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Cadet Transfer

Started by Nikos, June 05, 2022, 08:57:35 PM

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Nikos


   I have a Cadet Master Sergeant who wants to transfer to another Squadron.  The Squadron Commander says he has to make 3 visits to the new Squadron before the transfer is approved.  I can't find the correct regulation regarding Cadet transfers to find out if this is correct.  I am new to the active CAP world, if someone could point me to the regulation it would be very helpful.  Thanks.


Eclipse

#1
There is no such requirement for cadets or adults and membership committee is only
for new members. This falls into a CC's prerogative, though.

Technically any member can transfer to any unit they want, simply by asking (barring pending
disciplinary actions).

CAPR 39-2, Page 5-6.
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R039_002_A74FDA9552C2D.pdf

"Transfer of Membership. Members may transfer from one unit to another as long as they
are members in good standing in their current unit of assignment. Members may not transfer to
preclude an adverse action or when placed in suspended status. Individuals who misrepresent
their status in order to transfer may be subject to membership termination action as outlined
in CAPR 35-3, Membership Termination.

1.11.1. A member who moves from one locality to another may transfer to another unit in
the new community. A member may also transfer from one unit to another in the same locality
upon approval of the unit commanders concerned. If approved by one, but disapproved by the
other, the request will be forwarded to the commander at the next higher echelon for decision.
If disapproved by both unit commanders, the transfer will be denied.

1.11.4.1. When a member transfers to another unit, the gaining unit will normally initiate
the transfer through the online transfer application. Once the gaining commander has approved
the transfer action the member's record will immediately be updated to reflect the new unit of
assignment. A notification of the transfer action will then appear in the losing unit commander's
online Commanders Corner. If there is any reason why the transfer is not acceptable to the losing
unit, the commander may simply deny the transfer. Losing commanders must deny the transfer
action within two months of the notification. Commanders not wishing to use the online
application may submit a CAPF 2A, Request for and Approval of Personnel Actions (Section IV,
Transfer). The personnel officer initiates the personnel action which is approved by the unit
commander and forwards the form to CAP/DP. If there is any reason why the transfer is not
acceptable to the losing unit, the losing unit commander must notify CAP/DP within two months.
The transfer will then be declared void and the member returned to the losing unit until the
problem can be resolved."


With the above said, it's incumbent on the new commander to find out why a member wants to
transfer, and since the receiving CC has to approve, if 3 meetings is his process, there's nothing
that says he can't require that.

If the cadet doesn't like that, he can file a complaint, but he'd have to assert that he was discriminated
against the transfer based on something protected, and most higher HQ are going to agree that
3 meetings is a commander's prerogative.

As long as we're here - once the transfer is approved, the member hand-carries his personnel file to the new unit, and the old unit DOES NOT retain copies.

"1.11.4.2. When a member transfers, the transferring member will be responsible for
ensuring his or her records are delivered to the gaining unit."

"That Others May Zoom"

Nikos

Thank you Sir, this helps.  It is a long story but as a newer member this helps. 

Nikos

Sir, it is the loosing Squadron Commander that is requiring 3 visits to the gaining Squadron.  Sorry I was not clear.  If I need anymore info can I send you a PM.

Eclipse

The current unit CC cannot require visiting 3 times to another unit, nor bar transfer
unless the cadet is under disciplinary action.

That is outside his authority.

Frankly the cadet doesn't even need to tell his current CC, let alone ask permission.

"That Others May Zoom"

Nikos

Thank you Sir, the next meeting should be interesting.

Nikos

I think the problem started when the Cadet who wanted a transfer went directly to the gaining Squadron Commander with a transfer request which was approved by the Gaining Squadron Commander.  The loosing Squadron Commander said that because the Cadet did not come to him first he would deny the transfer.  Additionally, the loosing Squadron Commander told the Cadet if he wanted to transfer to the new Squadron, the Cadet would have to make 3 visits to the gaining Squadron before the loosing Squadron Commander would reconsider the transfer.

As a new member this frustrates me as the Cadet is exemplary and should move to another Squadron with more opportunities.  Thank you for your help Sir.

Eclipse

Quote from: Nikos on June 06, 2022, 12:21:19 AMThe loosing Squadron Commander said that because the Cadet did not come to him first he would deny the transfer.  Additionally, the loosing Squadron Commander told the Cadet if he wanted to transfer to the new Squadron, the Cadet would have to make 3 visits to the gaining Squadron before the loosing Squadron Commander would reconsider the transfer.

The former is what he should have done, the latter well exceed the current CC's authority.

The next higher HQ will tell him to knock it off (especially when dealing with a cadet),
and the final result will be unnecessary bad feelings in general.

Sadly this is all too common in regards to the way CC's act sometimes.

