India puts nuclear plants on alert: AMERICA WAKE UP

[wingnut55]

U.S. authorities arrested David Headley, a U.S. citizen, on October 3 on charges of hatching a plot to attack a Danish newspaper whose cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed led to deadly protests by Muslims.

New Delhi has asked to interview Headley over possible plans to attack Indian targets and are investigating various visits to the country.

The U.S. government said Headley also traveled to Pakistan where he met a leader of a group with ties to al Qaeda, Harakat-ul Jihad Islami, and communicated with members of the militant group Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT), according to the U.S. government.

HOME GROWN THREAT:

Should CAP NHQ take CHARGE and formulate a CAP National Response to Nuclear Terrorism?? or just sit back let the WINGS struggle one by one??

[Gunner C]

Honestly, I think this one would be out of our league.  But on a purely logical note, do you really think anyone can actually destroy/disable a nuke plant or cause a nuclear accident/incident?

The containment facilities have metal rebar in them larger than your arm.  The concrete is exceedingly hard and several feet thick.  They are basically impregnable.  If you're thinking about an aircraft breaching the concrete, forget it.  A fully loaded 757 that hit the Pentagon (a masonry building), didn't penetrate the outer ring.  The rest of a nuclear power plant is just, well, a power plant pretty much like any other with turbines, generators, and a handling yard.

Even if someone could breach one of these buildings, you don't want to be down wind from it without the proper equipment and decon capabilities. I don't see CAP pilots or observers flying in MOPP 4 with cadets scrubbing down the local Cessna 182.

ANY national response that is believable has to be part of a multi-agency plan supporting an overarching plan (The National Response Plan).  Sorry, but we're not part of it, except as invited by 1st AF.

[sparks]

Absolutely, Nuclear reactors can't be breached by terrorist using commercial aircraft. Predicting such an event may make for spectacular headlines on FOX but it isn't a realistic probability.

Although some CAP units have been trained in radiation monitoring we haven't been equipped to perform the mission. The equipment I was trained to use was ancient Civil Defense radiation monitors from the 50's. No equipment for the aircraft so I wonder how that would have worked out. It would take days to decontaminate a 172 or 182 since every cylinder fin would be a potential trap fro "hot" particles, oh boy.

Today the best equipment we can use is a good digital camera with GPS for monitoring infrastructure

[Flying Pig]

The Department of Energy and local law enforcement would be the handle.  I dont see CAP getting this gig or even being prepared to handle it.  I go through WMD Training every year through work and its a joke, let alone setting up volunteers to do it.  Last I checked, we dont have MOPP suits and I havnt been checked out to fly in a gas mask.  Sorry, there are some things where my "volunteer" status ends and I say leave it to the paid guys.

[Pylon]

U.S. authorities arrested David Headley, a U.S. citizen, on October 3 on charges of hatching a plot to attack a Danish newspaper whose cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed led to deadly protests by Muslims.

New Delhi has asked to interview Headley over possible plans to attack Indian targets and are investigating various visits to the country.

The U.S. government said Headley also traveled to Pakistan where he met a leader of a group with ties to al Qaeda, Harakat-ul Jihad Islami, and communicated with members of the militant group Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT), according to the U.S. government.

HOME GROWN THREAT:

Should CAP NHQ take CHARGE and formulate a CAP National Response to Nuclear Terrorism?? or just sit back let the WINGS struggle one by one??

A)  What does the article you posted have to do with nuclear terrorism?

B)  CAP doesn't have the ability to "take CHARGE" in matters of national security, law enforcement or the security of other people's facilities. 

C)  I don't understand what the "WINGS struggle" with in regards to this intensely complex perceived threat.  Have any CAP Wings officially identified needs for support from NHQ in meeting the needs of real customers that have come forward for CAP's services?

[Fuzzy]

Am I the only one who utterly detests the phrase "America wake up!!!!".

Besides this guy is just a troll or something.

[Rotorhead]

U.S. authorities arrested David Headley, a U.S. citizen, on October 3 on charges of hatching a plot to attack a Danish newspaper whose cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed led to deadly protests by Muslims.

New Delhi has asked to interview Headley over possible plans to attack Indian targets and are investigating various visits to the country.

