The Air Force has eliminated BDUs. In the press release I read but can not now find - the mandatory replacement date is 10-1-11 and applies to all
subordinate units. http://www.maxwellgunterdispatch.com/article/20111104/DISPATCH01/111103030/1114/DISPATCH (http://www.maxwellgunterdispatch.com/article/20111104/DISPATCH01/111103030/1114/DISPATCH)
http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/dayton-news/air-force-mandates-an-updated-uniform-1279704.html (http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/dayton-news/air-force-mandates-an-updated-uniform-1279704.html)
The Navy still wears them, and will continue to wear them until at least 2012 - saw them with my own eyes last week.
The Coast Guard units that support Combat Operations still wear BDU's.
CAP still wears BDU's...
Quote from: titanII on November 05, 2011, 02:56:59 AM
CAP still wears BDU's...
CAP is not a major mil-spec BDU user.
Quote from: Smithsonia on November 04, 2011, 11:47:03 PM
The Air Force has eliminated BDUs. In the press release I read but can not now find - the mandatory replacement date is 10-1-11 and applies to all
subordinate units. http://www.maxwellgunterdispatch.com/article/20111104/DISPATCH01/111103030/1114/DISPATCH (http://www.maxwellgunterdispatch.com/article/20111104/DISPATCH01/111103030/1114/DISPATCH)
http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/dayton-news/air-force-mandates-an-updated-uniform-1279704.html (http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/dayton-news/air-force-mandates-an-updated-uniform-1279704.html)
As per AFI 36-2903 the mandatory wear date for the ABU was 1 November 2011.
So are they now regarded as "CAP-distinctive," since they are no longer an AF uniform?
Quote from: CyBorg on November 05, 2011, 07:10:49 AM
So are they now regarded as "CAP-distinctive," since they are no longer an AF uniform?
Not likely.
There should be a big push to get them out to CAP, if things are happening like they are in my neck of the woods. I wish they'd just start a phase in already for the ABU's, it wouldn't kill anyone if everybody wasn't wearing the same exact uniforms. If somebody wants to buy themselves a full set, including boots, then good on 'em.
Radioman still wears them, but they are colored bright red! ;D
62,000 CAP members are not required to wear them. I wear a flight suit 80% of the time that I am in a CAP uniform. If all 62,000 members were required to wear BDU's on a regular full time basis, we might have some sway in keeping them being produced.
Hello all! Looks like another uniform discussion. I would like to list my facts and thoughts on this never ending subject. Remember even when we change to another uniform set this discussion will continue!
FACTS:
1. Air Force has eliminated the BDU as a uniform. Effective 11/1/2011
2. Civil Air Patrol still authorizes the wear of the BDU.
3. BDU supplies (boots, belts, hats etc.) will be strained in the future.
4. Civil Airt Patrol is not authorized to wear the ABU.
5. Civil Air Patrol NB authorized a Uniform Committee for future recommendations.
6. All CAP uniform changes must be approved by the Air Force.
7. CAP has so many uniform variations to provide a distinction in our own organization.
THOUGHTS and QUESTIONS:
1. The Air Force (Defense Department) is looking to move away from the ABU to something else so I dont see CAP getting ABU anytime soon or more importantly ever.
2. What is the relationship between a military organization (USAF) and a civilian non-profit organization (CAP) regarding similiar wear of uniforms? (Take the side of the Air Force rather than CAP and provide your thoughts)
3. What would happen if we go to a non-military uniform? Would it effect any of our missions?
4. What if we choose a miltary uniform that doesnt emulate the Air Force uniform? (Take the side of the Air Force again and provide your thoughts)
5. I believe our relationship with the Air Force will change as the Air Force has made it clear it wants a distinction. The distinction can be discussed here or started on another POST.
6. The Air Force also made it clear it wants CAP to remain a strong organization and provide our three missions. We are a valued organization to the Air Force and to this nation.
7. To serve in a volunteer organization with the missions of CAP will always be my honor and priviledge.
Quote from: DrJbdm on November 05, 2011, 02:01:56 PM
62,000 CAP members are not required to wear them. I wear a flight suit 80% of the time that I am in a CAP uniform. If all 62,000 members were required to wear BDU's on a regular full time basis, we might have some sway in keeping them being produced.
Even if 1/2 of the 62,000 members owned more than one set of BDU's; its still 62,000+ uniforms. I only have two sets of BDU's myself. Cadets going to camp are required to have about 4 sets of them (my daughter did). It's enough profit for someone to make them.
Quote from: Thrashed on November 05, 2011, 01:47:15 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 05, 2011, 04:42:17 AM
Quote from: titanII on November 05, 2011, 02:56:59 AM
CAP still wears BDU's...
CAP is not a major mil-spec BDU user.
62,000 members is enough to keep them coming.
Probably more like 30-35 thousand seeing as how most seniors don't have them.
Quote from: ironputts on November 05, 2011, 02:04:36 PM
FACTS:
3. BDU supplies (boots, belts, hats etc.) will be strained in the future.
Fact? I don't think so.
Quote from: RiverAux on November 05, 2011, 02:28:57 PM
Quote from: Thrashed on November 05, 2011, 01:47:15 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 05, 2011, 04:42:17 AM
Quote from: titanII on November 05, 2011, 02:56:59 AM
CAP still wears BDU's...
CAP is not a major mil-spec BDU user.
62,000 members is enough to keep them coming.
Probably more like 30-35 thousand seeing as how most seniors don't have them.
More like 100,000+ since most cadets have numerous sets of BDU's and many seniors too (some of us do ground SAR too).
Quote from: DrJbdm on November 05, 2011, 02:01:56 PM
62,000 CAP members are not required to wear them. I wear a flight suit 80% of the time that I am in a CAP uniform. If all 62,000 members were required to wear BDU's on a regular full time basis, we might have some sway in keeping them being produced.
I'd bet less than 40% of the membership
wear camo BDU's, with a big chunk of them being cadets.
Not all cadets have BDUs, and only a very small percentage have more than one set. Further, the tempo at which CAP wears them
makes them last forever. I still have serviceable uniforms from 1999.
Quote from: Thrashed on November 05, 2011, 02:27:42 PMEven if 1/2 of the 62,000 members owned more than one set of BDU's; its still 62,000+ uniforms. I only have two sets of BDU's myself. Cadets going to camp are required to have about 4 sets of them (my daughter did). It's enough profit for someone to make them.
Cadets going to encampments are not "required to have 4 sets".
Quote from: Thrashed on November 05, 2011, 02:29:52 PM
Quote from: ironputts on November 05, 2011, 02:04:36 PM
FACTS:
3. BDU supplies (boots, belts, hats etc.) will be strained in the future.
Fact? I don't think so.
+1 another - this is nonsense.
Way back, when dinosaurs walked the earth and there were still CAP planes without training wheels on the front, the AF dropped the 1505 tan uniform ("pinks"). CAP still used 1505s, of course eventually they became cadet-only and finally dropped out of the manual entirely -- but during that entire time, the pinks were considered a USAF uniform standard.
Then, after a while, fatigues went through the process. Again, at each stage, they were considered a USAF uniform standard.
I can't imagine the BDU being given any different treatment.
Quote from: Thrashed on November 05, 2011, 01:47:15 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 05, 2011, 04:42:17 AM
Quote from: titanII on November 05, 2011, 02:56:59 AM
CAP still wears BDU's...
CAP is not a major mil-spec BDU user.
62,000 members is enough to keep them coming.
Not hardly. Even if everyone in CAP wore them and bought a new set every year, that's only something like a couple of weeks' worth of production to handle the entire need until we go to ABU.
What WILL keep them coming is demand in other markets (USCG, civilian and foreign), and I expect them to stay in production until it no longer matters to us.
Quote from: Buzz on November 05, 2011, 05:12:13 PMI expect them to stay in production until it no longer matters to us.
Agreed.
Quote from: ironputts on November 05, 2011, 02:04:36 PM
FACTS:
6. All CAP uniform changes must be approved by the Air Force.
It was not always that way, until the CSU fiasco.
THOUGHTS and QUESTIONS:1. The Air Force (Defense Department) is looking to move away from the ABU to something else so I dont see CAP getting ABU anytime soon or more importantly ever.
[/quote]
Agreed, echoed by most of the AF personnel I know. My unit has dual status CAP/ANG members. I do not expect to
ever get ABU's.
Quote from: ironputts on November 05, 2011, 02:04:36 PM
2. What is the relationship between a military organization (USAF) and a civilian non-profit organization (CAP) regarding similiar wear of uniforms? (Take the side of the Air Force rather than CAP and provide your thoughts)
I don't think the Air Force
cares, as long as misguided CAP officers aren't trolling for salutes. :o Most of the Air Force (younger ones, anyway) don't even know who we are.
Quote from: ironputts on November 05, 2011, 02:04:36 PM
3. What would happen if we go to a non-military uniform? Would it effect any of our missions?
We already have three non-military field uniforms: blue utility jumpsuit, blue NOMEX flightsuit and blue BDU's.
Quote from: ironputts on November 05, 2011, 02:04:36 PM
4. What if we choose a miltary uniform that doesnt emulate the Air Force uniform? (Take the side of the Air Force again and provide your thoughts)
After the CSU debacle, General Courter made it clear that any uniform cannot be military-styled...which can mean almost anything, but what it
really means, to me anyway, is that the status quo is the only acceptable uniform. That means anything not looking like a mall cop, a Realtor or an EMT (no offence to any of those)
ist verboten, as is any colour except grey, grey, grey, grey. ::) >:(
Quote from: ironputts on November 05, 2011, 02:04:36 PM
5. I believe our relationship with the Air Force will change as the Air Force has made it clear it wants a distinction. The distinction can be discussed here or started on another POST.
"Relationship?" Those in the AF who even know who we
are often just see us as a bunch of old people trolling for salutes and a source of warm bodies for Lackland AFB. It wasn't always that way; I've seen it devolve into this over the past almost 20 years.
The "distinction" is anything but "clear." "Low light/at a distance" is nonsensical and empirically undefinable. CAP leadership response to that is...you guessed it...grey!
There will be no new service uniform that has any shade of blue, nor one that is not a minor variation on the grey/white/blazer.Quote from: ironputts on November 05, 2011, 02:04:36 PM
6. The Air Force also made it clear it wants CAP to remain a strong organization and provide our three missions. We are a valued organization to the Air Force and to this nation.
To those in the AF who even know who we are and don't see us in the two categories in item #5.
Quote from: ironputts on November 05, 2011, 02:04:36 PM
7. To serve in a volunteer organization with the missions of CAP will always be my honor and priviledge.
It has always been mine as well, but I have seen more changes in the organisation that have been for ill rather than good.
Quote from: CyBorg on November 05, 2011, 05:58:00 PM
"Relationship?" Those in the AF who even know who we are often just see us as a bunch of old people trolling for salutes and a source of warm bodies for Lackland AFB. It wasn't always that way; I've seen it devolve into this over the past almost 20 years.
I remember joining 20 years ago while Active Duty Army. I remember everyone complaining about the "berry boards". 20 years later we are complaining about the "grey boards". We are a distinct organization and the Air Force will continue to have us distinct in what we wear.
I ran into two active duty Captains while at Maxwell AFB 2 weeks ago. I asked them did they mind CAP members wearing their uniforms. They both looked at me and said they didnt. My years of experience showed me they did mind. They also didnt want to be rude and were courteous which I appreciated greatly. I then asked in their years while in the Air Force were they taught about CAP and they said they were not. They did not ask me any questions and I thanked them for their time and wished them luck in their careers.
