Its volunteers perform 90 percent of the inland search and rescue missions in th

[wingnut55]

I am embarrassed that CAP continues to use this in National and Local press releases. This is a completely false statement. My concern; That by constantly putting this in the news, I have been told by those people who know the truth scoff at CAP and are critical of CAP.

CAP both National and Locally, should not be  telling people we are something we are not.

What is wrong with;

Civil Air Patrol Does 90% of Missing Aircraft searches in the United States for the United States Air Force

[RiverAux]

Usually this statement also includes something along the lines of "as tasked by the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center" in which case it is generally accurate - though the percentage does seem to vary between 85-95% depending on the year.  If they aren't using the latter clause, then they are incorrect. 

[Short Field]

So what is the truth?  What precent do we perform and what percent do other agencies perform?  Who are the people that scoff at us?

Big bold statement, how about some facts to back it up?

[RiverAux]

Here is what CAP NHQ used in the anniversary press release:

CAP responds day or night when planes are overdue and emergency locator transmitters go off. Its volunteers perform 90 percent of continental U.S. inland search and rescue missions, as tasked by the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center.

AFRCC hasn't published a report for several years, but a while back I did some fact checking and the numbers CAP have been using are right in the ballpark. 

[Flying Pig]

Being in Law Enforcement SAR, I can say with pretty good certainty that we dont do 90% of the nations SAR.  CAP has a couple other blurbs it likes to put out as well, such as stating that we were the first to provide photos of ground zero on 9/11.  Sorry, we were way behind the first photos and videos.

[Eclipse]

Bear in mind that Inland SAR, as the USAF sees it, is not unnecessarily every missing Alzheimer's patient or Amber Alert.

Its a pretty specific definition within the scope of the USAF's CONUS mission.

Also, most of the DR work that we do perform doesn't fall into that category.

The number is close enough for conversation...

[wingnut55]

Well grasshopper, How can you prove that CAP

"Does 90% of the SEARCH and RESCUE in the United States"



This is a completely false and missleading Press release, who are we trying to impress?  Us!! are we really that needy that we have to lie to people about what we do, I guess it is why we have 99% officers and a few hundred enlisted people, so we can stand around and admire our ribbons.

Let me tell you that it is known in many quarters that CAP can barely handle the mission and the truth is 30% of  flying is in support of CD not searching. Once the ELT false alarm fiasco goes away, my oh my what will we do??

Put wreaths on graves? is that what CAP was created for? Park Cars at air shows?

Look at the aircraft usage numbers for wings. 200 hours per aircraft/per year? not even close

I have participated in Searches in California, Arizona, and Utah many of the CAP pilots who actually do are in their upper 60s, and a significant number are older. Not good! recruiting and retention is in the soup, Pilots are leaving CAP in record numbers.

Giving them more bling and making them all Majors is not helping.

[RiverAux]

Being in Law Enforcement SAR, I can say with pretty good certainty that we dont do 90% of the nations SAR.  CAP has a couple other blurbs it likes to put out as well, such as stating that we were the first to provide photos of ground zero on 9/11.  Sorry, we were way behind the first photos and videos.

Who beat us for airborne photos?

[wingnut55]

Try Google search for CAP and check news here are just 2

Today, CAP performs all kinds of missions and serves the local community. They conduct more than 90-percent of land rescue missions in the United States
http://www.rrdailyherald.com/articles/2008/11/18/news/doc492307859f68d964393982.txt

It responds day or night when a plane is overdue and an emergency locator transmitter goes off. Its volunteers perform 90 percent of the inland search and rescue missions in the continental U.S

http://blogs.kansas.com/aviation/2008/11/24/civil-air-patrol-celebrates/

This is just a LIE and it should be stopped, CAP needs to take a responsible position in the Search and Rescue Community, we are doing continued damage to our already damaged reputation in the Law Enforcement, Fire Department, and search and Rescue organizations in every county of the U.S.

And if we have the PAO program that re say we do than they are poorly trained and Missinformed, ergo the perpatuate a falsehood.

