When was the point where CAP rank ceased actually being rank?

Started by N6RVT, December 30, 2021, 12:03:37 AM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

N6RVT

For the top three grades in CAP, full colonel and up, grade actually seems to indicate level of authority.

Below that it does not, an incident commander may be a 1st LT, and a person may make LTC without ever having held a command or even a primary staff job.

At one time the military rank had to have real significance, but it was before 1974 as I do not remember it.  I've been around for more than half the lifetime of this organization so that shift had to be early on, possibly as far back as 1947.  I'm guessing nobody here actually remembers when it happened, but someone probably knows.

Shuman 14

I would say a semi-educated guess would be about the time they stopped letting aircrews carry sidearms and took the depth charges off the coastal patrol planes.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Holding Pattern

In a historical cache I acquired I found a note of a person being removed from a rank after a completion of a duty position in the 60s. Beyond that I can't find any formal documentation of process.

Holding Pattern

Quote from: Dwight Dutton on December 30, 2021, 12:03:37 AMBelow that it does not, an incident commander may be a 1st LT, and a person may make LTC without ever having held a command or even a primary staff job.

It's important to note that in NIMS/ICS be it firefighters, police, or military, the intent is that the person qualified to the IC job is rank agnostic as well.

Eclipse

Quote from: Dwight Dutton on December 30, 2021, 12:03:37 AMFor the top three grades in CAP, full colonel and up, grade actually seems to indicate level of authority.

Not really - the birds and stars may be commensurate with a given appointment, but they don't have the
weight of any authority beyond the appointment, or after the appointment is over.

A Colonel or General are going to have some level of continued authority based only on the inherent authority
of their commission, though even that has its limits, but in CAP, a former Wing CC or even National CC
could (and often do) cycle down to a lower echelon and be back under the command of someone of a lower
grade with less experience (and that doesn't even account for OPS, where that's commonplace).

Back to the real OP - I've seen documents that portended to have and require a specific staff billet for
a given grade, with similar limitations to how many of a given grade can exist.  I believe this was in the late 50's / early 60's era. 

As far as I know it's been the current free-range situation of today since at least the 90's.

"That Others May Zoom"

etodd

A military wannabe's dream situation. Where one can become a Captain or Major, etc.,  with all the certs, ribbons, and other uniform accutrements. Yet, in reality, have no authority to match. Heck, they made me a Captain just because someone realized I was a CFII.  I have zero idea of what being a Captain means.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

ColonelJack

When I joined in 1981, and completed my Level I, the 2a for my promotion to second lieutenant had a line in the box:  Number authorized ___, Number appointed ___.

So there was some limit to the number of officers at each level that a unit could have at least until then.

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

SarDragon

Quote from: ColonelJack on December 30, 2021, 11:02:41 AMWhen I joined in 1981, and completed my Level I, the 2a for my promotion to second lieutenant had a line in the box:  Number authorized ___, Number appointed ___.

So there was some limit to the number of officers at each level that a unit could have at least until then.

Jack

Somebody was using a very outdated form. I don't recall quotas even in 1970, when I first became a CAP officer. Besides, promotions are on a From 2, not a 2a.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

N6RVT

Quote from: etodd on December 30, 2021, 02:50:07 AMA military wannabe's dream situation. Where one can become a Captain or Major, etc.,  with all the certs, ribbons, and other uniform accutrements. Yet, in reality, have no authority to match. Heck, they made me a Captain just because someone realized I was a CFII.  I have zero idea of what being a Captain means.

I originally had this long post about how the uniforms, meaningless rank and all the bling were just there to make someone feel important, keep paying dues, admission prices to training events and get bombarded with requests from national to donate even more while working hundreds or even thousands of hours of unpaid labor in order to justify the continued existence of a government funded flying club.

But it just sounded like sour grapes after failing my class 3, so I didn't.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: etodd on December 30, 2021, 02:50:07 AMA military wannabe's dream situation. Where one can become a Captain or Major, etc.,  with all the certs, ribbons, and other uniform accutrements. Yet, in reality, have no authority to match. Heck, they made me a Captain just because someone realized I was a CFII.  I have zero idea of what being a Captain means.

That's a comparison easily made to someone being a medical professional and receiving an entry military commission as an O-3. They still have to go through an initial training program, but it's not boot camp nor officer candidacy training.

In CAP, we do the same where you still need to complete your entry level training (L1, and L2P1) for the advanced rate promotion.

However, in CAP, you could switch positions very rapidly, and suddenly that college professor or licensed medical doctor Captain is now a squadron or group commander; prior experience not required. CAP duty positions and officer grades have no relationship other than certain duty positions permitting an advanced promotion (e.g., Group Commander to Major).

So I would say that 100% of the time, there really isn't any "rank" based on grade in CAP. It's entirely based on who is appointed to be in charge of X Activity in that moment. If I'm a 1st Lt, and I'm the Deputy Commander of the squadron, and my Commander (Capt) goes down, I'm next in line to take charge. It doesn't matter what any of the grades are on the org chart below. I've had my moments of reminding people three grades higher than me where they sit in the chain. Today, I have six officers senior-in-grade to me under my supervision. That, in no way, gives them a higher rank.

radioguy

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 30, 2021, 02:47:52 PMIt doesn't matter what any of the grades are on the org chart below. I've had my moments of reminding people three grades higher than me where they sit in the chain. Today, I have six officers senior-in-grade to me under my supervision. That, in no way, gives them a higher rank.