I had a great time at Maxwell and met many CAP and Air Force personnel. All were courteous to each other and I did not observe one CAP member trolling for salutes! Most wore their uniforms well and a successful NSC in my eyes! I suggest all CAP members attend this experience!
Quote from: ironputts on November 05, 2011, 07:24:26 PMI ran into two active duty Captains while at Maxwell AFB 2 weeks ago. I asked them did they mind CAP members wearing their uniforms.
How does that conversation even come up? Why would we care?
Our uniforms are a product of our parent service, they are what they are, why would the opinion of random "anybody" make a tinker's difference?
I do my job and expect common respect based on
my performance, not somebody's personal misunderstanding about what CAP is (or isn't).
I'm eager to engage in a discussion with anyone interested in CAP, but I'm not walking around with my hat in my hand hoping people will
like me just because they happen to be in the USAF (or any other service).
This idea people get in their heads, that "volunteer = lesser" needs to end. It is different. Period.
Quote from: ironputts on November 05, 2011, 07:24:26 PM
I remember joining 20 years ago while Active Duty Army. I remember everyone complaining about the "berry boards". 20 years later we are complaining about the "grey boards". We are a distinct organization and the Air Force will continue to have us distinct in what we wear.
Don't actually hear a whole lot of complaining about them, even here where everybody complains about everything. While there are some who would like to go back to blue, they aren't seen as some sort of badge of shame (and just downright ugly) like the berry boards.
Quote from: RiverAux on November 05, 2011, 07:48:50 PM
Quote from: ironputts on November 05, 2011, 07:24:26 PM
I remember joining 20 years ago while Active Duty Army. I remember everyone complaining about the "berry boards". 20 years later we are complaining about the "grey boards". We are a distinct organization and the Air Force will continue to have us distinct in what we wear.
Don't actually hear a whole lot of complaining about them, even here where everybody complains about everything. While there are some who would like to go back to blue, they aren't seen as some sort of badge of shame (and just downright ugly) like the berry boards.
Except, Colonel, that what is "distinctive" and what is not can vary depending on who you ask. The AFI mandating "distinctiveness" is about as clear as mud.
The reason we lost blue boards and hard rank was because of (depending on who you ask) bad behaviour on the part of a former Nat CC and some bad actors trying to give orders to AF personnel. We're still being punished for that. If someone cannot tell from "CAP" on blue boards and the blue three-line tag that we are who we are...who owns the problem? It's not us, though we've been made to believe it is.
We wore almost-identical analogues to the AF uniform for decades before this "distinctiveness" Bravo Sierra was floated and it didn't do any harm.
It is inexcusable that two officers were not taught about us. It wasn't always that way. I don't go asking AF personnel about us. In fact, I interact with them as little as possible (which I didn't always do) other than saluting/greeting when required because over the years their reaction to us has gone from camaraderie to very often the cold shoulder. I don't want to do anything that's going to be misinterpreted by some E-2 who will write to the
Air Force Times about some "wannabe CAP guy." My experience is that the Army, Navy, Marines and Coast Guard are
much more cordial to us.
RiverAux is correct in that there haven't been a lot of complaints about the grey boards; however, a sizeable chunk of our current membership haven't
known anything else. The berry boards were an abomination and a punitive measure comparable to being told back in grade school to bend over and grab your ankles. The grey boards were/are an analogue to being given Band-Aids to put on the wounds inflicted by the berry boards. They
do look a sight better than the bog-awful berry boards. I threw my berry boards away as soon as the grey ones were authorised.
I actually have drafted a formal proposal for both a new CAP-distinctive uniform and for modifications to the AF uniform but there's no way I'll forward them up the chain because I know they'll get turned down, because they're not grey.
Quote from: ironputts on November 05, 2011, 07:24:26 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on November 05, 2011, 05:58:00 PM
"Relationship?" Those in the AF who even know who we are often just see us as a bunch of old people trolling for salutes and a source of warm bodies for Lackland AFB. It wasn't always that way; I've seen it devolve into this over the past almost 20 years.
I ran into two active duty Captains while at Maxwell AFB 2 weeks ago. I asked them did they mind CAP members wearing their uniforms. They both looked at me and said they didnt. My years of experience showed me they did mind. They also didnt want to be rude and were courteous which I appreciated greatly. I then asked in their years while in the Air Force were they taught about CAP and they said they were not. They did not ask me any questions and I thanked them for their time and wished them luck in their careers.
Who cares what those two captains think of CAP members wearing OUR uniform. Those two officers have ZERO say in whatever we do. Congress gave us permission to perform our duties and wear the uniforms. Even if those two captains despised us, that's too bad for them.
I know I hated things when I was on active duty (and I am sure every service member here hated one thing or another) but i put up with it, and went about my day.
I really hate to say this, but actions like that make CAP look poor overall. That type of conversation does not need to be happening with captains or anyone below general officer/secretary AF. Those captains follow orders just like everyone else (including CAP).
Quote from: CyBorg on November 05, 2011, 05:58:00 PM
After the CSU debacle, General Courter made it clear that any uniform cannot be military-styled...which can mean almost anything, but what it really means, to me anyway, is that the status quo is the only acceptable uniform. That means anything not looking like a mall cop, a Realtor or an EMT (no offence to any of those) ist verboten, as is any colour except grey, grey, grey, grey. ::) >:(
Maybe they'll let us use the
color gray instead? >:D :angel:
Perhaps so, sir.
I drove my teachers mad in high school with my use of the Queen's English. I've been doing it for probably 40 years. Who the heck did Noah Webster think he was, anyway, replacing a system that worked with one full of inconsistencies? Why not change "neighbour" to "nabor" (as in Jim!) instead of "neighbor?" Or disallow movie houses that use "theatre" (instead of theater) or strip malls that use some permutation of "centre" in their name, rather than "center?"
I live near the Canadian border...watch a fair bit of CBC...have relatives there...go there not infrequently...friends in Australia...friends in UK...read far too much English literature, including a university class on Shakespeare but going way back to Thomas Hardy and Tolkien in childhood...I just use the system the wider Anglosphere uses (most of Canada, UK, Ireland, Australia, NZ, South Africa, India, Pakistan), that's all, out of personal choice. And, no, I don't use it in CAP correspondence! ;D
Now back to our regularly scheduled thread:
No, sir, I doubt they'd let us use anything than Webster's color gray, either.
Now off to make a nice cup of Earl Grey.
I hope the >:D :angel: implied the jest in the comment.
In a sense I was re-enforcing your comment that we can have any color we want for or corporate uniform as long that color is gray.
I don't get CBC here but I do like BBC America.
Grey vs. gray -
Either is correct. Most simply, Americans use grAy, and the English use grEy.
There are still LE agencies who utilize BDU's fpr SWAT and other teams, plus black boots are pretty much the norm for most agencies these days.
Quote from: CyBorg on November 06, 2011, 03:05:07 AM
I drove my teachers mad in high school with my use of the Queen's English.
Born in the UK to US Military folks, went to local early school there. When I moved (back) to the USA I made no pretence of being a brit, lost the foreign spelling, accent, etc.
As to uniforms, I only wear one type (BDU's) to field events, etc. Nothing aginest their wear but I find them to get in my way while doing my CAP job.
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 06, 2011, 08:23:54 PMNothing aginest their wear but I find them to get in my way while doing my CAP job.
What? You've said that twice now.
You're expected to wear an appropriate uniform anytime you are performing CAP duties, especially in an official capacity. I can see no way that they would "get in your way" as an IG.
"You're expected to wear an appropriate uniform anytime you are performing CAP duties, especially in an official capacity".
Actually, the wear of the uniform is not mandatory and remains at the desecration of command.
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 06, 2011, 11:37:50 PM
Actually, the wear of the uniform is not mandatory and remains at the desecration of command.
But how does the uniform get in the way of being an IG?
This isn't like OSI where you end up with the SSgt interrogating the Colonel. Even if you're only a 1st Lt. (I strongly suspect you're pretty new to CAP) since grade doesn't mean a whole lot there's no reason to hide it.
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 06, 2011, 11:37:50 PM
"You're expected to wear an appropriate uniform anytime you are performing CAP duties, especially in an official capacity".
Actually, the wear of the uniform is not mandatory and remains at the desecration discretion of command.
Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Table 1-1. Wearing the CAP Uniform(Wear) when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions (see note 1).
That looks pretty clear to me. Not mandatory, but expected.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 06, 2011, 08:29:58 PM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 06, 2011, 08:23:54 PMNothing aginest their wear but I find them to get in my way while doing my CAP job.
What? You've said that twice now.
You're expected to wear an appropriate uniform anytime you are performing CAP duties, especially in an official capacity. I can see no way that they would "get in your way" as an IG.
Apparently RM has a brother.
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 06, 2011, 11:37:50 PM
"You're expected to wear an appropriate uniform anytime you are performing CAP duties, especially in an official capacity".
Actually, the wear of the uniform is not mandatory and remains at the desecration of command.
Oh lord, please don't tell me this is going to turn into another "im undercover" BS talk...
An IG that does not know you must wear a uniform when on CAP business... sounds about right
>:D
Quote from: NCRblues on November 07, 2011, 12:15:26 AM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 06, 2011, 11:37:50 PM
"You're expected to wear an appropriate uniform anytime you are performing CAP duties, especially in an official capacity".
Actually, the wear of the uniform is not mandatory and remains at the desecration of command.
Oh lord, please don't tell me this is going to turn into another "im undercover" BS talk...
An IG that does not know you must wear a uniform when on CAP business... sounds about right
>:D
Maybe it's for those "covert" visits to squadrons that RM was talking about awhile back.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on November 06, 2011, 11:55:29 PM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 06, 2011, 11:37:50 PM
Actually, the wear of the uniform is not mandatory and remains at the desecration of command.
But how does the uniform get in the way of being an IG?
This isn't like OSI where you end up with the SSgt interrogating the Colonel. Even if you're only a 1st Lt. (I strongly suspect you're pretty new to CAP) since grade doesn't mean a whole lot there's no reason to hide it.
It has little to do with whom I am interviewing/investigating but rather "where" I'm interviewing them. Grade is never a consideration except when it involves an abuse of authority.
This has NOTHING about being undercover, or a CIA, I mean CAP spy, or anything of that silly nature.
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 07, 2011, 12:24:08 AM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on November 06, 2011, 11:55:29 PM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 06, 2011, 11:37:50 PM
Actually, the wear of the uniform is not mandatory and remains at the desecration of command.
But how does the uniform get in the way of being an IG?
This isn't like OSI where you end up with the SSgt interrogating the Colonel. Even if you're only a 1st Lt. (I strongly suspect you're pretty new to CAP) since grade doesn't mean a whole lot there's no reason to hide it.
It has little to do with whom I am interviewing/investigating but rather "where" I'm interviewing them. Grade is never a consideration except when it involves an abuse of authority.
This has NOTHING about being undercover, or a CIA, I mean CAP spy, or anything of that silly nature.
So what DOES it have to do with? I'm really, truly curious and not trying to harass you.
"So what DOES it have to do with? I'm really, truly curious and not trying to harass you".
