How to encourage/require cadet executive staff to attend Wing activities

Started by xray328, August 10, 2015, 05:18:43 PM

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xray328

Sure does and I can tell you're squadron is very fortunate to have you.

In regards to soccer, his team last year had practices on our meeting night. He'd leave early and change in the car on the way over. He wants to attend the USAFA so it got to the point that we needed to focus more on what's going to get him in there versus what's not. It's a D1 school so odds are he won't play there. He's already playing Varsity soccer at school and running track (hoping Varsity there too before long) and that's what the academy wants to see versus travel soccer. So the compromise was that he's moving to a team closer to home that practices different days. He's in CAP mainly to gain leadership experience because sports don't allow him to join any clubs after school where he could get a leadership position in.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 12, 2015, 01:36:07 PM
I absolutely agree that a cadet has to go above and beyond to earn the position of C/CC.

I disagree here. A cadet should go above and beyond to earn the position of C/CC; however, in the real-world, that's not always the best available option.

If you have a smaller squadron, and not-so-experienced cadets available when the C/CC leaves, you may end up with someone who isn't preferable in that position, but that's what you have. This is when it becomes pertinent for Senior Members working with the cadets to step in and work alongside the C/CC to help coach them and build them up for the job. It becomes on-the-job training, since you aren't there to do the work for them. But you can act as a mentor and guide.

We used to have a C/Maj as our Cadet Commander a couple of years back. He left, and we ended up with a C/Capt. He left, and we ended up with a C/2dLt. He's leaving, and his replacement is a C/TSgt. Not the ideal scenario but this is what we have.

In the case where someone doesn't seem like they're a good fit for the position schedule-wise, you might need to sit down with this individual and talk with them about their options. Don't give them an ultimatum, but explain that it's a position in which you expect to see a lot of activity from them when it comes to being with the squadron for events. It involves a lot of face time and a lot of personal investment. And if they can't commit to that, you may need to find an alternative who can provide the leadership personality you need as well as the time to be that leader.

In the end, the cadets don't choose their Cadet Commander. The squadron commander does.

Eaker Guy

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 12, 2015, 02:21:30 PM
Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 12, 2015, 01:36:07 PM
I absolutely agree that a cadet has to go above and beyond to earn the position of C/CC.

I disagree here. A cadet should go above and beyond to earn the position of C/CC; however, in the real-world, that's not always the best available option.

If you have a smaller squadron, and not-so-experienced cadets available when the C/CC leaves, you may end up with someone who isn't preferable in that position, but that's what you have. This is when it becomes pertinent for Senior Members working with the cadets to step in and work alongside the C/CC to help coach them and build them up for the job. It becomes on-the-job training, since you aren't there to do the work for them. But you can act as a mentor and guide.

We used to have a C/Maj as our Cadet Commander a couple of years back. He left, and we ended up with a C/Capt. He left, and we ended up with a C/2dLt. He's leaving, and his replacement is a C/TSgt. Not the ideal scenario but this is what we have.

In the case where someone doesn't seem like they're a good fit for the position schedule-wise, you might need to sit down with this individual and talk with them about their options. Don't give them an ultimatum, but explain that it's a position in which you expect to see a lot of activity from them when it comes to being with the squadron for events. It involves a lot of face time and a lot of personal investment. And if they can't commit to that, you may need to find an alternative who can provide the leadership personality you need as well as the time to be that leader.

In the end, the cadets don't choose their Cadet Commander. The squadron commander does.

What you say makes sense. To add onto it, your C/TSgt is already going above and beyond by performing a highly experienced officer's duties, so there it is. Excellence in all we do!

xray328


foo

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 12, 2015, 02:21:30 PM
Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 12, 2015, 01:36:07 PM
I absolutely agree that a cadet has to go above and beyond to earn the position of C/CC.

I disagree here. A cadet should go above and beyond to earn the position of C/CC; however, in the real-world, that's not always the best available option.

If you have a smaller squadron, and not-so-experienced cadets available when the C/CC leaves, you may end up with someone who isn't preferable in that position, but that's what you have. This is when it becomes pertinent for Senior Members working with the cadets to step in and work alongside the C/CC to help coach them and build them up for the job. It becomes on-the-job training, since you aren't there to do the work for them. But you can act as a mentor and guide.

We used to have a C/Maj as our Cadet Commander a couple of years back. He left, and we ended up with a C/Capt. He left, and we ended up with a C/2dLt. He's leaving, and his replacement is a C/TSgt. Not the ideal scenario but this is what we have.