Heh Heh... Reminds me of my time in the Army, when I frequently had to remind those with a higher rank that "This is my PAY GRADE (pointing to my sergeant stripes)...This is my RANK (pointing to my Military Police brassard).

Fun times.

Shuman 14

Quote from: radioguy on December 30, 2021, 04:17:12 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 30, 2021, 02:47:52 PMIt doesn't matter what any of the grades are on the org chart below. I've had my moments of reminding people three grades higher than me where they sit in the chain. Today, I have six officers senior-in-grade to me under my supervision. That, in no way, gives them a higher rank.


Heh Heh... Reminds me of my time in the Army, when I frequently had to remind those with a higher rank that "This is my PAY GRADE (pointing to my sergeant stripes)...This is my RANK (pointing to my Military Police brassard).

Fun times.

Or as I liked to say, "Sir, please don't confuse your rank with my authority" as I pointed to my Brassard.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

jayleswo

Quote from: SarDragon on December 30, 2021, 12:22:13 PM
Quote from: ColonelJack on December 30, 2021, 11:02:41 AMWhen I joined in 1981, and completed my Level I, the 2a for my promotion to second lieutenant had a line in the box:  Number authorized ___, Number appointed ___.

So there was some limit to the number of officers at each level that a unit could have at least until then.

Jack

Somebody was using a very outdated form. I don't recall quotas even in 1970, when I first became a CAP officer. Besides, promotions are on a From 2, not a 2a.

When I joined in 1979, the CAPM 20-1 Organization of Civil Air Patrol (now renumbered) had Officer Grade Allocations which listed the grades for each position in a unit, if I remember correctly, right on the org charts. By that time, I think these were just guidelines but my unit commander did say that in earlier times, if you wanted to be promoted, you needed to be appointed to a vacant position authorized for that grade. Which just prompted a game of musical chairs where people who had already been promoted would move into an Assistant or other role to free up a slot for someone to be promoted, as they did not demote you once you had been promoted to a grade authorized for the position you held. Eventually, in the 1980's they did away with the idea and removed the suggested grades from the positions listed in the org charts. Interestingly, some vestige of this idea exists for the more senior NCO grades.

It seems that your position is actually your rank in the organization and has nothing to do with the grade you wear except, as a previous poster wrote, Wing or National Command (but not exclusively). Your grade could mean many things (prior command, formal completion of levels in the PD program, profession like doctor or teacher, skills such as pilot, etc.).

Anywyay, just thought I would contribute what I rememeber to this discussion for what it's worth.
John Aylesworth, Lt Col CAP

SAR/DR MP, Mission Check Pilot Examiner, Master Observer
Earhart #1139 FEB 1982

Capt Thompson

Slightly off topic, but reminds me of my Army JROTC program in high school back in the 90's. It was the first year of the program, and we had over 300 Cadets in the battalion, all with the same experience, 0. They drilled us for about a month, swapping out who was in charge and giving each Cadet a chance to try and lead, and then one day we walked in and had a chain of command, from a Squad Leader (C/SGT) all the way up to the Battalion Commander (C/LTC). After that, if you wanted to promote, you had to fill a vacant position and you were given the rank of that position, if you moved down you were demoted to the rank of the new position. You could theoretically be in the program for 4 years and never promote if you didn't accept a higher position.

One day a recruiter from CAP came in, and about 30 Cadets went that Tuesday to check out the program. When the C/CPT's and C/MAJ's found out they wouldn't just be handed a grade, and had to work up from the bottom, they never returned.
Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Capt Thompson on December 30, 2021, 08:03:23 PMSlightly off topic, but reminds me of my Army JROTC program in high school back in the 90's. It was the first year of the program, and we had over 300 Cadets in the battalion, all with the same experience, 0. They drilled us for about a month, swapping out who was in charge and giving each Cadet a chance to try and lead, and then one day we walked in and had a chain of command, from a Squad Leader (C/SGT) all the way up to the Battalion Commander (C/LTC). After that, if you wanted to promote, you had to fill a vacant position and you were given the rank of that position, if you moved down you were demoted to the rank of the new position. You could theoretically be in the program for 4 years and never promote if you didn't accept a higher position.

One day a recruiter from CAP came in, and about 30 Cadets went that Tuesday to check out the program. When the C/CPT's and C/MAJ's found out they wouldn't just be handed a grade, and had to work up from the bottom, they never returned.

One of the benefits of ROTC-style programs is that you can have a variety of leadership opportunities that aren't necessarily "earned" but warranted based on the need of the unit or the availability of skill/potential within the cadet corps.

