Surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet.
Quote
Wear of the Airman's Battle Uniform (ABU): DoD policy prevents the transfer, donation, and sale of digitized camouflage pattern uniforms to anyone outside the USAF with very few exceptions. Unfortunately Civil Air Patrol is not one of the exceptions. This prohibition is necessary to protect the unique technologies used in developing the uniform.
The National Board has placed a hold on all uniform changes pending a review of the entire CAP uniform structure. This review is ongoing by the CAP National Uniform Committee and a draft report will be presented to the Summer National Board Meeting in Baltimore in August 2012. The presentation will be available online via web stream but all CAP members are encouraged to attend.
Quote from: Tim Medeiros on December 28, 2011, 10:52:26 PM
Surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet.
Quote
Wear of the Airman's Battle Uniform (ABU): DoD policy prevents the transfer, donation, and sale of digitized camouflage pattern uniforms to anyone outside the USAF with very few exceptions. Unfortunately Civil Air Patrol is not one of the exceptions. This prohibition is necessary to protect the unique technologies used in developing the uniform.
The National Board has placed a hold on all uniform changes pending a review of the entire CAP uniform structure. This review is ongoing by the CAP National Uniform Committee and a draft report will be presented to the Summer National Board Meeting in Baltimore in August 2012. The presentation will be available online via web stream but all CAP members are encouraged to attend.
I wonder how my local surplus store gets them? :(
Do they have the "Made expressly for U.S. Air Force" tag? If so, something's certainly fishy.
Quote from: Tim Medeiros on December 28, 2011, 10:57:20 PM
Do they have the "Made expressly for U.S. Air Force" tag? If so, something's certainly fishy.
Yep...100% GI Issue.
You can order the stupid things right from Proper who is the manufacter!
You know I don't mind being told to hold my horses and wait.....but I get pissed off when they feed me a line of fecal matter.
Quote
Wear of the Airman's Battle Uniform (ABU): DoD policy prevents the transfer, donation, and sale of digitized camouflage pattern uniforms to anyone outside the USAF with very few exceptions. Unfortunately Civil Air Patrol is not one of the exceptions. This prohibition is necessary to protect the unique technologies used in developing the uniform.
The National Board has placed a hold on all uniform changes pending a review of the entire CAP uniform structure. This review is ongoing by the CAP National Uniform Committee and a draft report will be presented to the Summer National Board Meeting in Baltimore in August 2012. The presentation will be available online via web stream but all CAP members are encouraged to attend.
[/quote]
DoD Restricts Digitized camouflage to uniforms to anyone outside the USAF?!? Hate to break the news to the other services. >:D
Well, we knew the uniform review was ongoing. However, I'm surprised that they mentioned ABUs since there is currently no reason that CAP members should get them. The restriction on their release is just as bogus as that which they had for BDUs for a while.
There's plenty available via retail, Google lists over 2000 Shopping hits alone.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 28, 2011, 10:55:00 PM
I wonder how my local surplus store gets them? :(
Probably through former AF members selling them.
I believe that Canadian troops leaving the service have to give their CADPAT digi-cams back...one Canadian military message board did a collective butt-chewing on a former troop who somehow kept his and sold them...a very irate Sergeant-Major said "Those do NOT belong to you! They belong to the QUEEN!"
(http://mpmuseum.org/securuniform/cadpat/cadpat.jpg)
I think they've got some sort of real secret-squirrel anti-IR fabric...could be that the ABU does as well.
This "review" of the "entire CAP uniform structure"...five'll get you ten there's to be zero member input, and I would be very, very, very surprised if anything but extremely minor changes are made to the grey/white.
Then someone at NHQ or USAF needs to expalin this.......
http://www.epropper.com/categoryattribute/52 (http://www.epropper.com/categoryattribute/52)
My guess would be that ABU's are starting to show up in the DRMO channels, and maybe some members have already tried
to request them, etc.
So Joe Hunter who wants them to go shoot Bambi's evil twin can get them, and ROTC can, but not the Auxiliary of the Air Force...
I bet this announcement was in response to questions like "When do we get to wear the ABU?" asked on the new Ask the National Commander box in eServices.
Quote from: CyBorg on December 28, 2011, 11:03:40 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 28, 2011, 10:55:00 PM
I wonder how my local surplus store gets them? :(
Probably through former AF members selling them.
Nope....Brand new tags and all.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 28, 2011, 11:05:07 PM
My guess would be that ABU's are starting to show up in the DRMO channels, and maybe some members have already tried
to request them, etc.
That sounds a little more like it. AF issued ABU's are probably still in Demand, even though Airman can still purchase on their own. There are probably still Commands still requesting issues for troops. The Air Force isn't going to start giving them away when they are still serviceable.
My unit meets on an ANG installation.
In the past year I've seen nothing but ABU's...no BDU's, and no word on whatever is supposed to replace the ABU.
Once we get ABU's I'm certain many will wonder why we wanted them so badly. I wear them in ROTC and they're OK. Not great, just OK. Some days I actually miss the BDU's because you used to be able to put some effort into your uniform and it showed. Most days I'm busy so I don't care.
Right off the bat I'm sure there will be many complaining that Cadets and seniors are spending even less time looking after their uniforms. I see it in ROTC, its wash and wear so folks end up paying attention to it less. As long as you have all the pieces on, then they consider that close enough.
And just think about the situation were going to end up in when there are a few early adopter cadets in every unit who don't have to worry about getting gigged on pressing their uniform or shining their shoes. Meanwhile everybody in BDU still has to meet the old standards.
I'm not saying that we shouldn't get them. Just that they are going to be a hassle.
And the problem with that is????????
The work uniform should be just that...a work uniform. Spend your time studying and doing your job.
As Gunny Highway said......well let's keep it simple...you got your boot? We'll be walking into combat.
I honestly could care less about getting ABU's.
I'm much more in favour of getting BDU's recognised as "CAP-distinctive."
Quote from: CyBorg on December 28, 2011, 11:03:40 PM
I think they've got some sort of real secret-squirrel anti-IR fabric...could be that the ABU does as well.
I could tell you about the questions on my ROTP aptitude test, but under it's the only actual document I've ever seen that had a warning about the Official Secrets Act on it...so I guess I'd have to kill you then. For Queen and Country that is.
Quote from: Tim Medeiros on December 28, 2011, 10:52:26 PM
Surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet.
Quote
Wear of the Airman's Battle Uniform (ABU): DoD policy prevents the transfer, donation, and sale of digitized camouflage pattern uniforms to anyone outside the USAF with very few exceptions. Unfortunately Civil Air Patrol is not one of the exceptions. This prohibition is necessary to protect the unique technologies used in developing the uniform.
Nice to know the the USAF thinks about the CAP...
..and the local kids buy them, and MARPAT to play paintball. 100% GI issue. Yeah. Whatever.
Quote from: JeffDG on December 28, 2011, 11:43:11 PMI could tell you about the questions on my ROTP aptitude test,
You're a "Rider of the Pines"? Sweeeeet!
Often times these ABU/ACU/MARPAT knock offs look identical to Mil Spec... until you see them through night vision. That is when you notice a huge difference. Its not the camo pattern itself that is sensitive its all the other properties, IR squares, etc.
I recently came back from A-Stan and had to turn in all of my multicam. Multicam is not a sensitive item as its been on the civilian market for years, but because it had IR squares on it away it went.
??
Again IR squars are available on the open market.
The main thing that makes the uniform visible in IR is the type of detergent you use.
Again.....I would be happy with a "No we don't want you to wear them" or a "Please hold, your call is very imporant to us".
When they start pulling a "it's not DoD policy to release these uniforms to the general public"......contrary to a 30 second internet search and personal experince......I get all bent out of shape.
You can tell me to suck it up....but don't blow sunshine up my FPOC please.....I'm an adult!
Quote from: CyBorg on December 28, 2011, 11:03:40 PM
I believe that Canadian troops leaving the service have to give their CADPAT digi-cams back...one Canadian military message board did a collective butt-chewing on a former troop who somehow kept his and sold them...a very irate Sergeant-Major said "Those do NOT belong to you! They belong to the QUEEN!"
Last year, Kieloch, Stanford & I were running a Warrior Dash, and I was hot on the trail of some Cadpat trousers from which to make us cool shorts. It was a royal female dog to find Cadpat, even knock off.
Quote from: NIN on December 29, 2011, 03:13:04 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on December 28, 2011, 11:03:40 PM
I believe that Canadian troops leaving the service have to give their CADPAT digi-cams back...one Canadian military message board did a collective butt-chewing on a former troop who somehow kept his and sold them...a very irate Sergeant-Major said "Those do NOT belong to you! They belong to the QUEEN!"
Last year, Kieloch, Stanford & I were running a Warrior Dash, and I was hot on the trail of some Cadpat trousers from which to make us cool shorts. It was a royal female dog to find Cadpat, even knock off.
Restricted for everyone but Airsoft Special Forces:
(http://airsoft-club.com/shop/bmz_cache/1/1bf897c9914f72ac6ec682661f08b330.image.480x640.jpg)
http://airsoft-club.com/shop/tactical-gear/clothing-bdu/uniform/canadian-cadpat-digital-camo-woodland-bdu-uniform-set (http://airsoft-club.com/shop/tactical-gear/clothing-bdu/uniform/canadian-cadpat-digital-camo-woodland-bdu-uniform-set)
Quote from: lordmonar on December 29, 2011, 02:28:18 AM
??
Again IR squars are available on the open market.
The main thing that makes the uniform visible in IR is the type of detergent you use.
Again.....I would be happy with a "No we don't want you to wear them" or a "Please hold, your call is very imporant to us".
When they start pulling a "it's not DoD policy to release these uniforms to the general public"......contrary to a 30 second internet search and personal experince......I get all bent out of shape.
You can tell me to suck it up....but don't blow sunshine up my FPOC please.....I'm an adult!
When I got to Afghanistan they made a big deal about no one buying or wearing commercially bought uniforms for two reasons: 1. Our military uniforms were fire resistant 2. IR properties. As a generally skeptical person a few of us tested commercial versus milspec and noticed a slight difference in visibility through night vision and flamability (more likely just because they were thicker) YMMV as always but those are just my observations based on a non-scientific test conducted by bored joes.
Quote from: CyBorg on December 28, 2011, 11:33:51 PM
I honestly could care less about getting ABU's.
I'm much more in favour of getting BDU's recognised as "CAP-distinctive."
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
My sentiments also.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 28, 2011, 10:55:00 PM
I wonder how my local surplus store gets them? :(
Chinese knockoffs.
They are making a big deal of absolutely nothing. I could equip an entire wing with how many multicam uniforms that were used in A-Stan, and that is just from how many I've seen with my own two eyes and on online forums with peope trying to sell their old multicam sets they use in A-Stan. I think they have their heads up their place where the sun don't shine because they clearly don't realize they are in abundance to the public. I've gotten close to buying a few MC uniforms before, and from comparison to my ACU's that I have from JROTC (which are the real deal), they were exactly the same. Same IR tabs, same fabric, and I bet same IR qualities. I wonder why they care so much. Are they afraid CAP is going to deplete their supply? Do they think we are too husky and trying to BS us into thinking something else? I wish we had a straight up answer instead of BS that a 2 year old would laugh at.
Well....for a while DRMO was not allowed to give us BDUs because they were selling them in lot sizes to surplus dealers and they were finding their way to third world countires and into the hands of people who the U.S. did not like very much.
They were shredding the old BDU's for rags.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 29, 2011, 05:22:49 PM
Well....for a while DRMO was not allowed to give us BDUs because they were selling them in lot sizes to surplus dealers and they were finding their way to third world countires and into the hands of people who the U.S. did not like very much.
They were shredding the old BDU's for rags.
Which is stupid because many, many people have BDU's, which is considered to be the most abundant combat uniform ever made. What stops someone who doesn't like from making an eSlay and buying them under an alias and a location of a friends? I'm in no rush to have buy a whole new uniform (which is going to leave a dent in my wallet >:D ), sew on all of the patches, and have to retire my black combat boots to dirty work only, but I would prefer to have the option to. I'd much rather look USAF Auxilary than USCG Port Security Unit (which at the base I go to, the local PSU wears BDU's) if I was going to interact with the public. Also, why can't they ship to CAP? Does CAP supply uniforms to terrorist? It is stupid. If they are worried about it, then make a new regulation requiring felony jail time to be served for doing so.
Looks like we are "Aux Off" again.....
Hopefully this national uniform review will result in a single field uniform for CAP.
We don't need camouflage of any sort; I realize this borders on heresy, but it's the plain fact; we have no reason to conceal our folks, and every reason to make GTs visible to aircrew.
Further, the less we look like an invading force, the less likely we'll cause any alarm to local residents or LE.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on December 29, 2011, 06:56:48 PM
Hopefully this national uniform review will result in a single field uniform for CAP.
We don't need camouflage of any sort; I realize this borders on heresy, but it's the plain fact; we have no reason to conceal our folks, and every reason to make GTs visible to aircrew.
Further, the less we look like an invading force, the less likely we'll cause any alarm to local residents or LE.
But then you cut off a big part of the Cadet Programs. Unless someone wants to suggest to the USAF to adopt a solid color CSAR uniform so we can use it, or have everyone wear flightsuits, I doubt we would fullfill the USAF's needs. Also, why can't we get a uniform with IR squares on it >:D . That'd solve the whole problem!
Quote from: ZigZag911 on December 29, 2011, 06:56:48 PM
Hopefully this national uniform review will result in a single field uniform for CAP.
We don't need camouflage of any sort; I realize this borders on heresy, but it's the plain fact; we have no reason to conceal our folks, and every reason to make GTs visible to aircrew.
Further, the less we look like an invading force, the less likely we'll cause any alarm to local residents or LE.
I wouldn't count on the national review resulting in any drastic changes like the unification of the field uniforms. There are too many problems with doing so and not enough benefits.
Quote from: Darkside1 on December 29, 2011, 07:16:52 PM
I wouldn't count on the national review resulting in any drastic changes like the unification of the field uniforms. There are too many problems with doing so and not enough benefits.
I wouldn't count on the "national review" doing much of anything other than taking the title of the late William F. Buckley's magazine and using it for a "process" that says "OK, we did something," but hasn't done anything except reinforce the status quo.
Quote from: CyBorg on December 29, 2011, 08:49:50 PM
Quote from: Darkside1 on December 29, 2011, 07:16:52 PM
I wouldn't count on the national review resulting in any drastic changes like the unification of the field uniforms. There are too many problems with doing so and not enough benefits.
I wouldn't count on the "national review" doing much of anything other than taking the title of the late William F. Buckley's magazine and using it for a "process" that says "OK, we did something," but hasn't done anything except reinforce the status quo.
Cynicism like that almost qualifies you for membership in NHQ-999
Quote from: Littleguy on December 29, 2011, 07:02:55 PM
But then you cut off a big part of the Cadet Programs. Unless someone wants to suggest to the USAF to adopt a solid color CSAR uniform so we can use it, or have everyone wear flightsuits, I doubt we would fullfill the USAF's needs. Also, why can't we get a uniform with IR squares on it >:D . That'd solve the whole problem!
The CAP cadet program enjoys the use of a uniform as a tool that fulfills many purposes. Primarily the AF Blues and Service Dress uniforms. A unique CAP field uniform would not impact this portion of the program because A) field uniforms aren't the primary tool for teaching the sort of attention to detail that the Service Dress and Blues uniforms do, and B) it's still a uniform.
Also, what does CSAR have to do with anything? That's just silly. USAF CSAR crews don't wear BDUs or ABUs very often anyway.
Quote from: Ed Bos on December 29, 2011, 11:08:21 PM
The CAP cadet program enjoys the use of a uniform as a tool that fulfills many purposes. Primarily the AF Blues and Service Dress uniforms. A unique CAP field uniform would not impact this portion of the program because A)field uniforms aren't the primary tool for teaching the sort of attention to detail that the Service Dress and Blues uniforms do, and B) it's still a uniform.
Why do you say that?
It has been my experience that both service and BDU uniforms are used as the kind of tool you describe.
Indeed, many squadrons spend more time in BDUs than in service uniforms. In those units I would expect that the BDU would indeed be the "primary tool for teaching" the cadets uniform-related lessons.
It is critically important for our cadets to be wearing current USAF-style uniforms wherever and whenever possible.
Quote from: Ed Bos on December 29, 2011, 11:08:21 PM
Quote from: Littleguy on December 29, 2011, 07:02:55 PM
But then you cut off a big part of the Cadet Programs. Unless someone wants to suggest to the USAF to adopt a solid color CSAR uniform so we can use it, or have everyone wear flightsuits, I doubt we would fullfill the USAF's needs. Also, why can't we get a uniform with IR squares on it >:D . That'd solve the whole problem!
The CAP cadet program enjoys the use of a uniform as a tool that fulfills many purposes. Primarily the AF Blues and Service Dress uniforms. A unique CAP field uniform would not impact this portion of the program because A) field uniforms aren't the primary tool for teaching the sort of attention to detail that the Service Dress and Blues uniforms do, and B) it's still a uniform.
Also, what does CSAR have to do with anything? That's just silly. USAF CSAR crews don't wear BDUs or ABUs very often anyway.
I can tell you that the public will not be able distinguish us from the USCG because they too wear blue colored utilities. CSAR crews can choose them none the less (one of those cool features of the elite), and they just told us they would not let us buy a ABU digital uniform, so that rules out the ABG-S which is used and I doubt they'd let us adopt a theater uniform. CSAR has SAR in it, so why not suggest looking somewhat like them while they stateside, since we should mirror our USAF counterparts when we can. Also, don't forget, they aren't stateside in full battle rattle that much anyways, and from a few shows showing CSAR units, they were wearing regular USAF uniforms. Off topic, but there you go. If we don't look like the USAF, then you cut out a huge portion of our recruiting. People like the constant uniformity of military organizations, and the USAF Auxillary part plays key in what people expect of our uniforms to be.
Quote from: Ned on December 29, 2011, 11:30:06 PM
It has been my experience that both service and BDU uniforms are used as the kind of tool you describe.
Indeed, many squadrons spend more time in BDUs than in service uniforms. In those units I would expect that the BDU would indeed be the "primary tool for teaching" the cadets uniform-related lessons.
It is critically important for our cadets to be wearing current USAF-style uniforms wherever and whenever possible.
+1
My squadron wears BDU's probably
75% or more of the time
Quote from: titanII on December 30, 2011, 12:03:18 AM
Quote from: Ned on December 29, 2011, 11:30:06 PM
It has been my experience that both service and BDU uniforms are used as the kind of tool you describe.
Indeed, many squadrons spend more time in BDUs than in service uniforms. In those units I would expect that the BDU would indeed be the "primary tool for teaching" the cadets uniform-related lessons.
It is critically important for our cadets to be wearing current USAF-style uniforms wherever and whenever possible.
+1
My squadron wears BDU's probably 75% or more of the time
Same here. A fellow MAWG cadet knows that blues stink when it gets cold up here ;)
Quote from: Littleguy on December 30, 2011, 12:05:15 AM
Same here. A fellow MAWG cadet knows that blues stink when it gets cold up here ;)
brrrr... I was in blues a few weeks ago, and man...
"The main thing that makes the uniform visible in IR is the type of detergent you use."
Not entirely, or exclusively, true. Yes, some detergents and starch are a HUGE problem. Dyes used in the manufacturing are the critical issue. As well as some fabrics. There's a lot of info out there about this, and I'm not going to post it here. Anyone interested can look it up. Near infrared is a key phrase for searching. From my 20 years of using NV, including PVS4, 5, 7 and 14, (as a Marine, Army Infantry, and AF SF, including combat) LOTS of things show up vividly, or not so vividly, with non-thermal devices. Black is a huge one for HEY I'M HERE. NATO green is practically invisible.
As far as ABUs, just relax. It's only a matter of time until you all get to wear that ugly uniform. Remember, CAP isn't about the uniforms, it's about the program. Nobody should be getting their tiddy in a wringer about this. Way back when, I was wearing green utilities as a cadet. BDUs were not even an option. Now, you all have BDUs, and you are pining for the ABU. Chill.
Quote from: Littleguy on December 30, 2011, 12:01:34 AM
I can tell you that the public will not be able distinguish us from the USCG because they too wear blue colored utilities. CSAR crews can choose them none the less (one of those cool features of the elite), and they just told us they would not let us buy a ABU digital uniform, so that rules out the ABG-S which is used and I doubt they'd let us adopt a theater uniform. CSAR has SAR in it, so why not suggest looking somewhat like them while they stateside, since we should mirror our USAF counterparts when we can. Also, don't forget, they aren't stateside in full battle rattle that much anyways, and from a few shows showing CSAR units, they were wearing regular USAF uniforms. Off topic, but there you go. If we don't look like the USAF, then you cut out a huge portion of our recruiting. People like the constant uniformity of military organizations, and the USAF Auxillary part plays key in what people expect of our uniforms to be.