In the case where someone doesn't seem like they're a good fit for the position schedule-wise, you might need to sit down with this individual and talk with them about their options. Don't give them an ultimatum, but explain that it's a position in which you expect to see a lot of activity from them when it comes to being with the squadron for events. It involves a lot of face time and a lot of personal investment. And if they can't commit to that, you may need to find an alternative who can provide the leadership personality you need as well as the time to be that leader.

In the end, the cadets don't choose their Cadet Commander. The squadron commander does.

In your situation you might want to consider leaving the C/CC position vacant until cadets achieve rank "commensurate with the position." See "Tailoring the Challenge" in the Cadet Staff Handbook (52-15). My unit is very light on cadet officers, and having only a C/First Sergeant has worked well for us.

Eaker Guy

Quote from: neummy on August 12, 2015, 03:36:18 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 12, 2015, 02:21:30 PM
Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 12, 2015, 01:36:07 PM
I absolutely agree that a cadet has to go above and beyond to earn the position of C/CC.

I disagree here. A cadet should go above and beyond to earn the position of C/CC; however, in the real-world, that's not always the best available option.

If you have a smaller squadron, and not-so-experienced cadets available when the C/CC leaves, you may end up with someone who isn't preferable in that position, but that's what you have. This is when it becomes pertinent for Senior Members working with the cadets to step in and work alongside the C/CC to help coach them and build them up for the job. It becomes on-the-job training, since you aren't there to do the work for them. But you can act as a mentor and guide.

We used to have a C/Maj as our Cadet Commander a couple of years back. He left, and we ended up with a C/Capt. He left, and we ended up with a C/2dLt. He's leaving, and his replacement is a C/TSgt. Not the ideal scenario but this is what we have.

In the case where someone doesn't seem like they're a good fit for the position schedule-wise, you might need to sit down with this individual and talk with them about their options. Don't give them an ultimatum, but explain that it's a position in which you expect to see a lot of activity from them when it comes to being with the squadron for events. It involves a lot of face time and a lot of personal investment. And if they can't commit to that, you may need to find an alternative who can provide the leadership personality you need as well as the time to be that leader.

In the end, the cadets don't choose their Cadet Commander. The squadron commander does.

In your situation you might want to consider leaving the C/CC position vacant until cadets achieve rank "commensurate with the position." See "Tailoring the Challenge" in the Cadet Staff Handbook (52-15). My unit is very light on cadet officers, and having only a C/First Sergeant has worked well for us.

I was thinking the same thing.


Eaker Guy

Quote from: xray328 on August 12, 2015, 02:08:29 PM
Sure does and I can tell you're squadron is very fortunate to have you.

In regards to soccer, his team last year had practices on our meeting night. He'd leave early and change in the car on the way over. He wants to attend the USAFA so it got to the point that we needed to focus more on what's going to get him in there versus what's not. It's a D1 school so odds are he won't play there. He's already playing Varsity soccer at school and running track (hoping Varsity there too before long) and that's what the academy wants to see versus travel soccer. So the compromise was that he's moving to a team closer to home that practices different days. He's in CAP mainly to gain leadership experience because sports don't allow him to join any clubs after school where he could get a leadership position in.

First of all, thanks for the compliment! :)

That and the academy loves CAP cadets!

TheSkyHornet

I'm not too concerned with a C/TSgt stepping up to the challenge. Our only C/MSgt, the brother of the departing Cadet Commandet, didn't want the position just yet as he felt he still had some work to do on himself.

Leadership is not just about taking the courses, but also identifying your own limitations and room for improvement. I think we will be fine with the way it's currently planned out. The important part is to make sure they have resources to go to when they struggle and need a bit of guidance, and those resources include having people they feel comfortable with when they have questions and concerns, not just regarding the job but also the progress of the squadron as a whole.

The cadets are just starting to get used to the new structure of their command. The next step will be working on the top-level leadership and helping them bring oversight and subsequent training (especially on-the-job) to their upper-tier subordinates. They have a lot of experience when it comes to the encampment and squadron-level leadership, but they need to work on conveying their abilities and adapting them to teaching others, not just repeating what they know.

Adaptive leadership is one of the hardest things, not so much to teach, but to perfect for yourself.

Майор Хаткевич

The idea behind the "tailored" structure is to give cadets a chance to be cadets, at the level they are.

If my highest ranking cadet is a C/TSgt, then we're going to have a Flight with him as the Flight Sergeant.

He gets to C/SMSgt, and there's two C/SSgts? Break it up, with two flights and flight sergeants and the C/SMSgt as the C/First Sergeant.