[heliodoc]

Airborne photos??

Unless CAP can prove it was off the ground in 1 hour, I can imagine the FIRST photos (airborne) were that of the news media helos and LE shortly thereafter...

Yup CAP did some but the FIRST................ do not think so unless  FAA has it on tape....

[Ricochet13]

Airborne photos??

Unless CAP can prove it was off the ground in 1 hour, I can imagine the FIRST photos (airborne) were that of the news media helos and LE shortly thereafter...

Yup CAP did some but the FIRST................ do not think so unless  FAA has it on tape....

Someone correct me.  As I recall, ALL aircraft (including media helos, etc) except military were grounded on September 11th after the nature of the attacks became known.  Even commercial flights inbound to the United States had to seek landings in Canada, etc.  CAP aircraft were used to provide aerial damage assessment.   Again, as I recall, it was several days before I could roll out my Skyhawk and fly. 

[Ricochet13]

Well grasshopper, How can you prove that CAP

"Does 90% of the SEARCH and RESCUE in the United States"

This is a completely false and missleading Press release, who are we trying to impress?  Us!! are we really that needy that we have to lie to people about what we do, I guess it is why we have 99% officers and a few hundred enlisted people, so we can stand around and admire our ribbons.

Let me tell you that it is known in many quarters that CAP can barely handle the mission and the truth is 30% of  flying is in support of CD not searching. Once the ELT false alarm fiasco goes away, my oh my what will we do??

Put wreaths on graves? is that what CAP was created for? Park Cars at air shows?

Look at the aircraft usage numbers for wings. 200 hours per aircraft/per year? not even close

I have participated in Searches in California, Arizona, and Utah many of the CAP pilots who actually do are in their upper 60s, and a significant number are older. Not good! recruiting and retention is in the soup, Pilots are leaving CAP in record numbers.

Giving them more bling and making them all Majors is not helping.

I was going to respond to this, but frankly, there must be something else going on which motivates this type of comment, so I won't.  Doesn't seem to fit what I see in my squadron, group, and wing.   

[lordmonar]

Yep....another "let's bash CAP for no good reason" post.

Lock?

[RiverAux]

wingnut, the official CAP statement is that we do 90% of the SAR as tasked by AFRCC.  That number is accurate.  Pull up some of the older AFRCC reports and do the math and you will find that it is just about right (as I said earlier, the exact percentage will vary from year to year).  

I am sure that you will be able to find more than a few CAP press releases that get it wrong and say that we do 90% of SAR in the US.  When such statements are seen, I would hope that someone would correct the person that issued the release.

However, even when the CAP statement is worded correctly in the release that the media will often make it wrong by leaving off the AFRCC statement.  

No big CAP conspiracy here.

[KyCAP]

Look at the aircraft usage numbers for wings. 200 hours per aircraft/per year? not even close

KY  AVG Hours 277  8.3 aircraft ...  We asked for additional aircraft to support the load.... for 6 months.

[isuhawkeye]

I wasn't planning on getting into this conversation, but I thought I would ask. 

During Katrina the AFRCC must have tasked a lot of flights.  It would be interesting to see the numbers for that year,

No CAP bashing intended

[KyCAP]

I've had the same thoughts, but since it was basically a "maritime" event in the main area and the "USCG" handling those probably just beefed up the "maritime" stats...  Just a thought..

[RiverAux]

AFRCC didn't handle Katrina.  AFNSEP (might have changed its name) does AF disasater-related taskings. 

[FW]

Airborne photos??

Unless CAP can prove it was off the ground in 1 hour, I can imagine the FIRST photos (airborne) were that of the news media helos and LE shortly thereafter...

Yup CAP did some but the FIRST................ do not think so unless  FAA has it on tape....

Someone correct me.  As I recall, ALL aircraft (including media helos, etc) except military were grounded on September 11th after the nature of the attacks became known.  Even commercial flights inbound to the United States had to seek landings in Canada, etc.  CAP aircraft were used to provide aerial damage assessment.   Again, as I recall, it was several days before I could roll out my Skyhawk and fly. 