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you are not a CSAR crewmember. That being said, I AM a CSAR crewmember, and you're way off base. Combat SAR and CAP SAR are very different animals, and one should not equate the two. There are many operational differences, the least of which are the uniforms that are worn.
Quote from: Ed Bos on December 30, 2011, 03:18:37 AM
Quote from: Littleguy on December 30, 2011, 12:01:34 AM
I can tell you that the public will not be able distinguish us from the USCG because they too wear blue colored utilities. CSAR crews can choose them none the less (one of those cool features of the elite), and they just told us they would not let us buy a ABU digital uniform, so that rules out the ABG-S which is used and I doubt they'd let us adopt a theater uniform. CSAR has SAR in it, so why not suggest looking somewhat like them while they stateside, since we should mirror our USAF counterparts when we can. Also, don't forget, they aren't stateside in full battle rattle that much anyways, and from a few shows showing CSAR units, they were wearing regular USAF uniforms. Off topic, but there you go. If we don't look like the USAF, then you cut out a huge portion of our recruiting. People like the constant uniformity of military organizations, and the USAF Auxillary part plays key in what people expect of our uniforms to be.
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you are not a CSAR crewmember. That being said, I AM a CSAR crewmember, and you're way off base. Combat SAR and CAP SAR are very different animals, and one should not equate the two. There are many operational differences, the least of which are the uniforms that are worn.
You know, there's something a little appealing about combat SAR vs. civil SAR. In civil SAR, when we get shot at, we move away. In combat SAR, you shoot back >:D.
Quote from: Ed Bos on December 29, 2011, 11:08:21 PM
The CAP cadet program enjoys the use of a uniform as a tool that fulfills many purposes. Primarily the AF Blues and Service Dress uniforms. A unique CAP field uniform would not impact this portion of the program because A)field uniforms aren't the primary tool for teaching the sort of attention to detail that the Service Dress and Blues uniforms do, and B) it's still a uniform.
Quote from: Ned on December 29, 2011, 11:30:06 PM
Why do you say that?
It has been my experience that both service and BDU uniforms are used as the kind of tool you describe.
Indeed, many squadrons spend more time in BDUs than in service uniforms. In those units I would expect that the BDU would indeed be the "primary tool for teaching" the cadets uniform-related lessons.
It is critically important for our cadets to be wearing current USAF-style uniforms wherever and whenever possible.
I say that for a few reasons:
1) As a "Key Trait of Cadet Life," the AF uniform is still a privilege that can be extended for cadets for the purpose of instilling teamwork and high standards of personal conduct by means of the Blues and Service Dress. In
addition, cadets can enjoy wearing the same field uniform that (potentially) all CAP members wear for conducting field activities (in a situation where we have a single style of utility uniform for our single organization). The privilege of wearing any Civil Air Patrol uniform combination properly and proudly can be used to the same end.
Cite: CAPR 52-16 Para 1-2
2) The fact that many cadet units wear BDUs more often than Blues or Service Dress is a unit choice, and does not change whether that uniform is an Air Force Style uniform, or a uniquely CAP uniform. Since the only minimum required uniform is a service uniform (CAPR 39-1, Para 1-5), it is apparent to me that the Cadet Program can operate with any field uniform the organization chooses to adopt.
3) The reasons mentioned elsewhere on this board, for A) having a single uniform for a single organization, and B) the dangers of wearing cotton camouflage while conducting ground operations, may be resolved by adopting a single style of field uniform, while maintaining the option for USAF and/or corporate service uniforms.
4) I disagree on just how critical it is that our cadets resemble USAF members. The cadet program is more than the uniform. I've seen several youth organizations receive equally good or better support from the armed forces, some in woodland BDUs, some in organizational T-Shirts and jeans, and some in Khaki-colored BDUs. I submit that our relationship with the AF as a staunch supporter of the Cadet program would remain unchanged if the color of our fatigues differed from theirs. This is especially true if cadets continued to wear current USAF service uniforms ...which not all do, since the previous Service Dress jacket is still authorized for cadets...)
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on December 30, 2011, 03:25:29 AM
You know, there's something a little appealing about combat SAR vs. civil SAR. In civil SAR, when we get shot at, we move away. In combat SAR, you shoot back >:D.
It's a
LOT appealing! 8)
In my uneducated SWAG.....we would see a drop of over 50% in new recruits if we dropped the USAF uniforms for cadets.....
The cadets join CAP (at least initially) to play Airman. Loosing the uniforms and they may as well join the Boy Scouts (and this is not a hit on the BSA).
LM-
I don't think so. With young people buying up knock-off MARPAT and CADPAT to play Airsoft, I think they'd be excited enough to wear any uniform. And besides, BSA has lots of young people in it... Our program has a lot more draw than the what color the fabric on your uniform is.
That being said, I'm kind of discouraged that our seniors are so convinced that's the major reason the cadets join.
Quote from: Ed Bos on December 30, 2011, 03:57:16 AM
LM-
I don't think so. With young people buying up knock-off MARPAT and CADPAT to play Airsoft, I think they'd be excited enough to wear any uniform. And besides, BSA has lots of young people in it... Our program has a lot more draw than the what color the fabric on your uniform is.
That being said, I'm kind of discouraged that our seniors are so convinced that's the major reason the cadets join.
The ones who are saying that are the ones who have been working in the cadet program for a number of years and it's based on their observations.
About 67% of the reason I joined CAP initially was because I would have the ability to wear a variant of our Nation's Uniform. A lot of cadets have the primary motivator to join up tied into the uniforms, especially if they're coming from a military family or have aspirations to go into the military later on, etc.
Quote from: HGjunkie on December 30, 2011, 04:27:06 AM
About 67% of the reason I joined CAP initially was because I would have the ability to wear a variant of our Nation's Uniform. A lot of cadets have the primary motivator to join up tied into the uniforms, especially if they're coming from a military family or have aspirations to go into the military later on, etc.
It's not just cadets. I joined very much because of the Air Force connection. If that were lost, a big part of the appeal of CAP to me would be lost.
Quote from: CyBorg on December 30, 2011, 04:43:12 AM
Quote from: HGjunkie on December 30, 2011, 04:27:06 AM
About 67% of the reason I joined CAP initially was because I would have the ability to wear a variant of our Nation's Uniform. A lot of cadets have the primary motivator to join up tied into the uniforms, especially if they're coming from a military family or have aspirations to go into the military later on, etc.
It's not just cadets. I joined very much because of the Air Force connection. If that were lost, a big part of the appeal of CAP to me would be lost.
Second.
My initial, and continuing, reason for joining was the aviation factor. I have embraced that through the cadet program and ES during my 40+ years of membership. The uniform is kool, but hasn't been a big part of the attraction of CAP. I just wish that the heavy/fuzzy folks weren't considered second class members with regard to uniforms.
Quote from: Ed Bos on December 29, 2011, 11:08:21 PM
Quote from: Littleguy on December 29, 2011, 07:02:55 PM
But then you cut off a big part of the Cadet Programs. Unless someone wants to suggest to the USAF to adopt a solid color CSAR uniform so we can use it, or have everyone wear flightsuits, I doubt we would fullfill the USAF's needs. Also, why can't we get a uniform with IR squares on it >:D . That'd solve the whole problem!
The CAP cadet program enjoys the use of a uniform as a tool that fulfills many purposes. Primarily the AF Blues and Service Dress uniforms. A unique CAP field uniform would not impact this portion of the program because A) field uniforms aren't the primary tool for teaching the sort of attention to detail that the Service Dress and Blues uniforms do, and B) it's still a uniform.
Also, what does CSAR have to do with anything? That's just silly. USAF CSAR crews don't wear BDUs or ABUs very often anyway.
When I first joined, as a cadet in the 80's. It was a newspaper article, showing cadets in uniform that caught my attention. Once in, then finding out that working Search and Rescue was one of the areas that got me access to aircraft, then SAR became as attractive. But the intial hook, as a 15 year old, was having the privilege of wearing the uniform of our armed forces. I'm in agreement with the others. No access to the ABU's could have an effect.
Quote from: Ed Bos on December 30, 2011, 03:40:34 AM
1) As a "Key Trait of Cadet Life," the AF uniform is still a privilege that can be extended for cadets for the purpose of instilling teamwork and high standards of personal conduct by means of the Blues and Service Dress. In addition, cadets can enjoy wearing the same field uniform that (potentially) all CAP members wear for conducting field activities (in a situation where we have a single style of utility uniform for our single organization). The privilege of wearing any Civil Air Patrol uniform combination properly and proudly can be used to the same end.
Cite: CAPR 52-16 Para 1-2
Ed,
It is always a little strange when two folks look at the same regulation and draw the opposite conclusion.
When I look at para 1-2a of the 52-16, I see "CAP promotes teamwork and high standards of personal conduct by granting cadets the privilege of wearing an AF-style uniform. The uniform and the related traditions of rendering military customs and courtesies distinguish cadets from ordinary youth. These military aspects of cadet life are important motivators. ( . . .)"
(I thought it was a particularly well-written paragraph.)
But it does not make any sort of distinction between AF-style service uniforms and AF-style field uniforms.
Why do you think it does?
Quote2) The fact that many cadet units wear BDUs more often than Blues or Service Dress is a unit choice,
Sure.
Quoteand does not change whether that uniform is an Air Force Style uniform, or a uniquely CAP uniform.
Non-concur. For over 60 years CAP cadets have worn the USAF style uniform. What you are suggesting would represent a significant and radical change to a successful program.
Indeed, there is no reason to believe that "it doesn't matter if cadets wear the USAF uniform or not," and a substantial body of exerience to suggest that it is critically important for our cadets to wear the USAF style uniform.
Quote3) The reasons mentioned elsewhere on this board, for A) having a single uniform for a single organization,
And as mentioned here on this board, the USAF has as many uniform combinations as we do, and they seem to have survived OK.
Quoteand B) the dangers of wearing cotton camouflage while conducting ground operations, may be resolved by adopting a single style of field uniform, while maintaining the option for USAF and/or corporate service uniforms.
Exactly what dangers are those, exactly, that cannot be cured by current safety regulations such as wearing an orange vest? Can you point to any actual mishaps that have occurred in the last 20 years or so that was solely due to wearing BDUs that would not have occured if the member had worn BBDUs?
Quote4) I disagree on just how critical it is that our cadets resemble USAF members. The cadet program is more than the uniform. I've seen several youth organizations receive equally good or better support from the armed forces, some in woodland BDUs, some in organizational T-Shirts and jeans, and some in Khaki-colored BDUs. I submit that our relationship with the AF as a staunch supporter of the Cadet program would remain unchanged if the color of our fatigues differed from theirs. This is especially true if cadets continued to wear current USAF service uniforms ...which not all do, since the previous Service Dress jacket is still authorized for cadets...)
I certainly cannot disagree with the notion that our terrific CP is "more than the uniform." Similarly, it is mroe than mere AE, CD, and physical fitness. It is more than "mere" leadership training.
But it is also more than the total of all these things. It is a unique program that benefits from the synergy of all of these things as administered by our experienced senior members such as yourself.
If you want to look at a failed paradigm, take a look at the Air Scouts/ Air Explorers / (whatever they may call themselves this year). In the 1960s - 1970s, they were more numerous than CAP cadets. The Air Explorers had uniforms (non-USAF style), highly-trained adult leaders, and had a program that consisted of aerospace education, character development, physical fitness, and career exploration (including USAF careers.)
Sound familiar?
And yet, the last time I spoke with a BSA official at their national headquarters, there were less than fifty Aviation Venturing Crews left nationwide. Less than one per state.
I submit that - despite superior advantages in infrastructure and adult training - the Air Scouts paradigm has been far less successful than the CAP CP because of our military training model.
A large part of which is founded in our identity as the USAF community-based cadet program.
Which is virtually impossible to pull off if our cadets are wearing something other than USAF-style uniforms. We simply cannot accomplish our mission of developing Dynamic American Aerospace Leaders in t-shirts and jeans.
Ned Lee
CP Enthusidast.
Quote from: Ned on December 30, 2011, 05:38:29 AM
If you want to look at a failed paradigm, take a look at the Air Scouts/ Air Explorers / (whatever they may call themselves this year). In the 1960s - 1970s, they were more numerous than CAP cadets. The Air Explorers had uniforms (non-USAF style), highly-trained adult leaders, and had a program that consisted of aerospace education, character development, physical fitness, and career exploration (including USAF careers.)
Sound familiar?
And yet, the last time I spoke with a BSA official at their national headquarters, there were less than fifty Aviation Venturing Crews left nationwide. Less than one per state.
I submit that - despite superior advantages in infrastructure and adult training - the Air Scouts paradigm has been far less successful than the CAP CP because of our military training model.
A large part of which is founded in our identity as the USAF community-based cadet program.
Which is virtually impossible to pull off if our cadets are wearing something other than USAF-style uniforms. We simply cannot accomplish our mission of developing Dynamic American Aerospace Leaders in t-shirts and jeans.
Ned Lee
CP Enthusidast.
I was a member of an Air Explorer Post, it was our CAP Squadron that was dual chartered at the time. Still have the patch in a shadow box.
Quote from: Ned on December 30, 2011, 05:38:29 AM
Quote from: Ed Bos on December 30, 2011, 03:40:34 AM
1) As a "Key Trait of Cadet Life," the AF uniform is still a privilege that can be extended for cadets for the purpose of instilling teamwork and high standards of personal conduct by means of the Blues and Service Dress. In addition, cadets can enjoy wearing the same field uniform that (potentially) all CAP members wear for conducting field activities (in a situation where we have a single style of utility uniform for our single organization). The privilege of wearing any Civil Air Patrol uniform combination properly and proudly can be used to the same end.
Cite: CAPR 52-16 Para 1-2
Ed,
It is always a little strange when two folks look at the same regulation and draw the opposite conclusion.
When I look at para 1-2a of the 52-16, I see "CAP promotes teamwork and high standards of personal conduct by granting cadets the privilege of wearing an AF-style uniform. The uniform and the related traditions of rendering military customs and courtesies distinguish cadets from ordinary youth. These military aspects of cadet life are important motivators. ( . . .)"
(I thought it was a particularly well-written paragraph.)
But it does not make any sort of distinction between AF-style service uniforms and AF-style field uniforms.
Why do you think it does?
Quote2) The fact that many cadet units wear BDUs more often than Blues or Service Dress is a unit choice,
Sure.
Quoteand does not change whether that uniform is an Air Force Style uniform, or a uniquely CAP uniform.
Non-concur. For over 60 years CAP cadets have worn the USAF style uniform. What you are suggesting would represent a significant and radical change to a successful program.
Indeed, there is no reason to believe that "it doesn't matter if cadets wear the USAF uniform or not," and a substantial body of exerience to suggest that it is critically important for our cadets to wear the USAF style uniform.
Quote3) The reasons mentioned elsewhere on this board, for A) having a single uniform for a single organization,
And as mentioned here on this board, the USAF has as many uniform combinations as we do, and they seem to have survived OK.
Quoteand B) the dangers of wearing cotton camouflage while conducting ground operations, may be resolved by adopting a single style of field uniform, while maintaining the option for USAF and/or corporate service uniforms.
Exactly what dangers are those, exactly, that cannot be cured by current safety regulations such as wearing an orange vest? Can you point to any actual mishaps that have occurred in the last 20 years or so that was solely due to wearing BDUs that would not have occured if the member had worn BBDUs?
Quote4) I disagree on just how critical it is that our cadets resemble USAF members. The cadet program is more than the uniform. I've seen several youth organizations receive equally good or better support from the armed forces, some in woodland BDUs, some in organizational T-Shirts and jeans, and some in Khaki-colored BDUs. I submit that our relationship with the AF as a staunch supporter of the Cadet program would remain unchanged if the color of our fatigues differed from theirs. This is especially true if cadets continued to wear current USAF service uniforms ...which not all do, since the previous Service Dress jacket is still authorized for cadets...)
I certainly cannot disagree with the notion that our terrific CP is "more than the uniform." Similarly, it is mroe than mere AE, CD, and physical fitness. It is more than "mere" leadership training.
But it is also more than the total of all these things. It is a unique program that benefits from the synergy of all of these things as administered by our experienced senior members such as yourself.
If you want to look at a failed paradigm, take a look at the Air Scouts/ Air Explorers / (whatever they may call themselves this year). In the 1960s - 1970s, they were more numerous than CAP cadets. The Air Explorers had uniforms (non-USAF style), highly-trained adult leaders, and had a program that consisted of aerospace education, character development, physical fitness, and career exploration (including USAF careers.)
Sound familiar?
And yet, the last time I spoke with a BSA official at their national headquarters, there were less than fifty Aviation Venturing Crews left nationwide. Less than one per state.
I submit that - despite superior advantages in infrastructure and adult training - the Air Scouts paradigm has been far less successful than the CAP CP because of our military training model.
A large part of which is founded in our identity as the USAF community-based cadet program.
Which is virtually impossible to pull off if our cadets are wearing something other than USAF-style uniforms. We simply cannot accomplish our mission of developing Dynamic American Aerospace Leaders in t-shirts and jeans.
Ned Lee
CP Enthusidast.
Well, Colonel Lee, I think the fundamental disagreement we have is the impact a transition from the BDU to some unique CAP field uniform vs. the ABU will be.
I don't think Paragraph 1-2a of the 52-16 is specific to field or service uniforms. Rather, the point I'm trying to make clear rests on 3 arguments/hypotheses:
1) From what I understand, the 60 years of wearing a USAF style uniform has put CAP in a position to wear obsolete uniforms during several uniform transitions on the part of the USAF. This tells me that we don't always wear the "same" uniform as our sponsoring service. Am I mistaken in this?
2) We would not abandon our ties to the USAF in any meaningful way if we transitioned to a single, uniquely-CAP, field uniform, especially considering that cadets can and should wear the USAF style service uniform.
3) Because the 39-1 states that the minimum uniform is a service one, there must be no compelling reason that any unit must wear the BDUs... This is something I was attempting to tie-in with Para 1-2 of the 52-16. The cadet program will continue to have a military flavor if the USAF service uniform is used as it currently is, and with whatever field uniforms come down the road for the organization.
I am saying that the privilege of wearing a different, and uniquely CAP field uniform can be just as effective as wearing a USAF-style CAP field uniform. This is precisely because "our terrific CP" is more than the uniform, more than mere AE, CD, physical fitness, and more than mere leadership training.
I do not recall having ever relied on the color of any uniform to determine the lessons at hand, either working specifically with the cadet program, or emergency services activities, and I truly believe that you have not either.
With your question regarding the dangers of wearing a cotton camouflage uniform, I have two points:
1) If you'll accept an anecdote, I have personally had a difficult time responding to multiple urgent situations in the field, where I could not easily locate a cadet during training, partially because they were difficult to see in camouflage. The high-visibility of uniforms worn by other SAR agencies would have been much more helpful in those situations, as they are even easier to see when obscured by equipment and gear, than the ANSI II vests called for in the current guidance.
Note: Interestingly, though not authorized in the 39-1, "safety apparel" is authorized with corporate uniforms in CAPR 62-1, but prohibited with the BDUs in the same paragraph (Para 7-c).
2) Even more than the color of our field uniforms, I am concerned that as a primary SAR agency, we continue to outfit ourselves (and our young cadets!) in cotton to conduct outdoor operations. A Google search of the terms "cotton" and "hypothermia" returns several hundred thousand websites, many of which repeat the mantra, "cotton kills."
Unrelated to the above, the "safety regulations," don't have much about conducting safe operations in them. They mention ORM, but don't specify how to mitigate any particular threat. The "safety regulations," appear to be mostly corporate CYA (please forgive the colloquialism) and how to fill out safety paperwork.
I know I'm not the only person to broadcast these particular points, but these both continue to be sticking points with many of my Ground Team Leader students when I discuss safety and mission readiness.
While I understand that the "safety" points I have brought up are not directly relevant to the importance of the USAF vs Corporate field uniform discussion, I think that the more efficient course of action in light of the AF conversion away from the BDU would be CAP also converting to another field uniform... just not the ABU.
I don't have nearly the same level of experience with CAP cadet programs that you do, but I truly believe that CAP cadets would still have an outstanding program with USAF service dress and CAP field uniforms (not T-shirts and jeans!).
Thanks for asking some good questions to guide my response back to the heart of the matter, and I hope I made myself clear in my attempt to communicate these thoughts.