I do wear my BDUs at most CAP functions to be sure, but a lot of my IG interviews are arranged at locations away from the usual areas where the CAP meets. I always meet the interviewees at public locations like a local coffee shop or their office and a low key non-pressure situation is always desirable. And there is the "force protection" issue what with CAP uniforms in public at non-related to CAP activities locations, and a unlikely as it seems, there is that to consider as related to me by command.
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 07, 2011, 12:42:32 AM
"So what DOES it have to do with? I'm really, truly curious and not trying to harass you".
I do wear my BDUs at most CAP functions to be sure, but a lot of my IG interviews are arranged at locations away from the usual areas where the CAP meets. I always meet the interviewees at public locations like a local coffee shop or their office and a low key non-pressure situation is always desirable. And there is the "force protection" issue what with CAP uniforms in public at non-related to CAP activities locations, and a unlikely as it seems, there is that to consider as related to me by command.
Seems like the others are just giving you a hard time, and overdoing it by comparing you to RM.
Seems like the others are just giving you a hard time, and overdoing it by comparing you to RM.
The old saying "consider the source" is so true when it comes to these type forums. There is a whole new forensic science dealing with it.
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 07, 2011, 12:42:32 AM
"So what DOES it have to do with? I'm really, truly curious and not trying to harass you".
I do wear my BDUs at most CAP functions to be sure, but a lot of my IG interviews are arranged at locations away from the usual areas where the CAP meets. I always meet the interviewees at public locations like a local coffee shop or their office and a low key non-pressure situation is always desirable. And there is the "force protection" issue what with CAP uniforms in public at non-related to CAP activities locations, and a unlikely as it seems, there is that to consider as related to me by command.
Your justification for not wearing a uniform when conducting investigations is force protection? Seriously?
"Your justification for not wearing a uniform when conducting investigations is force protection? Seriously?"
As expected, you took one small part of the post, bent it out of context with your usual sarcasm.
Actually Eclipse, it was not offered as a "justification" as none is needed. It is a professional decision that is supported by command, "seriously".
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 07, 2011, 05:27:11 AM
"Your justification for not wearing a uniform when conducting investigations is force protection? Seriously?"
As expected, you took one small part of the post, bent it out of context with your usual sarcasm.
Actually Eclipse, it was not offered as a "justification" as none is needed. It is a professional decision that is supported by command, "seriously".
What "command" supports you in not wearing a uniform when conducting an investigation? Because the regulations (which is COMMAND) says you must wear a uniform when conducting CAP business...so....
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 07, 2011, 05:27:11 AM
"Your justification for not wearing a uniform when conducting investigations is force protection? Seriously?"
As expected, you took one small part of the post, bent it out of context with your usual sarcasm.
Actually Eclipse, it was not offered as a "justification" as none is needed. It is a professional decision that is supported by command, "seriously".
"Command", seriously... I really doubt that the Wing Commander (to who you report directly) has told you to violate regulations while you are "investigating" regulation violations.
The IG is NOT above the regulations. And if you think you are then it's time for you to move on.
Deep sigh... Why bother. But read the "Great Start" booklet for adults, page 4, FAQ "Do members have to wear a uniform", as well as the regs.
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 07, 2011, 05:46:42 AM
Deep sigh... Why bother.
Ya, that's because you don't have an answer. You're a troll and a fraud.
BTW, what year did you become a "fed", and what year did you "retire" as a fed? What year did you become a "state" cop? What year did you join the army and get your GED?
Quote from: NCRblues on November 07, 2011, 05:53:08 AM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 07, 2011, 05:46:42 AM
Deep sigh... Why bother.
Ya, that's because you don't have an answer. You're a troll and a fraud.
BTW, what year did you become a "fed", and what year did you "retire" as a fed? What year did you become a "state" cop? What year did you join the army and get your GED?
Yeah right, on-line insults. The refugee of someone who has no other interpersonal skills so you have to resort to name calling.
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 07, 2011, 06:00:44 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on November 07, 2011, 05:53:08 AM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 07, 2011, 05:46:42 AM
Deep sigh... Why bother.
Ya, that's because you don't have an answer. You're a troll and a fraud.
BTW, what year did you become a "fed", and what year did you "retire" as a fed? What year did you become a "state" cop? What year did you join the army and get your GED?
Yeah right, on-line insults. The refugee of someone who has no other interpersonal skills so you have to resort to name calling.
No answer again...
Lets make a list of things "you have done" or claim to have done
went into the army in Vietnam and got your GED
became either CID or something else that didn't have to wear rank on the uniform
95b and 97b
made it to at least an NCO grade in the army (so, more than one enlistment)
law enforcement for over 30 years (33 you said in one post)
became a local cop
became a federal agent
went to school on the GI bill
was admitted to the BAR
retired as a fed
became a "state cop"
joined CAP
was in coast guard aux
Thats a lot of stuff...when did you have time to sleep?
dont forget made WO-1 and was still able to join CAP as an NCO..
NCRBlues is not worth responding to, but I will respond to tsrup: My warrent was in the state guard and does not count in the CAP.
NCRBlues: Do your math, I'm almost 60 so those accomplishments allowed me plenty of time to sleep.
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 07, 2011, 06:18:02 AM
NCRBlues is not worth responding to, but I will respond to tsrup: My warrent was in the state guard and does not count in the CAP.
NCRBlues: Do your math, I'm almost 60 so those accomplishments allowed me plenty of time to sleep.
Oh I was confused because this is what you posted:
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on September 14, 2011, 11:08:18 PM
Now for some "soap boxing":
1. My SSG chevrons came at a much higher price in training, responsibility and developing leadership skills/experience (And in some ways, mean more then my WO status in the real military). They took three regular and one Nat' Guard years and a lot of training to earn. You can be a CAP 1st LT in 6 months.
Quote from: tsrup on November 07, 2011, 06:23:05 AM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 07, 2011, 06:18:02 AM
NCRBlues is not worth responding to, but I will respond to tsrup: My warrent was in the state guard and does not count in the CAP.
NCRBlues: Do your math, I'm almost 60 so those accomplishments allowed me plenty of time to sleep.
Oh I was confused because this is what you posted:
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on September 14, 2011, 11:08:18 PM
Now for some "soap boxing":
1. My SSG chevrons came at a much higher price in training, responsibility and developing leadership skills/experience (And in some ways, mean more then my WO status in the real military). They took three regular and one Nat' Guard years and a lot of training to earn. You can be a CAP 1st LT in 6 months.
That is confusing. My bad, The line should read "state military". And for those ready to jump on, state guard commissions and warrants are accepted by the reg army as long as they follow the promotion guidelines. If you read the correction it makes more sense. Hard to proof read when you do it on a phone.
Face it dude, you've made one claim too many . . .
Quote from: PHall on November 07, 2011, 06:35:04 AM
Face it dude, you've made one claim too many . . .
And yet, I seem to know alot about what I have said, so I must have do a lot of research just to feel important here, or maybe in almost 60 years I have done a few more things then 20 something year olds, dude.
I guess I will have to add "state military" (whatever that is) to my list of your accomplishments...
This just reads as a classic case of the trolls.
A post is made about a unique situation, you claim to have first hand experience with that unique situation, then you internalize it and flame anyone who posts negatively about it.
And any attempt at getting answers about who you are really is met with hostility.
So, Hardshell,
why don't you quell the mob with the pitchforks.
Introduce yourself.
Quote from: PHall on November 07, 2011, 06:35:04 AMFace it dude, you've made one clam too many . . .
8)
Quote from: tsrup on November 07, 2011, 06:45:48 AM
This just reads as a classic case of the trolls.
A post is made about a unique situation, you claim to have first hand experience with that unique situation, then you internalize it and flame anyone who posts negatively about it.
And any attempt at getting answers about who you are really is met with hostility.
So, Hardshell,
why don't you quell the mob with the pitchforks.
Introduce yourself.
In truth, I did become defensive didn't I?
Quote from: NCRblues on November 07, 2011, 05:34:23 AMWhat "command" supports you in not wearing a uniform when conducting an investigation? Because the regulations (which is COMMAND) says you must wear a uniform when conducting CAP business...so....
Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Table 1-1. Wearing the CAP Uniform(Wear) when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions (see note 1).
What's your source for "must"?
Quote from: SarDragon on November 07, 2011, 06:49:21 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on November 07, 2011, 05:34:23 AMWhat "command" supports you in not wearing a uniform when conducting an investigation? Because the regulations (which is COMMAND) says you must wear a uniform when conducting CAP business...so....
Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Table 1-1. Wearing the CAP Uniform(Wear) when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions (see note 1).
What's your source for "must"?
I got all hot and bothered and forgot it said
"Members are required to wear a uniform when participating in or conducting the cadet program or when flying in CAP aircraft "
My bad, I was wrong on that one
Quote from: NCRblues on November 07, 2011, 06:54:06 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on November 07, 2011, 06:49:21 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on November 07, 2011, 05:34:23 AMWhat "command" supports you in not wearing a uniform when conducting an investigation? Because the regulations (which is COMMAND) says you must wear a uniform when conducting CAP business...so....
Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Table 1-1. Wearing the CAP Uniform(Wear) when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions (see note 1).
What's your source for "must"?
I got all hot and bothered and forgot it said
"Members are required to wear a uniform when participating in or conducting the cadet program or when flying in CAP aircraft "
My bad, I was wrong on that one
"...when participating in or conducting the cadet program or when flying in CAP aircraft" and "you must wear a uniform when conducting CAP business" are not identical situations, hence my question.
Quote from: NCRblues on November 07, 2011, 06:54:06 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on November 07, 2011, 06:49:21 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on November 07, 2011, 05:34:23 AMWhat "command" supports you in not wearing a uniform when conducting an investigation? Because the regulations (which is COMMAND) says you must wear a uniform when conducting CAP business...so....
Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Table 1-1. Wearing the CAP Uniform(Wear) when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions (see note 1).
What's your source for "must"?
I got all hot and bothered and forgot it said
"Members are required to wear a uniform when participating in or conducting the cadet program or when flying in CAP aircraft "
My bad, I was wrong on that one
That is how I read the regs. No worries.
Quote from: NCRblues on November 07, 2011, 06:44:50 AM
I guess I will have to add "state military" (whatever that is) to my list of your accomplishments...
Here ya go, this will explain "whatever that is" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Defense_Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Defense_Force)
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 07, 2011, 07:08:10 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on November 07, 2011, 06:44:50 AM
I guess I will have to add "state military" (whatever that is) to my list of your accomplishments...
Here ya go, this will explain "whatever that is" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Defense_Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Defense_Force)
I was being facetious, because you could have just said SDF not "state military".... ::)
Quote from: NCRblues on November 07, 2011, 07:11:29 AM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 07, 2011, 07:08:10 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on November 07, 2011, 06:44:50 AM
I guess I will have to add "state military" (whatever that is) to my list of your accomplishments...
Here ya go, this will explain "whatever that is" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Defense_Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Defense_Force)
I was being facetious, because you could have just said SDF not "state military".... ::)
.
It is also known as the "State Military Reserves". We tended not to use the "reserve" name as it confused folks
Just a point of order -- State Defense Forces are REAL military forces. They are just under state, rather than federal control.
Quote from: tsrup on November 07, 2011, 06:23:05 AM
Oh I was confused because this is what you posted:
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on September 14, 2011, 11:08:18 PM
Now for some "soap boxing":
1. My SSG chevrons came at a much higher price in training, responsibility and developing leadership skills/experience (And in some ways, mean more then my WO status in the real military). They took three regular and one Nat' Guard years and a lot of training to earn. You can be a CAP 1st LT in 6 months.
