Effective Immediatly....New Ground Team Uniform for California................
CAWG Ground Team Uniform.
Background
Cal EMA has suggested that in the interest of increased safety CAP members participating in
ground search activity wear the commonly adopted SAR uniform recognized by law enforcement
nationwide. In March 2008, the CAP National Board approved a conditional exception allowing
for alternate uniforms to those defined in CAPM 39-1. In February 2009, PCR/CC and
CAWG/CC made the determination that the suggestion made by Cal EMA meets the criteria of
the exception.
This section defines the CAWG Ground Team uniform and the conditions under which it may be
worn. It is referred to below as the CAWG GT uniform. This section also defines authorized
uniforms for UDF team members.
Policy
It is the policy of CAWG that the CAWG GT uniform is authorized for wear by members
actively participating (as defined below) as a member of a Ground Team or UDF team on a
ground search sortie (training or actual). At all other times members must wear other uniforms
in accordance with CAPM 39-1. When appropriate, it is recommended the member convert the
CAWG GT uniform to the CAP Blue Field Uniform by wearing the Blue BDU Blouse with
appropriate patches.
It is the policy of CAWG that the CAWG GT Uniform shall be worn by all members actively
participating as a member of a Ground Team (training or actual).
It is the policy of CAWG that members participating in UDF team operations shall wear one of the
following uniform combinations.
(1) CAWG Ground Team Uniform
(2) CAP polo shirt/grey pants corporate uniform
(3) CAP Blue Field uniform
(4) Cadets may wear BDU Uniform.
Note: If CAP Blue Field Uniform or BDU Uniform is worn, wear of an orange safety vest is
MANDATORY and must be worn at all times while in the field.
CAWG SUPPLEMENT 1 CAPM 39-1 11 APRIL 2010 2
Actively participating is defined as the mobilizing, on sortie and demobilizing portions of the
ground sortie.
The CAWG GT uniform is not authorized for:
· Base Staff or Aircrew functions at any time.
· Ground Team or UDF Team members while transporting to or from a search base, or at a
search base in a out of service status
Implementation
Authorization for wear of the CAWG GT uniform is effective as of the date of this supplement.
Compliance with the provision requiring wear of the CAWG GT uniform by Ground Team
members is effective 120 days after the effective date of this supplement.
CAWG Ground Team Uniform Definition
(1) Description:
(a) Long or short sleeve orange (not fluorescent), two or four pocket shirt without epaulets.
(b) CAP Blue Field Uniform trousers.
(c) Boots appropriate for mission objectives, conditions, and terrain. The Ground Team Leader
will be the final authority on the suitability of boots.
(d) Additional outer garments (jackets, packs, outerwear layers, hats, gloves, gaiters, PPE etc.)
appropriate for mission objectives, weather conditions and safety considerations.
(2) Insignia and Patches
(Placement of insignia is identical to that shown in CAPM 39-1 Figure 2-17 for BDUs.)
The following insignia and patches must be worn.
(a) Blue Civil Air Patrol tape – cloth: is worn centered immediately above the left shirt pocket.
(b) Blue Name Tag – cloth: is worn centered immediately above the right shirt pocket (only the
last name is used).
(c) California Wing patch – cloth: is worn placed 3/4 inch below the shoulder seam on the left
sleeve.
The following insignia and patches may optionally be worn.
(d) CAP Aviation Badge and Ground Team Badge – Blue Cloth: if worn, are placed 1/2 inch
above the "Civil Air Patrol" tape. If both devices are worn, the aviation badge is placed 1/2 inch
above the Ground Team Badge.
(e) Cloth Specialty Badge (Communications, EMT, CPR, etc): if worn place centered on the left
shirt pocket.
(f) Unit patch or the National Search & Rescue School patch: if worn place centered on the right
shirt pocket.
(g) NASAR SARTECH Patch (with or without 1 rocker) or OES/Cal EMA Search and Rescue
patch: if worn place 3/4 inch below the shoulder seam on the right sleeve.
(3) Insignia NOT authorized on the CAWG Ground Team Uniform combination:
(a) Grade insignia (not even on the hat)
(b) CAP Lapel/Collar insignia
(c) Military Aviation Badges
(d) Metal insignia, badges, or awards
(e) Cords or other decorations
Are Wings allowed to mandate their own uniforms?
Quote from: Rotorhead on April 16, 2010, 06:18:47 PM
Are Wings allowed to mandate their own uniforms?
QuoteIn March 2008, the CAP National Board approved a conditional exception allowing
for alternate uniforms to those defined in CAPM 39-1.
Quote from: Rotorhead on April 16, 2010, 06:18:47 PM
Are Wings allowed to mandate their own uniforms?
The basis for this falls into two broad categories:
Customer request - in this case CA EMA
Environmental - i.e. snowmobile suits in AK
There are caveats. If the AF has said no (boonies with bdus) they cannot be allowed under this. CA makes a good call on basing it off the bbdu.
A question I have is....A flightcrew in flightsuits tracks and ELT to an airport. Do they have to call in a separate properly uniformed UDF team to search the airport for the beacon?? Since they are in flightsuits, once they land they would be a UDF team searching for the beacon, but would not be wearing the mandated UDF uniform.
Quote from: Smokey on April 16, 2010, 06:41:12 PM
A question I have is....A flightcrew in flightsuits tracks and ELT to an airport. Do they have to call in a separate properly uniformed UDF team to search the airport for the beacon?? Since they are in flightsuits, once they land they would be a UDF team searching for the beacon, but would not be wearing the mandated UDF uniform.
Moving to the nearest telephone booth ...
I am sure there will be a CAP hubalooooo over this
There may be a good reason for this as determined by CAL EMA and that is there perogative. Maybe CAl EMA wants a DISTINCTION of Senior Member in the field with all the LE and military types in BDU's (spell SWAT, FBI, Sheriff) that that MAY want to preclude volunteers getting all mixed up with law enforcement activities and may also want to soften the appearance of folks during real disasters. There may GOOD reasoning CAl EMA has done this and if it has been approved by CAWG.......well live with it
Now its is up to CAP to start fielding a uniform that is completely different than the BDU's. But CAP's common sense for a field uniform that can be seen such as orange or similar has been pretty well twarted by CAP's belief that there only identity remains with some sort of military uniform. Maybe the trend like this will possible see CAP out of BDU's in the future. CAP Senior Members might interpret the CAL EMA decision as some kind of BS and more "government interventions." I say tough....State decisions over ride CAP volunteer decisions and uniforms any day of the week. So CAPTalkers.....It approved by NHQ-CAP ....start questioning allllllllthat and flaming that decision, 'cuz nobody came to CAPTalk for their input!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
This COULD be and only MAY be a start to a "credentialing process." ONLY an opinion.
But CAP as a "premier SAR" organization sure could or should have a better uniform for being seen during search and locate missions, or other disaster relief missions.
Hmm, I notice that it says that CA only suggested that the orange shirt be worn and that it is not a requirement.
Right - and when the General suggested I do something, I pondered long and hard as to if I wanted to do it since it was only a suggestion...
I can already hear it now... What shade of (not flourescent) orange?!
Orange vests are sufficient, there's no reason to try and make us look like local SAR units.
Quote from: RiverAux on April 16, 2010, 08:20:18 PM
Hmm, I notice that it says that CA only suggested that the orange shirt be worn and that it is not a requirement.
I disagree with your interpretation.
The only place in the supplement that it says "suggest" is where it describes the background of creation of the CAWG GT uniform. The
Policy section clearly states,
"CAWG GT uniform shall be worn by all GT members while actively participating as a member of a Ground Team." And under
Implementation section its states, "
effective 120 days after the effective date of this supplement."
To me that means that all CAWG GT members must wear this new uniform with the orange shirt while on a GT mission (training or actual).
Quote from: pierson777 on April 16, 2010, 10:53:13 PM
The only place in the supplement that it says "suggest" is where it describes the background of creation of the CAWG GT uniform.
RiverAux was implying that since CA only "suggested" the change, then CAWG didn't have to make the change.
Okay, I am confused. I have to wear the BBDU's but can't wear the blouse, only the Caltrans shirt. But I can wear a Blue M1 field jacket as outerwear? If I am wearing my CALTRANS shirt and an M1 BDU Winter Jacket, do I still have to wear the Caltrans vest? Do I sew CAP Bling to the Jacket, and with our without grade?
Major Lord
You didn't really expect anything coming out of Van Nuys to be complete and logical and without conflicting information, did you?
Quote from: Major Lord on April 16, 2010, 11:25:20 PM
Okay, I am confused. I have to wear the BBDU's but can't wear the blouse, only the Caltrans shirt. But I can wear a Blue M1 field jacket as outerwear? If I am wearing my CALTRANS shirt and an M1 BDU Winter Jacket, do I still have to wear the Caltrans vest? Do I sew CAP Bling to the Jacket, and with our without grade?
Major Lord
It never gets cold in California...
Quote from: N Harmon on April 16, 2010, 09:36:46 PM
Orange vests are sufficient, there's no reason to try and make us look like local SAR units.
I agree.
Is this a REQUIRMENT in CAWG?
That is....no CAP members may particapate in ground SAR unless they have this uniform or is it optional?
If it is required....what about cross border operations? Do the CAWG guys know that they can't wear that when the cross over to NV....and do us NVWG guys have to get a set when we support CAWG?
Don't we have enough uniform problems with out this added distraction?
Just change the whole uniform to a bright orange jumpsuit and be done with it. I'm sure we can get them surplus from the department of corrections.
Quote from: Marshalus on April 17, 2010, 01:02:21 AM
Just change the whole uniform to a bright orange jumpsuit and be done with it. I'm sure we can get them surplus from the department of corrections.
I chuckled a little on that one. I can see it now...the CAP Defiant Ones!!!
Quote from: Major Lord on April 16, 2010, 11:25:20 PM
Okay, I am confused. I have to wear the BBDU's but can't wear the blouse, only the Caltrans shirt. But I can wear a Blue M1 field jacket as outerwear? If I am wearing my CALTRANS shirt and an M1 BDU Winter Jacket, do I still have to wear the Caltrans vest? Do I sew CAP Bling to the Jacket, and with our without grade?