It is not that we would not have an outstanding program.....it is that we would not have any cadets who would want to join.
You are looking at this issue as an adult...not as a 12 year old.....and they have a whole different outlook on things.
Yes you are correct that any sort of cammo is bad for GSAR as far as visibility goes....but that also goes for BBDU's.
But that has already been address with the requirment to wear a High Vis vest......now if we can only get them to wear the stupid thing over their back packs and field gear! ;D
The cotton blend mix of our BDU's is just fine! Really! The military has been using it for years...and still uses it with out any problems!
Yes wool and synthetic fibers are better....but remember that 100% cotton kills.....cotton blends not so much!
Finally you don't understand the ORM process.
Yes the regulations do not tell you how to be safe, how to mitigate hazards, or dictate specific safety issues. It is designed that way. The Safety regs would be 1000 pages long and would be too cumberson to do anything. The whole point of ORM is for you the operator to identify the hazards.....find the appropriate mitigation for your situation and apply it.....with out some bozo in Alabama telling you that need to carry sand and a snow shovel in Nevada so you can dig out your CAP Van.
And my bottom line.....we are the USAF Auxillary......we should be in the USAF uniform.
Quote from: titanII on December 30, 2011, 12:09:23 AM
Quote from: Littleguy on December 30, 2011, 12:05:15 AM
Same here. A fellow MAWG cadet knows that blues stink when it gets cold up here ;)
brrrr... I was in blues a few weeks ago, and man...
Do you suffer from sail hat like I do? Has in, the flight cap trying to fly ;D
Quote from: lordmonar on December 30, 2011, 03:18:37 PM
And my bottom line.....we are the USAF Auxillary......we should be in the USAF uniform.
Full agreement...if only the USAF would take a page from the CGAUX' book on that, and if only we didn't have an active section of our membership pushing for exactly the opposite.
"I am concerned that as a primary SAR agency..."
Cadets can spend their entire time in CAP and not work within SAR. SAR biased members can forget that sometimes, my years of observation.
Respectfully,
Quote from: Littleguy on December 30, 2011, 03:22:06 PM
Do you suffer from sail hat like I do? Has in, the flight cap trying to fly ;D
Lol no. My flight cap fits pretty well, especially with my really short hair, so no, not really. But I have seen that problem with other cadets...
Quote from: FARRIER on December 30, 2011, 04:22:17 PM
SAR biased members can forget that sometimes, my years of observation.
An essential truth about CAP that needs to be repeated...often.
Too many see us as just a flying ES agency.
My unit has several cadets with GT quals, a couple with a Find ribbon, a few graduates of SAR Academy, and many others who have and probably never will get into SAR/ES.
Quote from: Ed Bos on December 30, 2011, 09:19:46 AM
[T]he point I'm trying to make clear rests on 3 arguments/hypotheses:
1) From what I understand, the 60 years of wearing a USAF style uniform has put CAP in a position to wear obsolete uniforms during several uniform transitions on the part of the USAF. This tells me that we don't always wear the "same" uniform as our sponsoring service. Am I mistaken in this?
I think so.
CAP has indeed worn uniforms that the USAF considers "obsolete," but usually as part of a transition period that allows our members the ability to continue to wear the obsolete uniforms for a period of years after the USAF sunset date. This is a Good Thing for our members because it usually allows them to get the full "wear value" from their uniform purchase dollars.
But in the last two major uniform transitions I have personally experienced (khaki shade 1505 to light blue shirts and green fatigues to BDU) there was no significant lag period where members could not wear the current AF-style uniforms if they wanted.
(Interestingly, during the fatigue to BDU transition, many of the same concerns we hear about a potential ABU transition were heard loudly and often: "The new BDUs are too expensive, especially for cadets!" "We don't need camoflauge to do _______!" etc. And then, as now, CP leaders predicted that the cadets would voluntarily transition early and often and with great enthusiasm.)
Quote2) We would not abandon our ties to the USAF in any meaningful way if we transitioned to a single, uniquely-CAP, field uniform, especially considering that cadets can and should wear the USAF style service uniform.
Yeah, you keep saying that. But you are the one proposing a significant change to a successful program, and I am hoping that you can support this argument with something more than a sincere expression of personal opinion.
My position ("CAP cadets wear USAF style uniforms whenever possible") has been our policy for over 60 years and has a proven record of success.
Quote3) Because the 39-1 states that the minimum uniform is a service one, there must be no compelling reason that any unit must wear the BDUs...
I don't follow you here. I can only agree that the 39-1 does prescribe such a minimum uniform, but I cannot agree that "there must be no compelling reason that any unit must wear the BDUs." The latter seems logically unrelated to the former.
Arguably a cadet could never leave the classroom or go to the field and achieve a successful cadet career. Indeed, we undoubtedly number of disabled cadets who benefit from the program despite such limitations.
But as a practical matter, every cadet participates in things like field exercises, encampments, and NCSAs where a field uniform is required. And for over 60 years it has been invariably a USAF-style field uniform.
QuoteI am saying that the privilege of wearing a different, and uniquely CAP field uniform can be just as effective as wearing a USAF-style CAP field uniform.
Once again, sincere statement of personal opinion noted.
QuoteI do not recall having ever relied on the color of any uniform to determine the lessons at hand, either working specifically with the cadet program, or emergency services activities, and I truly believe that you have not either.
Nice try, but we both know that we are not talking about the "color" of the uniform. We are talking about whether it is a version of a current USAF uniform, regardless of the color.
And yes, I have led CD sessions where we talk about the significance of the USAF-style uniform, and the privilege extended to CAP of wearing it. How it creates expectations on the part of both the public, local stakeholders, and our AF colleagues. And how important it is for each of us - from the youngest cadet to the oldest senior - to prepare ourselves and to act and behave accordingly.
I have done my fair share of "CAP active-duty" for things like earthquakes and disaster relief, and found that wearing a current AF-style uniform in the field enhanced our ability to work effectively with local agencies and DoD partners.
Because if was an AF-style uniform, not
despite it. But reading CT, I understand that not everyone shares that particular experience.
QuoteWith your question regarding the dangers of wearing a cotton camouflage uniform, I have two points:
1) If you'll accept an anecdote, I have personally had a difficult time responding to multiple urgent situations in the field, where I could not easily locate a cadet during training, partially because they were difficult to see in camouflage. The high-visibility of uniforms worn by other SAR agencies would have been much more helpful in those situations, as they are even easier to see when obscured by equipment and gear, than the ANSI II vests called for in the current guidance.
Note: Interestingly, though not authorized in the 39-1, "safety apparel" is authorized with corporate uniforms in CAPR 62-1, but prohibited with the BDUs in the same paragraph (Para 7-c).
I certainly can't disagree with the basic premise that camoflauge uniforms can be harder to see in the woods than brightly-colored uniforms. And sometimes it can certainly be important to be able to find members quickly and easily.
But we don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. That's why we have an ORM process. If a given situation dictates, leaders can mandate high-visibility vests, chemlights, or whatever is necessary to reduce risk to our members consistent with accomplishing the mission.
Quote
2) Even more than the color of our field uniforms, I am concerned that as a primary SAR agency, we continue to outfit ourselves (and our young cadets!) in cotton to conduct outdoor operations. A Google search of the terms "cotton" and "hypothermia" returns several hundred thousand websites, many of which repeat the mantra, "cotton kills."
Like others have posted, I need to non-concur with this point. As infantry officer, I certainly wore my Army BDUs in some very hot, very cold, and very wet situations for extended periods of time. And we managed to make it work just fine.
QuoteThanks for asking some good questions to guide my response back to the heart of the matter, and I hope I made myself clear in my attempt to communicate these thoughts.
Back at you. I appreciate your substantial ES experience and qualifications, and I sincerely thank you for the work you do supporting our cadet program.
Do camouflage uniforms attract young people to the cadet program> Granted.
If we got rid of them overnight would it be a problem? Probably.
Would some cadets (and seniors) go away if we lost or gave up USAF BDUs?
Undoubtedly.
Are we selling our cadets short by saying that we'd lose a majority of them? I think so.
Would CAP be better off without members (cadet or senior) whose main reason for belonging is to wear a military uniform? I believe so.
Please don't misunderstand me: I favor the USAF service dress for all who are permitted to wear it, I am not suggesting distancing ourselves from the Air Force.
My sole point is that, as BDUs gradually go away, and with it appearing that we won't have the use of ABUs, then it's time to transition everyone to a single work/field uniform.
With phaseout dates and such, it almost certainly would not have a direct impact on cadet membership or recruiting.
The average cadet membership tenure is somewhere in the vicinity of 2 to 2.5 years; by the time any change came into play, we'd have a whole 'generation' of cadets who'd view BBDUs as "the way it has always been".
We seem to have got into the "groove" of talking about just cadets wearing the BDU's and USAF-type uniforms in general.
Is it not just as important for seniors to be able to continue to wear those uniforms?
Not all of us are of the mindset of so many on CT who just think all we need are a polo shirt and a set of grey pants.
The only problem with talking about Seniors is USAF's hang up with the fat and fuzzies/those who decide not to play.
IMHO.....I would like to see all the corporates (exept the polo combo...which should be changed to the polo and Kakhi to match the USAF's polo combo)....go away.
If the USAF can't get over those who don't match USAF image standards wearing their uniform....then I would rather CAP adopt one uniform for cadets and one for seniors.
That way there is more uniformity and the glarring difference between the two uniforms is easily explain....(they are cadets and we are senior members), instead of the current explanation (he does not meet USAF standards or he just does not want to wear the USAF uniforms) which lead to the second class stigma of the corporate uniforms.
But yes.....USAF style uniforms are importanat to senior members....with a lot of people on CT and CS who have said that they would quit if they could not wear the USAF uniform.....however IMHO I don't think that the impact of losing the USAF unifroms would affect membership numbers with seniors as much it does for cadets.
On the imporatance of USAF unifroms is that...even with all the guys who don't read the manual, don't care what the manuals says, or have been mis-informed by their leadership......loosing the USAF uniforms will increase the amount of violations......most CAP members know how imporatant the USAF uniform is the USAF's image and they take the pride and time to do it right. With BBDU's and the white and greys....I don't see the same level of attention to detail compared to the USAF unifroms. YMMV.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on December 30, 2011, 06:38:25 PM
Would CAP be better off without members (cadet or senior) whose main reason for belonging is to wear a military uniform? I believe so.
I think the seniors would be lost not because they couldn't wear a military uniform, but primarily because of the symbolism behind that loss. To me it would be a statement that the AF doesn't want to be associated with CAP and since I am in CAP primarily to support the AF in my own small way, it would be saying to me that my services are no longer wanted.
Quote from: RiverAux on December 30, 2011, 08:48:24 PM
I think the seniors would be lost not because they couldn't wear a military uniform, but primarily because of the symbolism behind that loss. To me it would be a statement that the AF doesn't want to be associated with CAP and since I am in CAP primarily to support the AF in my own small way, it would be saying to me that my services are no longer wanted.
Quite well said.
The AF has kept us at arm's length for about 20 years and that would just be the final break.
Edited to fix my screwup in quote box.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 30, 2011, 03:18:37 PM
Yes you are correct that any sort of cammo is bad for GSAR as far as visibility goes....but that also goes for BBDU's.
I didn't say anything otherwise, I totally agree with that statement. I don't think the current BBDU is the answer either, but that's another can of worms.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 30, 2011, 03:18:37 PM
But that has already been address with the requirment to wear a High Vis vest......now if we can only get them to wear the stupid thing over their back packs and field gear! ;D
That's my point, a vest is just plain less effective than a high-vis uniform because it goes over, under, and around different parts of equipment.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 30, 2011, 03:18:37 PM
The cotton blend mix of our BDU's is just fine! Really! The military has been using it for years...and still uses it with out any problems!
Yes wool and synthetic fibers are better....but remember that 100% cotton kills.....cotton blends not so much!
I'm in the service too, and while I only have half the number of years in that many of the folks on here do, I've had some unique experiences and some perspectives that tell me A) there are some problems, and B) the military accepts certain risks as trade offs for other things, and has other ways to mitigate them (without going too far in the weeds, they accept less effective clothing as a trade off for outfitting thousands upon thousands of people, and they issue additional gear as required).
Quote from: lordmonar on December 30, 2011, 03:18:37 PM
Finally you don't understand the ORM process.
I understand ORM just fine. The "safety culture" that CAP is trying to institute is haphazard, and the "safety regulations"
focus on things that are not proactively safety related, they're how to react to an accident or incident.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 30, 2011, 03:18:37 PMAnd my bottom line.....we are the USAF Auxillary......we should be in the USAF uniform.
Yes, Ned and you have asserted that's a requirement as you see it. I think we can do better.
Quote from: FARRIER on December 30, 2011, 04:22:17 PM
Cadets can spend their entire time in CAP and not work within SAR. SAR biased members can forget that sometimes, my years of observation.
That's true, but that is irrelevant to the fact that we have a real-world emergency services mission totally outside of the somewhat self-contained-world of the cadet program.
While the uniform changes I would like to see would impact a portion the cadet program, I am trying to fix something that I'm surprised others don't see as a problem.
Quote from: Ed Bos on December 30, 2011, 10:20:36 PM
Quote from: FARRIER on December 30, 2011, 04:22:17 PM
Cadets can spend their entire time in CAP and not work within SAR. SAR biased members can forget that sometimes, my years of observation.
That's true, but that is irrelevant to the fact that we have a real-world emergency services mission totally outside of the somewhat self-contained-world of the cadet program.
While the uniform changes I would like to see would impact a portion the cadet program, I am trying to fix something that I'm surprised others don't see as a problem.
Myself a former Cadet and at one point a Cadet Programs Officer, and others like myself in this thread, your fix to one problem will most certainty cause harm to the cadet programs. Also, as Col. Lee said ,cadets, if they have the income source, will be the first to purchase the latest authorized version. I remember when, then called the Class B's, the short sleeve blue shirt didn't have the epaulettes. As soon as we were authorized to wear the new shirts with the epaulettes, I went down the AAFES and bought one.
Ed, if you are worried about a ground team uniform, advocate for something similar to California Wing is doing now. Back in the 1980's, the Ground Teams in Colorado wore orange shirts and wool pants, footwear to meet the conditions. Since the conversation initially focused on the cadets, those that didn't participate in Ground SAR had the then green utility uniforms for normal cadet activities.
There is a middle ground option.
Quote from: Ed Bos on December 30, 2011, 10:20:36 PMQuote from: lordmonar on December 30, 2011, 03:18:37 PM
But that has already been address with the requirment to wear a High Vis vest......now if we can only get them to wear the stupid thing over their back packs and field gear! ;D
That's my point, a vest is just plain less effective than a high-vis uniform because it goes over, under, and around different parts of equipment.
Even if we wore orange jump suits as our uniforms....they would still be under all our gear and equipment. Same problem...same solution....wear the vest over your equipment.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 30, 2011, 11:14:44 PM
Even if we wore orange jump suits as our uniforms....they would still be under all our gear and equipment. Same problem...same solution....wear the vest over your equipment.
Respectfully disagree, but that's for another thread :)
Quote from: FARRIER on December 30, 2011, 10:42:44 PM
There is a middle ground option.
One of the members of the GSAR group I work with in AK is from COWG, BITD. His insights have shaped my opinions a great deal. I'm sure a middle ground solution is where we'll end up, and there's nothing wrong with compromise.
I'm just not particularly keen on folks touting the ABU as the (potentially) newest and greatest CAP uniform, since when it was designed there was absolutely no thought about how to maximize the design for our little corner of the world.
Quote from: Ed Bos on December 31, 2011, 12:08:49 AM
I'm just not particularly keen on folks touting the ABU as the (potentially) newest and greatest CAP uniform,
I doubt there is a single person that would like to see CAP in ABUs because they think it is a better uniform than BDUs. From a practical point of view it will probably be about the useful as the BDU or any other uniform we could choose.
It is all about our actual and perceived relationship to the Air Force.
Having worn OD's, BDU's and ABU's in my time in the USAF......it is six of one/half dozen of the other.
OD's were the most comfortable and cheapest......but I converted to BDU's as soon as I could because of the "warrior" ethos the USAF was trying to sell at the time.
BDU's to ABU's........my first set of ABU's were hotter the BDU's due to the map pocket in the jacket....which I cut out of my second set. I love the wash and wear and the lack of unit patches. The no polish boots also are a plus.
But as RiverAux said.....if the USAF started wearing Neon Green Chainmail and Blue TuTus......I would still advocate that CAP transition to them....because we are their Auxillary and should look like them...(within reason :D ).
Now.....if you are proposing an ES GSAR specific uniforms that is professional looking, low cost, and adds value to the mission (higher vis, safer fabric, built in ELT)...I am all ears. The CAWG ES uniform is an example of that (although I think like the ABU announcement in EServices....the justification was a little weak.)
Quote from: lordmonar on December 31, 2011, 12:51:14 AM
Having worn OD's, BDU's and ABU's in my time in the USAF......it is six of one/half dozen of the other.
OD's were the most comfortable and cheapest......but I converted to BDU's as soon as I could because of the "warrior" ethos the USAF was trying to sell at the time.
BDU's to ABU's........my first set of ABU's were hotter the BDU's due to the map pocket in the jacket....which I cut out of my second set. I love the wash and wear and the lack of unit patches. The no polish boots also are a plus.
But as RiverAux said.....if the USAF started wearing Neon Green Chainmail and Blue TuTus......I would still advocate that CAP transition to them....because we are their Auxillary and should look like them...(within reason :D ).
Now.....if you are proposing an ES GSAR specific uniforms that is professional looking, low cost, and adds value to the mission (higher vis, safer fabric, built in ELT)...I am all ears. The CAWG ES uniform is an example of that (although I think like the ABU announcement in EServices....the justification was a little weak.)
Very well put. :clap:
If you all want to wear the Air Force uniform, TAKE THE OATH.
It gets pretty annoying hearing cadets talking about how badly they want to wear ABU's, and "look" like the REAL Air Force.
I'm in AFROTC right now, and even I can life with the fact that I wont wear until second semester starts up. ( this is my first year so I only get to wear the Short Sleve Blue's uniform as a freshman until second semester)
It doesn't seem right to have 12 year old's running around in ANY USAF uniform. And if we switch to ABU's the only thing differentiating us from USAF would be the name tape and service tape, plus grade insignia.
Has anyone thought how the Air Force would feel to see us all in a relatively new combat uniform? We are still a different organization with a different command structure, not to mention a different mission. And in terms of our MISSION ABU's will have little effect on accomplishing it.
BDU's are sustainable for several more years in terms of supply stocks. there are still some units sitting on stockpiles of them, I guarantee there will be hundreds fed through a shredder by the time 2012 comes around.
Quote from: SABRE17 on December 31, 2011, 02:37:18 AMHas anyone thought how the Air Force would feel to see us all in a relatively new combat uniform?
Gee, they seemed to have managed to live with it for 70 years....
Quote from: lordmonar on December 30, 2011, 11:14:44 PM
Quote from: Ed Bos on December 30, 2011, 10:20:36 PMQuote from: lordmonar on December 30, 2011, 03:18:37 PM
But that has already been address with the requirment to wear a High Vis vest......now if we can only get them to wear the stupid thing over their back packs and field gear! ;D
That's my point, a vest is just plain less effective than a high-vis uniform because it goes over, under, and around different parts of equipment.
Even if we wore orange jump suits as our uniforms....they would still be under all our gear and equipment. Same problem...same solution....wear the vest over your equipment.
Not true. Very little of the gear that we wear covers sleeves or legs. An orange shirt, or jumpsuit as you mention, will show up very well when there is a backpack or vest covering the torso.
Quote from: SABRE17 on December 31, 2011, 02:37:18 AM
If you all want to wear the Air Force uniform, TAKE THE OATH.
Pretty bold statement for somebody who hasn't served, yet.
Why not save that fire and vinegar for field training. Where it might just come in handy.
Oh, and make sure you wear MY uniform correctly.
QuotePretty bold statement for somebody who hasn't served, yet.
Hence why I have no intention of wearing the ABU in any realm of CAP. If I could Id wear BDU's in ROTC.
Quote from: SABRE17 on December 31, 2011, 02:37:18 AM
If you all want to wear the Air Force uniform, TAKE THE OATH.
A lot of us have.
Quote from: SABRE17 on December 31, 2011, 02:37:18 AM
It doesn't seem right to have 12 year old's running around in ANY USAF uniform.
Hmmm...I'm betting you'd have a different take on that had you been a cadet at 12.
Quote from: SABRE17 on December 31, 2011, 02:37:18 AM
And if we switch to ABU's the only thing differentiating us from USAF would be the name tape and service tape, plus grade insignia.