A CAP aircraft was circling ground zero at the request of  Gov. Pitaki on 9/12  It was the first civilian aircraft to fly over the site and take pictures.  The pictures show ground zero to still be smoldering from the fires and explosions.  CNN was the first news agency to report this fact and was picked up later by many other agencies.  The aircrew was given a commendation from Gen Bowling and there is a painting of the sortie at NHQ.  Prints have been given out to members for the last 7 years.  

As far as the "90%" comment is concerned.  The "full" statement is accurate as reported.  That it sometimes gets distorted is unfortunate however, CAP stands by the statement as does the Air Force.  Any other comments on this do not warrant a response, IMHO.

[RiverAux]

Airborne photos??

Unless CAP can prove it was off the ground in 1 hour, I can imagine the FIRST photos (airborne) were that of the news media helos and LE shortly thereafter...

Yup CAP did some but the FIRST................ do not think so unless  FAA has it on tape....

According to the 2001 CAP Annual report:

"Civil Air Patrol provided the first direct aerial perspective of the disaster site for the STate of New York," says Dan O'Brien, Graphic Information Program Manager for the State Emergency Operations center in Albany, N.Y....."The photos were the first images we'd seen looking down on the site and showed debris on top of the buildings and damage to rooftops."

Unfortunately I think we're seeing the start of another urban myth that is going to infect CAPTalk for years.  I'd advise you to keep a copy of the quote above handy as we're probably going to need it again....

[sardak]

That it sometimes gets distorted is unfortunate...

When such statements are seen, I would hope that someone would correct the person that issued the release.

Distortion of the 90% statement
Performs 90 percent of nation's inland search and rescue
Source: http://www.cap.gov/visitors/quick_info/

Almost right, but still distorted
Conducts approximately 90 percent of inland search and rescue in the U.S., as tasked by the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center and other agencies
Sources:
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/medi/cms/CAP_Fact_Sheet_1_July_08_975932D49AD87.pdf

http://www.cap.gov/visitors/news/media_center/civil_air_patrol_fact_sheet/

http://www.cap.gov/visitors/members/public_affairs/pa_toolkit/toolkit_contents/
This links to the CAP fact sheet.

It's stated "correctly" in the press releases from NHQ and as taught at the national PAO academy:
CAP performs 90 percent of continental U.S. inland search and rescue missions as tasked by the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center

This interesting statement is in the presentation that the AFRCC gives to the state SAR coordinators:
Ask for assistance - AFRCC has no tasking authority

Mike

[DNall]

It's stated "correctly" in the press releases from NHQ and as taught at the national PAO academy:
CAP performs 90 percent of continental U.S. inland search and rescue missions as tasked by the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center

Which makes a horrible sound bite.

You never hear your fire dept saying they respond to 99% of fire/rescue emergencies as tasked by their dispatcher and within their given jursidiction. But that's exactly the case.

If any other agency or responder is out there whining about this misquote, that's petty immature BS. They should read the stuff their agency is putting out for public consumption & to the level of govt that funds them. It's just as skewed, I guarantee it. If it wasn't, they wouldn't get funded.

Let me tell you from some Washington experience, everything you see says the sky is falling & if you don't continue or increase this funding, or change this policy then the world as we know it will end. It's all 90% BS, but without it there is no funding for anyone.

[RiverAux]

That it sometimes gets distorted is unfortunate...

When such statements are seen, I would hope that someone would correct the person that issued the release.

Distortion of the 90% statement
Performs 90 percent of nation's inland search and rescue
Source: http://www.cap.gov/visitors/quick_info/

Almost right, but still distorted
Conducts approximately 90 percent of inland search and rescue in the U.S., as tasked by the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center and other agencies
Sources:
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/medi/cms/CAP_Fact_Sheet_1_July_08_975932D49AD87.pdf

http://www.cap.gov/visitors/news/media_center/civil_air_patrol_fact_sheet/

http://www.cap.gov/visitors/members/public_affairs/pa_toolkit/toolkit_contents/
This links to the CAP fact sheet.