Major Lord
SILENCE! HOW DARE YOU USE LOGIC. APPLYING LOGIC TO ANY CAP UNIFORM PROCESS IS PROHIBITED.
Why does it even matter? Clearly nobody would ever get lost in the Sierra Nevada.
The only "niche" uniform I'm buying, well, have bought, is the green bag. I'm not buying something else that has an even more limited use.
Basically, you need to have the CALTrans orange on, or the orange vest over whatever you have on.
Anyone have a clue as to why CA EMA wants this?
Quote from: ZigZag911 on April 17, 2010, 05:07:27 AM
Anyone have a clue as to why CA EMA wants this?
Probably because we are the only SAR organization that I have ever seen that wears camo. Like it or not, but wearing orange actually makes sense for all the safety reasons.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on April 17, 2010, 05:07:27 AM
Anyone have a clue as to why CA EMA wants this?
The majority of non CAP ground SAR teams in CA wear the orange shirt and the BDUs have been a source of conflict when working with those teams. In CA the county sheriff owns the ground in SAR matters and CAP ground teams operate at the pleasure of the sheriff so it makes sense to get along. The reality is that most of the local sheriffs don't need CAP ground teams. Their own teams far exceed anything CAP has to offer in terms of training and resources.
This orange stuff isn't new either, it was being done and now finally got a regulation for it that is officially acknowledged. As you can see, it's very finite in when the uniform combination can be used.
But if you take a look in the older thread about the controversial DF'ing equipment you will see photos that have had the CAP branch tapes 'shopped away, though they even were visible when the images were first published, and these go back several years.
Up to this era they were using the uniform combination at the base and for nearly any operations except flight crew and without it being written in any regulation or policy, telling folks they could not participate unless they adopted it, too.
..and they complain about participation. At least the current policy now strongly recommends it, but stops short of requiring it other than the orange reflective vest, or the orange shirt.
Colorado Wing, back in the 80's, ground teams used orange shirts, with name tape and CAP tape only. Worked fine.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on April 17, 2010, 05:07:27 AM
Anyone have a clue as to why CA EMA wants this?
Let's see BDU's = military
California=Land of Fruits and nuts...
(http://www.sternfannetwork.com/forum/images/smilies/Animations/punk.gif)
Quote from: ZigZag911 on April 17, 2010, 05:07:27 AM
Anyone have a clue as to why CA EMA wants this?
Because just about all of the various County Sheriff Search and Rescue Teams wear orange shirts already.
They're going for standardization.
And in California, per state law, the Sheriff of each County (all 58 of them) is responsible for all Search and Rescue activities in their county.
We operate in their county at their pleasure. So we try to make them happy.
CAP has been barred from doing SAR in certain counties in the past. And there's nothing CAP or even AFRCC can do about it either.
They were barred because of uniforms?
They were barred because somebody in CAP had a "run in" with the Sheriff Department SAR Team and the Sheriff decided to "eliminate" the problem.
In one county we had to wait several years until a new sheriff was elected before we were allowed to operate in their county again.
I'm confused as to just what purpose "standarization" in clothing worn by SAR teams does for anybody. What harm is there in different SAR organizations having different uniforms?
Standardized training, sure. But if one team would rather wear an orange vest than an orange shirt, what difference does that make to the effectiveness of the mission?
Quote from: RiverAux on April 17, 2010, 02:04:52 PM
I'm confused as to just what purpose "standarization" in clothing worn by SAR teams does for anybody. What harm is there in different SAR organizations having different uniforms?
Standardized training, sure. But if one team would rather wear an orange vest than an orange shirt, what difference does that make to the effectiveness of the mission?
It doesn't matter what you, me, or anything in CAP thinks. It matters what the boys CAP is working under thinks.
Well. with the thousands of ground team personnel just sitting by the phone waiting for a mission, I am sure that by adding yet another layer of restrictions ( the latest having been the "grounding " of CAP Vans) we will have no trouble staffing missions.......oh wait, we can hardly do that now....never mind.......
Its gratifying to know though, that other agency's leaders must have had "Ken" dolls too, and have dedicated their lives to revolve around the next new costume that Mattel produces.
Major Lord
I have NO problem with the orange shirts, in fact I prefer them to orange vests. However, I do find it entertaining that plenty of SAR organizations in CA do not wear the orange shirts or coats. Is this "standard" only for wilderness SAR? Plenty of USAR teams wear blue. Do a search in Google images. Some sheriff SAR teams wear khaki shirts, still more visible than camo, but not orange. Case in point: http://vcsar1.org/photos4.html These folks are not sworn deputies, they are civilian volunteers. Are they less "safe" than our CAP GSAR folks? ;-) Some SAR teams are all reserve deputies, like LA County, so they wear "ruggedized" sheriff uniforms but still look like cops.
CAWG can make their rule and it is probably best from a political standpoint to play well with other children. Showing up for a ground search looking like a Christmas tree (green with bling) or Rambo doesn't help our image with the SAR community. Of course professional conduct helps, but our members don't always provide that do they?
If my wing still allowed GSAR to wear orange shirts I would do so in a heartbeat. It's not appropriate for all CAP assignments, but for GSAR in the boonies it would be fine.
An interesting article regarding high visibility uniforms and safety. http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_13312243
Cooperating with customers is one thing, having them mandate our uniform (orange shirts) is kind of extreme...if they required the vests, well, that's "gear" rather than uniform, strikes me as more reasonable.
Oh well, thanks for the explanations...strikes me as strange, but then, I live in New Jersey, which opens a whole other set of stories!
These concepts beought forth here must be wreaking havoc with those people that want us to have subdued nametapes. >:D
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 17, 2010, 05:29:03 PM
These concepts beought forth here must be wreaking havoc with those people that want us to have subdued nametapes. >:D
Nope. Orange shirt with subdued nametapes would work just as well. 8)
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 17, 2010, 05:29:03 PM
These concepts beought forth here must be wreaking havoc with those people that want us to have subdued nametapes. >:D
Not really. The idea behind wanting subdued tapes with white lettering is because it doesn't look gaudy like the ultramarine tapes do. Similarly, navy blue tapes on the BBDUs.
I don't care about the orange shirt except that it carry navy blue tapes and insignia that match the pants. Of course, I'm sure the supplement means ultramarine tapes, and not "blue tapes".
The question here is whether having an additional uniform item provides enough extra safety to justify the cost, and the problem is the ones making that decision don't have to bear the cost.
Quote from: N Harmon on April 17, 2010, 08:02:03 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 17, 2010, 05:29:03 PM
These concepts beought forth here must be wreaking havoc with those people that want us to have subdued nametapes. >:D
Not really. The idea behind wanting subdued tapes with white lettering is because it doesn't look gaudy like the ultramarine tapes do.
uh...and a ridiculous ORANGE shirt invoking "chain gangs" won't do that. (sorry, that was a cheap shot...but I really don't care one way or the other about this item. My point was more a criticism of UNIFORM threads in general and how no one stands a chance to get these agendas across because there are likely an equal number of people that "hate" everything that wasn't their idea.)
Quote from: PA Guy on April 17, 2010, 05:23:12 AM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on April 17, 2010, 05:07:27 AM
Anyone have a clue as to why CA EMA wants this?
The majority of non CAP ground SAR teams in CA wear the orange shirt and the BDUs have been a source of conflict when working with those teams.
Why?
I'll second that question. Seeing as how most CAP members around the country seem to work pretty well with the local while wearing our standard uniform I'm not sure how any "conflict" can solely be based upon the uniform.
Quote from: RiverAux on April 17, 2010, 10:52:54 PM
I'll second that question. Seeing as how most CAP members around the country seem to work pretty well with the local while wearing our standard uniform I'm not sure how any "conflict" can solely be based upon the uniform.
Who said it was
solely based on the uniform? There could have been other issues and the "uniform" could have been the leverage. Politics and/or pettiness happen outside of CAP too...
Quote from: shorning on April 17, 2010, 10:57:41 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on April 17, 2010, 10:52:54 PM
I'll second that question. Seeing as how most CAP members around the country seem to work pretty well with the local while wearing our standard uniform I'm not sure how any "conflict" can solely be based upon the uniform.
Who said it was solely based on the uniform? There could have been other issues and the "uniform" could have been the leverage. Politics and/or pettiness happen outside of CAP too...
Thats my point. I can certainly see CAP members and locals getting crossways over a lot of things, but don't see any way that our uniforms could have been a factor as was suggested in an earlier post.
Quote from: RiverAux on April 17, 2010, 11:02:54 PM
Quote from: shorning on April 17, 2010, 10:57:41 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on April 17, 2010, 10:52:54 PM
I'll second that question. Seeing as how most CAP members around the country seem to work pretty well with the local while wearing our standard uniform I'm not sure how any "conflict" can solely be based upon the uniform.
Who said it was solely based on the uniform? There could have been other issues and the "uniform" could have been the leverage. Politics and/or pettiness happen outside of CAP too...
Thats my point. I can certainly see CAP members and locals getting crossways over a lot of things, but don't see any way that our uniforms could have been a factor as was suggested in an earlier post.
Methinks you're being intentionally dense. I've read enough of your posts that I would presume you could hypothizie how that might come about...
...unless you're just trying to stir the pot...
No, I really can't think of a single reason for our uniforms to get the locals mad at us.
Now, if you're talking about CAP members trying to throw their officer "weight" around, that is a whole different thing that has very little to do with the uniforms themselves. Some CAP Lt. Col. that is likely to try to tell some county deputy what to do based on their CAP rank is going to try to do that whether they've got leaves on their collar or not.
Quote from: RiverAux on April 17, 2010, 11:14:48 PM
No, I really can't think of a single reason for our uniforms to get the locals mad at us.
Now, if you're talking about CAP members trying to throw their officer "weight" around, that is a whole different thing that has very little to do with the uniforms themselves. Some CAP Lt. Col. that is likely to try to tell some county deputy what to do based on their CAP rank is going to try to do that whether they've got leaves on their collar or not.
That's the point...the issue
ain't about the uniform...that was just the "tool" used to not allow CAP to play. Heck, a SD could have just as easily ding a unit for not having 4x4's to do SAR work. After all...a 12 pax van? Really? But I digress...