I made the mistake of raising my hand when a senior cadet (MSIV) walked into the classroom and asked, "Who here is good with Excel? Want to help me out?" A week later, I was the S3/NCO and was told I needed to go to the Supply Clerk and get a new insignia patch for C/SGT since my C/PFC insignia was no longer appropriate.

In other instances, if you became a Squad Leader, you were handed C/SGT. If you became a Platoon Leader, C/2LT. If you became Command Sergeant Major, your C/CSM. That's how it worked. You rotated around to teach you the role and understand all of the moving parts. Over 4 years, you would bounce around quite a bit. You'd go from C/PV2 to C/CPL to C/2LT to C/MAJ to C/CSM to C/CPT. That's just how it is.

Now, while I fully grasp the merit-based advancement of CAP, there are pros and cons to both methods. Sure, in one instance, maybe that person really isn't ready to jump from E-5 to O-1 like that. Maybe that haven't really displayed the maturity and the readiness to make that move, and their Cadre had limited options. Likewise, there are a number of cadets who are capable of advancing very rapidly in CAP, and maybe that 2-year timeline is very extreme for them and too slow for a squadron's needs. Then again, I see a lot of C/Capts who maybe earned the grade in testing but have absolutely no capability to come remotely close to what I would expect of a 16-year-old cadet officer, and in some cases not even that of a 16-year-old C/SSgt.

Bottom line: CAP members might have completed the testing, but that doesn't mean they're going to meet the true expectations of the insignia they wear; often only those of the person clicking the button in eServices. Similarly, just because a person holds a position doesn't mean they're actually suited for that role, and their grade is rarely an indication of readiness or prior experience.


ColonelJack

Quote from: SarDragon on December 30, 2021, 12:22:13 PMSomebody was using a very outdated form. I don't recall quotas even in 1970, when I first became a CAP officer. Besides, promotions are on a From 2, not a 2a.

I stand corrected.  Jeez, it was 40 years ago.  I'm lucky if I remember what I had for breakfast today.

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

NIN



Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 30, 2021, 02:47:52 PMSo I would say that 100% of the time, there really isn't any "rank" based on grade in CAP. It's entirely based on who is appointed to be in charge of X Activity in that moment. If I'm a 1st Lt, and I'm the Deputy Commander of the squadron, and my Commander (Capt) goes down, I'm next in line to take charge. It doesn't matter what any of the grades are on the org chart below. I've had my moments of reminding people three grades higher than me where they sit in the chain. Today, I have six officers senior-in-grade to me under my supervision. That, in no way, gives them a higher rank.

Pretty much this times 100.

Rank in CAP substantially represents professional development and potential* to assume roles of greater responsibility.

(* I say "potential" because not everybody who makes it to,  say,  Maj or Lt Col,  has the actual wherewithal or capability to assume greater responsibilities. Many do,  many do not. Your grade insignia is only part of the equation, usually.)

When I returned to CAP in 2013 from "retirement," I worked at a squadron as the leadership officer,  backstopping a much newer but very capable Deputy for Cadets. Confused people would defer to me because I had an oak leaf vs the deputy's railroad tracks. I'd point to him and say "that's my boss.  Talk to him" on whatever point they were looking for that didn't pertain to my job.   My scope was military leadership development and training for the cadets.  20-1 (at the time) diagrammed my left and right range limits in that duty position,  and you can bet I stayed inside those.

 Now,  did I provide wise counsel to the CDC and CC? Yes. But it was 100% clear who was in charge. They would sometimes ask for my opinion,  and I'd give it,  but if the eventual marching orders weren't what I suggested,  I'd still salute & execute.

I think a some people in CAP tend to get a little wrapped around the axle about what their grade actually confers. They need to be disabused of the notion that their grade means much outside of their unit and duty assignment.



Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversationsâ„¢
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

RiverAux

Most of you all sort of forgot about the cadet program where grade does tie in very closely with responsibility.  Thats not nothing.

Eclipse

Quote from: RiverAux on December 31, 2021, 06:28:46 PMThats not nothing.

It's not much, though, since it's really just paper suggestions that are largely
ignored (or of which Unit leaders are unaware).

On top of which, cadet "authority" is, for the most part, just a fiction anyway
of the leadership training aspect of the CP.

"That Others May Zoom"

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: RiverAux on December 31, 2021, 06:28:46 PMMost of you all sort of forgot about the cadet program where grade does tie in very closely with responsibility.  Thats not nothing.

That's only a recent provision in R60-1, though.

You can still have a cadet commander who is a brand-new C/2d Lt with other higher-grade cadet officers in the unit. You can have a first sergeant who is a C/MSgt and higher-grade cadet NCOs elsewhere. You can have a unit where there is a first sergeant, no cadet commander, and a cadet officer as a flight commander (who technically isn't really a higher rank than the first sergeant based on the org chart).

The key is for the unit to make their cadet program work and make sense. But back in the senior corps, where the actual accountability exists from a compliance/legality standpoint, no, grade does not equal rank whatsoever.

Spam

Quote from: Eclipse on December 31, 2021, 06:39:07 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on December 31, 2021, 06:28:46 PMThats not nothing.

It's not much, though, since it's really just paper suggestions that are largely
ignored (or of which Unit leaders are unaware).