Non-concur. There won't be CAP members packing hardware like this...
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRpHr79cL4sIBcGP84w5yTKq7JmP6gGoVGyU99UkzeUhmMuEyljSWZJVTneVw)
...or at least there
shouldn't be.
Quote from: SABRE17 on December 31, 2011, 02:37:18 AM
Has anyone thought how the Air Force would feel to see us all in a relatively new combat uniform?
I don't think the Air Force feels much of
anything about us, and hasn't for quite a few years.
Quote from: SABRE17 on December 31, 2011, 02:37:18 AM
And in terms of our MISSION ABU's will have little effect on accomplishing it.
You are correct. Most of the time I wear BBDU's or the blue utility jumpsuit when I have to get dirty. However, there is a little matter of esprit de corps, and the fact that many of us
do cherish our connections to the AF, no matter how increasingly-tenuous they may or may not be.
Quote from: SABRE17 on December 31, 2011, 02:37:18 AM
BDU's are sustainable for several more years in terms of supply stocks. there are still some units sitting on stockpiles of them,
Not sure where you get your information. My unit meets on an ANG installation that also has some AFRES personnel, and I couldn't tell you when the last time was I saw any of them in BDU's. One of our members is also in the ANG, and he told me that BDU's are "history." I couldn't even tell you when the last time was I saw them in the BX MCSS.
Quote from: SABRE17 on December 31, 2011, 02:37:18 AM
I guarantee there will be hundreds fed through a shredder by the time 2012 comes around.
If that's the case, then it will just be another colossal example of DoD wastefulness...but I don't see Propper, Tru-Spec, etc. ceasing to manufacture them.
Quote from: SABRE17 on December 31, 2011, 02:37:18 AM
If you all want to wear the Air Force uniform, TAKE THE OATH.
Before you start telling people to "TAKE THE OATH", perhaps you should review this topic: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=9288.0 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=9288.0)
Many of us were serving in uniform before you were a gleam in your daddy's eye, and find that kind of remark a bit offensive.
Oh boy, this justifies an answer in red, pure and simple :angel:
Quote from: lordmonar on December 30, 2011, 03:18:37 PM
It is not that we would not have an outstanding program.....it is that we would not have any cadets who would want to join.
You are looking at this issue as an adult...not as a 12 year old.....and they have a whole different outlook on things.
Yes they want to play army or air force, and that is fine. Ideally we can keep costs down, by making use of ANY (type/style) free uniforms provided to us by the Air Force. IF you live in FL you likely won't need the same type of outer wear protection as in NH
Yes you are correct that any sort of cammo is bad for GSAR as far as visibility goes....but that also goes for BBDU's.
But that has already been address with the requirment to wear a High Vis vest......now if we can only get them to wear the stupid thing over their back packs and field gear! ;D
Orange vests will kind of work. Ideally there's a good contrast with the pants and also headgear with whatever wooded area they are in
The cotton blend mix of our BDU's is just fine! Really! The military has been using it for years...and still uses it with out any problems!
Yes wool and synthetic fibers are better....but remember that 100% cotton kills.....cotton blends not so much!
Hmm, EVERY expert I know (CAP members with 20+ years of back packing backwoods hiking/camping experience, BEFORE they ever set foot into CAP), tell me that those BDU's worn as ground team members, heading into wooded winter missions will result in cold injuries and even potential death to members. None would take ANY member out into the woods in the winter or even other times with low temperatures with just that uniform (including field jacket). It's just pure FANTASY to believe that most ground teams have ANY winter capability in CAP.
Finally you don't understand the ORM process.
Yes the regulations do not tell you how to be safe, how to mitigate hazards, or dictate specific safety issues. It is designed that way. The Safety regs would be 1000 pages long and would be too cumberson to do anything. The whole point of ORM is for you the operator to identify the hazards.....find the appropriate mitigation for your situation and apply it.....with out some bozo in Alabama telling you that need to carry sand and a snow shovel in Nevada so you can dig out your CAP Van.
Yes, and it going to be a "no go" for the vast majority of ground teams in cold weather areas. My experts tell me you are looking at $300+ to equip oneself for winter weather hiking/camping. Add to CAP not having snowmobiles, etc and you have a disaster brewing.
And my bottom line.....we are the USAF Auxillary......we should be in the USAF uniform.
Well the Air Force in their implementing regulation, see us as the CIVILIAN Auxiliary of the USAF, so they could approve a different uniform for SAR/Disaster support and another uniform for squadron area training.
BTW IF we can offer cadets free ABU's than I personally have nothing against that issue. HOWEVER, I've heard that we are getting lots of BDU's, so that may very well be the uniform for awhile.
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on December 31, 2011, 05:12:26 AM
Yes they want to play army or air force, and that is fine. Ideally we can keep costs down, by making use of ANY (type/style) free uniforms provided to us by the Air Force. IF you live in FL you likely won't need the same type of outer wear protection as in NH
I stopped reading there. In certain parts of Florida it can get very cold during the winter.
Also, yada yada RM wants us all in red uniforms etc...
Quote from: SarDragon on December 31, 2011, 03:27:34 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 30, 2011, 11:14:44 PM
Quote from: Ed Bos on December 30, 2011, 10:20:36 PMQuote from: lordmonar on December 30, 2011, 03:18:37 PM
But that has already been address with the requirment to wear a High Vis vest......now if we can only get them to wear the stupid thing over their back packs and field gear! ;D
That's my point, a vest is just plain less effective than a high-vis uniform because it goes over, under, and around different parts of equipment.
Even if we wore orange jump suits as our uniforms....they would still be under all our gear and equipment. Same problem...same solution....wear the vest over your equipment.
Not true. Very little of the gear that we wear covers sleeves or legs. An orange shirt, or jumpsuit as you mention, will show up very well when there is a backpack or vest covering the torso.
Right up until I put my ski jacket or by BDU gortex over my orange jump suit! >:D
Visibility in the field is not the primary concern in our field uniform IMHO. There are several easy fixes for it....that are already in place.
Quote from: RMHmm, EVERY expert I know (CAP members with 20+ years of back packing backwoods hiking/camping experience, BEFORE they ever set foot into CAP), tell me that those BDU's worn as ground team members, heading into wooded winter missions will result in cold injuries and even potential death to members. None would take ANY member out into the woods in the winter or even other times with low temperatures with just that uniform (including field jacket). It's just pure FANTASY to believe that most ground teams have ANY winter capability in CAP.
Well you know experts are a dime a dozens....I got more then 40 years of back packing, hiking and camping experince.....all seasons including norther tier mountain camping and hiking......so there you go.
Now let's put some statistics where your mouth is. CAP has been doing winter operations for many many years. Hawk Mountain runs a winter session every year. Strange that they have not had to call those off because of all the cold injuries they are having while wearing the BDUs.
Lots of Northern Tier Wings (MI, WI, MA, ND, SD, ID) hold winter activities....and I don't see a lot of safety reports from NHQ about the dangers of BDU's and winter weather.
If BDU and ABU's are so deadly.....do you think the military would be using them in their northern tier bases? At their winter Surivival Couse in Oregon?
Is poly cotton the best fabric for cold weather work? No of course not. But it is not a fair assessment to say that we are complete failures because of our BDU's.
Also IIRC there was an article about a successful GSAR operation just last winter....by CAP members in BDUs!
And you would think that AKWG would have clued us into this danger lurking in our midsts all these years.
But I know where you are comming from....any excuse to get us out of military uniforms..... :(
Quote from: lordmonar on December 31, 2011, 08:02:58 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on December 31, 2011, 03:27:34 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 30, 2011, 11:14:44 PM
Quote from: Ed Bos on December 30, 2011, 10:20:36 PMQuote from: lordmonar on December 30, 2011, 03:18:37 PM
But that has already been address with the requirment to wear a High Vis vest......now if we can only get them to wear the stupid thing over their back packs and field gear! ;D
That's my point, a vest is just plain less effective than a high-vis uniform because it goes over, under, and around different parts of equipment.
Even if we wore orange jump suits as our uniforms....they would still be under all our gear and equipment. Same problem...same solution....wear the vest over your equipment.
Not true. Very little of the gear that we wear covers sleeves or legs. An orange shirt, or jumpsuit as you mention, will show up very well when there is a backpack or vest covering the torso.
Right up until I put my ski jacket or by BDU gortex over my orange jump suit! >:D
Visibility in the field is not the primary concern in our field uniform IMHO. There are several easy fixes for it....that are already in place.
Gall's (http://www.galls.com/search?searchaction=1&category=Jackets+%26+Outerwear&path=All+Products%2f%2f%2f%2fUserSearch%3dVenture_id%3d503185%2f%2f%2f%2fApparel+%26+Uniforms) has some great hi-vis outer wear.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 31, 2011, 08:33:36 AM
If BDU and ABU's are so deadly.....do you think the military would be using them in their northern tier bases? At their winter Surivival Couse in Oregon?
First of all, relax! Second of all, guess which career field doesn't wear standard issue uniforms at "their winter Survival Course in Oregon?"
Quote from: lordmonar on December 31, 2011, 08:33:36 AM
Is poly cotton the best fabric for cold weather work? No of course not. But it is not a fair assessment to say that we are complete failures because of our BDU's.
Nobody said anything about being complete failures.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 31, 2011, 08:33:36 AM
And you would think that AKWG would have clued us into this danger lurking in our midsts all these years.
I am. Right now. :D
Come up for the ESSE next year (http://www.facebook.com/CAP.ESSE (http://www.facebook.com/CAP.ESSE)) and we can talk ALLLLL about it!
Cheers!
-Ed
EDWARD A. BOS, Maj, CAP
Chairman
Anchorage Bowl GSAR Group
http://anchoragegsar.wordpress.com (http://anchoragegsar.wordpress.com)
Quote from: SarDragon on December 31, 2011, 08:40:53 AM
Gall's (http://www.galls.com/search?searchaction=1&category=Jackets+%26+Outerwear&path=All+Products%2f%2f%2f%2fUserSearch%3dVenture_id%3d503185%2f%2f%2f%2fApparel+%26+Uniforms) has some great hi-vis outer wear.
That's good stuff. I'm partial to Blaze Orange with retro-reflective trim, vs the chartreuse green with reflective trim. This comes from some test photos I've seen, taken from the air & looking at groups in the two different colors in similar environments. In nearly every setting, the orange stood out much better than the green.
QuoteTake the Oath
I'm referencing the cadets who want to run around and play Air Force with little sense of what it actually takes to serve.
I'm not implying that I know that honor.
Have we thought about the individual cost to members to make the switch to ABU's?
$40 - Blouse
$40 - pants
$8 - T-shirt
$10 - Cover
$9 - belt
$100-150 - boots
$10 - socks
total cost: $210-260
double that to be equipped for an NCSA
Add to that the unit, wing, and flag patches that wont be used.
Cost probably won't be much of a factor since it is extremely likely that there will be a long phase out period. New folks won't notice much of a difference and the folks that have been in for a while will either have quit or need a new uniform anyway by the time they're required. In the meantime they could still wear BDUs.
Why did I let myself get sucked back into a thread rehashing the same exact things covered in this thread that was active as of just a few weeks ago?
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13035.0 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13035.0)
Someone closing in on 10K posts should know better.
Quote from: RiverAux on December 31, 2011, 04:02:58 PM
Why did I let myself get sucked back into a thread rehashing the same exact things covered in this thread that was active as of just a few weeks ago?
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13035.0 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13035.0)
Someone closing in on 10K posts should know better.
You're a glutton for punishment? >:D
If people are willing to pay for a new uniform that is atleast $200, than why stop them? If you have cadets running around just trying to play USAF, kick them out until they mature and are willing to do something, or let them burn out within a year. It is pretty simple really. I think some people are not appreciating the honor of being in the USAF Aux, which implies we are in one shape or another, a part of the USAF family. I am proud to tie up my put on my uniforms and represent. If the USAF was worried about kids acting like them, then the cadet programs would not exsist. When we don our uniforms, we are to act just as proffesional has any airman should, to adhere to our core values, to be the example for people looking in, and to be leaders.
Quote from: SABRE17 on December 31, 2011, 03:42:49 PM
$40 - Blouse
$40 - pants
$8 - T-shirt
$10 - Cover
$9 - belt
$100-150 - boots
$10 - socks
total cost: $210-260
double that to be equipped for an NCSA
One wouldn't need to double the total to be equipped for an NCSA. I mean, who needs two covers, two belts, and two pairs of boots ;D.
Based on your approximation, two sets of ABU's would cost about $100 more, for another blouse, pair of pants, t-shirt, and socks. ;)
Quote from: Littleguy on December 31, 2011, 04:45:19 PM
If people are willing to pay for a new uniform that is atleast $200, than why stop them? If you have cadets running around just trying to play USAF, kick them out until they mature and are willing to do something, or let them burn out within a year. It is pretty simple really. I think some people are not appreciating the honor of being in the USAF Aux, which implies we are in one shape or another, a part of the USAF family. I am proud to tie up my put on my uniforms and represent. If the USAF was worried about kids acting like them, then the cadet programs would not exsist. When we don our uniforms, we are to act just as proffesional has any airman should, to adhere to our core values, to be the example for people looking in, and to be leaders.
You miss the point.
"playing USAF" is the hook.
Twelve year olds do not join CAP to become productive leaders and good citizens. That is why us CP types want them to join.
We hook them with the uniform and the fun stuff....we let them run around the woods doing ES stuff, march up and down the square, shoot rockets off....and in the mean time we are actually training them to be leaders and citizens.
I don't think it is the cadets who the USAF is worried about. It is the guys wearing officer ranks that give the USAF coniptions.
Also please note "act just as proffesional has (sic) any airman"......have you supervised airman lately? 8)
Quote from: HGjunkie on December 31, 2011, 07:44:00 AM
Also, yada yada RM wants us all in red uniforms etc...
Yes...to look like a cross between the Salvation Army and the Red Cross.
Quote from: titanII on December 31, 2011, 04:49:28 PM
Quote from: SABRE17 on December 31, 2011, 03:42:49 PM
$40 - Blouse
$40 - pants
$8 - T-shirt
$10 - Cover
$9 - belt
$100-150 - boots
$10 - socks
total cost: $210-260
double that to be equipped for an NCSA
One wouldn't need to double the total to be equipped for an NCSA. I mean, who needs two covers, two belts, and two pairs of boots ;D.
Based on your approximation, two sets of ABU's would cost about $100 more, for another blouse, pair of pants, t-shirt, and socks. ;)
Remember it isn't normally 70 degree in the Great State & Wing of Massachusetts in January 2011, so you are also going to have to buy an outer coat. The all purpose weather one is about $150.00, and the fleece is around $70.00. So that will add another $220.00. That's a lot of lawns cutting & driveways/side walks snow shoveling to do ;)
RM
While "playing Air Force" may be the 'hook' for most cadets and some seniors, it is, to be brutally honest, false advertising!
Most of the Air Force doesn't even know we exist.
Many of those that do wish:
1) that there was no CAP
OR
2) that none of us wore USAF type uniforms
OR
3) that only cadets wore USAF type uniforms, sort of AFJROTC where the schools don't sponsor the program
Now, we shouldn't feel bad about this, because by and large the Air Force leadership (primarily 'rated' officers) feels inordinately superior to mere mortals lacking silver wings...even those holding the same or higher grade in the Air Force itself!
Deny it all you wish; I've observed these folks for 40 plus years...I don't question their patriotism, I appreciate their service and dedication -- but that is the reality of the social dynamic with the organization.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on December 31, 2011, 07:35:06 PM
Quote from: titanII on December 31, 2011, 04:49:28 PM
Quote from: SABRE17 on December 31, 2011, 03:42:49 PM
$40 - Blouse
$40 - pants
$8 - T-shirt
$10 - Cover
$9 - belt
$100-150 - boots
$10 - socks
total cost: $210-260
double that to be equipped for an NCSA
One wouldn't need to double the total to be equipped for an NCSA. I mean, who needs two covers, two belts, and two pairs of boots ;D.
Based on your approximation, two sets of ABU's would cost about $100 more, for another blouse, pair of pants, t-shirt, and socks. ;)
Remember it isn't normally 70 degree in the Great State & Wing of Massachusetts in January 2011, so you are also going to have to buy an outer coat. The all purpose weather one is about $150.00, and the fleece is around $70.00. So that will add another $220.00. That's a lot of lawns cutting & driveways/side walks snow shoveling to do ;)
RM
Well...even if we go comprable grade civilian wear....you are going to have to pay the same....so this argument is a little weak.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on December 31, 2011, 08:15:25 PM
While "playing Air Force" may be the 'hook' for most cadets and some seniors, it is, to be brutally honest, false advertising!
Most of the Air Force doesn't even know we exist.
Many of those that do wish:
1) that there was no CAP
OR
2) that none of us wore USAF type uniforms
OR
3) that only cadets wore USAF type uniforms, sort of AFJROTC where the schools don't sponsor the program
Now, we shouldn't feel bad about this, because by and large the Air Force leadership (primarily 'rated' officers) feels inordinately superior to mere mortals lacking silver wings...even those holding the same or higher grade in the Air Force itself!
Deny it all you wish; I've observed these folks for 40 plus years...I don't question their patriotism, I appreciate their service and dedication -- but that is the reality of the social dynamic with the organization.
Got to disagree on all three of your points.
While there are some in the USAF who don't want us/don't want us to wear uniforms/only want cadets to wear the uniform......I have to say that those are far and few between compared to the absolute majority of those AD USAF types that know we exists...who support us 100% and wonder why we wear gray ranks and blue name tapes.
While it's easy to point the finger at someone else and complain sometimes one needs to remember why things were done in the first place. When I joined back in 94 it was blue plates and berry boards for SM then went to the greys. I wore pin on rank and insignia because it was easier to swap out, when I changed units I sewed my rank and insignia on. I see a lot of the AF doesn't know about us or doesn't want us etc. But how much of this is directly the AFs doing? Any recall Cal Worthington especially those here in CA? He sold himself to the public and became a household name, that may be what CAP has to do sell itself. I know some of the members who have been around for awhile know what led to the berry boards coming and etc. The AF has said no to ABUs for the time being however that may change in the future. While I do not agree with the swap from BDUs to ABUs it was told to us that it happened because the Army owned the rights to the woodland pattern, how much of that is truth idk but the change happened.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 31, 2011, 06:58:22 PMI don't think it is the cadets who the USAF is worried about. It is the guys wearing officer ranks that give the USAF coniptions.
Agreed. Even ones wearing the alternates that many members consider second class uniforms don't conduct or dress themselves in a manner considered professional. That needs work. I think a lot of that would be served with better training in the beginning. Don't let the professionalism develop, train for it from the beginning.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 31, 2011, 06:58:22 PMAlso please note "act just as proffesional has (sic) any airman"......have you supervised airman lately? 8)
Or soldiers, or junior enlisted Navy, or new Marines, or new Coasties (don't know what they call their newbies.
I would say that many of my cadets act more mature than a lot of the soldiers I supervise.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on December 31, 2011, 07:35:06 PM
Remember it isn't normally 70 degree in the Great State & Wing of Massachusetts in January 2011, so you are also going to have to buy an outer coat. The all purpose weather one is about $150.00, and the fleece is around $70.00. So that will add another $220.00. That's a lot of lawns cutting & driveways/side walks snow shoveling to do ;)
RM
Granted, if one were to have a complete uniform...
But strictly speaking an outer coat isn't an absolutely necessary item to own A.) because not everybody lives in a cold climate and B.) because civilian jackets are 100% allowed over the uniform when zipped all the way up.
But I agree, in a perfect world, we'd all have field jackets.
Quote from: titanII on December 31, 2011, 11:22:29 PM...civilian jackets are 100% allowed over the uniform when zipped all the way up.
No, they aren't. That's not how this works. It's 100% correct, or you're doing it wrong.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 31, 2011, 11:30:31 PM
Quote from: titanII on December 31, 2011, 11:22:29 PM...civilian jackets are 100% allowed over the uniform when zipped all the way up.
No, they aren't. That's not how this works. It's 100% correct, or you're doing it wrong.
Well again the "reality" versus "fantasy" is that cadets (as well as seniors) wear civilian jackets with their CAP AF type uniforms. Check out the Color Guard Competition in one of the Rocky mountain states posted on "Volunteer Now" and it clearly shows the cadets outside in uniform with civilian jackets (that are a variety of types). No one plans on freezing up here in the northeast IF they don't have the money to buy a proper military outer wear jacket.
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on December 31, 2011, 11:50:00 PMNo one plans on freezing up here in the northeast IF they don't have the money to buy a proper military outer wear jacket.