The U.S. government said Headley also traveled to Pakistan where he met a leader of a group with ties to al Qaeda, Harakat-ul Jihad Islami, and communicated with members of the militant group Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT), according to the U.S. government.

HOME GROWN THREAT:

Should CAP NHQ take CHARGE and formulate a CAP National Response to Nuclear Terrorism?? or just sit back let the WINGS struggle one by one??

Given the fact that a substantial portion of our membership can't be bothered with getting the current basic FEMA qualifications done, I don't think we're in any position to deal with a challenge like this, nor will we be.

[NCRblues]

We actually have a working agreement with the state and county to help out in case of an emergency (any emergency not just terror) with our reactor in Callaway county. Our deal is to help set up and run the emergency relief center that the state will take those that need to be evacuated from their homes. We have been told point blank we won't go anywhere near the power plant, no matter what.

[wuzafuzz]

We actually have a working agreement with the state and county to help out in case of an emergency (any emergency not just terror) with our reactor in Callaway county. Our deal is to help set up and run the emergency relief center that the state will take those that need to be evacuated from their homes. We have been told point blank we won't go anywhere near the power plant, no matter what.

Sounds appropriate to me.  A good community service without delusions of grandeur. 

[JayT]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueEl7A7KaHA

13:33! America's Civil Air Patrol stands ready to response to an H-Bomb attack!

[flyerthom]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueEl7A7KaHA

13:33! America's Civil Air Patrol stands ready to response to an H-Bomb attack!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--_RGM4Abv8

F 4 Phantom vs simulated nuclear plant wall.

[O-Rex]

Has anyone noticed that Radiological Monitor has disappeared from the new 60-3??

[Flying Pig]

^Does CAP even do the training anymore?  Id be interested in it just out of...well, interest.

[RiverAux]

Should CAP NHQ take CHARGE and formulate a CAP National Response to Nuclear Terrorism?? or just sit back let the WINGS struggle one by one??

Other than the idea that DNALL (I think -- where has he been anyway?) used to promote of getting radiation detectors installed on our aircraft for potentially identifying possibly illegal radioactive sources (not for responding to incidents like the plan was in the old days), I'm not really sure what we can do in this arena. 

If there is some sort of dirty bomb or real bomb, about all we can do is some of our typical missions of transporting very small amounts of supplies or personnel or perhaps providing general assistance at shelters and the like.   Possibly aerial monitoring of evacuation routes.  Basically the same sort of thing we might do in response to a hurricane. 

But the general point that NHQ doesn't have much of a plan for responding to large scale disaster missions is a good one.  With the apparent demise of the C4s, I expect we'll be going back to improvising on the fly.

[RADIOMAN015]

Should CAP NHQ take CHARGE and formulate a CAP National Response to Nuclear Terrorism?? or just sit back let the WINGS struggle one by one??

Well it is possible that CAP could be tasked to provide some local transportation to the Nuclear Emergency Support Teams http://www.nv.doe.gov/library/FactSheets/NEST.pdf and maybe (although a very slim possiblitly IMHO)  even carry some detection sensors. 

BUT we have to remember that just about every state now has military national guard teams (WMD-CST) http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/army/wmd-cst.htm     So there's is a committed "known" response capability.  In CAP we really don't know what someones' availability is until we make the alert call.
RM

[BlackKnight]

Absolutely, Nuclear reactors can't be breached by terrorist using commercial aircraft. Predicting such an event may make for spectacular headlines on FOX but it isn't a realistic probability.

In my day job I'm a nuclear safety analysis engineer. I construct computer models of nuclear plants and run accident scenarios on them to see if the designs pass muster. In the interest of engineering accuracy I would like to state that US commercial nuclear containments are NOT designed to withstand direct impact from a commercial airliner or similar large aircraft. To my knowledge that scenario has never been in our design standards.  The newest European reactors are designed to withstand impact from military jet fighters.  Whether the new generation of US plant containments will be required to withstand large aircraft impact with no significant damage is still being evaluated by the NRC.  But they probably won't be.  We supposedly have a better Air Force than Europe does. 