On top of which, cadet "authority" is, for the most part, just a fiction anyway
of the leadership training aspect of the CP.

Hi Eclipse,

small issue here, that I respectfully disagree only in that cadets do have delegated authority, wherein the responsibility still resides with the Unit Commander. Doctrinally, this is compared by example to our elected government: we vote for a representative who has delegated authority, but we as the electorate still have the responsibility for having put these people into office (to our shame, often times, right). Same with the analogy of a babysitter, where the babysitter has authority delegated by the responsible parent.

This is a significant learning objective within the CP that I feel we often overlook (with adults also).

R/s
Spam

Ref:
1. CAPP 52-15 Cadet Staff Handbook, on delegation of authority, and taking responsibility.
2. CAP Unit Commanders Course module on Delegation:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Delegating_Authority_20181203_1_3130DBB541042.pdf

Jester

This is a self-induced issue.  If you want to treat your rank structure like a Pokemon game where you just gotta catch 'em all, that's on you.

I look at it as if you're going to do what it takes to move up, you desire to function at that level.  I'm going to treat you like a Lt Col and expect you to function on that level.  If you want to be a Lt Col and never leave the squadron or take command, you should have topped out at 1st Lt. 

I've seen NCOs be denied a promotion because the group HQ already had its complement of SMSgts (1) filled.  That member had to find somewhere else to go if they wanted to promote.  But I guarantee a captain wanting to promote to major would never have such a silly standard applied to them. 

I conduct myself as a SNCO.  I expect others to do the same at their grade.  If they can't or won't, that's on them.  If the expectation and culture in your unit is similar, people will rise to meet it.

It's not karate belts, folks.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Jester on January 05, 2022, 01:45:22 PMThis is a self-induced issue.  If you want to treat your rank structure like a Pokemon game where you just gotta catch 'em all, that's on you.

I look at it as if you're going to do what it takes to move up, you desire to function at that level.  I'm going to treat you like a Lt Col and expect you to function on that level.  If you want to be a Lt Col and never leave the squadron or take command, you should have topped out at 1st Lt. 

I've seen NCOs be denied a promotion because the group HQ already had its complement of SMSgts (1) filled.  That member had to find somewhere else to go if they wanted to promote.  But I guarantee a captain wanting to promote to major would never have such a silly standard applied to them. 

I conduct myself as a SNCO.  I expect others to do the same at their grade.  If they can't or won't, that's on them.  If the expectation and culture in your unit is similar, people will rise to meet it.

It's not karate belts, folks.

I totally agree in the "earn it" approach.

I will say that it can be difficult to treat this as a "go find somewhere else to build up that rank." It's not a paid contract with a stipend or relocation reimbursement. It's not feasible for most CAP personnel to pack up and move to a new wing every 4 years. Though it tries to be like active duty, CAP is much more like the national guard; and you're going to see those 15-year "never promoted because" guys.

That all said, I completely stand by the expectations tied to one's grade. I also have high expectations of those appointed into command roles; most of whom volunteered for them and were not begged to step in. I'm also one to take a look at someone's eServices profile and look at when they joined CAP and what their progression track has been as well as their participation at squadron meetings and other activities. If you haven't been around long, I expect you to be a go-getter who's willing to learn. If you've been around for quite some time, and you're still "just" a first lieutenant or captain, I'm hoping that you're avidly working on your next promotion, and I'm expecting you to act like a professional officer and to be prepared to assume command at any point if needed. It's time to grow up and stop enjoying sitting in the back radio corner all day. We don't devote all of this training and professional development for you to be comfortable with knowing everything but wanting to be a CAP major who does nothing but smoke and swear at the "senior table" during squadron meetings. Get up and go do something constructive.

Eclipse

It's all irrelevant unless you adopt "up and / or out", which doesn't fly in a volunteer organization.

Drop the grade altogether, keep the PD badges.

People who are Commanders, command. No officers, no NCOs, nada.

Pilots are pilots, staff are staff.  Period.

Leave the cadets as-is.

Done.

Without the grade insignia the USAF might have less heartburn about uniform wear,
and you'd likely know who your real assets are in a year as the ones in it for the
bling leave in droves.

"That Others May Zoom"

N6RVT

Quote from: Eclipse on January 05, 2022, 04:08:14 PMIt's all irrelevant unless you adopt "up and / or out", which doesn't fly in a volunteer organization.Drop the grade altogether, keep the PD badges.

Unfortunately, a very significant number of members are here primarily because of it.  The current system lets them become field grade officers without giving them any actual authority and they walk around paying dues and keeping the member numbers up.

Meanwhile the actual power structure is almost totally separated from that, excepting the very visible positions where the rank has to at least make some sense.

If you take military grade away you will lose enough of the membership the organization will no longer function, even though you probably will not lose a significant number of the people who actually do anything.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Dwight Dutton on January 05, 2022, 07:00:29 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 05, 2022, 04:08:14 PMIt's all irrelevant unless you adopt "up and / or out", which doesn't fly in a volunteer organization.Drop the grade altogether, keep the PD badges.