Then they should not be wearing the USAF-style uniform, especially senior members.
This is the kind of thing that drives those of us who can read 39-1 crazy - people who choose to just make things up for convenience.
I understand the typical
cadet "cash-flow waiver", fine (as long as it isn't a hello-kitty A2), they have few choices and are unlikely to interact with
anyone in a leadership or representative capacity, but
seniors have
zero excuse, especially when you consider the
rules are clear and seniors have several choices.
Same goes for anyone wearing a green flight jacket over their blues "because it is all I have", or are out of grooming but "can't afford a new uniform".
The rules aren't different because of that, and don't mistake nothing being said to the offender as not noticing.
People notice. People that matter.
Okay....I'm done with this!
I guess we can only do CAP in the "fair" months.
>:(
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on December 31, 2011, 07:35:06 PM
Quote from: titanII on December 31, 2011, 04:49:28 PM
Quote from: SABRE17 on December 31, 2011, 03:42:49 PM
$40 - Blouse
$40 - pants
$8 - T-shirt
$10 - Cover
$9 - belt
$100-150 - boots
$10 - socks
total cost: $210-260
double that to be equipped for an NCSA
One wouldn't need to double the total to be equipped for an NCSA. I mean, who needs two covers, two belts, and two pairs of boots ;D.
Based on your approximation, two sets of ABU's would cost about $100 more, for another blouse, pair of pants, t-shirt, and socks. ;)
Remember it isn't normally 70 degree in the Great State & Wing of Massachusetts in January 2011, so you are also going to have to buy an outer coat. The all purpose weather one is about $150.00, and the fleece is around $70.00. So that will add another $220.00. That's a lot of lawns cutting & driveways/side walks snow shoveling to do ;)
RM
just to be accurate, Massachusetts is not a state. I know how uptight you are about accuracy and all.....
That's right we are a Commonwealth
Quote from: sab163 on January 01, 2012, 01:20:50 AM
That's right we are a Commonwealth
You bet we are... but we'll consider ourselves a state for the purpose of the argument ;) ;D.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 31, 2011, 11:30:31 PM
No, they aren't. That's not how this works. It's 100% correct, or you're doing it wrong.
Oh, I was led to believe that that was the rule... you could wear a civvie jacket over your uniform if it was zipped all the way up. I don't mean to be snarky, but could you please cite where 39-1 says this is not allowed? Also, I'm wondering what you suggest members/cadets should do if they don't own a field jacket, because none are available...
If it's not specifically authorized in the regulations, it's not allowed.
So the question is, where does 39-1 authorize this?
Quote from: titanII on January 01, 2012, 01:56:03 AM
Oh, I was led to believe that that was the rule... you could wear a civvie jacket over your uniform if it was zipped all the way up. I don't mean to be snarky, but could you please cite where 39-1 says this is not allowed? Also, I'm wondering what you suggest members/cadets should do if they don't own a field jacket, because none are available...
Quote from: CAPM 39-1 Sec 1-1
COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. Any variation from this publication is not authorized. Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear.
There are some that would say that we can't preclude people from wearing the uniform especially in cold environments where the price of the jacket makes it unattainable for some. Others would say that if you can't wear the uniform correctly, don't wear it at all. I don't advocate either way because I would suggest knowing your command climate. Some Commanders may allow it citing a safety issue, others may not. But you asked where in the regulation it says you can't do it...so there it is.
Some Commanders who allow the alternative while meaning well provide ammunition to those who say we should switch to all corporate uniforms because members still choose to wear the uniform incorrectly.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on December 31, 2011, 08:15:25 PM
Most of the Air Force doesn't even know we exist.
Many of those that do wish:
1) that there was no CAP
2) that none of us wore USAF type uniforms
3) that only cadets wore USAF type uniforms, sort of AFJROTC where the schools don't sponsor the program
Now, we shouldn't feel bad about this, because by and large the Air Force leadership (primarily 'rated' officers) feels inordinately superior to mere mortals lacking silver wings...even those holding the same or higher grade in the Air Force itself!
Deny it all you wish; I've observed these folks for 40 plus years...I don't question their patriotism, I appreciate their service and dedication -- but that is the reality of the social dynamic with the organization.
Unfortunately, I have to concur with Zig-Zag on most points.
I joined in 1993, just after berry boards but still with blue plates and "CAP" collar brass.
I remember then being treated fairly well by the AF on their bases.
Over the years it's deteriorated...slowly and YMMV, but it
has happened.
I never see the brass at the top who laud us with superlatives, but I
have heard the barely-veiled cracks of "those CAP wannabes" over the years. Not as much from older NCO's, ANG and AFRES as from young AD airmen. One thing I thoroughly dislike on the CAP side is the inference that when we get that treatment from the Air Force we should just "suck it up" and not say anything back "in the interest of building better relations with the AF." Bravo Sierra! Some E-2 almost young enough to be my
grandson (I don't find that kind of attitude as much from female Airmen, incidentally) without 1/10 of my life experience calls me a "wannabe" he is going to be told in no uncertain terms that I am
not and that with
his attitude
he is dishonouring the uniform he wears. I'm not telling him Captain to Airman; I'm telling him late-middle-age adult to young kid.
It's true that over the years CAP has made some egregious mistakes viz. our relationship with the Air Force, but it is bloody ludicrous that we should still be in the mode of "thank you sir may I have another" accepting punishment for it. A lot of the people who have made those mistakes are no longer associated with CAP!
It's also true that I have gotten a few nice warm fuzzies from AF personnel over the years...again, mostly older types and mostly reserve component. It is a sad truism that we often get better treatment (in my experience) from the other four services than from our so-called "parent" service. Again, I'm not talking people with loads of stars and fruit salad; I'm talking down where the rubber meets the road.
In my opinion, based on my experience, there is really nothing more
we can do to improve the relationship. It is illogical in a relationship to improve that relationship when only one side of it wants the improvement.
I would not at all be surprised that ABU's or whatever the AF decides to wear ends up on JROTC, ROTC and SDF Air Wings before, if ever, on us. It seems like we've become the "thing in the basement to hide" to much of the AF. Those who have seen
Harold And Kumar Escape From Guantanamo Bay will know what I mean.
There are those on the CAP side who say "we need to 'sell' ourselves" to the AF. Nertz, as Frank Burns would say. If they don't know about us or our capabilities after all the years of being their Auxiliary, there's no way we can do it ourselves.
Quote from: SARDOC on January 01, 2012, 02:31:47 AM
Quote from: CAPM 39-1 Sec 1-1
COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. Any variation from this publication is not authorized. Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear.
There are some that would say that we can't preclude people from wearing the uniform especially in cold environments where the price of the jacket makes it unattainable for some. Others would say that if you can't wear the uniform correctly, don't wear it at all. I don't advocate either way because I would suggest knowing your command climate. Some Commanders may allow it citing a safety issue, others may not. But you asked where in the regulation it says you can't do it...so there it is.
Some Commanders who allow the alternative while meaning well provide ammunition to those who say we should switch to all corporate uniforms because members still choose to wear the uniform incorrectly.
I think the wear of non military jackets/coats is what I see most. Again, I think one has to be realistic on this. If it's cold, cadets are not issued jackets for the blues sent to them as part of their membership. Adult members financially may also have some challenges and may be issued blues by the squadron. Even with BDU's there just might not be an inexpensive source to buy these jackets.
Field conditions require protective clothing and civilian type clothing may very well provide the best cost effective protection. I'd rather see some sort of vest(s) (orange as well as perhaps another color (blue with some red/white lettering) and perhaps also a unit/wing patch option)) that could be placed over civilian outer wear which readily identifies the individual as being a member of
Civil Air Patrol. I think easy visual identification is important from a public relations and emergency services support standpoint.
I don't think that on the uniform regulations that the intention of cadets or seniors is to purposely violate with a 'I don't care' attitude, but rather to try to comply as best as they can, within the limits imposed by their current economic situation. :(
RM
(http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/thumb/7/73/JeanLucPicardFacepalm.jpg/618px-JeanLucPicardFacepalm.jpg)
Quote from: titanII on January 01, 2012, 01:56:03 AMAlso, I'm wondering what you suggest members/cadets should do if they don't own a field jacket, because none are available...
Buy one or pick a different uniform.
I don't understand why people say outerwear is so friggin expensive... I got a Gore-Tex Generation 1 shell for $60 at an Army-Navy store in the Desert of New Mexico....
Quote from: HGjunkie on January 01, 2012, 07:32:13 PM
I don't understand why people say outerwear is so friggin expensive... I got a Gore-Tex Generation 1 shell for $60 at an Army-Navy store in the Desert of New Mexico....
My problem is not that it's expensive- I can afford one- just that I haven't been able to find one anywhere.
Quote from: titanII on January 01, 2012, 07:45:21 PM
Quote from: HGjunkie on January 01, 2012, 07:32:13 PM
I don't understand why people say outerwear is so friggin expensive... I got a Gore-Tex Generation 1 shell for $60 at an Army-Navy store in the Desert of New Mexico....
My problem is not that it's expensive- I can afford one- just that I haven't been able to find one anywhere.
Are you looking for a jacket? I have a spare field jacket I'll sell for a low price if you need one.
Quote from: titanII on January 01, 2012, 07:45:21 PM
Quote from: HGjunkie on January 01, 2012, 07:32:13 PM
I don't understand why people say outerwear is so friggin expensive... I got a Gore-Tex Generation 1 shell for $60 at an Army-Navy store in the Desert of New Mexico....
My problem is not that it's expensive- I can afford one- just that I haven't been able to find one anywhere.
3500+ hits on ebay (granted not all are usable and there's plenty of liners)
Lots under $20 shipped.
1900+ on Google Shopper (same caveats).
Lets look at this realistically. How long is someone going to spend outside in the freezing cold on a meeting night anyway? My squadron just has everyone inside learning things on blues nights, if it is too cold out and people don't have jackets. My squadron is extremely lucky to have been given a huge pile of gore-tex jackets from the local ANG wing, so anybody who doesn't bring them or leave them in their lockers is at fault, and we will not allow people to wear civilian outerwear, either. I doubt anyone is going to get hypothermia from being cold for all of two seconds. With the BDU's, for other squadrons, just have cadets buy a pair of cheap thermals. If it is so cold outside you need to wear multiple layers to stay warm, than something tells me you shouldn't be outside. If you want to train cadets in ES that night, have them wear warm civies.
Shoot, I need to sell my M-60 now that I think about it...
Quote from: HGjunkie on January 01, 2012, 08:08:10 PM
Shoot, I need to sell my M-60 now that I think about it...
You need to sell your tank or your belt fed machine gun!?!?
;)
Quote from: lordmonar on January 01, 2012, 08:23:59 PM
Quote from: HGjunkie on January 01, 2012, 08:08:10 PM
Shoot, I need to sell my M-60 now that I think about it...
You need to sell your tank or your belt fed machine gun!?!?
;)
Totally meant M-65, and had a brain fart. 8)
Quote from: Littleguy on January 01, 2012, 07:56:31 PM
Are you looking for a jacket? I have a spare field jacket I'll sell for a low price if you need one.
Thanks for the offer, but there's a chance I might get one for free with the whole "free BDU drive" thing going on. So I'll hold off until then.
Quote from: HGjunkie on January 01, 2012, 08:08:10 PM
Shoot, I need to sell my M-60 now that I think about it...
Dibs on the tank! Do you take Paypal? ;)
say... is there an M60 mounted on the M60? ;D
Quote from: Al Sayre on January 01, 2012, 10:52:13 PM
Quote from: HGjunkie on January 01, 2012, 08:08:10 PM
Shoot, I need to sell my M-60 now that I think about it...
Dibs on the tank! Do you take Paypal? ;)
Sure! You want that priority or UPS overnight? ;D
Back to the subject at hand....
QuoteDoD policy prevents the transfer, donation, and sale of digitized camouflage pattern uniforms to anyone outside the USAF with very few exceptions. Unfortunately Civil Air Patrol is not one of the exceptions. This prohibition is necessary to protect the unique technologies used in developing the uniform.
This strikes me as a typical "we don't want you to know the real reason, so we'll give you the 'its classified' type answer in the hopes no one will question it" type of answer.
I say this because I can go to USCav and outfit myself with the ABU, if I wanted. Perhaps it doesn't have all the super-duper sekret squirrel type stuff the "official issue" stuff does, but we don't need that stuff anyway. If USAF doesn't want us to have the uper-duper sekret squirrel version, fine. Why prohibit us from obtaining them commercially? It's because someone at the top (CAP-USAF, NHQ, or both) doesn't want CAP in that uniform and doesn't want their reasoning to be public record.
Quote from: Phillip on January 02, 2012, 01:30:08 AM
Back to the subject at hand....
QuoteDoD policy prevents the transfer, donation, and sale of digitized camouflage pattern uniforms to anyone outside the USAF with very few exceptions. Unfortunately Civil Air Patrol is not one of the exceptions. This prohibition is necessary to protect the unique technologies used in developing the uniform.
This strikes me as a typical "we don't want you to know the real reason, so we'll give you the 'its classified' type answer in the hopes no one will question it" type of answer.
These aren't the droids you're looking for.
Quote from: Phillip on January 02, 2012, 01:30:08 AM
Why prohibit us from obtaining them commercially? It's because someone at the top (CAP-USAF, NHQ, or both) doesn't want CAP in that uniform and doesn't want their reasoning to be public record.
More of the "thank you sir may I have another?" (think Kevin Bacon in
Animal House) that we've been undergoing ever since the berry boards days...
It will happen when it is supposed to happen. All the debating and talking about it in the world isn't going to speed things up. What we need to focus on is the ability to do our jobs better, making sure we are trained to do our jobs to the best of our ability and working harder to sell our story.
The red-headed stepchild syndrome that I see constantly on this board is very taxing and frankly there's many of us who are sick of it. The ground-pounders and top-brass that I associate with, both active duty and reserve, treat us with respect and appreciation. I'm sure there's always a few bad apples, and realistically it's that way on both sides, but the actions or comments of a few should not determine the attitudes of many. How do we eliminate this? Easy. Encouragement and enforcement. Don't be afraid to encourage the select few that are able to sell our story well, don't be afraid to put those people in front of others to show our strength. Enforcement is what it will take to eliminate the "wanna-be" types and those who choose to not follow the rules, the commanders at ALL LEVELS need to grow a pair and enforce the rules. Plain and simple. Over time, enforcement will "clean up our image" by pushing out those who don't belong here. My two-cents.
Quote from: RickRutledge on January 02, 2012, 06:08:05 PM
The red-headed stepchild syndrome that I see constantly on this board is very taxing and frankly there's many of us who are sick of it.
I hope you haven't had to be on the receiving end of it.
Quote from: RickRutledge on January 02, 2012, 06:08:05 PM
the actions or comments of a few should not determine the attitudes of many.
Agreed 1000%. Now if we can just convince the AF to let bygones be bygones...
I have personally been treated much better by the Army, especially the Army National Guard, personnel that we have worked with than the AF. It actually wouldn't break my heart for the Army to take us on and make us a volunteer component of Army Aviation, but that's not happening.
Quote from: CyBorg on January 02, 2012, 09:27:04 PM
It actually wouldn't break my heart for the Army to take us on and make us a volunteer component of Army Aviation
lol and then we'd argue about whether we are going to switch to ACU's, and then to Multicam or stay with UCP >:D
Quote from: titanII on January 02, 2012, 10:26:11 PM
lol and then we'd argue about whether we are going to switch to ACU's, and then to Multicam or stay with UCP >:D
I don't think there'd be all the messing about and dithering that there has been over ABU's.
of course there would. it is always a knock down drag out whenever a uniform change is desired or suggested and no matter waht happens someone will want something different within 6 months time
Quote from: CyBorg on January 02, 2012, 10:39:06 PM
Quote from: titanII on January 02, 2012, 10:26:11 PM
lol and then we'd argue about whether we are going to switch to ACU's, and then to Multicam or stay with UCP >:D
I don't think there'd be all the messing about and dithering that there has been over ABU's.
Don't underestimate your fellow CAP Talkers! >:D
Multi cam is is only authorized in Afghanistan and not garrison use.
Quote from: abdsp51 on January 03, 2012, 01:55:15 AM
Multi cam is is only authorized in Afghanistan and not garrison use.
Ah well, too bad ;D.
Quote from: CyBorg on January 02, 2012, 09:27:04 PM
I have personally been treated much better by the Army, especially the Army National Guard, personnel that we have worked with than the AF. It actually wouldn't break my heart for the Army to take us on and make us a volunteer component of Army Aviation, but that's not happening.
I agree.
In my years volunteering for CAP, when working with the Army, Army Guard, Air Guard, and heck even the Navy (very rarely) they all seemed to love CAP and respected us with the up most respect. Most of them found it fascinating that the AF has such a large Auxiliary at their disposal.
As to the Army picking up CAP and working with Army Aviation. I think that would be awesome. I also think that would NEVER happen, and we might loose a lot of members but could passably gain a whole lot more or even a whole different mentality of members (good or bad, you choose).
I would only suspect the Army would (overnight) place us in the ACU, change the name to US Army Air Auxiliary or something, and restructure the chain of command and how we operate (like eliminating the cooperate side and the TRIANGLE THINGY). The Army is much larger than the Air Force and may be able to support and/or "carry" us much easier than the Air Force can. Like I said I'm pretty sure Air Force would not let that happen and the Army may not even want us. - - - sorry, got carried away there . . . just my opinions/thoughts.
I hope everyone realizes that the AF has never denied the ABU for CAP. As in never, ever.
If for no other reason than CAP has never actually submitted a request for them.
Really.
The whole polnt of the National Uniform Committee is to develop specific proposals and suggestions for the NB, who will then determine what requests to submit to our AF colleagues.
As I have mentioned in several of the other ABU threads, I have spoken personally with the CAP-USAF commander and multiple AF general officers on this topic, and none of them has hinted, suggested, or intimated in any way that the AF does not want us in ABUs. I'm confident that our AF partners will fairy review any uniform change requests that our NB chooses to submit.
Finally, may I respectfully suggest that the constant "the AF doesn't love us and wants to embarrass us by making us wear silly uniforms" mantra repeated so often here on CAP-Talk is not helpful to our relationship.
And it simply isn't true, no matter how many times anonymous people on the Internet repeat it.
Quote from: Ned on January 03, 2012, 03:52:29 AM
I hope everyone realizes that the AF has never denied the ABU for CAP. As in never, ever.
If for no other reason than CAP has never actually submitted a request for them.
Really.
The whole polnt of the National Uniform Committee is to develop specific proposals and suggestions for the NB, who will then determine what requests to submit to our AF colleagues.
As I have mentioned in several of the other ABU threads, I have spoken personally with the CAP-USAF commander and multiple AF general officers on this topic, and none of them has hinted, suggested, or intimated in any way that the AF does not want us in ABUs. I'm confident that our AF partners will fairy review any uniform change requests that our NB chooses to submit.
Finally, may I respectfully suggest that the constant "the AF doesn't love us and wants to embarrass us by making us wear silly uniforms" mantra repeated so often here on CAP-Talk is not helpful to our relationship.
And it simply isn't true, no matter how many times anonymous people on the Internet repeat it.
+ 1 :)
Quote from: Ned on January 03, 2012, 03:52:29 AM
I hope everyone realizes that the AF has never denied the ABU for CAP. As in never, ever.
If for no other reason than CAP has never actually submitted a request for them.
Really.
If CAP hasn't ever requested the use of the ABU, then where on Earth did the eServices announcement come from?
Quote from: Civil Air Patrol eServices News
Wear of the Airman's Battle Uniform (ABU) 28 Dec 2011
DoD policy prevents the transfer, donation, and sale of digitized camouflage pattern uniforms to anyone outside the USAF with very few exceptions. Unfortunately Civil Air Patrol is not one of the exceptions. This prohibition is necessary to protect the unique technologies used in developing the uniform.
The National Board has placed a hold on all uniform changes pending a review of the entire CAP uniform structure. This review is ongoing by the CAP National Uniform Committee and a draft report will be presented to the Summer National Board Meeting in Baltimore in August 2012. The presentation will be available online via web stream but all CAP members are encouraged to attend.
I don't understand your question.
Nothing in the release suggests to me that CAP has made a request that was denied.
I hang around at a lot of NB, NEC, and BoG meetings. I serve on the National uniform committee. I am deeply involved in CP and have advocated for the ABU for at least cadets to anyone who would listen to me.
And I know that CAP has not (yet) gone through the drill of putting together a package, getting NB approval, and submitting it through CAP-USAF for approval. It simply hasn't happened.