Then altering our uniforms won't make a bit of difference. Those sheriffs who don't like CAP aren't going to be any more likely to use CAP now than they were before. They have no need to make up excuses like "they're in camo uniforms and it will be hard to maintain a search line". They have total authority to just say, "No, I don't want to use them".
That being the case there doesn't appear to have been any real need to make this change.
Until such time as they make National Guard troops switch to orange shirts while on SARs, I see no reason we need to. Our orange vests are a more than reasonable approach to visibility issues.
Quote from: RiverAux on April 18, 2010, 02:24:12 AM
Then altering our uniforms won't make a bit of difference. Those sheriffs who don't like CAP aren't going to be any more likely to use CAP now than they were before. They have no need to make up excuses like "they're in camo uniforms and it will be hard to maintain a search line". They have total authority to just say, "No, I don't want to use them".
That being the case there doesn't appear to have been any real need to make this change.
Until such time as they make National Guard troops switch to orange shirts while on SARs, I see no reason we need to. Our orange vests are a more than reasonable approach to visibility issues.
We really don't do many search lines in California. There's very little level ground that isn't covered by developments or farm fields. And it's pretty hard to hide behind a head of lettice.
Quote from: RiverAux on April 18, 2010, 02:24:12 AM
Then altering our uniforms won't make a bit of difference. Those sheriffs who don't like CAP aren't going to be any more likely to use CAP now than they were before. They have no need to make up excuses like "they're in Cami uniforms and it will be hard to maintain a search line". They have total authority to just say, "No, I don't want to use them".
That being the case there doesn't appear to have been any real need to make this change.
Until such time as they make National Guard troops switch to orange shirts while on SA Rs, I see no reason we need to. Our orange vests are a more than reasonable approach to visibility issues.
National Guard ground troops aren't utilized in CA for SAR, only the aviation assets. When CAARNG troops go on fire duty they wear the wildland firefighters ensemble.
The BDU uniform is
perceived as a negative by the sheriff's ground teams. It is seen by them as enhancing the wannabe image and this is further reinforced when we pull up in the proverbial white van and a bunch of 4ft tall cadets pile out looking like they bought out the local army surplus stores.
There have been instances where the wearing of grade has created confusion or has been abused, thus no grade on the orange shirt. CAP personnel have been verbally abused with comments like, "hey can I be a general too" etc.
The Orange shirt was originated in CAWG approx. 20 yrs ago. It was an attempt to bring CAP ground teams closer to the sheriff's ground teams. I guess you could say a more collegial relationship. CAP ground teams are not the pros from Dover when it comes to ground ops in CA.
Most of the sheriff's ground teams in CA have training, equipment and resources CAP could only dream about. Compared to some of the SAR teams I have encountered around the country, particularly in the SE, CA is a galaxy away by comparison. They are trained in NIMS/ICS, most require a NASAR cert. and most are Mountain Rescue Assoc. qualified. They have vehicles appropriate to the area and access to aviation assets CAP would drool over. How may CAP units have their own Sikorsky H-3 to airlift their ground teams? The point is if CAWG ground teams want to play they need to gain some acceptance and try to fit in and this shirt has been shown to help.
Now you can be as obtuse as you like and approve or not approve or not see the logic it doesn't really matter and the reasons for this change have been explained over and over. Or better yet, come on out and hike a mile in our boots.
Quote from: PA Guy on April 18, 2010, 05:21:53 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on April 18, 2010, 02:24:12 AM
Then altering our uniforms won't make a bit of difference. Those sheriffs who don't like CAP aren't going to be any more likely to use CAP now than they were before. They have no need to make up excuses like "they're in Cami uniforms and it will be hard to maintain a search line". They have total authority to just say, "No, I don't want to use them".
That being the case there doesn't appear to have been any real need to make this change.
Until such time as they make National Guard troops switch to orange shirts while on SA Rs, I see no reason we need to. Our orange vests are a more than reasonable approach to visibility issues.
National Guard ground troops aren't utilized in CA for SAR, only the aviation assets. When CAARNG troops go on fire duty they wear the wildland firefighters ensemble.
The BDU uniform is perceived as a negative by the sheriff's ground teams. It is seen by them as enhancing the wannabe image and this is further reinforced when we pull up in the proverbial white van and a bunch of 4ft tall cadets pile out looking like they bought out the local army surplus stores.
There have been instances where the wearing of grade has created confusion or has been abused, thus no grade on the orange shirt. CAP personnel have been verbally abused with comments like, "hey can I be a general too" etc.
The Orange shirt was originated in CAWG approx. 20 yrs ago. It was an attempt to bring CAP ground teams closer to the sheriff's ground teams. I guess you could say a more collegial relationship. CAP ground teams are not the pros from Dover when it comes to ground ops in CA.
Most of the sheriff's ground teams in CA have training, equipment and resources CAP could only dream about. Compared to some of the SAR teams I have encountered around the country, particularly in the SE, CA is a galaxy away by comparison. They are trained in NIMS/ICS, most require a NASAR cert. and most are Mountain Rescue Assoc. qualified. They have vehicles appropriate to the area and access to aviation assets CAP would drool over. How may CAP units have their own Sikorsky H-3 to airlift their ground teams? The point is if CAWG ground teams want to play they need to gain some acceptance and try to fit in and this shirt has been shown to help.
Now you can be as obtuse as you like and approve or not approve or not see the logic it doesn't really matter and the reasons for this change have been explained over and over. Or better yet, come on out and hike a mile in our boots.
And the kicker is that most of the Sheriff Ground Teams are Reserve Deputies. They're volunteers who get paid $1.00 a year.
Yeah they get a badge, but they usually pay for their uniforms and their personal equipment. Sound familiar???
But they get way more training then we get and they get to use much better equipment then we have too.
The things we as CAP can offer are fixed wing aircraft with DF and Photo capabilities and Ground Teams that know how to DF.
And we usually have more experience in aircraft searches while they are much better at missing hiker searches.
So we do tend to compliment each others skills.
So it's in our best interest to make nice because they can tell us to go home and there ain't a whole lot we can do about it.
Quote from: PA Guy on April 18, 2010, 05:21:53 AM
The BDU uniform is perceived as a negative by the sheriff's ground teams. It is seen by them as enhancing the wannabe image and this is further reinforced when we pull up in the proverbial white van and a bunch of 4ft tall cadets pile out looking like they bought out the local army surplus stores.
There have been instances where the wearing of grade has created confusion or has been abused, thus no grade on the orange shirt. CAP personnel have been verbally abused with comments like, "hey can I be a general too" etc.
So, rather than address the ACTUAL problem, which would seem to be the lack of respect for the abilities of cadets we have trained in ground SAR or senior members who think they can get away with telling someone in other agencies what to do, our approach is to try to make cosmetic changes in our appearance?
With that line of reasoning no wonder CA Wing hasn't been successful in doing much SAR work with the locals.
Quote from: RiverAux on April 18, 2010, 01:18:21 PMSo, rather than address the ACTUAL problem, which would seem to be the lack of respect for the abilities of cadets we have trained in ground SAR or senior members who think they can get away with telling someone in other agencies what to do, our approach is to try to make cosmetic changes in our appearance?
With that line of reasoning no wonder CA Wing hasn't been successful in doing much SAR work with the locals.
And thus the 'dysfunctionality' of CAP that has festered into an open sore over the years. NY has the same problem.
As someone who was a cadet in the 70's I have become disappointed in what CAP has become. Time to set down my bars...
So, local SAR teams in California have people, equipment, and resources far and wide greater than what CAP provides. Great! They don't need CAP assistance, so why are we bending over backwards to give it to them? It seems like CAP is trying desperately to fit into a already crowded party, and is sacrifices too much to do so.
And how far is CAP willing to go to capitulate to locals? If tomorrow someone start remarking that Civil Air Patrol uses the word "Patrol" in their name, and that makes them wannabes of the highway patrol; is CAP then going to order removal of CAP tapes from the ground team uniform? The CAWG GT uniform already prohibits military badges; if CAP badges are seen as too militaristic and causes remarks from locals, will those be next to be removed from the uniform?
I sometimes think CAP needs to evaluate where it can be effective, and concentrate on those areas.
It's a great idea to wear orange along with the blue BDU pants. I agree that senior members shouldn't be wearing camo/green BDU's anywhere. It's time to stop playing army and start playing professional >:D
Even in our state the state police mentioned that many years ago about wearing something else so that there would be no confusion between their tactical teams and CAP teams. The wing never did adress the comment head on, and we don't participate in any missions which the State Police at this time. I don't think the uniform issue is the prime reason why we don't participate. However, the state SAR "lost persons" plan places the state police as the controlling agency.
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on April 18, 2010, 02:43:19 PM
It's a great idea to wear orange along with the blue BDU pants. I agree that senior members shouldn't be wearing camo/green BDU's anywhere. It's time to stop playing army and start playing professional >:D
Yes, we're not infantry. As many have pointed out in this thread and others, cammies aren't the best uniform for SAR. Cadets (who constitute a large proportion of our ground teams) wear woodland BDUs in the field simply because that is what they are issued. (I wear BBDUs for ES work, although I have cammies and AF service dress with my military bling for squadron meetings, public events, and cadet programs.)
For reasons of visibility, organizational identity, and less confusion when working with other agencies, I think that orange & blue make a good combination for a CAP field uniform. Orange and blue are the international Civil Defense (CD) colors. The international CD symbol, used by most countries, is the triangle in a circle, usually in blue and orange. CAP has civil defense missions (and originally was established as the aviation arm of the federal civil defense system). Overseas, most civil defense agencies (even those legally constituted as stand-alone military forces) seem to outfit their personnel in blue field uniforms and/or firefighter-type uniforms & protective gear that are brightly colored or have flourescent markings.
Quote from: Major Lord on April 17, 2010, 03:39:04 PMIts gratifying to know though, that other agency's leaders must have had "Ken" dolls too,
Major Lord
I am personally offended that you would take such a cheap shot at the wing commander in a public forum!
He is a widely respected police officer who has repeatedly put his life on the line for the likes of you and me.
(Although he does dress well, and I could see why other agencies might admire that . . .)