Unfortunately, a very significant number of members are here primarily because of it.  The current system lets them become field grade officers without giving them any actual authority and they walk around paying dues and keeping the member numbers up.

The member dues are great. The paper rosters are totally pointless except to put out a hand and ask for more money for our "xx-thousand members serving nationwide."

QuoteMeanwhile the actual power structure is almost totally separated from that, excepting the very visible positions where the rank has to at least make some sense.

Such as?

QuoteIf you take military grade away you will lose enough of the membership the organization will no longer function, even though you probably will not lose a significant number of the people who actually do anything.

I don't disagree here at all. I think a large number of our members are here because they want that military feel.

Okay, so if we completely disbanded the entire grade/promotion system tomorrow, and we waited 10 years, what would the rosters look like? I definitely think we'd lose a ton of members who feel that they earned their grade (and they're not wrong, given that they had to MOSTLY work through the professional development system to get there). But would anyone care newly joining tomorrow? You'd probably have a few that are like "Nope, this doesn't have that vibe that I'm looking for." But on scale?

We do a lot of Cadet Programs surveys (in fact there's one in my inbox right now). I don't often see senior member surveys asking us about uniform wear and the ranking system. I don't recall ever seeing the option "Because I want to wear a military-style uniform and wear military rank" in the Why did you join/why do you stay? survey. Are we afraid of the results? That maybe a lot more of our members actually do care about that than we want it to be?

Ned

Quote from: Dwight Dutton on January 05, 2022, 07:00:29 PMUnfortunately, a very significant number of members are here primarily because of it. 

Non-concur, from my experience, but obviously there is no data to support either of our positions.

QuoteMeanwhile the actual power structure is almost totally separated from that, excepting the very visible positions where the rank has to at least make some sense.

Which mirrors my military experience fairly closely.  While I certainly had command time, the great majority of my time as a military field grade officer was in staff billets.  I think we keep a five-sided warehouse crammed full of field grade staff officers near Washington somewhere.

And just like CAP, military staff officers have no special inherent authority.  Their authority comes from their boss, the commander.

I'm not seeing the problem.

YMMV

Shuman 14

Again, this is why we should adopt the Warrant Officer Model, with Professional Development linked to the Warrant Officer Grade.

SM - Newly Joined Member

WO-1 Level 1 and Level 2 part 1 complete

CWO-2 Level 2 part 2 complete

CWO-3 Level 3 complete

CWO-4 Level 4 complete

CWO-5 Level 5 complete

If you are in command, you are appointed to a Commissioned Rank appropriate to the level of command you hold.

Squadron Commander Cpt or Maj
Deputy Commander 2nd Lt or 1st Lt

Group Commander Maj or Lt Col

Wing Commander Col

Region Commander Col

etc.

There might be an allowance for graduated commanders to keep their appointed Rank if they successfully complete their command tour. This way you have to take a hard job to earn your Rank.

For all the other staff positions, we are Warrant Officers and that's it.

I would do away with all the special promotions for Doctors, Chaplains, lawyers, etc. and for Prior Service. Give all the Professional Development credit for the Military training and education, but not the rank.

I'd also eliminate the NCO Corps, when everyone is a Warrant Officer, there is no need.

And since the USAF has no Warrants, that helps identify us as CAP Officers and not USAF Officers, which should help with many of the uniform concerns.

ADDED DURING AN EDIT:

Also, I have heard some complaints, from Military personnel, that in the Military, you have to have a Bachelor's Degree to be a Commissioned Officer, but CAP Officers do not.

If we were all Warrant Officers (which are Specialists in their respective fields and do not require degrees to hold their positions/ranks in the Military) that complaint goes away and ceases to be a muttering point.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

N6RVT

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 05, 2022, 07:52:13 PM
Quote from: undefinedMeanwhile the actual power structure is almost totally separated from that, excepting the very visible positions where the rank has to at least make some sense.
Such as?

Wing commander & up, the worn insignia of rank actually matches the position.  LTC and below it has no bearing on what it is you actually do.

N6RVT

Quote from: Shuman 14 on January 05, 2022, 08:04:47 PMAgain, this is why we should adopt the Warrant Officer Model with Professional Development linked to the Warrant Officer Grade.

SM - Newly Joined Member

WO-1 Level 1 and Level 2 part 1 complete

CWO-2 Level 2 part 2 complete

CWO-3 Level 3 complete

CWO-4 Level 4 complete

CWO-5 Level 5 complete

If you are in command, you are appointed to Commission Rank appropriate to the level of command you hold.

Squadron Commander Cpt or Maj
Deputy Commander 2nd Lt or 1st Lt

Group Commander Maj or Lt Col

Wing Commander Col

Region Commander Col

etc.

There might be an allowance for graduated commanders to keep their appointed Rank if they successfully complete their command tour. This way you have to take a hard job to earn your rank.

For all the other staff positions, we are Warrant Officers and that's it.

I do away with all the special promotions for Doctors, Chaplains, lawyers, etc. and for Prior Service. Give all the Professional Development credit for the Military training and education but not the rank.