The NB has directed the NUC to consider and recommend (among other things) whether we should officially request ABUs. After receiving the NUC recommendation next summer, the NB may or may not approve making the request to the AF.
It really is that simple.
The authority to make a request to the AF for CAP ABU wear lies with the NB. They have not yet done so. It is their call on if and when to make such a request.
Ned Lee
CAP Enthusiast
QuoteDoD policy prevents the transfer, donation, and sale of digitized camouflage pattern uniforms to anyone outside the USAF with very few exceptions. Unfortunately Civil Air Patrol is not one of the exceptions.
If we're not one of the exceptions, why bother making a formal request?
Quote from: Ned on January 03, 2012, 05:11:15 AM
I don't understand your question.
Nothing in the release suggests to me that CAP has made a request that was denied.
I hang around at a lot of NB, NEC, and BoG meetings. I serve on the National uniform committee. I am deeply involved in CP and have advocated for the ABU for at least cadets to anyone who would listen to me.
And I know that CAP has not (yet) gone through the drill of putting together a package, getting NB approval, and submitting it through CAP-USAF for approval. It simply hasn't happened.
The NB has directed the NUC to consider and recommend (among other things) whether we should officially request ABUs. After receiving the NUC recommendation next summer, the NB may or may not approve making the request to the AF.
It really is that simple.
The authority to make a request to the AF for CAP ABU wear lies with the NB. They have not yet done so. It is their call on if and when to make such a request.
Ned Lee
CAP Enthusiast
Col Lee,
It just seems to me, now knowing your insider's perspective, that the whole announcement on eServices seems to be a strange non-sequitur.
-Ed
Quote from: Ed Bos on January 03, 2012, 06:37:09 AM
Col Lee,
It just seems to me, now knowing your insider's perspective, that the whole announcement on eServices seems to be a strange non-sequitur.
Ed, I believe the random "non-sequitor" nature of that announcement has been the crux of much of this discussion. People 'in-the-know' are going "uh, where did that come from?" even.
Ned, what a spoil-sport you are. What will the uniform-conspiracy-theory people have to talk about now?
Quote from: EMT-83 on January 03, 2012, 01:18:16 PM
Ned, what a spoil-sport you are. What will the uniform-conspiracy-theory people have to talk about now?
Dude!
Have you not figured it out! Ned is the Puppet Master Behind it all! He is just throwing us these bones of information to sow discored into our ranks and make weaker!
Don't fall for the ruse!
The CSU will return!
Viva La Revolution!
>:D
Quote from: Fubar on January 03, 2012, 06:28:00 AM
QuoteDoD policy prevents the transfer, donation, and sale of digitized camouflage pattern uniforms to anyone outside the USAF with very few exceptions. Unfortunately Civil Air Patrol is not one of the exceptions.
If we're not one of the exceptions, why bother making a formal request?
Because IF we ask, then it might be a very simple matter for the DoD to ADD in CAP as one of the approved exceptions.
Regulations and Laws are changed all the time to relax or tighten restrictions on this sort of thing.
Thom
But you don't get it. They don't want to ask :) So they claim moratoriums, meetings, and more meetings need to take place first.
My real concern is Ned's comment (at least for cadets), as in we become a split identity if that's the route they take. :(
...and if all the scuttlebutt about the Air Force ditching ABU's in short order, then the *next* uniform will be in that same "1 per everyone else, they're reserved for BMT graduates as they're rare" for a couple years.. and then this cache of hoarded now cut loose BDU supply runs out and we hear the same thing we hear now.
Secondly, I'd sure be unhappy if they got all these "free" and the Big V gets some of it and still charges premium dollar for them. Though I don't see that happening the way the other discussions have been going.
Quote from: a2capt on January 03, 2012, 03:59:50 PM
My real concern is Ned's comment (at least for cadets), as in we become a split identity if that's the route they take. :(
...and if all the scuttlebutt about the Air Force ditching ABU's in short order, then the *next* uniform will be in that same "1 per everyone else, they're reserved for BMT graduates as they're rare" for a couple years.. and then this cache of hoarded now cut loose BDU supply runs out and we hear the same thing we hear now.
The one thing we know for certain is that uniforms change over time.
And I know for certain that the AF will at some point move away from ABUs. Just as they have for every single other uniform they have ever worn since 1946. And no one knows when that will be. It could be next year. It could be 2025. Or even later. But I can only agree that at some point the USAF will change their uniforms.
From the CP perspective, it is important for our cadets to be wearing an AF-style uniform. Sure, we can live with some transitions and wear-out dates, but in the long run, we absolutely need to be in the AF uniform.
And I can certainly see why a lot of folks want us to wait for the "Uniform After ABUs" (UAABUS 8) ). Hey, I pay for my uniforms just like everyone else, and there are three of us in my immediate family in CAP. I know as well each of you that uniform changes cost members money, no matter how we try to mitigate the issue with long wear-out dates.
But no one - and I mean
no one - knows how long ABUs will be worn by our AF partners. We simply cannot afford to wait another two or three years before even submitting the request to see if the ABUs will "stick."
And as a practical matter, we are covered if the ABU is replaced soon. Assuming the NB decides to ask, that request will not even go forward to the AF until some time next fall. The AF has a staff study process they use to review our requests, and given that it will have to start at CAP-USAF and go through the chain from AU all the way to the office of the Chief, we can safely assume that their review will take many months, if not a year.
So if the AF decides to move away from ABUs anytime in the next 18 months to two years, we can simply withdraw our request.
So, requesting ABUs (if that is what the NB chooses to do) is a (very slow) "win-win" for our cadets.
Ned:
Sir, I know you are a CP enthusiast...but why is it so much more important if/when/ever CAP gets the ABU (and honestly, I could care less on that topic) than the rest of us old folk?
Case in point: Cadets are still allowed to wear the old Tony Nelson uniform. We are not. That's an old uniform the cadets get to hang on to, but what I am reading from you is that it is more important that cadets get the new (ABU or successor) uniform.
Quote from: CyBorg on January 03, 2012, 05:21:13 PM
Ned:
Sir, I know you are a CP enthusiast...but why is it so much more important if/when/ever CAP gets the ABU (and honestly, I could care less on that topic) than the rest of us old folk?
I didn't say that, and do not hold that opinion.
I indicated that I was speaking from a CP perspective, which is where I hang my hat as a volunteer National Staff officer. (Obviously, I represent everyone as a BoG guy, but uniforms are not a BoG issue.)
The fact that I believe it is critical for cadets to be in AF-style uniforms does not imply that I do not think it is important for seniors as well.
And I do not think it is helpful to get into whether it is "more important/critical" for one membership class than the other. That path leads to madness.
If you like, you can think of it as a "rising tide raises all boats" kind of situation. CAP has never had "cadet-only" uniforms, and there is no support in the NUC, NB, or NEC to change that situation.
Quote from: Ned on January 03, 2012, 05:55:05 PM
I didn't say that, and do not hold that opinion.
Just asking for clarification, based on my own personal face-to-face interaction with some AF personnel, including one State Director, that openly have stated that CP is the be-all and end-all for CAP, and we oldsters are there just to make sure they get their Mitchell Award so they can get their E-3.
I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. Honestly.
Only scuttlebutt as to changing uniforms has been changing the service dress uniform not the ABU. Chances are the ABU is going to be here for awhile and not changing anytime soon especially with Force Reductions and a reduced operating budget DOD wide.
Dod budget has not been cut. Only the percentage increase has been lessened. For example, there is to be a 17% increase in the budget, but it gets amended to 12%. Congress calls that a 5% budget cut. They still get more than last year.
Quote from: RogueLeader on January 03, 2012, 09:06:52 PM
Dod budget has not been cut. Only the percentage increase has been lessened. For example, there is to be a 17% increase in the budget, but it gets amended to 12%. Congress calls that a 5% budget cut. They still get more than last year.
:clap: :clap: :clap:
Quote from: RogueLeader on January 03, 2012, 09:06:52 PM
Dod budget has not been cut. Only the percentage increase has been lessened. For example, there is to be a 17% increase in the budget, but it gets amended to 12%. Congress calls that a 5% budget cut. They still get more than last year.
Wow, I had budgeted for a 55% raise this year, only got 4%, so I guess I took an 21% pay cut! :o
In order to sacrifice more next year, I've decided to budget for a 50% raise next year...ya gotta make sacrifices, donchaknow.
Quote from: JeffDG on January 03, 2012, 09:19:52 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on January 03, 2012, 09:06:52 PM
Dod budget has not been cut. Only the percentage increase has been lessened. For example, there is to be a 17% increase in the budget, but it gets amended to 12%. Congress calls that a 5% budget cut. They still get more than last year.
Wow, I had budgeted for a 55% raise this year, only got 4%, so I guess I took an 21% pay cut! :o
In order to sacrifice more next year, I've decided to budget for a 50% raise next year...ya gotta make sacrifices, donchaknow.
I think that's a 31% pay cut, but that's just math. ;)
Quote from: RogueLeader on January 03, 2012, 09:36:25 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on January 03, 2012, 09:19:52 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on January 03, 2012, 09:06:52 PM
Dod budget has not been cut. Only the percentage increase has been lessened. For example, there is to be a 17% increase in the budget, but it gets amended to 12%. Congress calls that a 5% budget cut. They still get more than last year.
Wow, I had budgeted for a 55% raise this year, only got 4%, so I guess I took an 21% pay cut! :o
In order to sacrifice more next year, I've decided to budget for a 50% raise next year...ya gotta make sacrifices, donchaknow.
I think that's a 31% pay cut, but that's just math. ;)
Oops...meant 25%...and for the record, what I wrote would work out to a 51% pay cut, not 31%
For bofyas - 55 - 4 = 51.
Doing math like that with percentages is deceptive, anyway, because of the way the multiplications work. Which number are you taking a percentage of, the lower figure, or the larger one?
E.g. adding a 25% increase, then reducing it to the original figure onkly gives you a 20% decrease.
100 + 25% (25) = 125
25 = 20% of 125
Working with the numbers above, and starting with 100, we get:
100 + 17% = 117
117 - 5% = 111.15, not 112
NEXT ITEM FOR DEBATE:
(http://www.afspc.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/080327-F-7787L-011.jpg)
The proposed USAF change to the Service Dress -- away from our McPeak Style we currently have (Seniors).
The USAF has a hold on any uniform changes (much like us) and they haven't moved an inch since 2009 on it. BUT, it most likely will happen in the next few years....
**LET THE MOANING AND GROANING BEGIN***
Quote from: RickRutledge on January 03, 2012, 10:02:43 PM
NEXT ITEM FOR DEBATE:
(http://www.afspc.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/080327-F-7787L-011.jpg)
The proposed USAF change to the Service Dress -- away from our McPeak Style we currently have (Seniors).
The USAF has a hold on any uniform changes (much like us) and they haven't moved an inch since 2009 on it. BUT, it most likely will happen in the next few years....
**LET THE MOANING AND GROANING BEGIN***
Olde news there guy. GEN Swartz has said that the Service Dress Uniform will not change while he is the Chief of Staff.
The service has more pressing issues to deal with. Things like the skyrocketing divorce rate and things like that.
I thought the AF had put the kibosh on any changes to the service dress, including this one:
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQGHW6sXj4hp2MCK5P5DxK9HHrxejiKLJhWzR7v8Ye122mX9nHaqv-ggRND)
I do have to say I like it a lot better than the McPeak/Fogleman "business suit;" it's like the old pinks-and-greens in cut.
It reminds me a little of the RAAF (which is RAF-cut but much darker blue), except theirs doesn't have epaulettes:
(http://editthis.info/images/worldatplay/4/44/ServiceDressRAAF.jpg)
Awesome. Glad I posted it.
In all seriousness, we need to find something else to debate.
Okay, how about the next person who starts another uniform thread on CAPTalk will be drawn and quartered. >:D
But what will the uniform of the day be for the drawing and quartering? ???
Jack
Quote from: CyBorg on January 03, 2012, 10:13:36 PM
It reminds me a little of the RAAF (which is RAF-cut but much darker blue), except theirs doesn't have epaulettes:
(http://editthis.info/images/worldatplay/4/44/ServiceDressRAAF.jpg)
You know what I mean? Their uniform doesn't even have epaulets and this, that and everything else...
Actually budget has been cut and it's been felt at all levels. Civilian/military workers are getting cut, vehicle fleets are being reduced and some programs are/have been terminated. But to the thread there has been no official word on the ABU being ditched, the only that was mentioned was the introduction of a lighter weight version being made available to all, and trying to redesign the the service uniform.
Quote from: NIN on January 04, 2012, 02:23:18 AM
You know what I mean? Their uniform doesn't even have epaulets and this, that and everything else...
No, sir, what you mean flew right past me. ???
Colonel Jack: The UOD for drawing and quartering will of course be Mess Dress (think about it). :P
Quote from: CyBorg on January 04, 2012, 03:12:06 AM
Quote from: NIN on January 04, 2012, 02:23:18 AM
You know what I mean? Their uniform doesn't even have epaulets and this, that and everything else...
No, sir, what you mean flew right past me. ???
Colonel Jack: The UOD for drawing and quartering will of course be Mess Dress (think about it). :P
Armstrong & Miller - WWII RAF Sketch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwNQf08Kxsw#)
Quote from: PHall on January 03, 2012, 10:09:37 PM
Quote from: RickRutledge on January 03, 2012, 10:02:43 PM
NEXT ITEM FOR DEBATE:
(http://www.afspc.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/080327-F-7787L-011.jpg)
The proposed USAF change to the Service Dress -- away from our McPeak Style we currently have (Seniors).
The USAF has a hold on any uniform changes (much like us) and they haven't moved an inch since 2009 on it. BUT, it most likely will happen in the next few years....
**LET THE MOANING AND GROANING BEGIN***
Olde news there guy. GEN Swartz has said that the Service Dress Uniform will not change while he is the Chief of Staff.
The service has more pressing issues to deal with. Things like the skyrocketing divorce rate and things like that.
I've seen it before but its definitely a huge improvement in my opinion. I would be an early adopter of that uniform. The McPeak coat was and always will be lame. I'm still not sure why he felt we needed to look more like the navy... or an airline pilot.... or just a business suit in general.
That belt would look sharp if you had the waistline for it and even if you don't at least it looks more military in style.
The belt is a huge tailoring problem. Not everyone's waist is at the same place on their body, and it it's not in the right place on the coat, it looks like crap.
They've adopted (stolen) the belt from the USMC
Did the USMC patent belts :o
I think they pretty much copied an old Army service coat and made it in blue. Which is why its a heritage coat thingy.
Quote from: MSG Mac on January 04, 2012, 05:29:50 AM
They've adopted (stolen) the belt from the USMC
From the 1930's ?
It is basically a blue version of the standard army dress.
^^What he said.
(http://www.alliedflightgear.com/898_9872.JPG-for-web-large.jpg)
(http://www.history.army.mil/books/wac/images/color9.jpg)
I really, really like those uniforms and it wouldn't break my heart one bit if CAP were authorised to go back to them.
It makes me think of hotshot pilots in the ETO with Glenn Miller in the background.
I know many of you have your own opinions on the matter, but I, having served in the RM, only go by written policy. Thus, as far as I see it, here's the situation:
1. NHQ is at this time not willing to request ABU's for CAP members based on a mentioned Department of Defense policy that restricts digital uniform wear/distribution.
2. That the policy mentioned above is NOT a Department of the Air Force policy, but a Department of Defense policy (even the SECAF has his superiors.)
3. That putting in a request with the Air Force would not allow the Air Force to consider the matter until the above policy has been changed since the decision is made at a level above.
The one thing I cannot find is the actual policy from the DoD. That makes me (and I'm sure many others) wonder if there is such a policy or if it was made up or misunderstood. Why can't NHQ simply quote or link us to the policy so we can all accept it as a regulation?
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 12, 2012, 07:02:52 PMThe one thing I cannot find is the actual policy from the DoD. That makes me (and I'm sure many others) wonder if there is such a policy or if it was made up or misunderstood. Why can't NHQ simply quote or link us to the policy so we can all accept it as a regulation?
Because it don't exist. If it does exist then there are many companies out there (including the prime contractor) out there willfully violating it!
Like I said before.....say Yes, No, Maybe Later.....but don't blow sunshine up my butt.
I too was in the military and I too will follow direction.....but don't "quote" a reg if it don't exist....gone toe to toe with many an QC/IG/ORI inspector....ate humble pie a lot....but won a lot too.
The nearest thing I could find was this: http://w3.calema.ca.gov/WebPage/oeswebsite.nsf/ClientOESFileLibrary/CCDPP/ (http://w3.calema.ca.gov/WebPage/oeswebsite.nsf/ClientOESFileLibrary/CCDPP/)$file/Combat%20Uniforms.pdf
...which is essentially DRMO instructions in regards to combat uniforms (dated 2008).
CAP is specifically called out as an authorized recipient for BDUs, (contrary to the belief for years of many people), but ABU's have a much
tighter DRMO authorization and it doesn't include CAP, other branches, or law enforcement.
A DRMO prohibition is not the same thing as a DOD restriction against the uniform's wear by non-USAF personnel, it just means we can't get used ones free / cheap.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 12, 2012, 07:24:16 PM
The nearest thing I could find was this: http://w3.calema.ca.gov/WebPage/oeswebsite.nsf/ClientOESFileLibrary/CCDPP/ (http://w3.calema.ca.gov/WebPage/oeswebsite.nsf/ClientOESFileLibrary/CCDPP/)$file/Combat%20Uniforms.pdf
...which is essentially DRMO instructions in regards to combat uniforms (dated 2008).
CAP is specifically called out as an authorized recipient for BDUs, (contrary to the belief for years of many people), but ABU's have a much
tighter DRMO authorization and it doesn't include CAP, other branches, or law enforcement.
A DRMO prohibition is not the same thing as a DOD restriction against the uniform's wear by non-USAF personnel, it just means we can't get used ones free / cheap.
Well... it could be that someone overly eager interpreted the DRMO regulation to be too broad in scope or that we simply can't find some new policy. The problem is that we don't know and we need to force NHQ to show us.
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 12, 2012, 07:29:53 PM
The problem is that we don't know and we need to force NHQ to show us.
Wake me when that happens...
Quote from: Tim Medeiros on December 28, 2011, 10:52:26 PM
Surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet.
Quote
Wear of the Airman's Battle Uniform (ABU): DoD policy prevents the transfer, donation, and sale of digitized camouflage pattern uniforms to anyone outside the USAF with very few exceptions. Unfortunately Civil Air Patrol is not one of the exceptions. This prohibition is necessary to protect the unique technologies used in developing the uniform.
The National Board has placed a hold on all uniform changes pending a review of the entire CAP uniform structure. This review is ongoing by the CAP National Uniform Committee and a draft report will be presented to the Summer National Board Meeting in Baltimore in August 2012. The presentation will be available online via web stream but all CAP members are encouraged to attend.
I bought mine brand new from US Patriot Tactical and I am not military. I am just a civilian in CAP. The DoD makes it sound like nobody is allowed to buy them except if you are in the USAF.
Quote from: Basher on January 12, 2012, 11:22:38 PM
Quote from: Tim Medeiros on December 28, 2011, 10:52:26 PM
Surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet.
Quote
Wear of the Airman's Battle Uniform (ABU): DoD policy prevents the transfer, donation, and sale of digitized camouflage pattern uniforms to anyone outside the USAF with very few exceptions. Unfortunately Civil Air Patrol is not one of the exceptions. This prohibition is necessary to protect the unique technologies used in developing the uniform.
The National Board has placed a hold on all uniform changes pending a review of the entire CAP uniform structure. This review is ongoing by the CAP National Uniform Committee and a draft report will be presented to the Summer National Board Meeting in Baltimore in August 2012. The presentation will be available online via web stream but all CAP members are encouraged to attend.
I bought mine brand new from US Patriot Tactical and I am not military. I am just a civilian in CAP. The DoD makes it sound like nobody is allowed to buy them except if you are in the USAF.
Thats what they want us to believe, but its not true.
So, why did the DoD put that announcement out there?
Basher: I'm still waiting for some pics of you/your squadron in ABUs? Blurry out your face, name, etc but I'd really like see...
Quote from: JK657 on January 14, 2012, 08:11:12 PM
Basher: I'm still waiting for some pics of you/your squadron in ABUs? Blurry out your face, name, etc but I'd really like see...
You will be waiting along time im sure. Stillwater Composite squadron has a blog on their webpage (http://stillwatercap.weebly.com/squadron-blog.html (http://stillwatercap.weebly.com/squadron-blog.html) ) . Check out this recent post:
Tuesday's Meeting (1.10.12) 01/10/2012
0 Comments
The uniform is BDUs tonight. Shine your boots and iron your uniform. We will be going over emergency services.