Got the Mitchell? Great! Welcome to the Flight Commander Model, with one of the NCOs becoming the First Shirt.

Etc, etc.

Under the "olde" and broken system, what's that C/MSgt to do after he's been the C/CC and tops out at his Mitchell having already "done" the top job?

It gives the cadets an idea of the structure, and the flow of promotions = positions.

Spam

Skyhornet:

Putting a C/NCO in as "Cadet Commander" is breaking the program, no matter how motivated the individual is.

You're doing him, and his fellows, a disservice by accepting this. With respect, sir, from my point of view, your narrative seems to indicate that your unit has accepted a gradual erosion of expectations, and deviation from the cadet program of record, in terms of appointing C/CCs, which might have contributed to your current situation.


Strongly recommend that you revisit CAPM 20-1 and cadet staff guide position descriptions, redesignate this cadet as NCOIC (Flight SGT, not Flight Commander, which is a cadet officer billet) chartered with grade-appropriate direct leadership tasks, and have a staff meeting among the senior member CP staff to reassume all the indirect leadership tasks normally performed by functioning cadet officers (the goal-setting, planning, scheduling cycle, the metrics tracking process, and the mentoring and counseling thereof).  Your long-term program will benefit, and short term your ranking cadets will be able to excel where they are (as C/NCOs) and will be able to understudy and observe the officership you and your fellow officer staff will model for him/her.


You stated that you "used to have a C/Maj as our Cadet Commander a couple of years back. He left, and we ended up with a C/Capt. He left, and we ended up with a C/2dLt. He's leaving, and his replacement is a C/TSgt. Not the ideal scenario but this is what we have".  That, frankly, speaks volumes to me.

If you can accept that you are headed the wrong way, that's the first step to reexamining fixing your business. Best wishes to you as a new CDC.


V/R,
Spam








TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Spam on August 14, 2015, 07:34:50 AM
Skyhornet:

Putting a C/NCO in as "Cadet Commander" is breaking the program, no matter how motivated the individual is.

You're doing him, and his fellows, a disservice by accepting this. With respect, sir, from my point of view, your narrative seems to indicate that your unit has accepted a gradual erosion of expectations, and deviation from the cadet program of record, in terms of appointing C/CCs, which might have contributed to your current situation.


Strongly recommend that you revisit CAPM 20-1 and cadet staff guide position descriptions, redesignate this cadet as NCOIC (Flight SGT, not Flight Commander, which is a cadet officer billet) chartered with grade-appropriate direct leadership tasks, and have a staff meeting among the senior member CP staff to reassume all the indirect leadership tasks normally performed by functioning cadet officers (the goal-setting, planning, scheduling cycle, the metrics tracking process, and the mentoring and counseling thereof).  Your long-term program will benefit, and short term your ranking cadets will be able to excel where they are (as C/NCOs) and will be able to understudy and observe the officership you and your fellow officer staff will model for him/her.


You stated that you "used to have a C/Maj as our Cadet Commander a couple of years back. He left, and we ended up with a C/Capt. He left, and we ended up with a C/2dLt. He's leaving, and his replacement is a C/TSgt. Not the ideal scenario but this is what we have".  That, frankly, speaks volumes to me.

If you can accept that you are headed the wrong way, that's the first step to reexamining fixing your business. Best wishes to you as a new CDC.


V/R,
Spam

First and foremast, I'm responsible for providing mentoring and guidance to the cadets, as well as helping them with cadet activities. I am not an acting CDC We don't have one. She recently departed CAP after letting her membership expire, having been absent from active participation with the squadron for several months. The squadron commander currently holds that responsibility, and, based on the regs, has the final say as to the structure and appointment of positions in the cadet component of the squadron. It isn't my ultimate decision, nor my responsibility to dictate what positions they nominate someone for and who the squadron commander approved to be Cadet Commander.

I've only been with the squadron, as an official member, since April. I had been poking around the squadron since March, but not a whole lot of insight into the history of the squadron prior to me being there. So, I don't know what issues they had in the past on the cadet side other than what I was told by the cadets regarding the previous CDC. Apparently, there was an ongoing issue. I don't have the full details as to what the issues were, so I can't correct all of them. I can go off existing knowledge and try to start with a clean slate. Once I get into the CDC role, I'll have a better opportunity to address the cadet command structure.

Like I said, a C/TSgt, to me, isn't an ideal person to have as Cadet Commander. But there isn't any authority on me to change the commander's decision. I should also mention that the C/TSgt in reference here is the son of the Deputy Commander for Seniors. Nepotism? I wouldn't go that far, but it could be contributing. Now, he has been under the wing as First Sergeant under the departing Cadet Commander, so I think he has enough insight into the position. The exiting Cadet Commander's younger brother is actually a C/MSgt, but he declined the position because he felt he wasn't ready.