It's stated "correctly" in the press releases from NHQ and as taught at the national PAO academy:
CAP performs 90 percent of continental U.S. inland search and rescue missions as tasked by the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center

This interesting statement is in the presentation that the AFRCC gives to the state SAR coordinators:
Ask for assistance - AFRCC has no tasking authority

Mike

Since NHQ public affairs very obviously monitors this board, I'm fairly positive that they will soon have these mistakes fixed on the web page. 

So, while it is clear that the complete statement is accurate, the broader question that we might want to consider is whether or not it actually helps us.  As acknowledged, the statement is often misquoted by papers and not unusually messed up by CAP members ourselves, so the question is even when the correct statement is made --- Does it help us? 

No one in the world knows who AFRCC is or what they do, so saying that we do 90% of the SAR handled by them means nothing to 99.9% of the public and probably 90% of the Air Force itself.  Obviously, we use it to stress that we do a lot of SAR work, but we might get that point across more effectively using other statistics.

For example, a statement such as "Civil Air Patrol performs about 2,500 search and rescue and 1,000 disaster relief missions nationwide every year. "

That sure would put things in a context that everybody could understand and quite frankly, is more impressive than saying we do 90% of AFRCC work -- for all everybody knows, AFRCC handles 10 missions a year.   

[Eclipse]

I wouldn't wait to exhale on the change, its a stat that's been in use since before I joined, people have been questioning it for the same amount of time, and it hasn't gone anywhere since.

I use it as a conversation starter with potential members.  You're right, no one knows what the AFRCC is, so that's a discussion point, few know what SAR really is, or an ELT, or any of the dozens of other "CMJ" (colorful military jargon) that we use regularly.

What I have found is that those who are uninterested accept what yo are saying, take the free pen off the table and move on, those actually interested in CAP ask the second question.

Few organizations publish statistics without some sort of bend or invisible asterisk that favors the organization.  I don't think its really a big deal.

[Larry Mangum]

I did a little research and used data from AFRCC for FY 2005, the latest they have made available and derived the following statistics:

Total of ALL Units tasked by AFRCC                            CAP Totals due to AFRCC Tasking
FltHrs   Sorties  Saves Missions                                   FltHrs      Sorties  Saves Missions
5694.9 2469     442    2571                                         5154.56  2122     64      2404

Based upon those numbers CAP performed:   90.51% of the total Flight Hours
                                                                         85.95% of the Sorties
                                                                         14.48% of the Saves
                                                                         93.50% of the Missions

So the figures quoted by NHQ are not out of line with the data published by AFRCC Annual Report.

What makes those figures seem suspect, is that they do not take into account missions where a state was notified by AFRCC and they handled it themselves.  But they are indicative of the missions in which AFRCC tasked either a unit of the Active, Reserve or Guard plus the Coast Guard and CAP.

[isuhawkeye]

here is a question.  how many "search and rescue missions" does AFRCC handle and close out themselves by simply making phine calls?

[Larry Mangum]

here is a question.  how many "search and rescue missions" does AFRCC handle and close out themselves by simply making phine calls?

Unknown, they do not list themself as a tasked unit in the data.

[Flying Pig]

Being in Law Enforcement SAR, I can say with pretty good certainty that we dont do 90% of the nations SAR.  CAP has a couple other blurbs it likes to put out as well, such as stating that we were the first to provide photos of ground zero on 9/11.  Sorry, we were way behind the first photos and videos.

Who beat us for airborne photos?

NYPD's Bell 412EP Air Sea Rescue Helicopter provided the first photos.  They were on scene within minutes of the initial incident and provided photos and video of the incident as it unfolded and after.  Yes, of course, CAP was there much later and did do a service.  However, its a disservice to the NYPD officers who really did provide the first images to suggest otherwise.  I would do the same if Law Enforcement was taking credit for something significant that CAP accomplished.  This is how history gets distorted.

[heliodoc]

If what Flying Pig is right.....

Then maybe Mr Pataki asked for CAP and got a a 412

Is that possible for all you CAP'ers who may have thought we were out the gate first??