I figured as much GP... I don't mind people stretching the truth but when you put your unit on your profile be prepared to be called out
Quote from: Basher on January 14, 2012, 05:31:58 PM
So, why did the DoD put that announcement out there?
Because members of captalk won't leave it alone until we have an answer. This is something to calm us down, even if it is be.
I think it just riled us up.
Also Dod didn't put that out there. That is what nhq says the Dod says.
I could care less if we get ABU's or not. If so, cool...especially if the AF permits us to change from the hideous ultramarine blue insignia. If not...I am perfectly happy with my BBDU's.
I would be much happier if we could get a "corporate" uniform that didn't look like a mall cop crossed with a Realtor.
Quote from: CyBorg on January 15, 2012, 06:56:36 AM
....
I would be much happier if we could get a "corporate" uniform that didn't look like a mall cop crossed with a Realtor.
Amen! My sentiments exactly.
They could add a gray belt for CAP instead of the blue the USAF would wear.
USAF wears a tan/sand rigger belt with ABUs.
Quote from: CAP_truth on January 16, 2012, 03:27:08 AM
They could add a gray belt for CAP instead of the blue the USAF would wear.
Great Bog in Devon, why does it always have to be GREY whenever CAP is mentioned?!?!?!?!?! ::) >:( :(
Quote from: CyBorg on January 16, 2012, 05:14:50 AM
Great Bog in Devon, why does it always have to be GREY whenever CAP is mentioned?!?!?!?!?! ::) >:( :(
For discussion purposes only...because it serves as a primary irritant for so many participants on this board.
Quote from: SARDOC on January 16, 2012, 05:16:20 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on January 16, 2012, 05:14:50 AM
Great Bog in Devon, why does it always have to be GREY whenever CAP is mentioned?!?!?!?!?! ::) >:( :(
For discussion purposes only...because it serves as a primary irritant for so many participants on this board.
Really...I thought I was the only one who hated grey and couldn't fathom why CAP has bought into it so heavily as its "goto"
colour shade.
But, as I'm sure you know, some (again inexplicable to me)
really are zealots for CAP looking like Imperial officers or East German troops.
I am frankly surprised some of these zealots haven't tried to steer away from contemplating "will we/won't we get ABU's" and skew it toward canning both the BDU and BBDU and replacing it with grey BDU's. ::)
Quote from: CyBorg on January 16, 2012, 05:34:18 PM
Quote from: SARDOC on January 16, 2012, 05:16:20 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on January 16, 2012, 05:14:50 AM
Great Bog in Devon, why does it always have to be GREY whenever CAP is mentioned?!?!?!?!?! ::) >:( :(
For discussion purposes only...because it serves as a primary irritant for so many participants on this board.
Really...I thought I was the only one who hated grey and couldn't fathom why CAP has bought into it so heavily as its "goto" colour shade.
But, as I'm sure you know, some (again inexplicable to me) really are zealots for CAP looking like Imperial officers or East German troops.
I am frankly surprised some of these zealots haven't tried to steer away from contemplating "will we/won't we get ABU's" and skew it toward canning both the BDU and BBDU and replacing it with grey BDU's. ::)
Is it wrong to say I think looking like imperial officers would be cool?
But none of our stuff looks like the imperials.
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on January 16, 2012, 06:10:39 PM
But none of our stuff looks like the imperials.
No. It's too "mall-cop" for that.
However, it does resemble the East German Army.
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on January 16, 2012, 06:10:39 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on January 16, 2012, 05:34:18 PM
Quote from: SARDOC on January 16, 2012, 05:16:20 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on January 16, 2012, 05:14:50 AM
Great Bog in Devon, why does it always have to be GREY whenever CAP is mentioned?!?!?!?!?! ::) >:( :(
For discussion purposes only...because it serves as a primary irritant for so many participants on this board.
Really...I thought I was the only one who hated grey and couldn't fathom why CAP has bought into it so heavily as its "goto" colour shade.
But, as I'm sure you know, some (again inexplicable to me) really are zealots for CAP looking like Imperial officers or East German troops.
I am frankly surprised some of these zealots haven't tried to steer away from contemplating "will we/won't we get ABU's" and skew it toward canning both the BDU and BBDU and replacing it with grey BDU's. ::)
Is it wrong to say I think looking like imperial officers would be cool?
But none of our stuff looks like the imperials.
We would have to come up with new insignia to match our grade structure. Not to mention that pilots wear black.
Grey flight suits, grey BDU'S, Grey air line type uniforms, black leather flight jackets with gray name badges,. grey COV'S, GREY PLANES!, Grey boots, grey hair,and to top it off a grey colored ribbon(grey service award). Cap is becoming Greyzy. Bring it on uniform board!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I believe gray is mentioned often because it is a color we already use; also, because none of the regular US military services wear gray uniforms (West Point cadets have gray uniforms, I believe).
Black is another primary color available, but I think associations with the SS (historically) and Star Wars (fictionally) argue against it.
I've suggested khaki/tan in the past, especially since it is a CAP and USAF 'heritage' uniform color.
Quote from: JK657 on January 14, 2012, 09:57:00 PM
I figured as much GP... I don't mind people stretching the truth but when you put your unit on your profile be prepared to be called out
Just to let you know, I am not stretching the truth. I will send you a picture and put one on this page soon.
I like grey or gray as a color, it's rather neutral and can go with anything. Personally I like the grey epaulets and plates for SM rather than the blue and maroon that was the norm when I first joined. But I will say there is a over emphasis on grey/gray that could be scaled back. A grey belt with ABUs hideous. Sand or as much i hate to say it a sage belt is much better. I still think staying with the tan boots or even a black leather or suede boot would have been better than what we currently have to wear. Thankfully I can still wear my nice 5.11's with my blues.
Here it is JK657. Told you I wasn't stretching the truth.(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-FyWPUh0aOos/TxSAl8wx64I/AAAAAAAAAc4/cQ9t1RimPVg/w146-h194-k/2012-01-10%2B21.44.56.jpg)
If this isn't photoshopped (which I'm assuming it is), then things just got weird.
:o
Um....
and we all wonder why the AF gets angry with us sometimes....
Basher: If I'm correct, then everybody was looking for pictures of your unit wearing ABU's, not just one person.
Because really, any one person can just buy ABU's and put CAP insignia on it for the fun of it...
Nice try:
http://stillwatercap.weebly.com/squadron-blog.html (http://stillwatercap.weebly.com/squadron-blog.html)
"Tuesday's Meeting (1.10.12)
01/10/2012
0 Comments
The uniform is BDUs tonight. Shine your boots and iron your uniform. We will be going over emergency services.
Now, can we get back to ignoring this nonsense?
Quote from: Basher on January 16, 2012, 07:58:43 PM
Here it is JK657. Told you I wasn't stretching the truth.(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-FyWPUh0aOos/TxSAl8wx64I/AAAAAAAAAc4/cQ9t1RimPVg/w146-h194-k/2012-01-10%2B21.44.56.jpg)
I appreciate you taking the time to post a picture. I should have been more specific in my request for a pic. As titanII pointed out, one person can dress up in any uniform in their house but a whole unit is a different story. Can you wrangle up one of the rest of your unit in ABUs?
Quote from: Eclipse on January 16, 2012, 08:11:14 PM
Nice try:
http://stillwatercap.weebly.com/squadron-blog.html (http://stillwatercap.weebly.com/squadron-blog.html)
"Tuesday's Meeting (1.10.12)
01/10/2012
0 Comments
The uniform is BDUs tonight. Shine your boots and iron your uniform. We will be going over emergency services.
Now, can we get back to ignoring this nonsense?
To answer your question, I bought the ABUs because my squadron commander said that our squadron could wear ABUs. I am the only one in my squadron that has them though. It says BDUs on the website because that is what everybody else is still wearing. I bet you are just jealous that you aren't wearing ABUs in CAP.
oh snaps... this is about to get interesting
It was brave to put a uniform pic up in this place, for that I applaud you but please know that if what you say is true, in that your commander has authorized you to wear them then he is setting you up to fail. Hang on to them and one day they may get approved but I recommend wearing your BDUs from now on
One of these things is not like the other. Seriously I am surprised that you have not been counseled on this. And this comment "I bet you are just jealous that you aren't wearing ABUs in CAP." is way out of line. Currently ABUs are not authorized for CAP and your unit CC does not trump those above him. I would expect to see that someone will probably be notifying your CC about your conduct.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 16, 2012, 07:05:15 PM
I believe gray is mentioned often because it is a color we already use; also, because none of the regular US military services wear gray uniforms (West Point cadets have gray uniforms, I believe).
The Navy used it in WWII. A lot of police departments use it.
My point: We didn't always use it. Prior to 1995, I believe it was IACE and the old "plain" G/W uniform, and that was
it. Once the grey epaulettes and nameplate were established, it seemed like there wasn't anything in the CAP that wouldn't be "greyable" somehow.
You are correct; West Point cadets do wear grey uniforms.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 16, 2012, 07:05:15 PM
I've suggested khaki/tan in the past, especially since it is a CAP and USAF 'heritage' uniform color.
I would be all for that, pinks and greens. But the grey zealots are too firmly entrenched.
Why, in all the known universe, can't we have at least a splash of colour with it if it's got to be grey? Blue airline-type shirts, for example? As I've said before...
the USAF does not hold the copyright on all shades of blue!(http://www.tallyhouniforms.com/images/pictures/pilotshirts/Aviator/aviator_blue3a.jpg)
This shirt, with grey uniform pants, and the existing grey epaulettes/nameplate...you'd have to be
looking for reasons to say "that's too similar! eeek!"
Quote from: abdsp51 on January 16, 2012, 08:31:47 PM
One of these things is not like the other. Seriously I am surprised that you have not been counseled on this. And this comment "I bet you are just jealous that you aren't wearing ABUs in CAP." is way out of line. Currently ABUs are not authorized for CAP and your unit CC does not trump those above him. I would expect to see that someone will probably be notifying your CC about your conduct.
My guess is that if the information presented is correct there will be TWO and not just one counselling reports filed :angel:
Quote from: abdsp51 on January 16, 2012, 08:31:47 PM
One of these things is not like the other. Seriously I am surprised that you have not been counseled on this. And this comment "I bet you are just jealous that you aren't wearing ABUs in CAP." is way out of line. Currently ABUs are not authorized for CAP and your unit CC does not trump those above him. I would expect to see that someone will probably be notifying your CC about your conduct.
Everything abdsp51 said.
It doesn't have a bloody thing to do with "jealousy." I am bitter that the CSU was killed, and I am still bitter after almost 20 years that we got blue epaulettes/metal grade taken away. But I am
not going to shoot the bird at the regs by continuing to wear them.
Why on earth did you shell out money, or have someone shell out
for you, for a uniform you cannot legally wear with CAP insignia? I think Canadian CADPAT digital camouflage looks really cool, but I would be a blithering idiot to shell out for a set of those and put CAP insignia on it.
If you've got aspirations toward the Armed Forces, you'll have to learn double quick on your first day of basic training that you cannot wear just what you want and flout the regs.
If you were in my unit, counselling would definitely be in order...and since my unit meets on an ANG base, you would be fortunate to have a CAP officer doing it rather than running into some SMSgt with that getup on.
I really hope your CC is being made aware of this.
Didn't anyone else look at the URL? googleusercontent.com/
It is from Google. ::)
http://www.seroundtable.com/archives/021929.html (http://www.seroundtable.com/archives/021929.html)
http://whois.domaintools.com/googleusercontent.com (http://whois.domaintools.com/googleusercontent.com)
My CC will know about it very soon. I have actually only worn it to one meeting. My CC probably just had some weird kind of misunderstanding about whether or not we could wear them. I didn't know that they weren't authorized until I looked on this website.
I'd be worried about the SSgt/TSgt that is old eagle eyes that would see that and raise hell about it. The cadet has displayed a gross lack of judgement in his decision making capability and needs a heavy duty brain to mouth filter. Any CC should know what is an authorized uniform combination or not. And being a C/Officer I am surprised he did not take the time to do the homework himself as to whether or not ABUs were authorized. If I was a member I'd definitely be having a talk with him about his lack of judgement.
Quote from: abdsp51 on January 16, 2012, 08:54:52 PM
I'd be worried about the SSgt/TSgt that is old eagle eyes that would see that and raise hell about it. The cadet has displayed a gross lack of judgement in his decision making capability and needs a heavy duty brain to mouth filter. Any CC should know what is an authorized uniform combination or not. And being a C/Officer I am surprised he did not take the time to do the homework himself as to whether or not ABUs were authorized. If I was a member I'd definitely be having a talk with him about his lack of judgement.
I certainly will be having a conversation about it with my CC.
Quote from: Basher on January 16, 2012, 08:23:58 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 16, 2012, 08:11:14 PM
Nice try:
http://stillwatercap.weebly.com/squadron-blog.html (http://stillwatercap.weebly.com/squadron-blog.html)
"Tuesday's Meeting (1.10.12)
01/10/2012
0 Comments
The uniform is BDUs tonight. Shine your boots and iron your uniform. We will be going over emergency services.
Now, can we get back to ignoring this nonsense?
To answer your question, I bought the ABUs because my squadron commander said that our squadron could wear ABUs. I am the only one in my squadron that has them though. It says BDUs on the website because that is what everybody else is still wearing. I bet you are just jealous that you aren't wearing ABUs in CAP.
Before pounding too hard on Basher, if his statement is correct and if in fact his Squadron Commander did authorize them it is not his fault. Having a face to face discussion with his command would be appropriate action to take having learned here that it is NOT allowed.
There is a distinct possibility that someone higher within his unit than he put out bad information.
Somehow I doubt after the thrashing that Basher has gotten here that the ABU will be his uniform of choice to attend his next meeting in 8)
We ALL know that some members march to their own tune at times and in this instance I can only hope that it was an honest misunderstanding.
Possible, but when you are the only one wearing them should be an indicator. And the jealous comment, way out of line, for a cadet especially one indicating he is a cadet officer. Is it possible bad info maybe but shouldn't a unit cc know whats authorized for wear and what's not?
Just got done talking to the recent OK/WG IG. He has made clear that NO unit commanders have ever authorized that uniform, as they have no authority to do so.
Quote from: RogueLeader on January 16, 2012, 09:36:15 PM
Just got done talking to the recent OK/WG IG. He has made clear that NO unit commanders have ever authorized that uniform, as they have no authority to do so.
Well, I'm just stating facts. My unit CC specifically told me that our squadron could wear ABUs. Unfortunately, I did not check around on the web about the regs until after I had bought my ABUs and worn them to a meeting.
Quote from: Basher on January 16, 2012, 09:42:17 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on January 16, 2012, 09:36:15 PM
Just got done talking to the recent OK/WG IG. He has made clear that NO unit commanders have ever authorized that uniform, as they have no authority to do so.
Well, I'm just stating facts. My unit CC specifically told me that our squadron could wear ABUs. Unfortunately, I did not check around on the web about the regs until after I had bought my ABUs and worn them to a meeting.
So am I.
All you have to do is say that you are wrong, and made a mistake. we won't hold that against you. If you don't, you look like a fool, and we really don't want that.
Quote from: abdsp51 on January 16, 2012, 09:32:11 PM
Possible, but when you are the only one wearing them should be an indicator. And the jealous comment, way out of line, for a cadet especially one indicating he is a cadet officer. Is it possible bad info maybe but shouldn't a unit cc know whats authorized for wear and what's not?
Posted by: RogueLeader
« on: Today at 04:36:15 PM »Insert Quote
Just got done talking to the recent OK/WG IG. He has made clear that NO unit commanders have ever authorized that uniform, as they have no authority to do so.
------------
rustyjeeper-
Well, I would say that the meeting this week should be
most interesting for Basher when he arrives to discuss the uniform issues >:D
Talk about "poking the the hornets nest" - he didnt use a stick to do it- he used both arms and legs....... :o
You can say that again. :-[
More along the lines of a baseball bat. Rule of thumb see it in writing, it will have you a whole slew of headaches and gives you much more solid footing to stand on.
Quote from: Basher on January 16, 2012, 09:47:01 PM
You can say that again. :-[
No need to I actually feel badly for you. I would suggest printing off a copy of this entire post and bringing it with you so as to be prepared for the firing squad. Hopefully the commander accepts responsibility if in fact he made the mistake. If you misunderstood, apologize and learn from the mistake and move on....
Good Luck!
Quote from: rustyjeeper on January 16, 2012, 09:53:16 PM
I would suggest printing off a copy of this entire post and bringing it with you so as to be prepared
Or just remind your CC that it doesn't state anywhere in CAPM 39-1 (the OFFICIAL Uniform Manual for CAP) that ABU's are allowed under ANY circumstances.
Quote from: titanII on January 16, 2012, 10:01:59 PM
Quote from: rustyjeeper on January 16, 2012, 09:53:16 PM
I would suggest printing off a copy of this entire post and bringing it with you so as to be prepared
Or just remind your CC that it doesn't state anywhere in CAPM 39-1 (the OFFICIAL Uniform Manual for CAP) that ABU's are allowed under ANY circumstances.
Reminding one's CC of something when said something landed you in hot water is not a recommended course of action. Now if the CC messed up with the alleged statement then he bares a brunt of it however this may come off as being snotty.
Quote from: abdsp51 on January 16, 2012, 10:09:58 PM
Quote from: titanII on January 16, 2012, 10:01:59 PM
Quote from: rustyjeeper on January 16, 2012, 09:53:16 PM
I would suggest printing off a copy of this entire post and bringing it with you so as to be prepared
Or just remind your CC that it doesn't state anywhere in CAPM 39-1 (the OFFICIAL Uniform Manual for CAP) that ABU's are allowed under ANY circumstances.
Reminding one's CC of something when said something landed you in hot water is not a recommended course of action. Now if the CC messed up with the alleged statement then he bares a brunt of it however this may come off as being snotty.
The last thing you want is to appear to be "snotty" BUT if you were told it was in fact authorized stick to your guns and simply state the facts. An apology for having acted improperly as well, would be in order. In one of the earlier posts it was said that the SC was the one to say it was okay and not the CC and since now the IG has been made aware of the issue I am sure that this meeting will be done in private with his participation- since it is now in the "spotlight" it wont be a simple chat and someone is going to need to accept responsibility.
Rustyjeeper, I agree with you on stating facts and sticking to guns. If a CC did in fact say that then it's on him for the cadet wearing said uniform. There is a time to stick to your guns and a time to retreat, IMHO the cadet would be better advised to discuss the issue and his behavior in regards to it and retreat. I will give him the benefit of the doubt that he does not act this way within his unit or towards his own SM however if and that is a big IF that this is normal for him then then the action would only add fuel to an already hot fire.
Going back to the original topic for a moment...
So CAP (AF Auxiliary) isn't on the list of approved users, but JROTC is? http://www.txwgcap.org/content/news_110418.htm (http://www.txwgcap.org/content/news_110418.htm)
Someone said something about upward-facing sunshine earlier...
Sorry, I'm still calling Class-3 shenanigans.
Did your Unit CC also tell you to buy the pack and kneepads?
There's nothing to see here, the OK-103 CC did not tell anyone it was OK to wear ABU's, and I still doubt this poster is really who he was saying he
was. His email has been removed from his profile in the last hour or so.
Quote from: abdsp51 on January 16, 2012, 10:33:32 PM
Rustyjeeper, I agree with you on stating facts and sticking to guns. If a CC did in fact say that then it's on him for the cadet wearing said uniform. There is a time to stick to your guns and a time to retreat, IMHO the cadet would be better advised to discuss the issue and his behavior in regards to it and retreat. I will give him the benefit of the doubt that he does not act this way within his unit or towards his own SM however if and that is a big IF that this is normal for him then then the action would only add fuel to an already hot fire.
This is one situation where a public forum is not the ideal place to learn what is and is not proper. hopefully it becomes a learning experience and as a result the end product is a cadet who learns from mistakes and does not repeat them. A lot of people only know what they see and hear in their own unit and many units dont interact much with others in CAP. Captalk can be a double edged sword and can provide good information, but it can also be a place where you easily get yourself neck deep in Sh_t fast :). At this point in time, clear discussion of all the facts is the only way to go and like I mentioned before, LEARN from the entire ordeal. What is said online in a forum is not private, it is public and a small misunderstanding can quickly become a BIG problem as happened here. When Basher discovered that a mistake might have been made at the unit level,
he should have shut his mouth and faded into the woodwork, hoping to be forgotten. He did not and this grew and gained attention. Now in effect this if not his own mistake is in effect his unit's "dirty laundry" aired out for all of us to see. It would have been best if he waited and discussed the discrepeancies in the regulation that he discovered here internally within his unit. I am sure that next time he will think twice. Everyone makes mistakes, the important thing is to learn from them and be able to move on and not repeat the same ones!