Looks pretty clear to me -- he was RA for three years, was in NG for a year before getting his warrant. In the Viet Nam era, this is completely within the realm of possibility.
And, FYI, the National Guard IS "real military," having been Federalized during WWI.
That said, I was under the impression that NG grades were recognized by CAP. I remember a WO in my squadron back in the 1970s who held that grade because he was a Guardie.
Quote from: Buzz on November 07, 2011, 06:35:33 PM
And, FYI, the National Guard IS "real military," having been Federalized during WWI.
That said, I was under the impression that NG grades were recognized by CAP.
True and true. SDFs are not national guard though. Some have membership standards that are no tighter than our own. CAP does not recognize their ranks for a dual hatter.
Quote from: phirons on November 06, 2011, 03:49:49 PM
I hope the >:D :angel: implied the jest in the comment.
In a sense I was re-enforcing your comment that we can have any color we want for or corporate uniform as long that color is gray.
I don't get CBC here but I do like BBC America.
I caught your irony, sir...and CAP's attitude toward non-AF uniforms sort of reminds me of Henry Ford's original Model T: any colour you like, as long as it's black.
CAP seems to have latched on to grey, and why I shall never know. Nothing in our history that I have seen has indicated any real connection to grey.
We might as well adopt Air America style uniforms...but that would be too far from the status quo, and someone would probably say "it's too military and not distinctive enough in low light/at-a-distance." ::) >:(
(http://www.air-america.net/images/AAM/uniforms/uniform.jpg)
(http://www.air-america.net/images/AAM/uniforms/classa-2.jpg)
(http://www.air-america.net/images/AAM/uniforms/hjack.jpg)
Quote from: CyBorg on November 07, 2011, 11:53:30 PM
Quote from: phirons on November 06, 2011, 03:49:49 PM
I hope the >:D :angel: implied the jest in the comment.
In a sense I was re-enforcing your comment that we can have any color we want for or corporate uniform as long that color is gray.
I don't get CBC here but I do like BBC America.
I caught your irony, sir...and CAP's attitude toward non-AF uniforms sort of reminds me of Henry Ford's original Model T: any colour you like, as long as it's black.
CAP seems to have latched on to grey, and why I shall never know. Nothing in our history that I have seen has indicated any real connection to grey.
We might as well adopt Air America style uniforms...but that would be too far from the status quo, and someone would probably say "it's too military and not distinctive enough in low light/at-a-distance." ::) >:(
(http://www.air-america.net/images/AAM/uniforms/uniform.jpg)
(http://www.air-america.net/images/AAM/uniforms/classa-2.jpg)
(http://www.air-america.net/images/AAM/uniforms/hjack.jpg)
I would buy a grey service dress in a New York Minute if CAP would standardize the cut and color and give it a military appearance and allow for all awards and decorations that are authorized for wear on the AF Style to be worn..
Not going to hold my breath though..............
^^That's a healthy attitude, about not holding your breath. :P
I rarely make "never" statements, but this time I will say it will never happen; that is, a CAP-distinctive uniform that isn't an infinitesimally minor variation on the Realtor/mall cop/EMT options we have now.
Glad to see that this thread has gotten back on track. G'day.
With the white aviator shirt and gray slacks. I'd like to be able to wear a Kingform Army white service cap with it. Replace the cap emblem with a gold version of the CAP cap emblem. :)
(http://www.kingformcap.com/awc3.gif)
(http://www.kingformcap.com/awc4.gif)
That look would remind me a little of West Point cadets.
(http://blogs.hudsonvalley.com/file/import/e33160ce-21e7-444f-a8a9-eab365844d18.jpeg)
Please no... The aviator really doesn't need headgear. Blues really don't need headgear either, but we don't have a whole lot of choice about that.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on November 08, 2011, 07:40:32 PM
Please no... The aviator really doesn't need headgear. Blues really don't need headgear either, but we don't have a whole lot of choice about that.
I would like it, and you wouldn't have to wear it if you didn't want to :)
Quote from: BradM on November 08, 2011, 07:34:12 PM
With the white aviator shirt and gray slacks. I'd like to be able to wear a Kingform Army white service cap with it. Replace the cap emblem with a gold version of the CAP cap emblem. :)
(http://www.kingformcap.com/awc3.gif)
(http://www.kingformcap.com/awc4.gif)
That look would remind me a little of West Point cadets.
(http://blogs.hudsonvalley.com/file/import/e33160ce-21e7-444f-a8a9-eab365844d18.jpeg)
I actually created something similar with my old MP white service cap. With a black chinstrap the standard CAP service cap device looks just fine....
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on November 08, 2011, 07:40:32 PM
Please no... The aviator really doesn't need headgear. Blues really don't need headgear either, but we don't have a whole lot of choice about that.
Is it that you don't like hats?
It'll never happen, but this would be my choice, all made by Bernard Cap:
(http://www.bernardcap.com/caps/thumbnails/oldAcademy/academy3.jpg)
West Point garrison cap, made by Bernard Cap
(http://www.bernardcap.com/caps/thumbnails/oldForeignMil/foreign8.jpg)
Listed as "foreign military," also by Bernard Cap
(http://www.bernardcap.com/caps/thumbnails/oldAirline/Airline2.jpg)
Airline Officer's Cap (2nd Lt-Captain)
(http://www.bernardcap.com/caps/thumbnails/oldAirline/Airline5.jpg)
Airline Captain's Cap (Maj-Col)
(http://www.bernardcap.com/caps/thumbnails/oldvisors/V55540ArmyBln.jpg)
Replacement visor for Generals
But somebody, please, Please, PLEASE get rid of the Realtor jacket (blazer)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, I KNOW it's cheap, especially if you get it at Salvation Army, Goodwill or St. Vince's...but it is very NON-AVIATION. When I see it, I think of Century 21, RE/MAX, etc (I used to work in the real estate industry).
I would be over the moon to be able to wear something like this:
(http://www.tallyhouniforms.com/images/pictures/pilotjackets/pjacket5545.jpg)
Airline aircrew uniform jacket, available from Tally-Ho uniforms...
and it's available in charcoal grey, to keep the grey zealots appeased! We wouldn't have to use the sleeve striping, either...the current Realtor jacket nameplate with grade would suffice, but deep-six the pocket protector!!!
WHITE HATS SUCK!
I spent 21 years wearing them in one form or another, and that would be my very last choice for a hat color. They get dirty VERY quickly, and "wear out" much sooner because of the frequent cleaning.
Just say no to white hats.
Quote from: SarDragon on November 08, 2011, 09:52:21 PM
WHITE HATS SUCK!
Just say no to white hats.
+1
Now I may not have as much experience with white hats as SarDragon ;), but I can attest to this nonetheless. No White Hats!
Quote from: SarDragon on November 08, 2011, 09:52:21 PM
WHITE HATS SUCK!
I spent 21 years wearing them in one form or another, and that would be my very last choice for a hat color. They get dirty VERY quickly, and "wear out" much sooner because of the frequent cleaning.
Just say no to white hats.
It could be a gray hat instead with either the gold strap and gold emblem or the silver strap and silver emblem (the one we currently put on the Air Force cap), or a black strap with either color emblem. The silver one we already can get easily. If no one really likes the gold on the white/gray combo.
(http://combat.ws/S4/MILTERMS/IMAGES/USMA1CAP.JPG)
Then a gray four pocket tunic with matching buttons (silver or gold) and matching gray pants. The gray could be the same color as the epaulets or I like better no epaulates and using metal insignia. We could have the U.S. letters on the lapels or the C.A.P. letters. I like the U.S. letters better. Then CAP ribbons and badges, & name tag.
Quote from: CyBorg on November 08, 2011, 09:34:21 PM
But somebody, please, Please, PLEASE get rid of the Realtor jacket (blazer)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, I KNOW it's cheap, especially if you get it at Salvation Army, Goodwill or St. Vince's...but it is very NON-AVIATION. When I see it, I think of Century 21, RE/MAX, etc (I used to work in the real estate industry).
I would be over the moon to be able to wear something like this:
(http://www.tallyhouniforms.com/images/pictures/pilotjackets/pjacket5545.jpg)
Airline aircrew uniform jacket, available from Tally-Ho uniforms...and it's available in charcoal grey, to keep the grey zealots appeased! We wouldn't have to use the sleeve striping, either...the current Realtor jacket nameplate with grade would suffice, but deep-six the pocket protector!!!
And this without the sleeve stripes is different from the current blazer how exactly? The pocket protector is a travesty. The proper way to wear a crest on the blazer is to either sew it on or use a pin on version.
The pocket protector thing is absolutely ghetto. Plain and simple. It just looks AWFUL.
How about for the white shirt and gray pants we have this hat with the CAP emblem and then a jacket that matches the pants like the Germans are using?
(http://combat.ws/S4/MILTERMS/IMAGES/USMA1CAP.JPG)
(http://et2705.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/tapferkeit-bundeswehr.jpg)
^^Except that General Courter made it clear in her ICL that the corporate uniform will NOT be of a "military type."
That means that whatever comes out of the uniform think tank can only be a minor variation on what now exists. >:( :-X
I always thought we looked more East German in the G/W...at least in the shade of grey.
(http://sturm-miltec.com/images/East%20German%20Items/19353200.jpg)
arajca: I used that example SOLELY because it is available in CHARCOAL GREY, to appease the grey, grey, grey zealots and because it is readily, commercially available.
My first preference would be for the Air America type or this:
(http://www.field-shops.com/fieldshop/assets/product_images/PAAAAAPFJEGJGCGHt.jpg)
(Yes, I know it's blue, but so is the blazer!)
I loathe the blazer; I know others disagree with me but it's just my opinion.
BradM: I don't see being allowed the "U.S." devices on a corporate uniform, because of mixing civilian/military, nor allowing military ribbons for the same reason.
I vote "no hats" of any kind.
We also do not need new uniform choices or changes. Enough is enough!
I think it's interesting people are talking about several completely different sets of uniforms. One set for seniors and ignoring the cadets. Cadets will remain in Air Force style uniforms. Seniors will go to some sort of non-military uniform and there will be no uniformity with seniors in flight suits, BBDUs, or whatever. Let the uniform committee come up with something that ALL seniors could wear and you'll still get people show up at meetings in several variations none of which look professional.
Quote from: Thrashed on November 09, 2011, 12:04:03 PM
I vote "no hats" of any kind.
Why?
Quote from: Thrashed on November 09, 2011, 12:04:03 PM
We also do not need new uniform choices or changes. Enough is enough!
Sooo...the many CAP members who loathe the current options and the way the CSU was pulled out from under us just have to "suck it up?"
Yet another uniform option? Nah. I'll pass. A transition to something once and for all, with a generous phase out period knowing that at the "end" we'll actually have the chance to be more uniform, I'll go with that.
Quote from: BradM on November 09, 2011, 03:42:07 AM
How about for the white shirt and gray pants we have this hat with the CAP emblem and then a jacket that matches the pants like the Germans are using?