When I joined the squadron, I spent a lot of time observing, and realizing how much work these guys and gals really needed, not just with the on-paper stuff like drill, but as developing leaders. The commander recognized this, as did the other Seniors, but they seemed to not have much confidence in themselves to help fix it. It's a work-in-progress, and I'm using the resources I have available to get there. There's been a bit of pushback on some things, and it takes a lot of time, but we're slowly getting there. I still have some road blocks in my way regarding my ability to actually make the call on some things, even when I make recommendations, so that's something to work on from the Senior side.

The squadron commander said get a new Cadet Commander. The cadets did just that. I might not agree with it in its entirety, but what I can do is work with those individuals assuming new leadership positions in the cadet corps and work with them so that they can do the job. Hopefully, by the time we need a new Cadet Commander when this one graduates high school in a few years, we'll have some much higher-grade cadet officers to help take on even greater leadership roles with a larger cadet unit.

This was the challenge I was presented with, and it came with certain barriers. I'm doing what I can under these circumstances.

Eaker Guy

Skyhornet:

My opinion differs slightly from our esteemed colleague Spam, but I think we both agree that assigning a C/TSgt to C/CC duties is a bit much. However, unlike Spam, I do think he could serve as a Flight Commander, if he is ready. You could then assign the C/MSgt as the flight sergeant. I don't know about the other cadets, but from the way you sounded these are you two ranking cadets. I don't know how many cadets you have, but I am a C/CC of around 15-20 active cadets. I'm telling you, it is very, very, very hard. Unless this C/TSgt possess superhuman leadership skills, it may be wise to wait until a more opportune time rolls around. If you do indeed assign the C/TSgt to Flight Commander, have him take a look at the duties of a Flight Commander and ask him/her to seriously think about his fitness for the task. If he/she says "yes, I can do it," then do it. Simple, no?

I don't completely agree with Capt Hatkevich with regards to assigning cadets based solely on grade, although in a perfect world that is what it would look like. I've seen a couple cadets buy into the "promotions = positions" model, and because of their constant drive to promote, promote, promote, they loose focus of their current duties on their way to the top, only to realize that they haven't gained enough experience to do the top job. :(

BTW I don't have a problem with a C/2d Lt as a C/CC, as long as he could do the job and learned from the experience!

Best wishes,

C/Maj Kiss, CAP

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 14, 2015, 01:58:43 PM
Skyhornet:

My opinion differs slightly from our esteemed colleague Spam, but I think we both agree that assigning a C/TSgt to C/CC duties is a bit much. However, unlike Spam, I do think he could serve as a Flight Commander, if he is ready. You could then assign the C/MSgt as the flight sergeant. I don't know about the other cadets, but from the way you sounded these are you two ranking cadets. I don't know how many cadets you have, but I am a C/CC of around 15-20 active cadets. I'm telling you, it is very, very, very hard. Unless this C/TSgt possess superhuman leadership skills, it may be wise to wait until a more opportune time rolls around. If you do indeed assign the C/TSgt to Flight Commander, have him take a look at the duties of a Flight Commander and ask him/her to seriously think about his fitness for the task. If he/she says "yes, I can do it," then do it. Simple, no?

I don't completely agree with Capt Hatkevich with regards to assigning cadets based solely on grade, although in a perfect world that is what it would look like. I've seen a couple cadets buy into the "promotions = positions" model, and because of their constant drive to promote, promote, promote, they loose focus of their current duties on their way to the top, only to realize that they haven't gained enough experience to do the top job. :(

BTW I don't have a problem with a C/2d Lt as a C/CC, as long as he could do the job and learned from the experience!

Best wishes,

C/Maj Kiss, CAP

Keep in mind, I'm not assigning anyone to anything. I don't have that authority, myself.

But, the cadets did ask me to sit with them to help with the restructure, the way the commander approved it, and I did what I could to coach them with a system I think would work better than what they originally had drawn up. It's slowly kicking in and we're starting to see some positive results, but it will take time.

The C/MSgt is indeed the First Sergeant now, and we have another C/TSgt as a Flight Commander, and a C/SSgt as a Training Flight Commander for newbies and those needed some extra practice with drill.