I am still in the firm belief even with the closures of airways during the first 1 to 2 hours...  LE and such were up there...FIRST and CAP got its mention after the fact

I'd have to believe the 412 was up BEFORE the 182 any day.  Maybe CAP should start looking at the facts

[bosshawk]

As I understand the issue, the report that NYWG had a 172 over ground zero the day after 9/11 is correct.  I also suspect that there were classified photos of ground zero within hours of the event, but I don't know that for a fact.

I know that I flew a CAP mission in CA/OR the next day: carried a load of blood from Watsonville, Ca to Medford, OR.  Eerie on the radio: I was the only aircraft in the air for most of that flight.

The argument about CAPs claim on SAR is a waste of time.

[Larry Mangum]

AFRCC didn't handle Katrina.  AFNSEP (might have changed its name) does AF disasater-related taskings. 

AFNSEP missions are now handled by AFRCC. That is why the Tempest Rapid report went away.

[bosshawk]

As I see from subsequent posts, I was partially in error: not surprised that the NYPD 412 was first on the scene. 

The whole subject that CAP was first or might have been first is superflous.  We provided a service to the State of NY and that is one of our proper missions.  First or last only counts in your mind.

[Larry Mangum]

I will agree that the discussion on SAR Numbers is pointless, there simply is not enough data to support either view. I suspect no one really knows how many sorties are actually generated a year as there is no central clearing house that tracks such numbers.  All CAP can use is the numbers provided to it by AFRCC.  It would be stupidity on the part of anyone to suggest that CAP provides 90% of t he total SAR missions nationwide, but the data does support that we provide 90%+ of the missions generated by AFRCC based upon AFRCC data. What percentage of SAR's AFRCC is involved in, is anyone guess.

[JayT]

From my Group webpage.

http://lig.nywg.cap.gov/wtc.html

[EMT-83]

Every photo I've seen of that CAP 172 over ground zero shows a red, white and blue CAP paint job. In fact, 44L is a CD aircraft with no markings. That doesn't make the mission any less important, but is gross misrepresentation of history.

The altered photo was displayed at the NER conference, and no one seemed to notice.

[FW]

^ I know of no actual photo of the aircraft performing the sortie however, there  are prints of a painting circulating which you may be referring about.  It was the artist's choice to illustrate the aircraft in the CAP paint scheme.  The prints are very popular and, IMHO, there is no misrepresentation  of actual events or histroy.

[wingnut55]

WELL IT WOULD NOT BE THE FIRST TIME A PAO GOT IT WRONG

I DREAD THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL DOCUMENTARY ON THE FOSSETT MISSION

I SURE HOPE CERTAIN PEOPLE (NAMES WILL REMAIN ANNONOMOUS) DO NOT SHOW UP ON THERE WITHOUT PERMISSION.

HAVE YOU EVER RUN INTO A PUFFER FISH? ARE THEY FILLED WITH HOT AIR, OR WATER?

[EMT-83]

I stand corrected. I was shown the picture by another member, who said it was a photo taken from another aircraft that day. The printing was of such poor quality that I didn't question it.

If the prints are popular, I hope it's more obvious to others that this is an artist's impression of what occurred over New York City.

[afgeo4]

I hate to make this simple for y'all but...


1. CAP is credited for up to 90% of SAR taskings that AFRCC handles. That is, of all the SAR missions that AFRCC handles, it gives up to 90% of them to CAP (CAP may not be the only agency involved, but it is involved).

Now... how many SAR missions (out of all of them) go to AFRCC for tasking in the first place? That's the real question. Most SAR missions don't go up to the federal government because local agencies can complete the mission by themselves. It is only when federal assistance is required that these requests go to the Air Force (or if they come straight from SARSAT). Thus, CAP does not do 90% if all inland SAR missions, just 90% of those that are tasked by AFRCC.

2. AFRCC definitely can task CAP for missions. They can't task state or local gov't agencies, but they can task military assets and CAP. We're under their jurisdiction when it comes to that.