There's generally only two reasons people transfer:

1 - a life change that mandates the change (moving, etc.)

2 - not enjoying their CAP time.

#2 is normally beyond saving once a transfer is put through, and in most cases
it's best just to let everyone move on.

"That Others May Zoom"

Nikos

If Wing doesn't step in, I will ask Wing to look at this.  While I am a junior Senior Member, I can see the Squadron about to loose an outstanding Cadet.  My guess is there is a personality conflict here, possibly much more I am unaware of. There is no disciplinary problems that I have been told about.  I tried to keep out of this, but I am now having second thoughts about remaining in CAP.  I have enjoyed everything in CAP up to this point.

Eclipse

These kinds of shenanigan's are a sad part of the natural ebb and flow of CAP.

Some goober CC who thinks his job is making people sad causes more people to
leave, but then hopefully some just takes notes quietly until he gets voted off the island
and they can puts things back to where they need to be.

As I look towards my own CAP career twilight, this is about the only thing that would still
keep my interest - being a unit trouble shooter to fix problems like this, however sadly the
Command Mentor program makes the HS program look viable.

"That Others May Zoom"

Nikos

Now the Deputy Wing Commander says he will let the 3 visit policy imposed by the loosing Squadron Commander stand.  Is that in the Wing's authority to do that?  I have no idea what the Gaining Squadron Commander said if anything.


Pace

#11
Wing has authority over all the squadron commanders, so unless the gaining squadron commander protests citing regulations (they likely will not), then it's done.

The cadet can certainly file an IG complaint against the losing commander and wing, but for this I would discourage that avenue.
Lt Col, CAP

Nikos

I have been contacted by another member with some "concerns " about things in the Squadron.  As a new guy I wondered why we lost 7 cadets in the past year and 3 Senior Members.  Why people tell me these things I have no idea.  My membership comes due in a few weeks, I have decided to move on.  I got into this for community service not all the BS.

Eclipse

Unfortunate but not atypical, and in most cases, IGs will say that Command failing (or prerogative depending
on your point of view) is not grounds for a complaint.

It's likely higher HQ is aware of the issues and it's possible has no one willing to step up.

FWIW, losing 10 members in the last year, considering the state CAP is still in generally due to
Covid, isn't al that unusual, which may be why the situation isn't getting the attention it would normally deserve.

"That Others May Zoom"

MSG Mac

All that's needed is for the gaining unit to initiate the transfer in E-Services. The transfer is effective immediately. The losing Commander may deny the transfer, but unless the member owes money or equipment, there's no basis to deny it.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

ZigZag911

I have never underetold why a unit CC would insist on keeping someone who doesn't want to be there.

It makes no sense.

Disgruntled members are bad for squadron morale.

Sounds like an ego trip by a control freak.

flyboy53

Quote from: ZigZag911 on June 10, 2022, 08:13:50 PMI have never understood why a unit CC would insist on keeping someone who doesn't want to be there.

It makes no sense.

Disgruntled members are bad for squadron morale.

Sounds like an ego trip by a control freak.

Without knowing the cadet or the unit commanders in question, statistics of this nature and the very issue of forbidding a transfer until a three-meeting requirement is satisfied, smacks of some serious issues within the unit or the command structure.

What is the losing commander trying to do? Set up the cadet for something that would bar the transfer? If the regulations don't back up the actions, maybe it's time for IG involvement. What happens if the cadet simply stops coming to the unit meetings and eventually drops out of the program. A BIG FAILURE in more ways than one, and what has anyone gained?

Sadly, this isn't the first time I've been made aware of such issues...and the outcome is always counterproductive to the organization.

Nikos

I think there are command issues with Wing as well as the squadron.  I don't like to see people denied requests when the procedure was followed initially.

Toad1168

Quote from: Nikos on June 15, 2022, 05:20:37 PMI think there are command issues with Wing as well as the squadron.  I don't like to see people denied requests when the procedure was followed initially.

Unfortunate, these problems are created by members (and command) that don't actually READ, let alone understand the regs.  They either assume they are right, rely on old information (the way its always been done), or don't understand what it actually says.

Its not hard people, Control F will help you find the answers.  The cadets have figured it out, you would think SMs, whose job it is to administer the program, would at least take the time to look stuff up.
Toad

Nikos

I spoke in private with the Deputy Wing Commander.  The Deputy Wing Commander assured me that the loosing Squadron Commander did not exceed his authority by requiring 3 visits before approving a transfer to another Squadron.  Although I can't seem to find that in the Regulations.  The Deputy Wing Commander approved the transfer with the conditions.  I talked to the Gaining Squadron Commander, who is level 5, and he said he never heard of such a thing. 
Bottom line, this is now a closed issue.  Thank you for all the advice.