For me, it was extremely preferable to have our C/LtCol stay on as C/CC. I'm not sure what happened entirely in the past, but he had a falling out with the then-CDC and walked out. He came back about a year later and couldn't assume his former role, which was already filled by the CDC's son, who left because of school. The CDC then made the recommendation that the C/LtCol shouldn't resume the role as C/CC, and it was handed off to a C/2dLt. So you can see the systemic leadership failure here that led to this whole debacle. Now that the C/2dLt and C/LtCol are going off to college this month, we lost two very active cadet officers who really went out of their way to act as such.

Like I said, the C/TSgt assuming the position of C/CC is the squadron Deputy Commander's son, so you can see how that plays out. I'm confident he can do the job with some assistance, and I'll do my best to work with him over the next few months on-the-side so that he and the C/MSgt can be run things on their own. I think it will be fine, but it's not an overnight switch.

I'd love to have things my way. But not only do I not run the cadet command as a cadet, I don't run it as a Senior, nor do I have the decision under my power to take charge on the matter. As a Senior Member, I'm still required to follow the orders I receive from my commander.

But I appreciate the feedback, especially from cadet officers on this subject. And xray, I hope I didn't steal your thread here ;)

Tim Day

I've had great success following the suggestions in the cadet staff handbook and configuring the cadet leadership structure according to the grades of the cadets in my unit. Leaving the C/CC position unfilled until we had a C/Capt wasn't popular, but worked out really well for the cadets and our squadron's program.

Tim Day
Lt Col CAP
Prince William Composite Squadron Commander

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Tim Day on August 14, 2015, 05:57:25 PM
I've had great success following the suggestions in the cadet staff handbook and configuring the cadet leadership structure according to the grades of the cadets in my unit. Leaving the C/CC position unfilled until we had a C/Capt wasn't popular, but worked out really well for the cadets and our squadron's program.

Don't disagree at all there. There's a subculture mindset in the squadron that they can take anyone, no matter how inexperienced, and build him/her up to be on top, which is true, but that's exactly why you have training and promotions associated for the amount of time in and the amount of training logged. To build someone's experience, you provide training until they have the time-in-grade, skill set, and overall knowledge appropriate to be at that level of service. This is why a chain of command is structured around a certain rank/grade expectation.

One of the biggest issues you see in an organization is the ability to downsize the organization to compensate for manpower and expertise. Maybe someone shouldn't be a manager with absolute authority until they have served as a supervisor and have received enough training and experience to become the manager, director, and so on.

But in my own case, this is what I was handed. It isn't popular on my end. I've said my concerns, and I've received the feedback. It's time to move on and accept that my opinion wasn't regarded as the majority's, so I have to go with the situation as it exists.

The squadron wants a C/CC, and is willing to accept a C/TSgt in that role. The Chain of Command approves of it. So, I'll do what I can to make it work, and if it doesn't, we'll go from there, planning in advance enough to have a secondary work-around if necessary.

One thing I do like is that the exiting C/CC and the new C/CC sat down together and wrote up, together, a set of duties and responsibilities for each position in the cadet chain of command. So at least everyone knows what their job entails. Now it's a matter of executing, supervising, and reviewing.

Spam

Skyhornet (and xray),

Could I suggest that perhaps both of your situations would be excellent discussion topics for you to take with you to a TLC (Training Leaders of Cadets) class, as a sort of "leadership retreat" for your staff? Your issues are absolutely on target perfect for TLC discussions.

There's a "critical mass" effect when you get a bunch of CP people together in a loosely structured environment to work through cadet staffing and manning and advancement issues like these, and that's what TLC is for - it is in the curriculum.  I've seen teams from the same unit come into the TLCs I've taught with very similar issues, mull them over quietly together in a corner, ask for and debate different points, and arrive at solutions they'd never thought of before that worked out very well for their home units.


Sky, two other quick points: 1. whether a cadet subjectively "thinks" he can do a job isn't material to whether he is empirically ready to abandon his progress mid point through direct leadership training to take on the most senior indirect leader position possible, thus supervising other cadets in what he hasn't himself accomplished. 2. Apparently term limits and progression haven't been part of your units consideration, if your new C/TSGT is being installed for a couple of years as you say, so I'd again strongly suggest to take your CC with you to TLC to read through these parts of the program.


And finally, C/Maj Kiss, good on you for disagreeing with me. This is just the place for it!


V/R,
Spam



Eaker Guy


xray328

That's a great idea Spam, will do.  I was wanting to get to one of those anyway.

Spam

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on August 15, 2015, 12:34:49 PM
Spam,

I didn't disagree, I just didn't completely agree. :)


Oh, good Lord, you're headed for JAG duty some day, aren't you?


Cheers,
Spam