I would fathom that the pumpkin uniform does not have grade and badges on it, that keeps it simple, and like there would be a snowballs chance in hell to get it approved in the first place.
Now.. if those are actual valid reasons for pursuing this uniform option, that the Sheriff's look at us as a youth organization and wannabes that are military surplus store raiders.. Why did they get that impression?
Why not get to the root of the problem? Why put a patch on it? Doing various research on CA SAR organizations, I do find some instances of orange shirts. However, I find WAY more occurrence in city/county public works departments and of course, CALTrans.
Is it any surprise that this got publicized right after the EMT got killed on the Cabrillo Freeway?
Are we even supposed to put our selves in situations like that?
There are a few folks, ironically, that work out of the same general area who look at the regulations as being "guidelines" and "suggestions", so they're not going to listen anyway. Whats the point?
If "they won't play with us" because we don't wear orange, that suggests a more sinister problem and the "wannabe" syndrome will be just the same. The color of the uniform does not change this. The way the organization conducts itself, the way command allows the organization to conduct itself, is the problem here. Until there is wholesale change in that, we can dress in business suits, Neon SWAT outfits, or whatever. It won't matter.
..and for an agency that serves at the desire of the county sheriff, we sure do get used an awful lot.
I wholly suspect the issue portrayed here is very isolated and due to the actions of specific individuals. I also suspect the use of orange uniforms in California isn't that much out of proportion to other states and based on this thread I don't see any evidence of other wings' having the same issue of not being taken seriously because we don't wear what they wear.
I'm of the opinion that this orange thing has been some small core groups pet thing for years and they finally got their light of day with it. Just based on the experience I've had in certain geographic areas of southern California, and having been somewhat involved with ES experiences in other parts of the state, I've only ever seen this orange stuff being used in L.A. County, by a select few, and citing all kinds of things without any regulation or policy to back it up. Ever. As far back as 2004.
As I mentioned, these folks were actually declaring this to be "the" uniform, not just GT, but the uniform for anything but flight crew. If you didn't wear, you couldn't go, they would tell you. But could never back it up. So they got their own core group of participants every time. ..and then can rightfully cite that "no one responds" because the put in place a layer of exclusion without any authority. So it took a few years, and they got a teeny bit of authority, if you can consider it that. The policy letter stops short of requiring it, other than some sort of visibility method being mandatory. We have orange vests with the L-Per's, in our case. Don't know what everyone else has. But given the choice of one uniform that does the job, and not having to worry about changing tops before walking into the base, or out to the vehicle to do whatever duty, I know what I'm inclined to stick with.
I am stunned at the vitriol in some posts on this topic. CAWG is responding to some political realities, whether they like them or not. The alternative is taking our toys and going home which would be incredibly childish. Some posts have suggested doing just that, in apparent ignorance of the value CAP ground teams can offer...even in California. (It's true some sheriff SAR teams have training and gear that some countries envy. It's also true there are some smaller counties where CAP can contribute. Or larger counties that aren't too impressed with themselves to accept useful assistance.)
The CA ground team uniform has been around for a long time. Updating the pertinent regulations isn't exactly changing their world.
Anytime I head into the boonies I sport all the orange I can find. Some folks out there are carrying guns; hunting season or not. Orange vests are marginally OK, but they are often covered by backpacks and various other gear. How many people REALLY attach another vest to their packs? Really?
The argument about yet another expense are a little weak. Most GTM's have far more money in their packs, boots, and gear than plenty orange shirts. If I can't afford a cheap orange work shirt and a few patches, I probably can't afford to drive to my CAP meetings.
I'll wear an orange shirt as appropriate or required and I've never played with dolls. If I ever decide my uniform is more important than the mission, point me to one of those wannabe whacker groups with a screwed up uniform & gear to mission & training ratio.
Quotethe commonly adopted SAR uniform recognized by law enforcement nationwide.
Incidentally, I would like to find some document to back up this statement from the CA Wing supplement.
Note the idiocy here:
QuoteThe CAWG GT uniform is not authorized for:
· Ground Team or UDF Team members while transporting to or from a search base, or at a search base in a out of service status
In order to go out on a GT mission, you actually have to bring two shirts with you. You have to wear the BBDU shirt while driving to the base or while waiting for assignment, then you have to change into the orange shirt to go hike around and then change back into the blue shirt before going home. If they feel the need to wear the orange shirt, just wear it during the entire mission. Just how good looking are these shirts going to be after being wadded up in a pack during the time you're wearing the other one.
Quote from: Ned on April 18, 2010, 03:56:13 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on April 17, 2010, 03:39:04 PMIts gratifying to know though, that other agency's leaders must have had "Ken" dolls too,
Major Lord
I am personally offended that you would take such a cheap shot at the wing commander in a public forum!
He is a widely respected police officer who has repeatedly put his life on the line for the likes of you and me.
(Although he does dress well, and I could see why other agencies might admire that . . .)
No offense was intended to the Wing Commander, but I do object to CAP's childish fixation on uniforms and its good to know that we are not the sole victims of this fashionista compulsiveness. I am offended by your clear homophobic anti-"ken" doll prejudice! (just kidding) Many CAP members believe that Ken is an "Action Figure", and not a doll, so its not so poofish...... The Commanders' standing as a LEO is respected and appreciated. I also understand the OPD "Barbie" is a great collectible, and looks stunning in Kevlar.....
Major Lord
Quote from: wuzafuzz on April 18, 2010, 05:01:35 PMThe alternative is taking our toys and going home which would be incredibly childish. Some posts have suggested doing just that, in apparent ignorance of the value CAP ground teams can offer...even in California.
Taking our toys and going home? No quite. You see, CAP doesn't go until it is called to go, and until that happens there is nothing to take our toys home from. Those places in California that truly need CAP assistance won't care what uniform we wear as long as it is semi-professional.
And the issue of added expense is never weak, especially when it is the volunteer footing the bill.
By the way, where can one purchase one of these orange BDU shirts? I can't seem to find them from my usual sources.
Quote from: N Harmon on April 18, 2010, 07:20:15 PM
By the way, where can one purchase one of these orange BDU shirts? I can't seem to find them from my usual sources.
They're not "BDU" shirts. They're the same shirts that CalTrans employees wear. They can usually be found in uniform stores.
Of course if you're not in California and your state highway department employees don't wear orange shirts then you're on your own.
But I'm sure places like Galls would have something.
Hell, let's just wear this instead!
(http://www.milspecmonkey.com/shirts/zombie-shirt-001.jpg)
Quote from: N Harmon on April 18, 2010, 07:19:02 PM
Quote from: wuzafuzz on April 18, 2010, 05:01:35 PMThe alternative is taking our toys and going home which would be incredibly childish. Some posts have suggested doing just that, in apparent ignorance of the value CAP ground teams can offer...even in California.
Taking our toys and going home? No quite. You see, CAP doesn't go until it is called to go, and until that happens there is nothing to take our toys home from. Those places in California that truly need CAP assistance won't care what uniform we wear as long as it is semi-professional.
And the issue of added expense is never weak, especially when it is the volunteer footing the bill.
If no one ever called there would be no need for the uniform. People do call, but it would be nice if they called more often.
Using a
minimal expense as an excuse to avoid doing something IS weak. Anyone who can drop a lot of money on all their GT gear can afford an
inexpensive orange shirt. I've seen the lightweight orange shirts (button-up, not tee shirts) for well under $20 at WalMart. Far less expensive than plenty of other uniform items we use.
To RiverAux's point: yes, it is completely absurd to be required to change out of that orange shirt during transport or waiting for assignment. Following their logic, flightsuits should be banned while waiting for flights. >:D
http://adirondack-books.com/sargear/teamshirt.htm
Major Lord
Quote from: wuzafuzz on April 18, 2010, 09:25:53 PM
If no one ever called there would be no need for the uniform. People do call, but it would be nice if they called more often.
So, these local governments...having exhausted their local resources, are in need of CAP assistance but not so much that they still feel the need to inject their own sensibilities in what we wear as a uniform. ???
Quote from: Major Lord on April 18, 2010, 09:32:48 PM
http://adirondack-books.com/sargear/teamshirt.htm
Major Lord
Not available in standard BBDU sizes. :P
My take for its .02
Local governments are losing the resources due to many factors, so I don't see what that has to to do with injecting uniform issues
CAP has many problems with its OWN uniform issues as evidenced by 78.9999999% of the thread content of CAPTalk...
CAP just ought to remember.......its the customer who asks for us...bantering on CAPTalk about local government and how screwed up it is or may seem......CAP just ought to stop throwing stones until it gets it entire house in order
CAP is begging for missions, but sometimes doesn't have the capacity to stop biting the hands that feed it as far as issuance of missions.
Folks from the EMA's are probably reading these forums wondering who these folks are. If CAl EMA / CAL Trans wants polka dots on Nomex, that is their call. Either we meet the requirement or go home.
CAP is a fine organization. But, by itself, lacks any real horsepower, in making major local statute or rule changes on other SAR organizations workings and maybe better off in getting itself right on a totally new uniform that, at least makes sense for the missions we do and if that requires a new set of clothing, so be it, It'll keep Propper, MilSpec, and even VANGUARD in business for a loooooooooong time to come!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
The question?
How many Ground Team Members do we actually have in CAWG??
Less than 20? Maybe 30?
CAWG is a paper Tiger in Ground SAR
So what is the Big Deal?
Quote from: wingnut55 on April 19, 2010, 07:43:27 PM
The question?
How many Ground Team Members do we actually have in CAWG??
Less than 20? Maybe 30?
CAWG is a paper Tiger in Ground SAR
So what is the Big Deal?
CAWG Currently has over 30 qualified GTL's and about 120 qualified GTM's.
Quote from: Jerry Jacobs on April 19, 2010, 08:17:44 PM
Quote from: wingnut55 on April 19, 2010, 07:43:27 PM
The question?
How many Ground Team Members do we actually have in CAWG??
Less than 20? Maybe 30?
CAWG is a paper Tiger in Ground SAR
So what is the Big Deal?
CAWG Currently has over 30 qualified GTL's and about 120 qualified GTM's.
How many answer the phone when called or have participated in a mission in the last calendar year?
If the State of California (our client) wants our members to wear a special shirt for safety and security reasons during SARs and NHQ allows it, what's all the fuss about? We should be happy and proud that California wants to utilize us. So get the item, put it in your day bag if your are a CAWG GTM, train up, and be ready to go when called. For the rest of us? Move along. Nothing to see here. 8)
Quote from: Jerry Jacobs on April 19, 2010, 08:17:44 PM
Quote from: wingnut55 on April 19, 2010, 07:43:27 PM
The question?
How many Ground Team Members do we actually have in CAWG??
Less than 20? Maybe 30?
CAWG is a paper Tiger in Ground SAR
So what is the Big Deal?
CAWG Currently has over 30 qualified GTL's and about 120 qualified GTM's.
:o
My group, which is less than a third of my wing has 12 GTLs and 63 GTMs. My wing has 44 GTLs. Last I heard CAWG had four times the members that we do. Maybe they should worry about more important things than clothes?
Well, if CA Wing has been so thoroughly excluded from GSAR work as it has been based on comments made on CAPTalk at various times, we shouldn't be surprised at those pitifully weak numbers. But, if you want a weak GSAR program, look at Oregon (4 GTL, 10 GTM). Texas, which has a similar number of CAP members has 99 GTL and 238 GTM.
Wow, I didn't even take notice of how weak those numbers are considering the size of CAWG.
I just did a quick count and my wing has over 50 GTLs and more than 60GT's (on top pf the GTL's, of course).
And we're less than 1/2 CAWG.
Quote from: tdepp on April 19, 2010, 09:34:58 PM
If the State of California (our client) wants our members to wear a special shirt for safety and security reasons during SARs and NHQ allows it, what's all the fuss about?
It begs the question that special orange shirts increase safety or security. If the State of California wants our members to wear the flag of the state of California instead of that of the United States, would you be asking what the fuss is about?
Quote from: N Harmon on April 19, 2010, 11:57:54 PM
Quote from: tdepp on April 19, 2010, 09:34:58 PM
If the State of California (our client) wants our members to wear a special shirt for safety and security reasons during SARs and NHQ allows it, what's all the fuss about?
It begs the question that special orange shirts increase safety or security. If the State of California wants our members to wear the flag of the state of California instead of that of the United States, would you be asking what the fuss is about?
N:
But alas, they're not asking our members to wear the Golden Bear Flag patch. They're asking us to wear orange. We already have orange vests. And NHQ approves the limited wear of the California Distinctive SAR Shirt or whatever the hail it is called. So, not even close to the same scenario. Consider your strawman sufficiently burned up. >:D Now move along, nothing to see here.
Besides, we already have the golden bear on the wing patch. >:D
Dealing with politics and power trippers back in the day, it took nearly three years to get UDF qualified.
Heck, I had the commander refuse to push ahead my 101 card request for mission observer because "the IC didn't sign off the blocks", he, being a ground pounder, was sure the IC had to do it.
... even though the training took place in the aircraft, away from the IC, under the supervision and authority of the mission pilot.
Go figure. ;-)
Yeah, lots of reasons why there are so few GTL/GTM's on the books.
Quote from: SarDragon on April 20, 2010, 07:29:42 AM
Besides, we already have the golden bear on the wing patch. >:D
SarDragon:
Personally, I think the California State flag is awesomely cool. :) And on a completely unrelated note, with the exception of the Los Angeles metro area, I'm one Midwesterner who thinks California is perhaps America's most diversely beautiful state with the best weather in the USA. I understand why people wanted to settle there and still want to move there. I'm not a Cali Hater. I just wish you'd import some of your nice winter weather to SoDak in January and February when it's -30 here. ;D
Quote from: tdepp on April 20, 2010, 05:29:24 AM
But alas, they're not asking our members to wear the Golden Bear Flag patch. They're asking us to wear orange. We already have orange vests. And NHQ approves the limited wear of the California Distinctive SAR Shirt or whatever the hail it is called. So, not even close to the same scenario. Consider your strawman sufficiently burned up. >:D Now move along, nothing to see here.
A strawman is an argument, whereas I asked a hypothetical question. But don't let me stop you from exercising your logic vocabulary. The question was to what extent should states dictate what the CAP uniform is, and all you did was dodge it.
Personally? Blue shirt or orange shirt...doesn't matter to me. But don't give me BS about it being for "safety" or "security".
^ If you think a client, i.e., California, wanting our GTMs to wear a certain shirt is "dictating," fine. But it wasn't without NHQ approval. What our client wants us to do in this case isn't crazy, insane, disgraceful, unsafe, or even a terrible fashion statement. They had what they thought were good reasons. Sounds like this all went through proper channels. Unless you think every other state is going to want some silly thing for our uniforms, please enlighten me as to what the actual problem is that we're arguing about?
From previous postings on this thread, the bigger problem sounds like a lack of numbers for trained GTMs in California, given its large size, population, and large number of commercial, business, and general aviation interests and participants. That's something more important to worry about and fix (if indeed it needs fixing) than what shirt they wear while looking for people and aircraft.
CAPTalk: Where every issue is eventually about uniforms. :D
^^^
You are correct, Sir!!
Uniforms is the "POWER" behind the CAP SAR eerrrrr search and locate program.
Yes CAPTalk lowers itself to uniform discussion every time it can.....
Just THINK of the energy one could harness out of these folks...they could be CAP Superheros and really make a program go.....
If CA WG has that low of numbers for that great of an area.........well plenty of us can get that picture.
Hey, CAP!! How about a new uniform altogether? ONE service uniform of a civilian color and is selected for ALLLLL CAP volunteers
Uniform geeeks....sheesh!
Quote from: heliodoc on April 20, 2010, 05:41:15 PM
^^^
You are correct, Sir!!
Uniforms is the "POWER" behind the CAP SAR eerrrrr search and locate program.
Yes CAPTalk lowers itself to uniform discussion every time it can.....
Just THINK of the energy one could harness out of these folks...they could be CAP Superheros and really make a program go.....
If CA WG has that low of numbers for that great of an area.........well plenty of us can get that picture.
Hey, CAP!! How about a new uniform altogether? ONE service uniform of a civilian color and is selected for ALLLLL CAP volunteers
Uniform geeeks....sheesh!
I'm really tired of you. If you don't like it leave. You are on the uniform portion of the board in a thread about a specific uniform. What do you expect to read about? This thread was actually turning from uniforms to ops for a change.
^^
Tired? Sorrry you feel that way..
Look at the real thread.....CAPers complaining about a customers (CAL EMA) decision about how THEY do things and then CAPers chirp about it.
Turning from a uniform to ops thread......that IS debatable!! If it is CAL EMA decision...then ALL CAPers just best stand by the decision or STAY home!!
I'm not leaving anytime soon....dropped 110 dinero for the "pleasure" of serving in CAP for 2 more years.
"I'm really tired of you" Is that supposed to chase me away from the board. Some folks on CAPTalk ARE pretty sensitive, aren't they??
..and I'm not convinced it's CAL EMA saying "if you don't, we won't".
You know how asinine that would look? More so than this entire thread. ;-)
While there may be great logic behind it, to say it's just the tip of the iceberg in examples of hoops and hurdles that there seem to be a great many of in this particular wing.
So much so that .. as someone else pointed out, the numbers show it.
Quote from: tdepp on April 20, 2010, 05:21:38 PM
^ If you think a client, i.e., California, wanting our GTMs to wear a certain shirt is "dictating," fine. But it wasn't without NHQ approval.
I don't think anyone has said that they're doing something outside of CAP regulations.
Quote from: heliodoc on April 20, 2010, 06:51:21 PM
^^
Tired? Sorrry you feel that way..
Look at the real thread.....CAPers complaining about a customers (CAL EMA) decision about how THEY do things and then CAPers chirp about it.
Turning from a uniform to ops thread......that IS debatable!! If it is CAL EMA decision...then ALL CAPers just best stand by the decision or STAY home!!
I'm not leaving anytime soon....dropped 110 dinero for the "pleasure" of serving in CAP for 2 more years.
"I'm really tired of you" Is that supposed to chase me away from the board. Some folks on CAPTalk ARE pretty sensitive, aren't they??
I'm tired of you because you NEVER miss a chance to bring CAP down.
Frankly, you've become boring.
Why, thank you PHall,
For the kind CAP comraderie (sp) shared on this site.
It's a very warm feeling............. ;D ;D ;D
I am hesitant to get involved in this thread, but I was reading a post from a blog that I follow, and the authors views are pertinent to the question of how SAR teams treat each other based upon the clothes that they wear. I do not have an opinion on this issue. I simply wanted to share an outsiders perspective.
I will caution that the authors, and commenters of this site sometimes take a salty approach to their tone.
http://www.deathvalleymag.com/2010/04/21/tactical-gear-the-"sar-operator"-does-tactical-gear-have-a-place-in-search-rescue/ (http://www.deathvalleymag.com/2010/04/21/tactical-gear-the-%22sar-operator%22-does-tactical-gear-have-a-place-in-search-rescue/)
Quote from: heliodoc on April 20, 2010, 06:51:21 PM
I'm not leaving anytime soon....dropped 110 dinero for the "pleasure" of serving in CAP for 2 more years.
Why would you spend the money on something you clearly don't like?
You never miss a chance to bash the organization, warranted or not.
Cut your losses. If CAP distresses you so much that you need to complain about it incessantly, then you may as well get out.
Great reference, isuhawkeye!
Good point of view and it does get to the point of toning it down.
Oh and Mr Orr... I am here some of the operational nature, helping CAP understand the FEMA / ICS stuff cuz CAP "invented it" and seems to misinterpret some things and since I am former EM type in both operations and grant world..... I can assit in that.
I am also here for the "free" flying when I can afford and when all the GOB's don't have the airplanes all in use or complaining that the aircraft do not get used enough......
Iusahawkeye raises an interesting point; camo is definitely not the ideal for SAR work, for various reasons (visibility, the 'fear factor' it may inspire in victims or innocent bystanders).
I still think the orange get up is silly, whether it's CA EMA or PA WG Hawk Mtn types advocating it...studies have demonstrated, after all, that a bright yellow is probably the most visible color under almost any circumstances.
Okay...
First.....if CAL OES wants us in the orange shirts...fine. I think however that the "requirment" aspect may be over stated. I did a web search for Cal SAR organisations and I found several that do not wear the orange shirts (but there are many that do).
Second....on the larger issue of the appropriate uniform for any SAR agency....yes camo is not very helpful....but there are many other issues on top of that that make a shirt or an orange vest useless.
When I go out on GSAR I don't wear an orange vest...I have an orange vest that I put over my pack.
Third....the issue about uniformity. This is and always has been a pet peeve with me about CAP uniforms. What ever the uniform chosen...it must be THE UNIFORM...everyone must be in it or you don't play. This CAWG ES uniform only confuses the issue even more. When CAWG goes out of state some of them are going to be in the orange shirt....do we let them play? Also will CAWG let anyone outside of the state play?
I would like to see these issues resolved in some sort of regional publication so us PCR'ers can plan accordingly.
Quote from: lordmonar on April 22, 2010, 06:48:27 PM
Okay...
First.....if CAL OES wants us in the orange shirts...fine. I think however that the "requirment" aspect may be over stated. I did a web search for Cal SAR organisations and I found several that do not wear the orange shirts (but there are many that do).
Second....on the larger issue of the appropriate uniform for any SAR agency....yes camo is not very helpful....but there are many other issues on top of that that make a shirt or an orange vest useless.
When I go out on GSAR I don't wear an orange vest...I have an orange vest that I put over my pack.
Third....the issue about uniformity. This is and always has been a pet peeve with me about CAP uniforms. What ever the uniform chosen...it must be THE UNIFORM...everyone must be in it or you don't play. This CAWG ES uniform only confuses the issue even more. When CAWG goes out of state some of them are going to be in the orange shirt....do we let them play? Also will CAWG let anyone outside of the state play?
I would like to see these issues resolved in some sort of regional publication so us PCR'ers can plan accordingly.
Well let's see Pat. I do believe that more then a couple NVWG personnel have participated in CAWG missions.
And I believe that CAWG personnel have participated in NVWG missions too.
So what's the problem?
The problem is that now CAWG has a new uniform.
I asked it before....is this uniform required or is it optional.
If it is required....will neighboring wings have to wear it to play?
If CAWG comes to NVWG to will they be allowed to wear it?
Right NOW this instant there is no guidance. Hence my wish for regional guidance.
The supplement says it is required. It used to be optional under the old supplement.
Quote from: CAWG CAPM 39-1 SupplementIt is the policy of CAWG that the CAWG GT Uniform shall be worn by all members actively participating as a member of a Ground Team (training or actual).
It is the policy of CAWG that members participating in UDF team operations shall wear one of the following uniform combinations.
(1) CAWG Ground Team Uniform
(2) CAP polo shirt/grey pants corporate uniform
(3) CAP Blue Field uniform
(4) Cadets may wear BDU Uniform.
Note: If CAP Blue Field Uniform or BDU Uniform is worn, wear of an orange safety vest is MANDATORY and must be worn at all times while in the field
It also only mentions BDUs with respect to cadets. Otherwise it's orange, corporate casual or BBDU, and only orange reflector if *BDU. If you choose to stick to only UDF, you can use the orange reflector solution. But if you wish to do GT then you really need both anyway as you can only use the CAWG GT uniform when actually on the task, that is. After being launched only, and when you return to the base you're supposed to change. If you do it right, since one is tucked in, and the other is not, you could just put the BDU top over it. With a little creative ironing of the creases near the lapel area nothing will show but the t-shirt under all of it.
...and it goes back to, they wonder why they have a participation problem now?
Hoops and Hurdles.
So, when we do an activity with a bunch of cadets, are we in violation if we don't have a pile of those things? We do have a fair amount of reflective belts for PT.. but they are fluorescent yellow...
Ya know, that NVWG unit in California may just be onto something .. ;-)
Well, I look at it this way. If someone from another Wing, say Oregon, participates in a mission and someone from CalEMA notices them, (not likely, they usually are in their bunker in Elk Grove), as soon as somebody tells them that the folks from Oregon are from Oregon and are helping the CAWG folks, it will be a non-issue.
Unless somebody with an "agenda" decides to "make" it an issue.
Because I don't see this supplement being enforced any more then the last one was enforced.
And we all know how well CAP Uniform Regs are enforced...
Quote from: PHall on April 23, 2010, 04:19:35 AM
And we all know how well CAP Uniform Regs are enforced...
Exactly.
It just becomes a hoops and hurdles exercise. I mean, after all, when you're told "no", and the you look over there.. but .. , "well, they're .. (insert stupid logic reason here) and you're not" ;-)
Does CA still require an OES card for volunteer disaster workers? If so, they may actually say no to out of state CAP'ers, making their uniform irrelevant.
They do....but you can regester on line. So any out of staters should also be given instruction to regester before deploying.
I didn't want to drag myself into the discussion but oh well...
So, what happens when another state goes to high visibility yellow shirts? And another to bright blue? And another to red? And another to pink? My point is that it's very problematic - and quite costly - for national organizations to kowtow to individual state and/or local requests (note: this is NOT a mandate) in such way.
We already have an effective uniform. Wearing a high visibility vest, whether it be orange or yellow, should be more than sufficient and a reasonable compromise (and already exists). Suggesting that an entire uniform change occur crosses the line to absurd. Shame on the NB for allowing such a proposal to move forward.
That's my $.02.
My Departments SAR unit wears tan BDU style pants and long sleeve orange button up shirts with Dept patches and a cloth badge. Looks good. And you can see them from 10 miles away!
Quote from: A.Member on April 23, 2010, 03:04:54 PMWe already have an effective uniform. Wearing a high visibility vest, whether it be orange or yellow, should be more than sufficient and a reasonable compromise (and already exists). Suggesting that an entire uniform change occur crosses the line to absurd. Shame on the NB for allowing such a proposal to move forward.
:clap: :clap: :clap:
Quote from: RiverAux on April 18, 2010, 05:29:55 PM
Quotethe commonly adopted SAR uniform recognized by law enforcement nationwide.
Incidentally, I would like to find some document to back up this statement from the CA Wing supplement.
Note the idiocy here:
QuoteThe CAWG GT uniform is not authorized for:
· Ground Team or UDF Team members while transporting to or from a search base, or at a search base in a out of service status
In order to go out on a GT mission, you actually have to bring two shirts with you. You have to wear the BBDU shirt while driving to the base or while waiting for assignment, then you have to change into the orange shirt to go hike around and then change back into the blue shirt before going home. If they feel the need to wear the orange shirt, just wear it during the entire mission. Just how good looking are these shirts going to be after being wadded up in a pack during the time you're wearing the other one.
Is that a national or CAWG reg? Either way that should get changed to allow us to wear the orange shirt the whole mission and not have to change back and forth. That sounds like a major pain to deal with...
That is the new CA Wing supplement.
Is a picture of the CA GT uniform posted somewhere?
I'll see if there's one of the olde version online. The only difference might be the pants.
[edit]
Nope, pants are blue here, too.
(http://members.cox.net/dragnd/CAWG_GT_01.gif)
BTW, the names have been blacked out.
LOL
http://forums.cadetstuff.org/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=3577&start=0 Same stuff. Five years old.
Are those Sheriff Shoulder patches on a CAP uniform??
Nope. California OES, with a SarTech tab underneath. Those were authorized by the previous supplement.
Why are CAP personnel wearing California OES patches?
No wait, better question...
Why are California OES patches authorized for wear on the CAP uniform?
You can't see her because she isn't wearing the proper uniform, but there is a cadet in AF-style uniform there also. ;)
Quote from: N Harmon on May 17, 2010, 08:39:14 PM
Why are CAP personnel wearing California OES patches?
No wait, better question...
Why are California OES patches authorized for wear on the CAP uniform?
Because the olde supplement said they were?
This pic is from July 2001. I was still wearing camo BDUs w/o rank.
Does the CA National Guard wear orange shirts when they go out? Other than the fire fighters, I doubt it. So what's the difference.
Just like the color blindness thread, I think it's a proposed solution to problem that does not exist. We are not out hunting deer and our teammates don't have guns pointed at us. Has anyone ever had a case where someone was hurt, couldn't complete the mission, mistaken for something else, had the victim hide from them, etc- because they wore the official uniform?
I still think this whole thing is someones pet project that they finally managed to sell to the right people.
What was wrong with the orange vest thing that says "CAP", or one that you just get from the Wally World sporting goods dept. It's very simple, highly reflective, can be removed in seconds when the additional safety factor is not necessary, can be handed to another member to use when one does not need it anymore.
Far, far more versatile. Potentially far less expensive as one set of them can be kept with DF gear and used by whomever deploys with that equipment. With the current "solution" (to a problem that did not exist) being limited to field use only, in specific duty positions, it's certainly not an aid in rapid and flexible deployment/utilization of your assets.
"If we don't wear orange, they won't let us play with them" (If we don't wear what they wear) .. if that is really the case, then I have to say, all this belly aching and bickering over CAP uniforms, well, that takes the cake. If some SAR organization can't accept trained help because of what we wear, our uniform arguments are nothing.
Due to our multi-targeted mission, we have a few uniform variants but each one is acceptable in a mission base environment. As well as some of our other typical activities. We now have one that for all intents can be used from the potty to the vehicle, to the field, and back. Not at the mission base otherwise.
The vest would have been a simpler option. One thats even available through the same channels we can get the rest of our stuff.
Quote from: a2capt on May 31, 2010, 03:24:57 PM
...
With the current "solution" (to a problem that did not exist) being limited to field use only, in specific duty positions, it's certainly not an aid in rapid and flexible deployment/utilization of your assets.
...
Precisely. I've had
SEVERAL missions over the years that started during other activities. This would be like "Alright! Everyone go home and change!" instead of just being able to up and go.
Quote from: DNall on May 31, 2010, 02:55:33 PM
Does the CA National Guard wear orange shirts when they go out? Other than the fire fighters, I doubt it. So what's the difference.
Actually, yes they and their AD counterparts do, when they are in the field firefighting. The support folks wear their ACU/BDU shirts.
Thanks for asking.
Quote from: Ned on May 31, 2010, 07:38:45 PMActually, yes they and their AD counterparts do, when they are in the field firefighting. The support folks wear their ACU/BDU shirts.
Actual
orange shirts? I've seen the yellow Nomex ones (worn with green pants), but I don't think I've seen one in orange.
^ You're right. I was issued a yellow nomex shirt, not an orange one.
My bad.
Quote from: DNall on May 31, 2010, 02:55:33 PM
Does the CA National Guard wear orange shirts when they go out? Other than the fire fighters, I doubt it. So what's the difference.
When deployed to the fireline CAARNG personnel wear the wildland firefighting ensemble from hard hat to boots. That includes the high visibility shirt.
Quote from: PA Guy on June 01, 2010, 12:36:01 AM
Quote from: DNall on May 31, 2010, 02:55:33 PM
Does the CA National Guard wear orange shirts when they go out? Other than the fire fighters, I doubt it. So what's the difference.
When deployed to the fireline CAARNG personnel wear the wildland firefighting ensemble from hard hat to boots. That includes the high visibility shirt.
You guys are misunderstanding his sentence -- he is asking if they are forced to wear orange shirts when doing stuff OTHER THAN FIREFIGHTING when on state missions.
Quote from: JC004 on May 31, 2010, 06:05:48 PM
Quote from: a2capt on May 31, 2010, 03:24:57 PM
...
With the current "solution" (to a problem that did not exist) being limited to field use only, in specific duty positions, it's certainly not an aid in rapid and flexible deployment/utilization of your assets.
...
Precisely. I've had SEVERAL missions over the years that started during other activities. This would be like "Alright! Everyone go home and change!" instead of just being able to up and go.
They will do what anyone with commonsense would do. They will commence the mission and the wardrobe will catch up when it can. Really!! They aren't going to delay the mission over something so trivial.
Quote from: RiverAuxYou guys are misunderstanding his sentence -- he is asking if they are forced to wear orange shirts when doing stuff OTHER THAN FIREFIGHTING when on state missions.
The CAARNG doesn't perform
ground SAR missions assigned by CA OES so no. NG aviation assets are often requested
OK, I realize this topic has been inactive for a little while but I wanted to vent and get feedback from my fellow CAP'ers.
My first issue with this new reg is that it was published Apr '10 and members had a whopping 120 days to buy a totally different and complete uniform then they are accustomed to wearing. I imagine you could use your existing belt, boots and t-shirt but the pants and shirt are new to anyone who wears the BDU uniform. It's not just a special shirt but one not available at Vanguard or our normal vendor sites since it's so unusual and very specific to the SAR field. Now that we've found one of these weird shirts, we now need to get everything sewn on again, except for our grade insignia which apparently no longer matters when performing ES mission in CA. So, when NHQ issues yet another ICL regarding the 39-1, they at least have the decency of giving members 1-2 years to phase it in. Even the switch over from "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" tapes to "Civil Air Patrol" tapes was given two whole years. And these are only $3 items. From reading the reg is states that CAL EMA "suggested" so why the heck are we mandating this uniform for ALL ES TRAINING AND MISSIONS? It seems that for those who want to work with CAL EMA, that they can wear something that makes them happy but why should the rest of the entire wing have to change out its uniform? Not to mention the crazy rules about when I can and can't wear it. We basically have to arrive in one uniform and then change into this uniform once in the field. So much for CPPT when I need to change in front of my cadets. Oh but wait, you only need to change out your shirt to the BBDU one which is again another added expense for those of us, probably 90% of the entire wing, who don't own or wear them. And to top all this of, and this is what kills me as a DCC, I'm supposed to tell my cadets they ALL need to go out and buy this new uniform because it's mandatory for cadets who train or participate in ground team activities. Good luck getting that by all the parent. No to mention what a wonderful deterrent this is to recruiting. New recruit walks in, learns all about CAP but then finds out they have to wear something like this just to train in something there's a good chance they'll never get to use. They join because the things we do and how we look. The BDU is a major draw to new recruits. This will be a major reason they don't join or leave the program because they don't want to buy it or be caught dead wearing it.
This is of course my unadulterated personal opinion and does not reflect the opinion of my commanders, etc... but all you have to do it explain this to them and the cadets and you get tons of puzzled faces and lots of "What the..." coming out of their mouths. Since we can do nothing but complain... here it is. There has got to be a way to get this recruitment killer cancelled or used only for CAL EMA missions. That's all I'll say for now and I'm interested in your thoughts. Is there a way to lodge a complaint and get it killed? I know everyone I've talked to about it thinks its ridiculous except those who helped design and implement it. I've now got 28 cadets, that's an increase of 20 cadets in the one year since we started, all of whom are no longer interested in training in the Ground Team specialty or wearing this uniform. Thanks!
You bumped a year old topic here, and denecro'ed a 3-year old one on CS.
What changed today that hasn't been in force since last year that has your thong bunched?
Speaking from practical experience, I think the orange shirt makes a lot of sense. Camo BDUs are just insanely silly for walking around in the middle of the night looking for an ELT. The blue BDUs make you look like a K9 officer (leading to "Is your dog in the car?" questions) . The orange shirt looks much more like what local law enforcement expects for a SAR team.
Personally, I had not gone and done the orange shirt thing myself just out of simple laziness about sewing stuff on. But on an ELT search this past Saturday night in the People's Republic of Santa Cruz, I came to the conclusion that orange makes a lot more sense because it is less threatening to the locals, and obviously less suspicious when you're nosing around a boat yard at 2am looking for a renegade EPIRB.
The orange shirt is something that we were asked to do by the CA emergency management agency so we looked more uniform with THEIR people. I didn't have anything to do with the rule (other than lampoon it at Group meetings because it is absurdly complicated due to some people in high places in other regions that didn't want it to be considered a CAP uniform). I know the smart people who worked hard on this, why they did it (to make CALEMA happy because we need the business), and that the end result was the best thing that could be worked out between the desire of the State of CA and the insanity of CAP uniforms.
I will also point out that EVERY SAR mission in CA is a CALEMA mission: we get a mission number from AFRCC AND one from them, as they are delegating their search authority/responsibility to CAP. Our ICs have to follow their rules.
If you're in CAP for the uniforms, please stay out of ES. We need people who want to help those in need as the first priority and are willing to work together with other agencies (including dressing the way they expect), and if it's more important to you to look cool ... feel free to remain focused entirely on AE and CP.
Quote from: ltdomke on May 10, 2011, 11:52:56 PMI'm supposed to tell my cadets they ALL need to go out and buy this new uniform because it's mandatory for cadets who train or participate in ground team activities. Good luck getting that by all the parent. No to mention what a wonderful deterrent this is to recruiting. I've now got 28 cadets, that's an increase of 20 cadets in the one year since we started, all of whom are no longer interested in training in the Ground Team specialty or wearing this uniform. Thanks!
SENIORS may no longer wear BDU for ground team or UDF operations. CADETS STILL CAN.
What I wear to and from the search base, and "while in an out of service status" is going to be the same thing I am wearing while conducting the search. CAWG 39-1 would have me change into and out of this outfit 4 or 6 times a day and thats not going to happen. I'm not even going to procure one of these uniforms until that stipulation is taken out - or I am assured that just like with the flight suit rule, everybody is going to ignore it.
Quote from: RVT on May 11, 2011, 07:44:36 PM
Quote from: ltdomke on May 10, 2011, 11:52:56 PMI'm supposed to tell my cadets they ALL need to go out and buy this new uniform because it's mandatory for cadets who train or participate in ground team activities. Good luck getting that by all the parent. No to mention what a wonderful deterrent this is to recruiting. I've now got 28 cadets, that's an increase of 20 cadets in the one year since we started, all of whom are no longer interested in training in the Ground Team specialty or wearing this uniform. Thanks!
SENIORS may no longer wear BDU for ground team or UDF operations. CADETS STILL CAN.
What I wear to and from the search base, and "while in an out of service status" is going to be the same thing I am wearing while conducting the search. CAWG 39-1 would have me change into and out of this outfit 4 or 6 times a day and thats not going to happen. I'm not even going to procure one of these uniforms until that stipulation is taken out - or I am assured that just like with the flight suit rule, everybody is going to ignore it.
The supplement says that cadets can wear BDU's on UDF it does not say that cadets can wear BDU's forr other ground team functions
Quote from: dbaran on May 11, 2011, 03:05:55 AM
If you're in CAP for the uniforms, please stay out of ES. We need people who want to help those in need as the first priority and are willing to work together with other agencies (including dressing the way they expect), and if it's more important to you to look cool ... feel free to remain focused entirely on AE and CP.
Nice attitude... So, don't particpate in one of CAP's three missions huh? Yeah, I don't seem to find that in the 52-16 where I'm to now stop working with ES in my cadet program because they can't afford a uniform. I also don't recall anything about saying I wanted to look "cool". I did say cadets join because they like the BDU's.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 11, 2011, 02:33:00 AM
You bumped a year old topic here, and denecro'ed a 3-year old one on CS.
What changed today that hasn't been in force since last year that has your thong bunched?
Sorry Eclipse... I was trying not to get into specifics but I was in the hospital last year from Jan-Aug fighting cancer. After coming back and reading this new reg that gave next to no time to adapt, I got a little annoyed. Through my own misunderstanding of how it read, I thought the cadets had the option for GT work but I was reading the UDF portion. I'm still having a bugger of a time finding the darn shirt that can't be florescent. What I find are shirts that are orange but country western looking, have brown buttons which don't seem to match what is shown in the photos, or just plain out of stock. I've got everything else ready to go and just need an XL shirt that fits the regs then sew all my stuff on. I'm just annoyed that it was mandated wing wide with very little time to adapt. At least let us wear the BDU's w/vest for training. I can understand Cal EMA wanting them for actual missions, even-though the letter from Wing says they "suggested" it. But at least let us do our training and get cadets excited about the ES side of CAP. I personally know several cadets up here in NorCal who are seriously into ES and have adopted the new uniform. I'm glad for them and that they found something within CAP that keeps them going. I'm just saying the rest of the cadets should be allowed to at least train and then buy the uniform if they decide to get their GTM qualifications and participate in actual missions. Does that make sense?
Respectfully,
Quote from: dbaran on May 11, 2011, 03:05:55 AM
Speaking from practical experience, I think the orange shirt makes a lot of sense. Camo BDUs are just insanely silly for walking around in the middle of the night looking for an ELT. The blue BDUs make you look like a K9 officer (leading to "Is your dog in the car?" questions) . The orange shirt looks much more like what local law enforcement expects for a SAR team.
Have you seen a ground team in BDU's with the newly mandated vest yet? Pretty reflective and not hard to see us at all. They are the same at night and since they are actually reflective, are more visible than just an orange shirt.
Not exactly "newly mandated" - a vest has been required forever and most people with a clue wore won that was retro-reflective.
I agree, though, that the whole issue in CAWG is a colossal waste of time, but even at that, this is not a gateway to training - you can "learn" to do things
in blues.
Quote from: ltdomke on May 11, 2011, 09:24:34 PM
Quote from: dbaran on May 11, 2011, 03:05:55 AM
Speaking from practical experience, I think the orange shirt makes a lot of sense. Camo BDUs are just insanely silly for walking around in the middle of the night looking for an ELT. The blue BDUs make you look like a K9 officer (leading to "Is your dog in the car?" questions) . The orange shirt looks much more like what local law enforcement expects for a SAR team.
Have you seen a ground team in BDU's with the newly mandated vest yet? Pretty reflective and not hard to see us at all. They are the same at night and since they are actually reflective, are more visible than just an orange shirt.
Don't worry, starting in October 2012 all GT operations will require an ANSI II-compliant vest, so you'll get to wear one of those over your orange shirt ::).
That's what I was talking about Eclipse. There is a new vest we are mandated to wear by next Oct. We always wore the orange vest. The new one is much better with reflective stripes and yellow so we can be seen on the flightline too. See the pic I posted as reference.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 11, 2011, 09:36:02 PM
Quote from: ltdomke on May 11, 2011, 09:24:34 PM
Quote from: dbaran on May 11, 2011, 03:05:55 AM
Speaking from practical experience, I think the orange shirt makes a lot of sense. Camo BDUs are just insanely silly for walking around in the middle of the night looking for an ELT. The blue BDUs make you look like a K9 officer (leading to "Is your dog in the car?" questions) . The orange shirt looks much more like what local law enforcement expects for a SAR team.
Have you seen a ground team in BDU's with the newly mandated vest yet? Pretty reflective and not hard to see us at all. They are the same at night and since they are actually reflective, are more visible than just an orange shirt.
Don't worry, starting in October 2012 all GT operations will require an ANSI II-compliant vest, so you'll get to wear one of those over your orange shirt ::).
I know ::)
Quote from: ltdomke on May 11, 2011, 09:18:00 PMI'm still having a bugger of a time finding the darn shirt that can't be florescent. What I find are shirts that are orange but country western looking, have brown buttons which don't seem to match what is shown in the photos, or just plain out of stock.
http://sq45.cawg.cap.gov/Uniform/CAWG_GTuniform.html
Quote from: RVT on May 11, 2011, 11:07:33 PM
Quote from: ltdomke on May 11, 2011, 09:18:00 PMI'm still having a bugger of a time finding the darn shirt that can't be florescent. What I find are shirts that are orange but country western looking, have brown buttons which don't seem to match what is shown in the photos, or just plain out of stock.
http://sq45.cawg.cap.gov/Uniform/CAWG_GTuniform.html
Yes, I'm well aware of that website and the links there to the shirts...
FYI:
Site #1 - Remington has backordered our large shirts until April 2011
Site #2 - Out of stock
You can't order what the site says is backordered or out of stock.
Quote from: ltdomke on May 11, 2011, 11:11:57 PM
Site #1 - Remington has backordered our large shirts until April 2011
It's probably a good thing that we're already in May 2011 then.
I know. You'd think they'd change the website to reflect a new date. There's no way to order it, my size has no "Order Now" button. Just the note about being backordered. It's been saying that for months. Same as the other one.
Quote from: ltdomke on May 11, 2011, 11:11:57 PMSite #1 - Remington has backordered our large shirts until April 2011
I assume you meant to say "June 2011" or some later date.
I actually have four sets of BDU plus the field jacket & liner as the US Army was still using it when I retired. I converted it all over to CAP only to discover California didn't want me to wear it anymore. So I did not return to doing ground team operations which is largely what I was involved in from 1983-1990.
What I find amusing is that as soon as it gets cold you put a jacket on over this and the orange is all gone. I'm hoping the 2012 vest requirement allows BDU to be used again. It really doesn't matter what you are wearing UNDER one of those.
I was just doing a copy/paste of exactly what those websites said about ordering the shirt I need. This is why a preferred vendor should be chosen or use Vanguard. If you're going to mandate a uniform and give members four months to implement them, you need to provide a reliable source for them. If not just for the issue of readiness when you need it but also consistency with color. Just saying Orange and not florescent leaves a lot to interpretation.
Quote from: ltdomke on May 11, 2011, 09:41:15 PM
That's what I was talking about Eclipse. There is a new vest we are mandated to wear by next Oct. We always wore the orange vest. The new one is much better with reflective stripes and yellow so we can be seen on the flightline too. See the pic I posted as reference.
You're required, or
we're required?
There is no specific vest mandated, just ANSI-II, which is not really a big deal.
Quote from: RVT on May 11, 2011, 11:44:34 PMWhat I find amusing is that as soon as it gets cold you put a jacket on over this and the orange is all gone. I'm hoping the 2012 vest requirement allows BDU to be used again. It really doesn't matter what you are wearing UNDER one of those.
Once the ANSI requirement kicks in, so does the requirement that outerwear (i.e. the outer
most thing) be ANSI as well. No more hiding your vest under your TAC gear, etc.
I guess I missed that. Glad we are all going to it. Very nice and professional looking if we all buy the CAP ones.
Well, I'm not buying the orange shirt, or BBDU pants to go with it, just for a specific purpose. The green bag is the only "specific purpose" uniform I'm going to deal with, because even that specific purpose still encompasses a lot of scopes.
But for something that I have to wear while in the vehicle while prosecuting the mission, and not while "in the base"? I mean that supplement is absurd the way it's written, and it's still pushing someones pet uniform project. I have the recently distributed ANSI orange vest that CAWG subsidized for member purchase, and I have the one that the book store sold prior, from back then too. When I respond to a mission I'll let the IC know that. If they want me to participate, great! Otherwise ..
The only CAP uniform combinations that I have are all USAF styles. Thats all I really intend on dealing with, too. Especially after the CSU fiasco, I don't trust them to pull the plug on something after introducing it. So why spend money on it.
Even the CalTrans Ground Team uniform has been on/off again before. Changes with the wind and direction of the currently sitting Wing CC.
:clap:
Quote from: ltdomke on May 11, 2011, 09:18:00 PM
...I'm still having a bugger of a time finding the darn shirt that can't be florescent. What I find are shirts that are orange but country western looking, have brown buttons which don't seem to match what is shown in the photos, or just plain out of stock. I've got everything else ready to go and just need an XL shirt that fits the regs then sew all my stuff on. ...
Not agreeing or disagreeing with you. Will something like this work?
http://www.copquest.com/82-4150.htm
Great find... thank you!!! I went with the L/S Cotton/Poly and it was just over $20 shipping and tax included with a discount code I found online. Perhaps, since this company is located in CA, a partnership could be formed so we could make them a preferred vendor or something. I can't wait to get my shirt not that it will help me for this weekends eval but I'll let you all know how good it is when I get it. They even had my size, Large/Long.
I might buy a couple of those for motorcycle teaching...
So wait, there's no "official supplier" for this uniform? CAWG prescribes a non-standard shirt and then doesn't provide
a means to buy it? What did I miss?
You can get the pants at Vanguard but they are nothing more than navy blue BDU's that you can get anywhere. The shirt is on your own and a hat is mentioned but no details given. It looks in the photo examples that its just a navy blue baseball cap. But no idea if I can just wear my squadron baseball cap or whatnot.
OK, seriously, no wonder you're bunched if a uniform is specified and no vendor of choice or even hard definition is given.
A vendor and catalog number should have been provided before the supplement was approved. That way people could whine
about the choice or find their own, but people wouldn't be shooting in the dark.
It's not bad enough they have to be different, but this leaves the members vulnerable to spending money and sewing and then being
told "wrong one, go home".
That is pretty typical for CAWG.
It is my experience locally (San Diego, Ca), that if you walk into any store that sells safety equipment, and ask for 'CalTrans shirts', you will get something very close to what's offered at the above link. This ain't rocket surgery. The new folks should be able to ask the old-timers where they got their olde shirts, and go from there.
Quote from: SarDragon on May 13, 2011, 12:56:21 AM
It is my experience locally (San Diego, Ca), that if you walk into any store that sells safety equipment, and ask for 'CalTrans shirts', you will get something very close to what's offered at the above link. This ain't rocket surgery. The new folks should be able to ask the old-timers where they got their olde shirts, and go from there.
If all else fails, call your local CalTrans office and ask them where they get their shirts.
It's not that hard folks....
Quote from: SarDragon on May 13, 2011, 12:56:21 AMThis ain't rocket surgery.
What IS "Rocket Surgery"??
Quote from: Marshalus on April 17, 2010, 01:02:21 AM
Just change the whole uniform to a bright orange jumpsuit and be done with it. I'm sure we can get them surplus from the department of corrections.
I can remember the International Orange flight suits when I was a cadet. Back then we thought they were cool.
Quote from: Grumpy on May 13, 2011, 07:30:22 AM
Quote from: Marshalus on April 17, 2010, 01:02:21 AM
Just change the whole uniform to a bright orange jumpsuit and be done with it. I'm sure we can get them surplus from the department of corrections.
I can remember the International Orange flights when I was a cadet. Back then we thought they were cool.
I still do, but then, that's me. I've always had a thing for orange.
Quote from: PHall on May 13, 2011, 01:29:49 AM
If all else fails, call your local CalTrans Wing Commander and ask them where they get their shirts.
>:D
+ an infinite number.