Would a nuclear accident with significant radiation release occur if a 747 was crashed into a US nuclear containment building?  Very unlikely.  The containment might suffer several thru-wall cracks and lose pressure integrity, but the aircraft would be obliterated like a bug on a windshield. The reactor probably wouldn't even trip until the fireball affected the adjacent turbine building and caused the unit to separate from the main electrical grid.  There would of course be long term issues associated with massive damage to the surrounding site (debris, power lines and pipes broken, offices damaged, workers injured or killed) but the reactor and nuclear core would be mostly unaffected and a normal shutdown would be executed.  There are additional rings of reinforced steel and concrete around the reactor and coolant pipes inside the containment. The containment is just the first of several layers of structural defense.

If one were a terrorist there are much easier targets to hit than a nuclear plant.  You'd have to be truly ignorant of basic physics (and manned 50-cal machine gun platforms) to try to go after one of these facilities without the aid of heavy duty military hardware.

[Flying Pig]

BlackKinight, very interesting.  I am always amazed at what some people do for a living.  My dad used to work at San Onofre as one of the grunts who put the refueling rods down into the reactors.  (Or something like that).

Ive had the opportunity to train with some of the SRT units from various Nuclear Power Plants.  All on the east coast. Pretty much all of them are contracted through Wackenhut Security Services.  They arent military and have no LE authority.  But they pack a punch that most cops cant even dream of.
Very good teams with the ability to handle almost anything.  Aside from Close Air Support and Naval guns, they bring pretty much everything to the fight that an Infantry Company would have, if not more.  A couple even have their own aviation units.
Having worked with NEST, I don't really see a time when they would be transported by CAP.  The two times I worked with them, once they came in 18 wheelers with so much gear it would take a fleet of C-206s to carry them and the second time they came in 4 CH-47's. ( and landed at an undisclosed location  )  If NEST ever gets called for real, the government wont be have an issue transporting them.

Disclaimer:
Before anyone falls out of their chairs over OPSEC all of their weapons and capabilities can be found online.

[wingnut55]

We spend a trillion dollars on US Government TSA luggage inspectors and yet we Hire private security for a plant that if compromised or blown could result in the evacuation of 10 million people from an area for 100 years or more. Possibly 100,000 dead and sick.

I am sure Wakenhut  and other Mall Guard organizations get INTEL directly from the FBI
Sounds like the problems identified years before 9-11 are not fixed. Our biggest enemy is ourselves and the threats from within our own border.

[Al Sayre]

I am also an Engineer at a nuclear plant in my day job, and can echo the the statements of BlackKnight and Flying Pig.  Our Security was recently moved from Wackenhut to in-house, but I don't think who writes their checks is what matters.  It's the people who are dedicated to the protection of the facility, and from what I've seen, they're pretty good at it.  Ours just passed a month of Force on Force testing and came away with very high honors from the NRC.

[JayT]

We spend a trillion dollars on US Government TSA luggage inspectors and yet we Hire private security for a plant that if compromised or blown could result in the evacuation of 10 million people from an area for 100 years or more. Possibly 100,000 dead and sick.

I am sure Wakenhut  and other Mall Guard organizations get INTEL directly from the FBI
Sounds like the problems identified years before 9-11 are not fixed. Our biggest enemy is ourselves and the threats from within our own border.

Yeah, because the TSA is the very model of an excellent government organization....I mean, they're practically the Special Frces of aviation security.

[Flying Pig]

Actually, the SRT Officers at the plants are FAR from mall security guards.  Don't let the fact that they are employed by Wackenhut lure you into believing these guys were recruited from the local shopping centers. 
About 5 years ago, I seriously considered leaving Law Enforcement to become an SRT officer at Lawrence Livermore.  One of the requirements was that you had to have full time law enforcement SWAT experience or military special operations experience and be able to obtain a Top Secret with PRP status.  I had all three.  Many of the members were former USMC FAST Marines who did the same exact job as Marines at Weapons Stations.  When they got out, it was an easy switch.
So believe me, I wasn't going to leave police work to become a mall guard.  They get their intelligence from the FBI, DHS, DOE and CA DOJ.  I had a contact up there that I was talking with and could not believe the weapons, equipment, capabilities and training they had at their disposal. 

[Gunner C]

These guys who are talking about "mall guards" don't even know what the PRP is.  I'm a three time loser. 

The old (and I guess continuing) Grizzly Hitch program found problems with these sites years ago.  DOE got on the ball and fixed it.  These guys who guard the sites are the real deal. 

The folks who denigrate folks who guard the nuke sites, guard the airports, guard whatever, are for the most part blisterheads.  The Wackenhut folks can hold their own against any threat now available.  The TSOs at airports are stopping threats every day.  You don't hear about them, but I do.  I read every report - you don't.  Yeah, there's always someone who screws the pooch.  (How about the Secret Service?  Do they ever let anyone close to the president who shouldn't be there?  Are they a bunch of losers?)

Between the idiotic opinion some folks have that is fed by an unscrupulous news media (yeah, they lie through their teeth sometimes.  I know - I have the real information right in front of me and they're reporting the exact opposite) and the need to make someone look stupid because it makes storyteller feel better.  You don't know as much as you think.  You don't know what the current threats are, you don't know what's been stopped, you don't know any more than what you've seen on your boob-tube.

There's a real, dangerous world out there.  If you want the government to protect you, then the next time you call for a plane reservation, give up your personal information (all of it) to the person on the telephone.  We'll then have the ability to see if you are who you really say you are and you'll literally run through screening.  But we have civil liberties in this country and your rights need to be protected.  They bad guys know this and they use it.  That's why there's level upon level of security.  Some of it you know about, some of it you don't.

Do people ever get through?  Yes.  Christmas was an example.  But that's between you, Northwest Airlines, and the Dutch Government.  They let him on, not TSA.  As for the "intelligence", don't believe everything you hear on TV. 

There's many of us who go to work every day who do our best to keep folks like you safe.  Some are intelligence professionals like me, others are up close and personal with the public. Sure, all we get are mall guard comments (I thought the comment using the "A" word was particularly pithy - thx for the moderate language) and TSA - practically the SF of aviation security (I've been in both, you haven't - you don't know what you're talking about as usual just as you said the government is spending trillions of dollars on it - if they were, I wouldn't have to bring my own pencil to work).  And by the way, the biggest threat isn't from within our own border. That's a stupid comment from the word go.  Getting our intel directly from the FBI - once again, you don't know how the system works.

I enjoyed the nuke site engineering comments from Al and Blacknight.  You have some professional, measured opinions based on real experience.  Once again Flying Pig and puts some sanity on things from real experience.  But most of the rest here (not all) is worthy of old coots sitting around the cracker barrel in a general store.  They've never been out of town, but they know how everything works.

[JayT]

I'm not quite sure how I got dragged into that post....my comment was more towards the effect of that private security contractors aren't less qualified or less dedicated because they're not federal employees.

Combining the worst parts of two completely seperate posts from seperate people and debunking it is your choice, of course.

[Flying Pig]

I think he was talking about that it came across as insulting them.  Sorta like the big fat guy sitting at home yelling that Bret Favre is an idiot and doesn't know anything about football.  Thats how I took Gunners post.  TSA screeners are easy target for scrutiny unfortunately.  Its like yelling at a cop because something is illegal. 

Being in the industry, it can be amusing to hear people who have no foundation for the topic yell about how things should be.  Im not speaking for him, but thats how I understood his post.

[MIKE]

What does this have to do with CAP operations again?

[Flying Pig]

People talking about how CAP can support NEST in radiological emergencies.  People with real life experience dealing with Nuclear Security, Nuclear Emergencies and Intelligence Services giving non-involved CAP members a look inside that world based on real time experience.  A discussion about crashing planes into a nuclear plant.  A CAP member comes on and basically says, Yeah, its my job to deal with that scenario........here is what I think. Wow, what a resource.
Then we had some comments where another CAP member set straight some misconceptions.  I learned there are CAP members here that I have that background in common with.


By the way, I believe DNALL is in Army Flight School.

[Flying Pig]

http://jobs-wsi.icims.com/jobs/2020/job

Thought a couple of you may be interested in looking at this.  Far from a Mall Cop.  "Q" Clearance is what is required to work around nuclear material.  HRP I believe is the civilian version of the militaries PRP.