I'd also eliminate the NCO Corps, when everyone is a Warrant Officer, there is no need.

And since the USAF has no Warrants, that helps identify as CAP Officers not USAF which should help with many of the uniform concerns.

Wow, I, like, agree with every part of this.  I don't even have a suggestion for an improvement anywhere.

PHall

Quote from: Dwight Dutton on January 06, 2022, 12:47:56 AM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 05, 2022, 07:52:13 PM
Quote from: undefinedMeanwhile the actual power structure is almost totally separated from that, excepting the very visible positions where the rank has to at least make some sense.
Such as?

Wing commander & up, the worn insignia of rank actually matches the position.  LTC and below it has no bearing on what it is you actually do.

Your CGAux tenancies are showing...

etodd

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 05, 2022, 03:33:08 PMIf you haven't been around long, I expect you to be a go-getter who's willing to learn. If you've been around for quite some time, and you're still "just" a first lieutenant or captain, I'm hoping that you're avidly working on your next promotion, and I'm expecting you to act like a professional officer and to be prepared to assume command at any point if needed. It's time to grow up and stop enjoying sitting in the back radio corner all day. We don't devote all of this training and professional development for you to be comfortable with knowing everything but wanting to be a CAP major who does nothing but smoke and swear at the "senior table" during squadron meetings. Get up and go do something constructive.

Wow!  Hmmm.  I fit in here. Not everyone wants to "assume command".

As a Mission Pilot, Mission Scanner, Mission Observer, Airborne Photographer, Orientation Pilot, CFII who is teaching Cadets to fly ... but yet will probably never go past being a Captain ... I take offense at being told to go do something constructive. I really enjoy being a worker bee, while others enjoy going the professional development route. I stay quite busy.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

Shuman 14

Quote from: etodd on January 06, 2022, 01:10:00 AMAs a Mission Pilot, Mission Scanner, Mission Observer, Airborne Photographer, Orientation Pilot, CFII who is teaching Cadets to fly ... but yet will probably never go past being a Captain ... I take offense at being told to go do something constructive. I really enjoy being a worker bee, while others enjoy going the professional development route. I stay quite busy.

So would it bother you if you wore a Chief Warrant Officer-3 bar versus your current Captain's railroad track?

You would still be doing the very important job that you already are, the bling would change just slightly.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

etodd

Quote from: Shuman 14 on January 06, 2022, 02:49:19 AMSo would it bother you if you wore a Chief Warrant Officer-3 bar versus your current Captain's railroad track?


Railroad tracks? I have zero idea what a Chief Warrant Officer is.  I'm a polo shirt guy. My Captain status is name only. No certificate, no bling for a shirt, ribbon, etc.  Nada. Not my thing. I'm just a worker bee in the trenches. :)
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

Eclipse

Quote from: etodd on January 06, 2022, 03:36:59 AMNot my thing. I'm just a worker bee in the trenches.

This attitude is part and parcel of the issue and disrespects the grade that someone
saw fit to confer upon you.

If this is your legitimate attitude, you should submit a 2A to your CC request permanent
demotion to Senior Member.

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Quote from: Shuman 14 on January 06, 2022, 02:49:19 AMSo would it bother you if you wore a Chief Warrant Officer-3 bar versus your current Captain's railroad track?

Why do people believe that the fix for CAP's grade issues is simply a different set of grade?

Either do it right, or don't do it at all.

Anything else is just a different color of the same problem.

"That Others May Zoom"

Jester

Quote from: etodd on January 06, 2022, 01:10:00 AM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 05, 2022, 03:33:08 PMIf you haven't been around long, I expect you to be a go-getter who's willing to learn. If you've been around for quite some time, and you're still "just" a first lieutenant or captain, I'm hoping that you're avidly working on your next promotion, and I'm expecting you to act like a professional officer and to be prepared to assume command at any point if needed. It's time to grow up and stop enjoying sitting in the back radio corner all day. We don't devote all of this training and professional development for you to be comfortable with knowing everything but wanting to be a CAP major who does nothing but smoke and swear at the "senior table" during squadron meetings. Get up and go do something constructive.

Wow!  Hmmm.  I fit in here. Not everyone wants to "assume command".

As a Mission Pilot, Mission Scanner, Mission Observer, Airborne Photographer, Orientation Pilot, CFII who is teaching Cadets to fly ... but yet will probably never go past being a Captain ... I take offense at being told to go do something constructive. I really enjoy being a worker bee, while others enjoy going the professional development route. I stay quite busy.

Ok, you're a captain doing captain work.  Keep doing it. 

Also, your "aw shucks I'm just a regular guy" humblebrag/virtue signaling act wore thin a long time ago.

Capt Thompson

Quote from: Eclipse on January 06, 2022, 05:19:27 AMWhy do people believe that the fix for CAP's grade issues is simply a different set of grade?
This right here^^^

If you think the rank structure is an issue, renaming the ranks to different ranks and making members buy new insignia isn't going to fix whatever problems you feel there may or may not be. All you're doing is making another set of problems.

