wrong" with the BDU's...the Marines just wanted to look different and then ran with it.
The camo pattern on BDUs is a modified version of the ERDL pattern which was created in the late 40's and first issued in Vietnam. The digital patterns are much more effective at breaking up the body and generally blending in. Also, a good chunk of the world has gone, or is going to digital patterns, including the Chinese...
Though, if we really want the 'dream uniform for all the services to adopt it's Multicam... That stuff rocks! http://www.multicampattern.com/ (http://www.multicampattern.com/)Quote from: JThemann on April 13, 2008, 01:18:13 PM
Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 13, 2008, 07:22:42 AM
Outstanding Post!
And while I think TAN would work (and give an impression of fadded Iraq Desert BDUs of Old) and be visible, from the Air. So What.
I surrender to the CAMO ABUs provided we go with the CAP NAME TAPEs of the same Color and quality of Air Force subdued patches and such, and NOT SCREW IT UP with CAP BLUE TAPEs. Lets just be sharp and meet the weight standards!
Computer Tech Embrodery (its now state of the art) will help us convert to Subdued Wing Patches.
And I will find a sponsor to pay for our Unit Conversion of 60 Cadets and Seniors.
I surrender to ABUs, we just have to wear Orange Vests in the field.
Wow, you put "Not screw it up" is all caps, you must be really serious.
I really fail to see how you can believe we can accomplish any of out missions better with subuded patches.
Its all asthetics. The subdued patches look better, and the Ultramarine tapes really are a throwback, but I've never cared really.. As far as impact on missions I wish people would get over the whole camouflage thing, if you are participating in a mission you should be wearing a big, bright orange vest. I would like to note that said vest will cover all of said patches, making the whole subdued/full-color visibility thing moot.
So want fifty thousand plus members to replace all of the stuff on their uniforms to meet your sense of asthetics..........?
Quote from: JThemann on April 13, 2008, 01:18:13 PM
Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 13, 2008, 07:22:42 AM
Outstanding Post!
And while I think TAN would work (and give an impression of fadded Iraq Desert BDUs of Old) and be visible, from the Air. So What.
I surrender to the CAMO ABUs provided we go with the CAP NAME TAPEs of the same Color and quality of Air Force subdued patches and such, and NOT SCREW IT UP with CAP BLUE TAPEs. Lets just be sharp and meet the weight standards!
Computer Tech Embrodery (its now state of the art) will help us convert to Subdued Wing Patches.
And I will find a sponsor to pay for our Unit Conversion of 60 Cadets and Seniors.
I surrender to ABUs, we just have to wear Orange Vests in the field.
Wow, you put "Not screw it up" is all caps, you must be really serious.
I really fail to see how you can believe we can accomplish any of out missions better with subuded patches.
Blue Name Tapes, is a 60s and 70s style.
Blue tapes look norrible, on the Woodlands CAMO.
Please don't tell me National is going to do Blue Tapes on ABUs'
CAP Fashions I also hate the are Gray Eps and Blue Tapes and Blue Cloth Rank insignia.
Now, I can grudgingly accept, the Luftwaffe Eps. CAP Auxillary of American Luftwaffe! LOL
Woodlands Camo came out in 1979, I know, I was a Security Police Auggie Dawgie at Hahn Air Base Germany. Yeah, imagine that I was actually in the Air Force!
Sudued is to match the Air Force's Fashion Statement.
I surrender, I surrender.
NEXT ISSUE!
QuoteSo want fifty thousand plus members to replace all of the stuff on their uniforms to meet your sense of asthetics..........?
No, I want CAP to get a Uniform that looks good, and doesn't match a combination of 60s, and 70s Hodge podge made up uniform Combinations.
And then we keep the Uniform the same for the next 20 Years.
And National CAP can buy the first set for everybody, once they understand how we are underfunded to the point of Ridiculousness.
$750,000 Paid out by National HQ for the Conversion.
Or we do it this, no more Free Blues for Cadets instead free ABU set with boots.
Free ABUs and Boots $150 is the Budget per Cadet estimated.
So National would have to ask for 1 Million from the Congress for the Conversion.
Would that be Fair? To ask Congress for more money?.
Mission List for CAP on 40 Million Dollars a year.
Cadet Programs
Pre School Program
Elementary School Program
Aerospace Education to the Public Program
Volunteers for Air Force Bases, Polo Shirt Team, Program
Home Land Security
Border Watch
Search and Rescue
Middle Schools Program
Wreaths across America Mission
Disaster Relief Missions
County Sundown Patrols
International Air Cadet Exchange
Airborne Damage Assessment Missions
Did I miss any Missions?
AFJROTC funding 200 Million
Only Mission Cadet Programs ??? Mission
Tags - MIKE
Not this discussion again!