3. During large incidents, the responsibility may transfer to AFNSEP from AFRCC if 1st Air Force decides to do it, but the actual mission numbers are still generated by AFRCC because it is usually rescue assets that are tasked.

[afgeo4]

Being in Law Enforcement SAR, I can say with pretty good certainty that we dont do 90% of the nations SAR.  CAP has a couple other blurbs it likes to put out as well, such as stating that we were the first to provide photos of ground zero on 9/11.  Sorry, we were way behind the first photos and videos.

Who beat us for airborne photos?

NYPD's Bell 412EP Air Sea Rescue Helicopter provided the first photos.  They were on scene within minutes of the initial incident and provided photos and video of the incident as it unfolded and after.  Yes, of course, CAP was there much later and did do a service.  However, its a disservice to the NYPD officers who really did provide the first images to suggest otherwise.  I would do the same if Law Enforcement was taking credit for something significant that CAP accomplished.  This is how history gets distorted.

Right... well knowing the guys of the NYPD Aviation Unit quite well (my CAP unit is located in the same place ast they are) and having worked with them in the past, I can tell you that what pictures they took didn't make it up to Albany or Washington for a LONG, LOOOOOONG time. The city tends to keep their info to themselves. It's a fight for resources issue. Sort of... "I spent my money on this, so I keep it. You want to have it? Pay me or do it yourself."

The photos that CAP took were done by direct request of FEMA and NYS SEMO and Gov Pataki's office.

We weren't the first aircraft up over the site. We were the first civilian aircraft over the site (NYPD in this case isn't civilian). I also don't know if the NYPD did take photo shots of ground zero. None that I've seen released in press. I know that Aviation was overtasked following. They only had two 412s and I believe 4 Rangers/Long Rangers back then and they had to patrol the airports, bridges, Manhattan and other sensitive sites. They now operate 3 Bell 412s (two for Air/Sea Rescue, 1 for counter-terrorism) and a few Augusta Koalas for regular patrol duties and light Air/Sea Rescue.

[O-Rex]

A CAP aircraft was circling ground zero at the request of  Gov. Pitaki on 9/12  It was the first civilian aircraft to fly over the site and take pictures.  The pictures show ground zero to still be smoldering from the fires and explosions.  CNN was the first news agency to report this fact and was picked up later by many other agencies.  The aircrew was given a commendation from Gen Bowling and there is a painting of the sortie at NHQ.  Prints have been given out to members for the last 7 years.  

Let's take the kudos where we can get them.

For those who see the glass "half-empty," being inside the organization, sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees: take a step back, or outside of CAP, and you may find that we really do make a difference.  Can you put a price tag on one human life?  If we save only one person, then I think our efforts across the nation are truly worth it.

As for the CAP 9-11 painting, there are times when we 'guild the lily' in the name of history.  I recall another iconic painting of George Washington striking a rather regal pose crossing the Delaware River.  I hardly think that the picture was accurate, and please keep in mind that he and his troops were making movement-to-contact to what was by today's tactical definition a guerrilla raid against the Hessian Garrison.

If you could travel back through time, you would probably find that many pivotal historical moments were not as spectacular as portrayed throughout the years.

History is 'collective memory'  most of our 'mature' members will agree that memories, like wine, mellow and may get a bit fuzzy over time: what remains is the spirit of our deeds rather than the details.

[Pumbaa]

Let's take the kudos where we can get them.

You mean you don't want the naysayers to rag on CAP?  How un-CAPTalkish of you!

[wingnut55]

naysayers


We need to spend less time patting ourselves on the back and more time becoming a team member of the SAR community. I am a very active member of CAP over 300 hours of flight time in 3 years, from Fossett, CD, to Archer. I am a big supporter of our members, However, when I see airbrushed photographs being released as news, and I watch PAOs on national TV talking out their %&#, I question some peoples motives and lack of professionalism.

We have a history steeped in bravery and support of our nation. Many CAP members have died doing the mission. We are disrespectful of their legacy by being false and blow hards. CAP NHQ needs to lead the nations CAP membership.