To add to the mess, CAP would end up giving phase out dates a few years out, so for the next 3 years you'll have Captains and CWO3's standing side by side, and nobody knows what to call anyone because the guy with railroad tracks is also a CWO3 in eServices.

Sounds a lot like we're creating a solution for a problem that doesn't really exist.
Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

Capt Thompson

Also, with the changes in PD a few years back, completion of Level III gives you Capt now, and not Maj as it did in the past. Completion of Level IV requires a Master rating in a specialty track, and every track I'm enrolled in requires Group or Wing staff service to achieve a master rating. This pretty much kills the problem you all think exists, if someone doesn't want to step out of the Squadron and assume a higher position, Capt is the highest they will most likely achieve, and field grade positions will pretty much be Group staff or higher.

I'm sure there are still a few tracks where you can achieve Master without ever leaving the Squadron, but it seems as they have been updating them they've been adding that requirement in.
Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

etodd

Quote from: Jester on January 06, 2022, 01:04:46 PMAlso, your "aw shucks I'm just a regular guy" humblebrag/virtue signaling act wore thin a long time ago.

Sure, I mention it here and there. But always as a reminder to folks like I answered above, that not everyone in CAP is fired up about moving up the ranks/grade/whatever. There is nothing wrong with a volunteer who stays Level 1, and is happy to hand out water bottles and gets fulfillment knowing they are helping a cause. Its simply different strokes.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

Eclipse

Quote from: etodd on January 06, 2022, 06:00:27 PMThere is nothing wrong with a volunteer who stays Level 1, and is happy to hand out water bottles and gets fulfillment knowing they are helping a cause. Its simply different strokes.

Of course not, but you didn't do that.  You want the "aw shucks" while at the same time
were happy enough to accept Captain.

"That Others May Zoom"

TheSkyHornet

Okay, I gotta be that guy...

Can we not get into the personal attacks? I say we stick to policy and practice, not person.

Shuman 14

Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Eclipse

I like how I usually get the heat for things others have said or also said.

It's a fun game.

"That Others May Zoom"

etodd

Quote from: Eclipse on January 06, 2022, 06:09:26 PM..... were happy enough to accept Captain.

Mischaracterization. Someone noticed I was CFII and was eligible to be a Captain. Didn't say anything to me. I just got a text message from the CC one day saying you're now a Captain. And that was that. Sure, I guess I could have told him to do the paperwork to take it back. But he seemed thankful to have more promotions in the Squadron, so I just said OK, and went about my way.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

Shuman 14

Quote from: Eclipse on January 06, 2022, 07:12:48 PMI like how I usually get the heat for things others have said or also said.

It's a fun game.

I guess this is your "aw shucks" moment in the sun. (Roll eyes)
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Jester

Quote from: etodd on January 06, 2022, 06:00:27 PM
Quote from: Jester on January 06, 2022, 01:04:46 PMAlso, your "aw shucks I'm just a regular guy" humblebrag/virtue signaling act wore thin a long time ago.

Sure, I mention it here and there. 

Understatement of the year.

PHall

Quote from: etodd on January 06, 2022, 07:14:33 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 06, 2022, 06:09:26 PM..... were happy enough to accept Captain.

Mischaracterization. Someone noticed I was CFII and was eligible to be a Captain. Didn't say anything to me. I just got a text message from the CC one day saying you're now a Captain. And that was that. Sure, I guess I could have told him to do the paperwork to take it back. But he seemed thankful to have more promotions in the Squadron, so I just said OK, and went about my way.

You know, you can put a Form 2 in requesting a voluntary demotion back down to Senior Member if you want. There's nothing punitive about it. It's not like your pay is going to go down or anything like that.

etodd

Quote from: PHall on January 06, 2022, 10:43:09 PM
Quote from: etodd on January 06, 2022, 07:14:33 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 06, 2022, 06:09:26 PM..... were happy enough to accept Captain.

Mischaracterization. Someone noticed I was CFII and was eligible to be a Captain. Didn't say anything to me. I just got a text message from the CC one day saying you're now a Captain. And that was that. Sure, I guess I could have told him to do the paperwork to take it back. But he seemed thankful to have more promotions in the Squadron, so I just said OK, and went about my way.

You know, you can put a Form 2 in requesting a voluntary demotion back down to Senior Member if you want. There's nothing punitive about it. It's not like your pay is going to go down or anything like that.

Interesting. Didn't know. I'll ask my Commander about it.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

N6RVT

In case anyone is curious, I did get an answer to the actual question.  It was September 18, 1947

Shuman 14

Quote from: Dwight Dutton on January 08, 2022, 10:03:00 PMIn case anyone is curious, I did get an answer to the actual question.  It was September 18, 1947

Was there any explanation that came with the answer as to why that specific date?
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Shuman 14 on January 10, 2022, 04:59:35 PM
Quote from: Dwight Dutton on January 08, 2022, 10:03:00 PMIn case anyone is curious, I did get an answer to the actual question.  It was September 18, 1947

Was there any explanation that came with the answer as to why that specific date?

U.S. Air Force was founded.