Quote from: rustyjeeper on January 16, 2012, 10:52:05 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on January 16, 2012, 10:33:32 PM
Rustyjeeper, I agree with you on stating facts and sticking to guns. If a CC did in fact say that then it's on him for the cadet wearing said uniform. There is a time to stick to your guns and a time to retreat, IMHO the cadet would be better advised to discuss the issue and his behavior in regards to it and retreat. I will give him the benefit of the doubt that he does not act this way within his unit or towards his own SM however if and that is a big IF that this is normal for him then then the action would only add fuel to an already hot fire.
This is one situation where a public forum is not the ideal place to learn what is and is not proper. hopefully it becomes a learning experience and as a result the end product is a cadet who learns from mistakes and does not repeat them. A lot of people only know what they see and hear in their own unit and many units dont interact much with others in CAP. Captalk can be a double edged sword and can provide good information, but it can also be a place where you easily get yourself neck deep in Sh_t fast :). At this point in time, clear discussion of all the facts is the only way to go and like I mentioned before, LEARN from the entire ordeal. What is said online in a forum is not private, it is public and a small misunderstanding can quickly become a BIG problem as happened here. When Basher discovered that a mistake might have been made at the unit level, he should have shut his mouth and faded into the woodwork, hoping to be forgotten. He did not and this grew and gained attention. Now in effect this if not his own mistake is in effect his unit's "dirty laundry" aired out for all of us to see. It would have been best if he waited and discussed the discrepeancies in the regulation that he discovered here internally within his unit. I am sure that next time he will think twice. Everyone makes mistakes, the important thing is to learn from them and be able to move on and not repeat the same ones!
I concour
Quote from: Eclipse on January 16, 2012, 10:46:46 PM
Sorry, I'm still calling Class-3 shenanigans.
Did your Unit CC also tell you to buy the pack and kneepads?
There's nothing to see here, the OK-103 CC did not tell anyone it was OK to wear ABU's, and I still doubt this poster is really who he was saying he
was. His email has been removed from his profile in the last hour or so.
Just let it drop.
Really.
Is this the first time that some squadron commander talked out his butt?
Is this the first time that someone "misudnerstood" something in such a way that they got what they wanted?
Instead of jumping down this guys throat......let's report this incident to the wing commander and let him handle it.
At the same time let's report CAWG and PAWG for their BS....
This get a little tiring......My first post was all that needed to be said.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on January 16, 2012, 10:45:24 PM
Going back to the original topic for a moment...
So CAP (AF Auxiliary) isn't on the list of approved users, but JROTC is? http://www.txwgcap.org/content/news_110418.htm (http://www.txwgcap.org/content/news_110418.htm)
Someone said something about upward-facing sunshine earlier...
That was me.
BS. BS. BS. BS.
Like I said....tell me yes, tell me no, tell me to just shut up and wait.....but feed me BS and I get angery.
Quote from: lordmonar on January 16, 2012, 10:56:29 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on January 16, 2012, 10:45:24 PM
Going back to the original topic for a moment...
So CAP (AF Auxiliary) isn't on the list of approved users, but JROTC is? http://www.txwgcap.org/content/news_110418.htm (http://www.txwgcap.org/content/news_110418.htm)
Someone said something about upward-facing sunshine earlier...
That was me.
BS. BS. BS. BS.
Like I said....tell me yes, tell me no, tell me to just shut up and wait.....but feed me BS and I get angery.
Today Facebook suggested that I friend Maj Gen Carr... Maybe we should friend him and ask him what the deal is >:D.
All I am going to say further is that, to use two shopworn cliches, I hope that this has been a "teachable moment" for our young friend Basher.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on January 16, 2012, 10:45:24 PM
So CAP (AF Auxiliary) isn't on the list of approved users, but JROTC is?
Exactly another prime reason that the announcement from NHQ hasn't been thoroughly researched. I think the NHQ statement is smoke and mirrors to get people to stop asking. Instead they stirred a hornets nest.
For the JROTC ABU discussion see link below
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=11402.0 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=11402.0)
I have been doing some hard core research to find the exact DOD policy given to cap members over eservices, even going so far as to use several "contact us" features at different DOD level web sites and the pentagon. Surprisingly (that's sarcastic) not a single one of those I have asked can find it, and I can not seem to find it on the internet either. I have found several talking about controlling the IR and the license to produce them, but nothing to the extant that NHQ said....
Makes one wonder.....
I'd bet we could get Propper to produce them without IR squares (assuming the ones they're selling publicly aren't already produced without them). Poof, problem solved.
I am considering using the new ask the commander feature why they are pumping out misinformation to us instead of giving us a straight answer. This is ridiculous, lying breaks our core value of integrity first.
Quote from: Littleguy on January 17, 2012, 12:09:14 AM
I am considering using the new ask the commander feature why they are pumping out misinformation to us instead of giving us a straight answer. This is ridiculous, lying breaks our core value of integrity first.
I'm sure someone will jump me for this, but I will go ahead and put out my vast right wing/left wing conspiracy theory....
I do not think NHQ went out of its way to lie to us...
What I do think happened is that someone went off half cocked and stepped in it, and now NHQ does not know how to reel it back in without certain ex members turned bloggers losing his mind over it.
I also believe that the root cause forcing someone to go off half cocked was that NHQ is caving to the "lets not make MA BLUE angry over anything crowd" and the radioman style "Abu's or anything close to active uniforms are scary crowd".
But that is just me
I do not feel it is appropriate to direct to the National Commander button. When the time comes for ABU's to become the uniform we will be notified.
Littleguy- the choice is yours to make. Think it thru before you act and ask yourself how important it is before you submit the query.
I feel strongly that NHQ and those with influence at NHQ check these forums regularly to keep track of what the membership is saying or thinks overall. We might not see a speedy change as a result of gripes or problems BUT I am sure that what is posted here makes it's way upstairs eventually...
Choice is yours to make, as are the possible repercussions if you are one of the 2,935,000 others who hit the Ask the National Commander button on this topic >:D The button should only be used for items of real importance in my opinion.
Didn't anyone read my post?
He got the image off of google.
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on January 17, 2012, 02:26:16 AM
Didn't anyone read my post?
He got the image off of google.
Hosted on Google doesn't = "found on Google".
I have to say, after seeing the full photo, at a minimum it looks legit for this cadet - even including
having the luggage tag sewn in place of the branch tape.
(Yes, people that item with the fully embroidered
edge is supposed to be a luggage tag...)(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-FyWPUh0aOos/TxSAl8wx64I/AAAAAAAAAc4/cQ9t1RimPVg/)
That doesn't fill in the why or how this came to be, but certainly answer the "if"....
What is the brown item by the right leg? Looks like a small fish to me...... :)
Could this somehow be a specially authorized uniform for cadet fishing trips 8)
Kneepads twisted around - certainly not something CAP would ever need, especially for a unit meeting.
I only saw the one, now that I look closer I see the other.
No kneepads would not be neccessary although some who spend a lot of time on their knees worshipping the bureacracy might appreciate them if authorized ;)
The wing patch looks like Wisconsin to me.
OKWG has an upper red rocker:
(http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/000000CAP0638I.jpg)
WIWG has a blue lower rocker:
(http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/000000CAP0638W.jpg)
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on January 17, 2012, 03:36:22 AM
The wing patch looks like Wisconsin to me.
It's Texas. Note the bright red top rocker and yellow in the middle field.
Quote from: jeders on January 17, 2012, 02:13:54 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on January 17, 2012, 03:36:22 AM
The wing patch looks like Wisconsin to me.
It's Texas. Note the bright red top rocker and yellow in the middle field.
TXWG's rocker is much smaller...
(http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/000000CAP0638Q.jpg)
Quote from: CyBorg on December 30, 2011, 04:43:12 AM
Quote from: HGjunkie on December 30, 2011, 04:27:06 AM
About 67% of the reason I joined CAP initially was because I would have the ability to wear a variant of our Nation's Uniform. A lot of cadets have the primary motivator to join up tied into the uniforms, especially if they're coming from a military family or have aspirations to go into the military later on, etc.
It's not just cadets. I joined very much because of the Air Force connection. If that were lost, a big part of the appeal of CAP to me would be lost.
same, the main reason i joined was because of the uniforms and Air Force affiliation. If we drop the Air Force uniforms/affiliation, we lose a huge part of our charm to younger potential cadets...
Quote from: NCRblues on January 17, 2012, 12:33:03 AM
I also believe that the root cause forcing someone to go off half cocked was that NHQ is caving to the "lets not make MA BLUE angry over anything crowd" and the radioman style "Abu's or anything close to active uniforms are scary crowd".
It's not just you.
It's me, too.
Really, the two crowds are one and the same.
It is that crowd that killed the CSU.
It is that crowd that wants everything CAP to be grey, drab and colourless.
It is that crowd that would have us all in polo shirts.
It is that crowd that assumes the AF would be against something without even
asking them.
It is that crowd that has been a large part of the destruction of the esprit de corps of CAP.
Quote from: CyBorg on January 17, 2012, 07:46:43 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on January 17, 2012, 12:33:03 AM
I also believe that the root cause forcing someone to go off half cocked was that NHQ is caving to the "lets not make MA BLUE angry over anything crowd" and the radioman style "Abu's or anything close to active uniforms are scary crowd".
It's not just you.
It's me, too.
Really, the two crowds are one and the same.
It is that crowd that killed the CSU.
It is that crowd that wants everything CAP to be grey, drab and colourless.
It is that crowd that would have us all in polo shirts.
It is that crowd that assumes the AF would be against something without even asking them.
It is that crowd that has been a large part of the destruction of the esprit de corps of CAP.
Agreed, now how do we get a National Commander who will change things back to the old ways ?
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 19, 2012, 02:57:27 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on January 17, 2012, 07:46:43 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on January 17, 2012, 12:33:03 AM
I also believe that the root cause forcing someone to go off half cocked was that NHQ is caving to the "lets not make MA BLUE angry over anything crowd" and the radioman style "Abu's or anything close to active uniforms are scary crowd".
It's not just you.
It's me, too.
Really, the two crowds are one and the same.
It is that crowd that killed the CSU.
It is that crowd that wants everything CAP to be grey, drab and colourless.
It is that crowd that would have us all in polo shirts.
It is that crowd that assumes the AF would be against something without even asking them.
It is that crowd that has been a large part of the destruction of the esprit de corps of CAP.
Agreed, now how do we get a National Commander who will change things back to the old ways ?
Western style diplomacy: shoot everyone that says anything.
anything
>:D
(http://www.samuelljackson.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/gallery/samuel-jackson/samuel-jackson-06.jpg)
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 19, 2012, 02:57:27 AM
Agreed, now how do we get a National Commander who will change things back to the old ways ?
I don't think such a person exists.
Quote from: CyBorg on January 19, 2012, 07:58:22 AM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 19, 2012, 02:57:27 AM
Agreed, now how do we get a National Commander who will change things back to the old ways ?
I don't think such a person exists.
Oh......such people exist....they just will never be eleected to the position of National Commander....and if they ever got that high by accident....the NB would never let them get away with trying to enfoce the rules.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 17, 2012, 02:49:16 AM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on January 17, 2012, 02:26:16 AM
Didn't anyone read my post?
He got the image off of google.
Hosted on Google doesn't = "found on Google".
I have to say, after seeing the full photo, at a minimum it looks legit for this cadet - even including
having the luggage tag sewn in place of the branch tape. (Yes, people that item with the fully embroidered
edge is supposed to be a luggage tag...)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-FyWPUh0aOos/TxSAl8wx64I/AAAAAAAAAc4/cQ9t1RimPVg/)
That doesn't fill in the why or how this came to be, but certainly answer the "if"....
I know that kid, he's from my wing -- pretty sharp cadet too, I've been to 2 encampments where he was on staff, this doesn't seem like him. I thought he was smarter than that.
I keep telling everybody that my squadron commander authorized my squadron to wear the ABU and so I got some and wore them to a meeting before I looked online and found out that they were not authorized for CAP wear. How does that make me the trouble maker?? ???
Quote from: Basher on January 19, 2012, 06:30:46 PM
I keep telling everybody that my squadron commander authorized my squadron to wear the ABU and so I got some and wore them to a meeting before I looked online and found out that they were not authorized for CAP wear. How does that make me the trouble maker?? ???
Because as a cadet officer you should be smarter than that.
Quote from: Basher on January 19, 2012, 06:30:46 PM
I keep telling everybody that my squadron commander authorized my squadron to wear the ABU and so I got some and wore them to a meeting before I looked online and found out that they were not authorized for CAP wear. How does that make me the trouble maker?? ???
Because your wing IG (who happens to be a member of this board) has already contacted your unit commander, and the unit commander said that was not true.
Quote from: NCRblues on January 19, 2012, 06:44:09 PM
Quote from: Basher on January 19, 2012, 06:30:46 PM
I keep telling everybody that my squadron commander authorized my squadron to wear the ABU and so I got some and wore them to a meeting before I looked online and found out that they were not authorized for CAP wear. How does that make me the trouble maker?? ???
Because your wing IG (who happens to be a member of this board) has already contacted your unit commander, and the unit commander said that was not true.
That actually can't even be true. I already talked to my unit commander about it and cleared things up. So, either you're a liar or my unit commander is a liar. You tell me.
Quote from: shlebz on January 17, 2012, 05:02:03 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on December 30, 2011, 04:43:12 AM
Quote from: HGjunkie on December 30, 2011, 04:27:06 AM
About 67% of the reason I joined CAP initially was because I would have the ability to wear a variant of our Nation's Uniform. A lot of cadets have the primary motivator to join up tied into the uniforms, especially if they're coming from a military family or have aspirations to go into the military later on, etc.
It's not just cadets. I joined very much because of the Air Force connection. If that were lost, a big part of the appeal of CAP to me would be lost.
same, the main reason i joined was because of the uniforms and Air Force affiliation. If we drop the Air Force uniforms/affiliation, we lose a huge part of our charm to younger potential cadets...
Agreed. I joined CAP because I was medically disqualified from the service on a non-waiverable condition. (sleepwalking) I felt lost after leaving NROTC and when I found out I could still at least ATTEMPT to make good on the oath I took as a Midshipman by getting back in uniform with CAP, I was delighted. I take pride in my uniform and am thankful that the Air Force lets us wear the blues. Don't shun it like the plague like I've seen some do here and elsewhere.
Quote from: Basher on January 19, 2012, 06:49:44 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on January 19, 2012, 06:44:09 PM
Quote from: Basher on January 19, 2012, 06:30:46 PM
I keep telling everybody that my squadron commander authorized my squadron to wear the ABU and so I got some and wore them to a meeting before I looked online and found out that they were not authorized for CAP wear. How does that make me the trouble maker?? ???
Because your wing IG (who happens to be a member of this board) has already contacted your unit commander, and the unit commander said that was not true.
That actually can't even be true. I already talked to my unit commander about it and cleared things up. So, either you're a liar or my unit commander is a liar. You tell me.
Your wing IG is Captain Edmund. He posts on here as Edmo1. Like many people have said on this forum before, be careful what you say....someone from your chain of command is ALWAYS watching....
Quote from: Basher on January 19, 2012, 06:49:44 PM
That actually can't even be true. I already talked to my unit commander about it and cleared things up. So, either you're a liar or my unit commander is a liar. You tell me.
Cadet, your insistence that someone has to be a "liar" is not speaking well for you.
Quote from: davidsinn on January 19, 2012, 06:39:48 PM
Quote from: Basher on January 19, 2012, 06:30:46 PM
I keep telling everybody that my squadron commander authorized my squadron to wear the ABU and so I got some and wore them to a meeting before I looked online and found out that they were not authorized for CAP wear. How does that make me the trouble maker?? ???
Because as a cadet officer you should be smarter than that.
Smarter than to comply with what his unit commander tells him?
Is that really what we want in cadet officers?!?
Of course, if in fact this is not what his squadron CC told him, then he's in it pretty deep...and I heartily concur, this young man should not be throwing the word 'liar' around so freely in a public venue!
Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 19, 2012, 07:46:26 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on January 19, 2012, 06:39:48 PM
Quote from: Basher on January 19, 2012, 06:30:46 PM
I keep telling everybody that my squadron commander authorized my squadron to wear the ABU and so I got some and wore them to a meeting before I looked online and found out that they were not authorized for CAP wear. How does that make me the trouble maker?? ???
Because as a cadet officer you should be smarter than that.
Smarter than to comply with what his unit commander tells him?
Is that really what we want in cadet officers?!?
Had his commander said that he MUST wear any's, you would be right, but according to Basher's own testimony, he claims that he COULD. Big difference.
We aren't in the age of radio nets and snail mail being the only official source of information.
A cadet officer should be knowledgeable enough about how CAP works, especially in regards to uniforms.
If his unit CC told him CAP was getting F-16's, he'd be on Facebook or Twitter in 30 seconds getting the skinny, but he ordered an
entire uniform without checking anywhere first?
How did he know where to put the insignia, etc?
It sounds to me like selective hearing.
I for one advocate the "my commander told me" is okay. But as has been stated...a Cadet officer who has been around the block should know better, should know how to challenge his commander and should know how to report it up the chain......if he had any motivation to do so.
But since he wanted to wear his ABU's (I am speculating) he did not bother to follow up.
Like Eclipse said.....if my wing commander came out yesterday and said "ABU's are authroised now", I would be on Eservices in 10 minutes checking out the references and then I would be here 10 seconds later celebrating. If I could not find the references.....I would be on KB or calling NHQ for clarification. I would not be going out to buy a set of ABU'S!
Also....What are the chances that some squadron commander in OKWG would get the word that we with our brain trust would not?!?!
A lot of surplus stores acquire them from service members not serving currently as much with marine Uniforms, I know for on afrotc are authorized at college level for cadets since they are hopefully future officers of the air force
As on the enlisted side the Abu do have specially treated ifr/iff thread coatings that make the uniform a controlled itemed yes you can buy on civilian market but if caught with can face prosecution for controlled items if not able to provide a USAF identification common access card (cac Id)
I myself would rather wear multicam(OEf afghan camo) or a-tacs
Just speaking as both cap member and USAF service member
Lying is now an IG issue? ???
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on January 19, 2012, 08:25:41 PM
Lying is now an IG issue? ???
Lying is an discreditable offense and is punishable but still lying is unethical
Armed forces wide active duty reservse and guard lying is punishable under ucmj
Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 19, 2012, 07:48:38 PM
Of course, if in fact this is not what his squadron CC told him, then he's in it pretty deep...and I heartily concur, this young man should not be throwing the word 'liar' around so freely in a public venue!
Email my CC if you are so worried about it. Here is the address:
Basher there is a time and place for everything. Question do you plan on enlisting at all or gettibg commisioned? If so then you need to learn when to pick and choose your battles and when to bite the bullet. Your conduct has put you in the predicament you are in. Parties were contacted and the answer has been unaminous. Let it go before you dig a deeper hole.
Quote from: Basher on January 19, 2012, 08:43:12 PM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 19, 2012, 07:48:38 PM
Of course, if in fact this is not what his squadron CC told him, then he's in it pretty deep...and I heartily concur, this young man should not be throwing the word 'liar' around so freely in a public venue!
Email my CC if you are so worried about it. Here is the address:
Somebody already has, dude.
Quote from: Basher on January 19, 2012, 08:43:12 PM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 19, 2012, 07:48:38 PM
Of course, if in fact this is not what his squadron CC told him, then he's in it pretty deep...and I heartily concur, this young man should not be throwing the word 'liar' around so freely in a public venue!
Email my CC if you are so worried about it. Here is the address:
Posting your commander's email address on a public board is rather stupid. You just set him up for all kinds of spam now. I would be rather pissed if one of my cadet's posted mine in public.
Does anyone else notice that we do this sort of battle with someone new on here every other month or so?
Quote from: NCRblues on January 19, 2012, 09:07:57 PM
Does anyone else notice that we do this sort of battle with someone new on here every other month or so?
Five bucks says it's not someone new each time...
New person maybe but IIRC I think it's new person each time however I can only recall one who took an issue to the extremes.
Quote from: abdsp51 on January 19, 2012, 09:14:22 PM
New person maybe but IIRC I think it's new person each time however I can only recall one who took an issue to the extremes.
Oh there have been lots...they normally go away after posting. One of my favorite is hardshell clam :D
I think it's a by-product of this "Raise Awareness" attitude that pervades our online society.