(http://combat.ws/S4/MILTERMS/IMAGES/USMA1CAP.JPG)
(http://et2705.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/tapferkeit-bundeswehr.jpg)
The only reason why I would like the gray hat with the gray tunic like the Germans above have on the left. The darker shade of gray is because most of the year I have a goatee. I'm in weight standards and my hair cut is in grooming standards. I don't like the Air Force mustache being so small ending with the verticle lines at the edges of the mouth. I shaved my goatee one time to a mustache and I didnt like it very much. So I grew it back. I might do it again next year at the CA Wing Conference and when I go to the CLC. Then grow it back again. For the gray tunic like on the left we could have the C.A.P. letters at the collars. Metal insignia is prefered but if not approved then the slip on epaulettes would be the same color as the tunic. Our CAP only ribbons and metal badges and wings. The buttons could be the CAP coat of arms. The belt could be a black elastic belt with a silver buckle under the jacket on the trousers, not on top of the jacket. Thats what I'd like to wear with a trimmed goatee. :)
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on November 08, 2011, 07:40:32 PM
Please no... The aviator really doesn't need headgear.
You don't fly much, do you?
I'm my planes I wear an HGU-55.
In other people's planes, I either wear a ball cap or (as appropriate) a 50-mission crush.
CAP needs to put a 50-mission crush into 39-1. ;)
Wasn't there a study a few years back that showed there would be a major increase in light aircraft pilot survival if helmets were worn? Besides, you guys just don't look "top gun" enough in a plain green bag!
Major Lord
Quote from: Buzz on November 09, 2011, 06:37:57 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on November 08, 2011, 07:40:32 PM
Please no... The aviator really doesn't need headgear.
You don't fly much, do you?
I'm my planes I wear an HGU-55.
In other people's planes, I either wear a ball cap or (as appropriate) a 50-mission crush.
CAP needs to put a 50-mission crush into 39-1. ;)
Buzz, I think Spaceman was referring to the aviator
uniform not "needing" headgear...but props on the 50-mission crush!
(http://wiki.cadetstuff.org/images/thumb/d/df/IMG_7018.jpg/300px-IMG_7018.jpg)
(http://www.acmedepot.com/images/blue_front4.jpg)
(http://www.danielsww2.com/sitebuilder/images/DSC_0107-435x330.jpg)
(http://www.aquamarineantiques.co.uk/wpimages/wpc6d45c63_05_06.jpg)
(Doubtless someone will point out that none of them are grey... ::))
I'd buy into the crush as long as the requirement was that it be approved for wear only after 50 missions.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 09, 2011, 07:19:33 PM
I'd buy into the crush as long as the requirement was that it be approved for wear only after 50 missions.
Aircrew or GT? ;D
Quote from: CyBorg on November 09, 2011, 07:19:58 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 09, 2011, 07:19:33 PM
I'd buy into the crush as long as the requirement was that it be approved for wear only after 50 missions.
Aircrew or GT? ;D
Yeah, no kidding...
Quote from: Eclipse on November 09, 2011, 07:39:14 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on November 09, 2011, 07:19:58 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 09, 2011, 07:19:33 PM
I'd buy into the crush as long as the requirement was that it be approved for wear only after 50 missions.
Aircrew or GT? ;D
Yeah, no kidding...
GT has an equivalent, the "Ranger Roll" LOL I have even seen folks Ranger Roll a ball cap!
Here's an idea... Let's keep on doing our jobs without doing silly thing to our hats.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on November 09, 2011, 08:45:05 PM
Here's an idea... Let's keep on doing our jobs without doing silly thing to our hats.
Yes please.
I think the "Village People" had a hat just like that crushed one.....
Major Lord
Quote from: Major Lord on November 09, 2011, 09:29:44 PM
I think the "Village People" had a hat just like that crushed one.....
Major Lord
I think their "leatherman" wore a black leather version of it...
My Squadron commander heard that Nationals is authorizing ABU's possibly within a year.
Quote from: Munkers on November 10, 2011, 05:19:20 AMMy Squadron commander heard that Nationals is authorizing ABU's possibly within a year.
Ah the old "heard it from a friend's twice removed's best man six wedding's ago.. ;)
"in a year ... " they MIGHT have a meeting about it.
When you have it in the know from people right on this very forum that are actually involved in the *recommendation* only, and that is just on our level. Doesn't matter what we think, it's what they think. Glaciers move faster unless it's a liability. Then we might move a little faster.
Hello i'm new to cap talk and if anyone knows when will we be getting ABU i have herd somany date i do not no what is the truth so if anyone can help that wood be great
thank you
PM sent.
Quote from: wevleyaviation on November 10, 2011, 07:56:02 AM
Hello i'm new to cap talk and if anyone knows when will we be getting ABU i have herd somany date i do not no what is the truth so if anyone can help that wood be great
thank you
Wow, how old are you and what grade of school have you completed? That is by far the worse example of spelling, grammer, & word usage I have seen except for perhaps the garage sale sign I saw last weekend that read "Groge Sale!"
PM sent.
I doubt it. It seems like the other we was getting into BDUs. I think we should have stayed with the greens or fatigues.
Quote from: CyBorg on November 09, 2011, 07:10:41 PM
(http://www.acmedepot.com/images/blue_front4.jpg)
Is this available on eBay?
But seriously would anybody beef me for wearing it?
Back to the original subject of this tread...BDU's. The Delaware Wing just received 250 BDU sets from the USAF at Dover AFB and the Delaware Air National Guard is giving the Wing another 100 sets. This is a great plus for our cadets. :clap: :clap: :clap:
Quote from: Private Investigator on November 10, 2011, 11:38:29 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on November 09, 2011, 07:10:41 PM
(http://www.acmedepot.com/images/blue_front4.jpg)
Is this available on eBay?
But seriously would anybody beef me for wearing it?
Why do people want this? It looks like complete crap. I can understand the whole headset over the cover that lead to the original look, along with the "experience" of many missions, but ultimately? It looks like crap, and I wouldn't want you in a picture as a PAO or someone also in the shot looking like that in it.
Quote from: Private Investigator on November 10, 2011, 11:38:29 AM
But seriously would anybody beef me for wearing it?
Yes they would take issue with you wearing that.
Per CAPR 39-1 Table 2-1, Line 12. "Cap will not be crushed"
Quote from: CyBorg on November 09, 2011, 05:16:21 PM
Quote from: Thrashed on November 09, 2011, 12:04:03 PM
I vote "no hats" of any kind.
Why? Because hats suck, I don't like them. Yes, I am allowed my opinion. Sorry. I wear the stupid service cap at work everyday. I hate it.
Quote from: Thrashed on November 09, 2011, 12:04:03 PM
We also do not need new uniform choices or changes. Enough is enough!
Sooo...the many CAP members who loathe the current options and the way the CSU was pulled out from under us just have to "suck it up?" Yes, it's called following orders and regulations.
Quote from: arajca on November 08, 2011, 11:23:40 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on November 08, 2011, 09:34:21 PM
But somebody, please, Please, PLEASE get rid of the Realtor jacket (blazer)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, I KNOW it's cheap, especially if you get it at Salvation Army, Goodwill or St. Vince's...but it is very NON-AVIATION. When I see it, I think of Century 21, RE/MAX, etc (I used to work in the real estate industry).
I would be over the moon to be able to wear something like this:
(http://www.tallyhouniforms.com/images/pictures/pilotjackets/pjacket5545.jpg)
Airline aircrew uniform jacket, available from Tally-Ho uniforms...and it's available in charcoal grey, to keep the grey zealots appeased! We wouldn't have to use the sleeve striping, either...the current Realtor jacket nameplate with grade would suffice, but deep-six the pocket protector!!!
And this without the sleeve stripes is different from the current blazer how exactly? The pocket protector is a travesty. The proper way to wear a crest on the blazer is to either sew it on or use a pin on version.
Yea, the airline jacket without stripes is a suit coat. You can get them at JC Pennys. There is nothing military about it except the stripes and the company logo on the buttons.
Quote from: Buzz on November 09, 2011, 06:37:57 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on November 08, 2011, 07:40:32 PM
Please no... The aviator really doesn't need headgear.
You don't fly much, do you?
I'm my planes I wear an HGU-55.
In other people's planes, I either wear a ball cap or (as appropriate) a 50-mission crush.
CAP needs to put a 50-mission crush into 39-1. ;)
Civilian planes? I've made it 14,000+ hours without wearing anything on my head, period (other than a cheap headset). I don't see a need for any hat/headgear for pilots. Optional is fine, I'm not wearing it.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 10, 2011, 01:33:54 PMWhy do people want this? It looks like complete crap. I can understand the whole headset over the cover that lead to the original look, along with the "experience" of many missions, but ultimately? It looks like crap, and I wouldn't want you in a picture as a PAO or someone also in the shot looking like that in it.
I concur absolutely. I realize there is some heritage to it. But yuck. You want 'em to be squared away, except you're okay with something that looks even more dopey than a pilled up, cow muffin that looks like it's sliding off, and looks like it got shot through an engine?
No thanks.
Quote from: rjfoxx on November 10, 2011, 01:19:54 PM
Back to the original subject of this tread...BDU's. The Delaware Wing just received 250 BDU sets from the USAF at Dover AFB and the Delaware Air National Guard is giving the Wing another 100 sets. This is a great plus for our cadets. :clap: :clap: :clap:
Brand new BDU's? Or hand-me-downs with scars where the enlisted stripes use to be? 250 clean sets of BDU's would be sweet!
Major Lord
You know, even if we do finally get a decision that everybody agrees on, within a week or possibly as lomg as a month, you uniform gurus will be arguing about what looks right or wrong. Talk about beating a dead horse. ::)
My unit has received about 1,000 pairs of BDUs over the last year from the base. We put out an advert in the base newspaper asking for them as people switched over to ABUs. Ask and ye shall receive. Sure, most of them had patches, etc on them, but we ditched the faded and lousy ones and have a few hundred sets of good quality, 2nd hand BDUs.
We ran out of space in our supply room and sent a few hundred sets up to the wing to be distributed to other units who don't have our resource.
Despite having free BDUs, though, there are still cadets who wear their own that they purchased or acquired somewhere else.
Good Job DEWG.
Quote from: Grumpy on November 10, 2011, 04:12:15 PM
You know, even if we do finally get a decision that everybody agrees on, within a week or possibly as lomg as a month, you uniform gurus will be arguing about what looks right or wrong. Talk about beating a dead horse. ::)
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
CAP members are only happy when fighting about uniforms. ;D
Quote from: Thrashed on November 10, 2011, 04:48:57 PM
Quote from: Grumpy on November 10, 2011, 04:12:15 PM
You know, even if we do finally get a decision that everybody agrees on, within a week or possibly as lomg as a month, you uniform gurus will be arguing about what looks right or wrong. Talk about beating a dead horse. ::)
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
CAP members are only happy when fighting about uniforms. ;D
Maybe I'm just too new. I ran out and bought the aviator/grey slacks combo and polo shirt right when i signed up. As soon as i met req's I ran out and bought blues and BDU's. Aside from being a little astonished at what we have to PAY for our uniforms I haven't yet had much of an opinion on the subject. I guess maybe i'm just happy to be able to wear one right now. After a few years I can only hope i will be jaded like everyone else. :)
(just kidding of course. I don't hope... I rather expect it. :P)
Quote from: john_Bowers on November 10, 2011, 04:56:01 PM
Quote from: Thrashed on November 10, 2011, 04:48:57 PM
Quote from: Grumpy on November 10, 2011, 04:12:15 PM
You know, even if we do finally get a decision that everybody agrees on, within a week or possibly as lomg as a month, you uniform gurus will be arguing about what looks right or wrong. Talk about beating a dead horse. ::)
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
CAP members are only happy when fighting about uniforms. ;D
Maybe I'm just too new. I ran out and bought the aviator/grey slacks combo and polo shirt right when i signed up. As soon as i met req's I ran out and bought blues and BDU's. Aside from being a little astonished at what we have to PAY for our uniforms I haven't yet had much of an opinion on the subject. I guess maybe i'm just happy to be able to wear one right now. After a few years I can only hope i will be jaded like everyone else. :)
(just kidding of course. I don't hope... I rather expect it. :P)
Air Force officers pay for their uniforms as well, and they work for the AF full time. I don't really mind paying for my uniforms - it means I get the uniforms I need when I need them and don't have to deal with a drawn-out request process.
I lucked out and had 2 set of almost new BDUs, boots and a field jacket that I had from prior service. I still wear them as needed. I am looking into the white shirt/gray slacks or polo with logo.
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 10, 2011, 05:11:27 PM
I am looking into the white shirt/gray slacks...
You're an IG and do not have the mandated minimum uniform?
^^It may well be, and you can get them for a lot cheaper than JC Penney's at your local SVdP, etc.
But they are non-standard...as is the entire G/W uniform.
Thrashed, you are entitled to say that "hats suck." However, if you wear the AF blue uniform, you too have to "suck it up" and wear one. It's called "following orders and regulations." I think I read that recently on CT...and a new cap for the G/W would not necessarily have to be the kind of service cap you loathe.
I am equally entitled to say that I do not want to look like a negative of an old B/W photo or a Realtor in CAP.
I would agree with Major Lord on the condition of the BDU's...we get quite a few from the local ANG people, though that source is rapidly, rapidly drying up. Ours have to be "demilitarised" too...not an easy task if you've got SMSgt stripes, name and USAF tapes, qualification badges, Prime Beef badges, etc. The local Army/Navy still has a few, mostly castoffs from the local ARNG, which are in even worse shape. OK for the hunters and other outdoorsies who buy them, but not to look proper in CAP.
Private Investigator, yes, you can sometimes find hats like that on Evilbay, and for a lot more $$$ on "reproduction" websites. I have seen all kinds of lids being worn with the polos and G/W and people not being gigged for it (after all, other than the "CAP baseball cap," unless meaning the one sold by Vanguard, which 39-1 predates, there is no standard headgear for those orders of dress). I'd just as soon wear an old, long out of regulation AF flight cap with no insignia or even a foreign one with the insignia removed:
(http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/m/m5kMzaTrQ0zDtpwzFzv0N_w/140.jpg)
South African
(http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/m/m9zHASANaodztrgFk3d3QJw/140.jpg)
Royal New Zealand Air Force
(http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/m/mUyZKH1RfoUBMXiqLKs7ZrA/140.jpg)
Portuguese AF
(http://thumbs4.ebaystatic.com/m/mdi9o5D4LLTl8HIXwYo30nA/140.jpg)
Russian
...as long as it wasn't something clearly ostentatious:
(http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/pict/1206718493814040_1.jpg)
;D
Grumpy, the BMW'ing about uniforms has been going on since at least the berry boards era...and the CSU episode kind of tore the scab off a semi-healing wound.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on November 10, 2011, 05:07:11 PM
Quote from: john_Bowers on November 10, 2011, 04:56:01 PM
Quote from: Thrashed on November 10, 2011, 04:48:57 PM
Quote from: Grumpy on November 10, 2011, 04:12:15 PM
You know, even if we do finally get a decision that everybody agrees on, within a week or possibly as lomg as a month, you uniform gurus will be arguing about what looks right or wrong. Talk about beating a dead horse. ::)
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
CAP members are only happy when fighting about uniforms. ;D
Maybe I'm just too new. I ran out and bought the aviator/grey slacks combo and polo shirt right when i signed up. As soon as i met req's I ran out and bought blues and BDU's. Aside from being a little astonished at what we have to PAY for our uniforms I haven't yet had much of an opinion on the subject. I guess maybe i'm just happy to be able to wear one right now. After a few years I can only hope i will be jaded like everyone else. :)
(just kidding of course. I don't hope... I rather expect it. :P)
Air Force officers pay for their uniforms as well, and they work for the AF full time. I don't really mind paying for my uniforms - it means I get the uniforms I need when I need them and don't have to deal with a drawn-out request process.
Agreed. I'd rather get them when I need them than have to wait on a process. I was just surprised at the price in general no matter who's paying. You could just call it sticker shock for a newb. :)
Quote from: Private Investigator on November 10, 2011, 11:38:29 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on November 09, 2011, 07:10:41 PM
(http://www.acmedepot.com/images/blue_front4.jpg)
Is this available on eBay?
But seriously would anybody beef me for wearing it?
Yes. It is specifically prohibited in 39-1.
Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Fig 2-26NOTES:
1. Service Cap: Optional for senior members. May be authorized by wing commander for cadet
officers. Normally worn with service dress uniform. Cadet NCOs and airmen will not wear the
service cap (Exception see Chapter 3). Cap will not be crushed. Large senior member or cadet
officer satin finish cap device (with post and screw back) is worn center front. General officers
wear a cap with three sets of clouds and lightning on cap bill. Senior member Major through
Colonel wear caps with two sets of clouds and lightning on the cap bill. All others wear caps with a
plain bill.
Dave and all.
I am doing my pushups!
Nice Swiss-German gray jacket on eBay. :)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Swiss-German-Jacket-Tunic-Uniform-Hat-Cap-L-XL-/00/s/MTAyNFgxMDI0/$(KGrHqN,!hEE6bJImBRMBOne9wbs3g~~60_3.JPG)
Quote from: BradM on November 11, 2011, 12:25:41 AM
Nice Swiss-German gray jacket on eBay. :)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Swiss-German-Jacket-Tunic-Uniform-Hat-Cap-L-XL-/00/s/MTAyNFgxMDI0/$(KGrHqN,!hEE6bJImBRMBOne9wbs3g~~60_3.JPG)
Look at how that's cut. There's no way it will fit heavier members well.
Quote from: davidsinn on November 10, 2011, 05:32:56 PM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 10, 2011, 05:11:27 PM
I am looking into the white shirt/gray slacks...
You're an IG and do not have the mandated minimum uniform?
That issue has been gone over quite enough.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on November 11, 2011, 12:41:58 AM
Quote from: BradM on November 11, 2011, 12:25:41 AM
Nice Swiss-German gray jacket on eBay. :)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Swiss-German-Jacket-Tunic-Uniform-Hat-Cap-L-XL-/00/s/MTAyNFgxMDI0/$(KGrHqN,!hEE6bJImBRMBOne9wbs3g~~60_3.JPG)
Look at how that's cut. There's no way it will fit heavier members well.
True, for the bearded guys (nicely trimmed) that are in weight and have short hair that will work. They could have another pattern for large waisted members as well if it was adopted and made in the USA.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on November 11, 2011, 12:41:58 AM
Look at how that's cut. There's no way it will fit heavier members well.
I don't mean to be crass, but is there anything that
will satisfy our heavier members other than the status quo?
Plus...that Swiss tunic would be "too military" to qualify as a "corporate" uniform. That's why I've been leaning toward airline-type options.
A place like Sporty's Pilot Shop is well-known to many GA pilots, it would be easy to obtain stuff from them and none of it is military-issue.
http://www.sportys.com/PilotShop/category/935 (http://www.sportys.com/PilotShop/category/935)
Quote from: CyBorg on November 11, 2011, 01:36:25 AM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on November 11, 2011, 12:41:58 AM
Look at how that's cut. There's no way it will fit heavier members well.
I don't mean to be crass, but is there anything that will satisfy our heavier members other than the status quo?
Is there anything jacket/hat-related that will increase our mission effectiveness?
The answer to your question is that I don't know because I can't speak for everyone.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on November 11, 2011, 01:45:04 AM
Is there anything jacket/hat-related that will increase our mission effectiveness?
The answer to your question is that I don't know because I can't speak for everyone.
Absolutely, especially on the cadet side of the house, which tends towards more formality and more
situations which call for dress uniforms.
But in general a more formal appearance and attitude by commanders and other leaders would serve CAP well
and increase attention to detail and knock down some of the club mentality.
This isn't M*A*S*H and (we) ain't Hawkeye.
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 11, 2011, 12:50:44 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on November 10, 2011, 05:32:56 PM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 10, 2011, 05:11:27 PM
I am looking into the white shirt/gray slacks...
You're an IG and do not have the mandated minimum uniform?
That issue has been gone over quite enough.
No, I don't think it has. You as an "IG" (im yet to make up my mind if you're just blowing smoke but anyway) should be setting the example. Put on a uniform and get over yourself.
Quote from: NCRblues on November 11, 2011, 02:01:58 AM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 11, 2011, 12:50:44 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on November 10, 2011, 05:32:56 PM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 10, 2011, 05:11:27 PM
I am looking into the white shirt/gray slacks...
You're an IG and do not have the mandated minimum uniform?
That issue has been gone over quite enough.
No, I don't think it has. You as an "IG" (im yet to make up my mind if you're just blowing smoke but anyway) should be setting the example. Put on a uniform and get over yourself.
That, and the issue that was gone over was his not wearing ANY uniform while performing official duties. CAPM39-1 clearly states members will equip themselves with the minimum basic uniform. That you are an IG and charged with overseeing program compliance and yet are not in compliance yourself is an issue.
Quote from: john_Bowers on November 10, 2011, 04:56:01 PM
Quote from: Thrashed on November 10, 2011, 04:48:57 PM
Quote from: Grumpy on November 10, 2011, 04:12:15 PM
You know, even if we do finally get a decision that everybody agrees on, within a week or possibly as lomg as a month, you uniform gurus will be arguing about what looks right or wrong. Talk about beating a dead horse. ::)
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
CAP members are only happy when fighting about uniforms. ;D
Maybe I'm just too new. I ran out and bought the aviator/grey slacks combo and polo shirt right when i signed up. As soon as i met req's I ran out and bought blues and BDU's. Aside from being a little astonished at what we have to PAY for our uniforms I haven't yet had much of an opinion on the subject. I guess maybe i'm just happy to be able to wear one right now. After a few years I can only hope i will be jaded like everyone else. :)
(just kidding of course. I don't hope... I rather expect it. :P)
You think our uniforms are expensive? Ask any cop how much their uniforms cost.
Quote from: PHall on November 11, 2011, 03:32:40 AM
You think our uniforms are expensive? Ask any cop how much their uniforms cost.
How is that relevant?
Comparing a paid employee's uniform situation to a volunteer's serves no purpose, especially when you consider
that most departments, and yes, even the military (officers too), get at least an initial clothing allowance.
We get a tax deduction (assuming you itemize).
Quote from: NCRblues on November 11, 2011, 02:01:58 AM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 11, 2011, 12:50:44 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on November 10, 2011, 05:32:56 PM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 10, 2011, 05:11:27 PM
I am looking into the white shirt/gray slacks...
You're an IG and do not have the mandated minimum uniform?
That issue has been gone over quite enough.
No, I don't think it has. You as an "IG" (im yet to make up my mind if you're just blowing smoke but anyway) should be setting the example. Put on a uniform and get over yourself.
Yes, its over with you.
Quote from: davidsinn on November 11, 2011, 03:09:34 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on November 11, 2011, 02:01:58 AM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 11, 2011, 12:50:44 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on November 10, 2011, 05:32:56 PM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 10, 2011, 05:11:27 PM
I am looking into the white shirt/gray slacks...
You're an IG and do not have the mandated minimum uniform?
That issue has been gone over quite enough.
No, I don't think it has. You as an "IG" (im yet to make up my mind if you're just blowing smoke but anyway) should be setting the example. Put on a uniform and get over yourself.
That, and the issue that was gone over was his not wearing ANY uniform while performing official duties. CAPM39-1 clearly states members will equip themselves with the minimum basic uniform. That you are an IG and charged with overseeing program compliance and yet are not in compliance yourself is an issue.
What is the minimun basic uniform if someone wants a beard, is over the allowed weight, etc.?
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 11, 2011, 03:49:23 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on November 11, 2011, 03:09:34 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on November 11, 2011, 02:01:58 AM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 11, 2011, 12:50:44 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on November 10, 2011, 05:32:56 PM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 10, 2011, 05:11:27 PM
I am looking into the white shirt/gray slacks...
You're an IG and do not have the mandated minimum uniform?
That issue has been gone over quite enough.
No, I don't think it has. You as an "IG" (im yet to make up my mind if you're just blowing smoke but anyway) should be setting the example. Put on a uniform and get over yourself.
That, and the issue that was gone over was his not wearing ANY uniform while performing official duties. CAPM39-1 clearly states members will equip themselves with the minimum basic uniform. That you are an IG and charged with overseeing program compliance and yet are not in compliance yourself is an issue.
What is the minimun basic uniform if someone wants a beard, is over the allowed weight, etc.?
You are an IG. You tell me.
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 11, 2011, 03:46:54 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on November 11, 2011, 02:01:58 AM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 11, 2011, 12:50:44 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on November 10, 2011, 05:32:56 PM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 10, 2011, 05:11:27 PM
I am looking into the white shirt/gray slacks...
You're an IG and do not have the mandated minimum uniform?
That issue has been gone over quite enough.
No, I don't think it has. You as an "IG" (im yet to make up my mind if you're just blowing smoke but anyway) should be setting the example. Put on a uniform and get over yourself.
Yes, its over with you.
Oh its over with me?
Is that because I asked you questions about your claimed past that you never answered?
Is it because I called you on a regulation violation, after you claim YEARS of experience in enforcing rules and regulations and law?
So, how about those answers from the other thread now?
Quote from: davidsinn on November 11, 2011, 03:52:26 AM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 11, 2011, 03:49:23 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on November 11, 2011, 03:09:34 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on November 11, 2011, 02:01:58 AM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 11, 2011, 12:50:44 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on November 10, 2011, 05:32:56 PM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 10, 2011, 05:11:27 PM
I am looking into the white shirt/gray slacks...
You're an IG and do not have the mandated minimum uniform?
That issue has been gone over quite enough.
No, I don't think it has. You as an "IG" (im yet to make up my mind if you're just blowing smoke but anyway) should be setting the example. Put on a uniform and get over yourself.
That, and the issue that was gone over was his not wearing ANY uniform while performing official duties. CAPM39-1 clearly states members will equip themselves with the minimum basic uniform. That you are an IG and charged with overseeing program compliance and yet are not in compliance yourself is an issue.
What is the minimun basic uniform if someone wants a beard, is over the allowed weight, etc.?
You are an IG. You tell me.
You stated I was not in compliance and should be, so my question is a legitimate one.
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 11, 2011, 03:59:51 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on November 11, 2011, 03:52:26 AM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 11, 2011, 03:49:23 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on November 11, 2011, 03:09:34 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on November 11, 2011, 02:01:58 AM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 11, 2011, 12:50:44 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on November 10, 2011, 05:32:56 PM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 10, 2011, 05:11:27 PM
I am looking into the white shirt/gray slacks...
You're an IG and do not have the mandated minimum uniform?
That issue has been gone over quite enough.
No, I don't think it has. You as an "IG" (im yet to make up my mind if you're just blowing smoke but anyway) should be setting the example. Put on a uniform and get over yourself.
That, and the issue that was gone over was his not wearing ANY uniform while performing official duties. CAPM39-1 clearly states members will equip themselves with the minimum basic uniform. That you are an IG and charged with overseeing program compliance and yet are not in compliance yourself is an issue.
What is the minimun basic uniform if someone wants a beard, is over the allowed weight, etc.?
You are an IG. You tell me.
You stated I was not in compliance and should be, so my question is a legitimate one.
As an IG, finding a regulatory answer should be a piece of cake with all the tools at our disposal. Since I already stated what manual it's in I did most of the work for you.
I do not believe you are an IG at all.
Quote from: davidsinn on November 11, 2011, 04:04:39 AM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 11, 2011, 03:59:51 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on November 11, 2011, 03:52:26 AM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 11, 2011, 03:49:23 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on November 11, 2011, 03:09:34 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on November 11, 2011, 02:01:58 AM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 11, 2011, 12:50:44 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on November 10, 2011, 05:32:56 PM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 10, 2011, 05:11:27 PM
I am looking into the white shirt/gray slacks...
You're an IG and do not have the mandated minimum uniform?
That issue has been gone over quite enough.
No, I don't think it has. You as an "IG" (im yet to make up my mind if you're just blowing smoke but anyway) should be setting the example. Put on a uniform and get over yourself.
That, and the issue that was gone over was his not wearing ANY uniform while performing official duties. CAPM39-1 clearly states members will equip themselves with the minimum basic uniform. That you are an IG and charged with overseeing program compliance and yet are not in compliance yourself is an issue.
What is the minimun basic uniform if someone wants a beard, is over the allowed weight, etc.?
You are an IG. You tell me.
You stated I was not in compliance and should be, so my question is a legitimate one.
As an IG, finding a regulatory answer should be a piece of cake with all the tools at our disposal. Since I already stated what manual it's in I did most of the work for you.
I do not believe you are an IG at all.
All the tools? What, some sort of super IG master uplink to IG Central? The only tools I have is one computer at the wing IG office and the rest of the tools are my own laptop, cell phone and a pen/notebook. I have a copy of some of the regs and other IG book at my home and links to online regs.
I don't recall that we have ever been involved in a "wearing a wrong uniform" investigation and it is not covered that I recall in the training program.
And as to you not beliving I an IG staff member at all, that I can't control.
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 11, 2011, 04:14:55 AM
All the tools? What, some sort of super IG master uplink to IG Central? The only tools I have is one computer at the wing IG office and the rest of the tools are my own laptop, cell phone and a pen/notebook. I have a copy of some of the regs and other IG book at my home and links to online regs.
I don't recall that we have ever been involved in a "wearing a wrong uniform" investigation and it is not covered that I recall in the training program.
And as to you not beliving I an IG staff member at all, that I can't control.
Tools; as in the knowledgebase, the Forms and Pubs page on the website, and this message board itself. The answers are there and easy to find if you try. I already told you what manual it's in. You should have found it by now. I'm just a lowly captain with no investigative skills at all and have served no higher than group AE and I'm pretty sure I have a better grasp of the program than you do.
Quote from: davidsinn on November 11, 2011, 04:22:27 AM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 11, 2011, 04:14:55 AM
All the tools? What, some sort of super IG master uplink to IG Central? The only tools I have is one computer at the wing IG office and the rest of the tools are my own laptop, cell phone and a pen/notebook. I have a copy of some of the regs and other IG book at my home and links to online regs.
I don't recall that we have ever been involved in a "wearing a wrong uniform" investigation and it is not covered that I recall in the training program.
And as to you not beliving I an IG staff member at all, that I can't control.
Tools; as in the knowledgebase, the Forms and Pubs page on the website, and this message board itself. The answers are there and easy to find if you try. I already told you what manual it's in. You should have found it by now. I'm just a lowly captain with no investigative skills at all and have served no higher than group AE and I'm pretty sure I have a better grasp of the program than you do.
you also have 2.5k posts... :clap:
Hanging out on CT will teach you many things, including how fast a thread turns into a uniform war. >:D
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on November 11, 2011, 04:28:27 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on November 11, 2011, 04:22:27 AM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 11, 2011, 04:14:55 AM
All the tools? What, some sort of super IG master uplink to IG Central? The only tools I have is one computer at the wing IG office and the rest of the tools are my own laptop, cell phone and a pen/notebook. I have a copy of some of the regs and other IG book at my home and links to online regs.
I don't recall that we have ever been involved in a "wearing a wrong uniform" investigation and it is not covered that I recall in the training program.
And as to you not beliving I an IG staff member at all, that I can't control.
Tools; as in the knowledgebase, the Forms and Pubs page on the website, and this message board itself. The answers are there and easy to find if you try. I already told you what manual it's in. You should have found it by now. I'm just a lowly captain with no investigative skills at all and have served no higher than group AE and I'm pretty sure I have a better grasp of the program than you do.
you also have 2.5k posts... :clap:
That only shows that I have way too much time on my hands ;D I have a good grasp on things because I study things, pay attention and have achieved level three.
And I have learned that the only way to "win" is not to play.
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 11, 2011, 04:55:19 AM
And I have learned that the only way to "win" is not to play.
Ok, here is a simple question, what wing are you an IG for?
Quote from: Eclipse on November 11, 2011, 03:37:32 AM
Quote from: PHall on November 11, 2011, 03:32:40 AM
You think our uniforms are expensive? Ask any cop how much their uniforms cost.
How is that relevant?
Comparing a paid employee's uniform situation to a volunteer's serves no purpose, especially when you consider
that most departments, and yes, even the military (officers too), get at least an initial clothing allowance.
We get a tax deduction (assuming you itemize).
Most police officers get a set amount per year for uniforms. Which usually doesn't come anywhere near what their uniform costs are.
Going through a half dozen pairs of trousers a year is not unheard of. Usually at about $60 a pop.
That and the cost of taking them to the cleaners...
Quote from: NCRblues on November 11, 2011, 05:10:33 AM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 11, 2011, 04:55:19 AM
And I have learned that the only way to "win" is not to play.
Ok, here is a simple question, what wing are you an IG for?
He can't tell you. That's [classified]. :-X
Quote from: PHall on November 11, 2011, 03:32:40 AM
Quote from: john_Bowers on November 10, 2011, 04:56:01 PM
Quote from: Thrashed on November 10, 2011, 04:48:57 PM
Quote from: Grumpy on November 10, 2011, 04:12:15 PM
You know, even if we do finally get a decision that everybody agrees on, within a week or possibly as lomg as a month, you uniform gurus will be arguing about what looks right or wrong. Talk about beating a dead horse. ::)
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
CAP members are only happy when fighting about uniforms. ;D
Maybe I'm just too new. I ran out and bought the aviator/grey slacks combo and polo shirt right when i signed up. As soon as i met req's I ran out and bought blues and BDU's. Aside from being a little astonished at what we have to PAY for our uniforms I haven't yet had much of an opinion on the subject. I guess maybe i'm just happy to be able to wear one right now. After a few years I can only hope i will be jaded like everyone else. :)
(just kidding of course. I don't hope... I rather expect it. :P)
You think our uniforms are expensive? Ask any cop how much their uniforms cost.
For the record I wasn't really complaining.
I do find it interesting that every new cadet receives a full set of Aerospace and Leadership modules with their packet as well as a complete uniform (minus gadgets and shoes) with their membership dues.
Senior members pay more annually and receive no uniform and a Binder with a copy of "Great Start" and "Respect on Display".
Now I would rather it not change at ALL if the change would be to make cadets start paying for thier first blues uniform. But it would have been "nice" if my packet had come with a polo shirt and a couple of books to get started with.
Quote from: john_Bowers on November 11, 2011, 04:21:38 PMNow I would rather it not change at ALL if the change would be to make cadets start paying for thier first blues uniform. But it would have been "nice" if my packet had come with a polo shirt and a couple of books to get started with.
That would imply that the golf shirt is the minimum or "base uniform, which it isn't - that's the MBU, depending on your flavor.
It would be interesting to know what the evolution of the FCU was. The claim by many would be that without the FCU, we'd have a lot less cadets,
but I don't buy that. Yes, we've got cadets with financial issues, but lack of free uniforms doesn't stop the BSA, local sports, and other similar
activities from being successful.
I thought appropriated funding paid for the FCU, not cadet dues.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 11, 2011, 04:27:12 PM
Quote from: john_Bowers on November 11, 2011, 04:21:38 PMNow I would rather it not change at ALL if the change would be to make cadets start paying for thier first blues uniform. But it would have been "nice" if my packet had come with a polo shirt and a couple of books to get started with.
That would imply that the golf shirt is the minimum or "base uniform, which it isn't - that's the MBU, depending on your flavor.
It would be interesting to know what the evolution of the FCU was. The claim by many would be that without the FCU, we'd have a lot less cadets,
but I don't buy that. Yes, we've got cadets with financial issues, but lack of free uniforms doesn't stop the BSA, local sports, and other similar
activities from being successful.
I think requiring a new senior member to equip themselves with the MBU is fine. Giving them a golf shirt on the way in the door just says, "Here... wear this while you get you're waiting on your Vanguard order and then after that whenver your commander says OK."
I'm kind of a nerd so i found everything online that I could and read it in the first few days after joining. I ordered my aviator with all the trimmings and wore that as soon as it arrived. That still took a couple of weeks to assemble with backorders, etc.
FWIW my son is a cub scout. his shirt and all of the required items for it was about $45. A blues uniform is a bit more expensive. I can't wait to see what we have to buy when he crosses over. That should be fun. :)
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on November 11, 2011, 04:44:57 PM
I thought appropriated funding paid for the FCU, not cadet dues.
Correct. But it's our choice how much of the appropriated funds we put towards the FCUP. FCUP is an authorized use of appropriated funds.
The Cadet Books are paid for with appropriated funds.
So, the $30 pays for a membership card, shipping, and manpower to process the paperwork, etc., apparently.
Quote from: john_Bowers on November 11, 2011, 04:21:38 PM
But it would have been "nice" if my packet had come with a polo shirt and a couple of books to get started with.
The new member packet
used to come with CAPP 50-5,
Introduction to the Civil Air Patrol. I still have mine, but it's woefully out-of-date (1990). The latest one is dated 1 August 2002.
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/u_082503081737.pdf (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/u_082503081737.pdf)
It seems that it, like many other CAP publications, is now only available online (shell out for printer ink >:().
It's fun to read through my ancient one and reminisce about the good ol' days when we were the Auxiliary of the USAF all the time... :(
No uniforms of any kind came with my new member packet. Once my fingerprints were sent off to National, my squadron set out a list of the basic uniform I would need to get from the CAP Bookstore:
S/S light blue shirt
Trousers
Belt
BLUE three-line nameplate
CAP cutouts
AIRMAN flight cap; squadron CC didn't authorise the officer's cap until you actually got your 2nd looie.
I got shoes locally and a Tony Nelson service dress blouse at an Army/Navy for $20 in like-new condition.
"Alternative" uniforms, for whatever reason, were much less prevalent then, except for the old Smurf suit, which was either allowed to be worn with a flight cap or people did it anyway. I never saw grey/white (the old style, no ribbons) or polo shirts until I went to my first wing activity.
Quote from: CyBorg on November 11, 2011, 07:59:37 PMIt seems that it, like many other CAP publications, is now only available online (shell out for printer ink >:().
Who prints pubs anymore?
I'm seeing half blues and [half white shirt/gray slacks and golf shirt/gray slacks].
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on November 09, 2011, 08:45:05 PM
Here's an idea... Let's keep on doing our jobs without doing silly thing to our hats.
Actually, the crush happened because aviators were required to wear headgear, but would remove the stiffeners so that the hat would cushion the headset -- eventually the hat would take the crush shape.
This was officially approved in the late 1930s, and only ended when the USAAF mandated the wear of flying helmets by aircrews. Following Unification, the USAF never approved the service hat for aircrew wear while flying, but blue crush caps were still seen now and then, especially among FACs, until the ballcap became popular.
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSu344oGUC4yKdKkjZ8i4xS9rgcsFdB_vlfI9jUI4h-US9jn-nY8jaIe6N2)
Quote from: Eclipse on November 11, 2011, 04:27:12 PM
Quote from: john_Bowers on November 11, 2011, 04:21:38 PMNow I would rather it not change at ALL if the change would be to make cadets start paying for thier first blues uniform. But it would have been "nice" if my packet had come with a polo shirt and a couple of books to get started with.
That would imply that the golf shirt is the minimum or "base uniform, which it isn't - that's the MBU, depending on your flavor.
It would be interesting to know what the evolution of the FCU was. The claim by many would be that without the FCU, we'd have a lot less cadets,
but I don't buy that. Yes, we've got cadets with financial issues, but lack of free uniforms doesn't stop the BSA, local sports, and other similar
activities from being successful.
Just as an aside, the BSA never REQUIRED a uniform to be worn by either scouts or scoutmasters. There were kids and adults that put 10+ years in and never wore a uniform once ( and yet managed to participate in all activities ) And, at least in my council, there were some wealthy donors who would cover the cost of any and all kids who couldn't make the $ 10 annual dues... You don't see that in CAP. With us, if you don't have a uniform many folks (Cadet or Senior ) are unable to partake.
Quote from: PHall on November 11, 2011, 05:24:37 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on November 11, 2011, 05:10:33 AM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 11, 2011, 04:55:19 AM
And I have learned that the only way to "win" is not to play.
Ok, here is a simple question, what wing are you an IG for?
He can't tell you. That's [classified]. :-X
Not, not classified, its just that NCRblues is just not worth responding to. When he became rude and name calling, etc (sort of like a school yard bully) I just decided that I was done with him.
The "Internet is filled with so much bad behavior. We see it on blogs, where vicious comments are posted by cowards who hide behind the cloak of anonymity and/or the security that being miles away from other posters that the internet provides... We see it, particularly among young people, in social media like Facebook and MySpace, where cyberbullying has had tragic consequences. And we see it in casual e-mails.
There are other reasons for bad behavior online. It's a convenient outlet. We get frustrated easily these days, and if an e-mail with the slightest provocation shows up at the wrong time, we unleash that frustration."
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 13, 2011, 06:26:32 PM
Quote from: PHall on November 11, 2011, 05:24:37 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on November 11, 2011, 05:10:33 AM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 11, 2011, 04:55:19 AM
And I have learned that the only way to "win" is not to play.
Ok, here is a simple question, what wing are you an IG for?
He can't tell you. That's [classified]. :-X
Not, not classified, its just that NCRblues is just not worth responding to. When he became rude and name calling, etc (sort of like a school yard bully) I just decided that I was done with him.
The "Internet is filled with so much bad behavior. We see it on blogs, where vicious comments are posted by cowards who hide behind the cloak of anonymity and/or the security that being miles away from other posters that the internet provides... We see it, particularly among young people, in social media like Facebook and MySpace, where cyberbullying has had tragic consequences. And we see it in casual e-mails.
There are other reasons for bad behavior online. It's a convenient outlet. We get frustrated easily these days, and if an e-mail with the slightest provocation shows up at the wrong time, we unleash that frustration."
I called you a troll, and its not making fun of you. Its the truth. You have still not answered ANYONES questions on here, let alone mine.
Lets start with something simple.
So, simple question...what wing are you on IG staff for?
Quote from: NCRblues on November 13, 2011, 07:04:58 PM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 13, 2011, 06:26:32 PM
Quote from: PHall on November 11, 2011, 05:24:37 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on November 11, 2011, 05:10:33 AM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 11, 2011, 04:55:19 AM
And I have learned that the only way to "win" is not to play.
Ok, here is a simple question, what wing are you an IG for?
He can't tell you. That's [classified]. :-X
Not, not classified, its just that NCRblues is just not worth responding to. When he became rude and name calling, etc (sort of like a school yard bully) I just decided that I was done with him.
The "Internet is filled with so much bad behavior. We see it on blogs, where vicious comments are posted by cowards who hide behind the cloak of anonymity and/or the security that being miles away from other posters that the internet provides... We see it, particularly among young people, in social media like Facebook and MySpace, where cyberbullying has had tragic consequences. And we see it in casual e-mails.
There are other reasons for bad behavior online. It's a convenient outlet. We get frustrated easily these days, and if an e-mail with the slightest provocation shows up at the wrong time, we unleash that frustration."
I called you a troll, and its not making fun of you. Its the truth. You have still not answered ANYONES questions on here, let alone mine.
Lets start with something simple.
So, simple question...what wing are you on IG staff for?
Actually Sir, you called me a "troll and a fraud". Name calling aside, I don't believe I fit the accepted definition of a "troll", as commonly defined. As to being a fraud, you do not even have a preponderance of any evidence to support that claim.
No, what you appear to have is a temper and maturity issues and under the anonymity of the Internet, choose to act rudely.
As to anonymity, I choose not to disclose much in the way of information for my privacy on a very public forum.
G'day to you.
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 13, 2011, 07:41:09 PM
Actually Sir, you called me a "troll and a fraud". Name calling aside, I don't believe I fit the commonly accepted definition of a "troll", as commonly defined. As to being a fraud, you do not even have a preponderance of any evidence to support that claim.
No, what you appear to have is a temper and maturity issues and under the anonymity of the Internet, choose to act rudely.
As to anonymity, I choose not to disclose much in the way of information for my privacy on a very public forum.
G'day to you.
You are a troll and more than likely a fraud. You have made lots of WILD claims, and have backed none of them up.
Your "almost 60" and a "lawyer, retired federal agent, former local cop, former NCO, Former WO, Former state cop, current state cop, wing IG, coast guard Aux." so forth and so on
Answer my questions, what wing are you an IG for?
What year did you enter the army and get your GED?
What year (and from what school) did you get your law degree to be admitted to the BAR?
When did you graduate FLETC?
What agency did you work for when you were a "fed"?
What state did you police for?
What local jurisdiction did you police for?
How many enlistments did you do to get NCO grade?
What was your NCO grade?
What did you do as a WO?
Any answers would be great....
Okay, am I worth responding to? So what wing are you in?
Gentlemen, can we please get back on topic ?
Quote from: PHall on November 13, 2011, 08:01:22 PM
Okay, am I worth responding to? So what wing are you in?
You are sir, but again there is the anonymity thing as the IG staff is limited and names are posted on wing sites.
NCRBlues: And yould you like my SSAN as well? Do you understand the whole anonymity thing?
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on November 13, 2011, 08:10:19 PM
Gentlemen, can we please get back on topic ?
Agreed, and I will stand by my statement of not responding to NCRBlues anymore as what he wants is a protracted internet argument and a need to be "right".