Shuman 14

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 10, 2022, 05:14:35 PM
Quote from: Shuman 14 on January 10, 2022, 04:59:35 PM
Quote from: Dwight Dutton on January 08, 2022, 10:03:00 PMIn case anyone is curious, I did get an answer to the actual question.  It was September 18, 1947

Was there any explanation that came with the answer as to why that specific date?

U.S. Air Force was founded.


What I was asking what was the rationale for the striping of authority.

Clearly the US Army Air Forces trusted CAP with authority but US Air Force did not... did they say why?
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Eclipse

Quote from: Shuman 14 on January 10, 2022, 07:09:08 PMWhat I was asking what was the rationale for the striping of authority.

Clearly the US Army Air Forces trusted CAP with authority but US Air Force did not... did they say why?

You're conflating things that are not related.

CAP members, per se, have never been Commissioned Officers (though obviously post WWII many
members were also military officers in addition to their CAP status) the authority
of CAP grade has never been "stripped" since it never existed in the first place.

As to trust, the USAF trusts CAP with plenty of things, and grade has never seemed to be
an issue, nor even a discussion point outside the philosophical CAP internal structure.

Another piece often missed in these discussion is that if CAP members were commissioned,
then military officers would have some inherent authority over members regardless of
their station.

As of today, military officers and NCOs have no authority whatsoever over members unless
they have been appointed as such through a staff role, etc., not even CAP USAF, which
has management oversite of the appropriation, and some limited go/no-go at the safety level,
but no actual authority over members (to their undying frustration I can tell you).

"That Others May Zoom"

RiverAux

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 10, 2022, 05:14:35 PM
Quote from: Shuman 14 on January 10, 2022, 04:59:35 PM
Quote from: Dwight Dutton on January 08, 2022, 10:03:00 PMIn case anyone is curious, I did get an answer to the actual question.  It was September 18, 1947

Was there any explanation that came with the answer as to why that specific date?

U.S. Air Force was founded.

I don't see what that has to do with the price of butter. 

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: RiverAux on January 10, 2022, 09:34:49 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 10, 2022, 05:14:35 PM
Quote from: Shuman 14 on January 10, 2022, 04:59:35 PM
Quote from: Dwight Dutton on January 08, 2022, 10:03:00 PMIn case anyone is curious, I did get an answer to the actual question.  It was September 18, 1947

Was there any explanation that came with the answer as to why that specific date?

U.S. Air Force was founded.

I don't see what that has to do with the price of butter.

No clue. That's the "big event in CAP and Air Force history" on that date. Nothing else I can offer on it.

I think we're straying away from what the original question here was: When did rank within CAP stop having any intrinsic value within CAP?


N6RVT

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 11, 2022, 05:45:20 PMWas there any explanation that came with the answer as to why that specific date?
[/quote]

CAP went from being part of the Department of War to a civilian organization under the Department of Defense.  The actual verbage is all in the charter we got at the time.

If you want to make the point that for the first six years CAP consisted of civilians in Army uniforms wearing guns and flying planes with bombs on them, I would counter by asking why CAP ever had military rank in the first place, as it would have never been appropriate.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Dwight Dutton on January 11, 2022, 05:55:45 PMIf you want to make the point that for the first six years CAP consisted of civilians in Army uniforms wearing guns and flying planes with bombs on them, I would counter by asking why CAP ever had military rank in the first place, as it would have never been appropriate.

Because "playing military" has always been a valuable recruiting tool to get numbers.

It's the same reason why the 1920 Boy Scouts used to look like:


And the 1920 U.S. Army uniform looked like:


I'll back up and say that while "playing military" is valuable at bringing people in, it also comes with the perception that they get to actually experience the military (and related privileges) because the organization's culture doesn't appropriately teach/address that mindset.

I can't tell you the number of people who flaunt the whole "We are the Auxiliary to the U.S. Air Force" when talking to a bunch of teenagers.

And that said, I think I'm going to start removing "USAF Aux" off all of my official correspondence. I probably inadvertently contributed to that.

NovemberWhiskey

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 11, 2022, 06:24:25 PMAnd that said, I think I'm going to start removing "USAF Aux" off all of my official correspondence. I probably inadvertently contributed to that.

It's required in the email signature block!

Eclipse

Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on January 11, 2022, 10:06:21 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 11, 2022, 06:24:25 PMAnd that said, I think I'm going to start removing "USAF Aux" off all of my official correspondence. I probably inadvertently contributed to that.

It's required in the email signature block!

It's suggested in a Pamphlet, but I'm not aware of any regulatory document
that makes it required. As I recall the attempts to make it required got flushed
with other reg changes.

But the ways people ignore the very simple guidelines shows how creative our members
are!

Fun fact: the Branding Guidelines web pages appear to be non-compliant with
the not-required anyway web guidelines, and they are hosted on a non-CAP server!

https://company-214080.frontify.com/d/crhrf1Aw1Ci9/brand-guide

#WINNING!

"That Others May Zoom"

heliodoc

I like the hashtag, Eclipse!!

Another Do as I as say, not as I do ...Branding being on non compliant non CAP servers

How Quaint...Corporation being all #TotalForceWhenIWantitToBe

SarDragon

Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret