2024 Winter Command Council

Started by UWONGO2, March 02, 2024, 02:16:32 PM

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UWONGO2

Hopefully others can share what they've seen because the winter command council meetings involved a number of breakout sessions which means I'm not getting to see everything. Here are some notes from day 1:

The new(ish) commander of CAP-USAF is a great speaker. Col Aaron Reid is a former cadet who gives CAP great credit for what he has achieved in life. We also learned writing a message on a bomb that you deliver to its recipient later is against USAF regulations.

Col John Longley, the chair of the Board of Governors (BOG) gave an overview of what the BOG is and what they do. He essentially stressed it's the BOG that sets the direction of CAP and that they are working hard to do so.

CMSgt Todd Parsons is CAP's command chief. Rocking his new uniform insignia that was approved by the Air Force just for him, he explained he's CAP's chief people person.

Maj Gen Ed Phelka gave an update that was pretty upbeat and full of good news. He's a great speaker as well, he talked about membership numbers, successes CAP has had, and spent some time about how CAP should do better on new member screening. Having the right member is important, we have allowed toxic people to join who cause significant problems. He also has a teenager in CAP, which I figure is a good thing for the head person to hear how the cadet program is going directly from a participant.

Mr. Ron Olienyk, Director of Operations gave a status update on USAF/CAP evaluations. He talked about A5 vs A12 sorties and showed a statistical analysis shows as proficiency flights go up, incidents go down. Also gave an update that ICLs coming out and an update to CAPR 35-6 that's coming out.

Mr. John Desmarais, COO, gave an update on national staff being re-aligned and their plans to add a significant number of new positions at HQ. CAP keeps adding programs but not people to manage them (or people to manage all the new people). Being national employee day, he invited all the paid staff that is at the meeting to come up front and be recognized.

Col Garrett (I missed his first name) is part of the NHQ legal team. Currently commanders are responsible for suspending members when background checks reveal problematic incidents, yet per our rules, the commanders are not told what those problematic incidents are. NHQ has developed essentially a template that commanders can use in this situations since commanders didn't really know what to say since they didn't even know why they were suspending the member. It was vetted by legal, MAC, personnel, and the BOG.

Col Andrea Van Buren, missed her job title, is leading a working group on reducing senior work loads by evaluating processes and looking for how they can make the job easier.

I missed the name, but there was an update on how CAP feels cadet's medications need to be managed by CAP but are still working through the legal issues to determine how to best do that.

There was a briefing about compliance issues that CAP-USAF brought up and how CAP is responding.

Col Jason Bailey gave an update on Hawk Mountain. He stressed that people often refer to "Hawk Mountain" collectively, but it's really two separate things, the facility and the NCSA that's held at the facility. The facility is going through some work right know where they've put a pause on the NCSA, but they are still using the camp for other activities.

(I did miss a few things above, hopefully others can fill in what I missed)

There were a bunch of breakouts, in true CAPTALK fashion I suspected the one on uniforms was the most important topic being covered. The current and several past uniform board chairs were there. It was explained that a package has been submitted to the USAF requesting authorization for CAP to wear the OCP uniform with tan boots and the option to sew or use velcro with name/CAP tapes. There is no estimate as to when the USAF will approve or deny the request (apparently the USAF is a bit busy with more important matters). If the USAF requests changes to better differentiate CAP members from USAF members then it will take even longer. Also it was approved that military ribbons will be allowed on the white aviator shirt.

I missed some presentations, but next I saw a legal officer talking about what they do, what commanders should be relying on the legal officers more, and talked about how to better integrate legal officers into a wing's daily operations. He was a great speaker.

Ms. Kathy Conyers and Lt Col David Dlugiewicz provided a demonstration of a online version of the paper CAPF 37 that allows you to use a phone to scan a barcode and temporarily pass the item along to someone until the item is returned (say at encampment). It was built in the new Mendix "D2R" environment that provides greater data access over CAPWATCH. They are starting to work on their next pilot project before turning Mendix loose on the membership.

Ms. Conyers then provided a demo of the upcoming update to Registration Zone that includes accepting payments. A member of the cadet programs team then provided a fantastic live demo.

That's what I had down for notes for day one. Sorry for any errors or omissions.

UWONGO2

Ok, part 2 from Saturday:

Mr. Curt LaFond – Before stepping on stage, MGen Phelka essentially admonished the gathered commanders from slinging arrows at Mr. LaFond and essentially ordered everyone to be cordial. Mr LaFond provided several real-world stories and why we need additional requirements and protocols to reduce the potential for cadet abuse as much as possible. A new point system for boundary concerns and adult to cadet ratios are the big changes.

Mr. Michael Nunemaker – safety trends. The importance of stabilized approaches. Proficiency is extremely important.  The military saw an increase in accidents, allocated more money for proficiency. CAP did the same thing and saw statistical correlation between proficiency and incidents. Need more flight instructors. Tires take a lot of abuse. When a tire fails, it's rarely the tire's fault, it's everything that happened to that tire prior to its failure. Need to report damage and incidents.

Number one source of damage for vehicles is backing up. Vans backing up is the biggest issue. Backed into a person putting a child into a car two years ago (fortunately no injuries). Park where you don't need to back up, use spotters, have situational awareness of what is around (and above when you have antennas) the vehicle.

Trips, falls, ankle sprains all common stuff. Really worried about anything with LOC as it tends to leads to injuries. Usually dehydration, sometimes medication related. Bone fractures seeing an increase, it may be because we're reporting it better now. Usually sports related, some of which are high-impact (sharks & minnows) and consideration should be made if they are appropriate. Food allergies are the greatest concern, two very serious incidents that hospitalized cadets.

Looking at how data from G1000 can be analyzed for trend analysis for engine issues.

Suggestion from the crowd for a AMRAD for vans, we don't currently track vehicle readiness very well.

Suggestion from the crowd to add backup cameras. Safety had already considered that, apparently the data shows from the insurance industry that there is about a 12% reduction in issues, which wasn't apparently enough for the expense.

Gen Phelka – Talked about a proficiency  flight he did with CAP-USAF and the skills he learned was used a short time later when he had an engine fail at 900 feet. Data analysis of vehicles incidents show it's the operator that's the problem, not the vehicle. Added changes to reg about duty rest, zero BAC, etc.

Mandatory reporting – Driving privileges by reg are suspended after certain incidents (that are to be reported to NHQ). Cooperative agreement has some mandatory reporting requirements such as allegations of abuse, felonies, etc. Now a 7 day waiting period from when CAP decides to re-instate someone so that CAP-USAF can review that decision. Bent metal has to be reported to CAP-USAF. Cadets who threaten self harm have to be reported to NHQ. When in doubt, call the NOC. Issues with stuff not being reported to NHQ which is a problem when CAP-USAF is supposed to be notified.

Mr. Jared Peregoy – New LMS demonstration. Moving from AXIS to Absorb. Since 2019 there have been over a million modules have been completed. 752K in the last two years and 10 months. The increase in membership with all the new-member training being consolidated online driving that increase. About 45K unique users a year. More working on levels 1 & 2 then rest combined.

Jan-Feb: Migrating courses to new system. Mar-Apr: start webinars and user training. Apr-May: AXIS sunsetting and pre-launch start. June: Launch Absorb.

Will not have to join cohort to complete moderated modules. Will support virtual in-residence modules. More curated experience, only see pertinent modules (like cadets don't need to see senior member training). Fewer clicks to get to stuff.

Break out sessions on various topics were held, the ops session was how there are three working groups that are currently evaluating all SQTRs and determining which ones need to go, which ones should stay, which ones should be modified, and what new tasks are needed. They said the last time they did this it took 5 years so nobody was offering estimates for how long it would take this time.

NHQ decided about 3 days ago that they will be building a replacement of WMIRS (not an upgrade to WMIRS). It will be a from-scratch creation and involve input from volunteers, OPRs, and CAP-USAF. They haven't started putting a list of names together for the working group the decision was so fresh.

Paul Creed III

Thank you very much for this debrief!!
Lt Col Paul Creed III, CAP

ML07

Thanks for the breakdown, super interesting.

I'm curious how migrating from AXIS to Absorb will affect interactive. A large amount of cadets in my squadron struggle to use it already.

HandsomeWalt_USMC

Be interesting to see if the mil ribbons on corporates carries on to mil badges on BBDUs too. I wouldn't mind tossing my wings on my BlueDUs.
HANDSOME SENDS

Semper Fidelis

"PRIDE IS CONTAGIOUS"

Stonewall

Quote from: HandsomeWalt_USMC on March 03, 2024, 09:20:36 PMBe interesting to see if the mil ribbons on corporates carries on to mil badges on BBDUs too. I wouldn't mind tossing my wings on my BlueDUs.

That question was asked and answered, however, not specific to BBDUs, but corporates in general.

"Any military awards and badges earned through military service  may be worn."

Remember, it was stated they this is APPROVED but NOT PUBLISHED as 1 March.
Serving since 1987.

HandsomeWalt_USMC

Quote from: Stonewall on March 03, 2024, 10:03:03 PM
Quote from: HandsomeWalt_USMC on March 03, 2024, 09:20:36 PMBe interesting to see if the mil ribbons on corporates carries on to mil badges on BBDUs too. I wouldn't mind tossing my wings on my BlueDUs.

That question was asked and answered, however, not specific to BBDUs, but corporates in general.

"Any military awards and badges earned through military service  may be worn."

Remember, it was stated they this is APPROVED but NOT PUBLISHED as 1 March.


I'll wait for an ICL or at least a verbal okay from my Wg/CC to toss mine on then. Thanks!
HANDSOME SENDS

Semper Fidelis

"PRIDE IS CONTAGIOUS"

heliodoc

NHQ decided about 3 days ago that they will be building a replacement of WMIRS (not an upgrade to WMIRS). It will be a from-scratch creation and involve input from volunteers, OPRs, and CAP-USAF. They haven't started putting a list of names together for the working group the decision was so fresh.

Niiiiiice

Now to learn WMIRS and the new "AXIS" all over again

Reminds me of the Army getting rid of AKO accounts and now getting rid of/ learning new on line education

What? WMIRS and AXIS not working properly?   Took awhile in my AOR on how to use it or more like self taught and maybe get "beat up" once n while on how wrong one was in entries

Hope there's a funded study on both WMIRS and AXIS and maybe surveys on customer satisfaction in the future on these "new fangled" "user friendly" systems

Standing by for gnashing of teeth and mentioning success rates of cadets and seniors having to "advance" in the world of CAP IT

ML07

Quote from: heliodoc on March 04, 2024, 02:17:48 AMWhat? WMIRS and AXIS not working properly? 

Isn't AXIS still relatively new as well; 2019/2020 rollout if I remember correctly? As for WMIRS, it's kinda over due in my humble opinion. As a frequent user, I think it works great, but training new users can be difficult because some features, such as uploading vehicle fuel receipts, are not very intuitive. For some, it is, and that's great. Recently, I had to take care of all of the mission reimbursements for a GT tasking because none of the SMs knew how to use it, one was a GTL...

heliodoc

My point exactly...training next to nil UNLESS ya sit for 120 hours self teaching self inflicting

Before anyone suggest going to a Region charm school for this...CAP might want to get a gaggle of IT gurus in those nearly little used Mahindra/ Gipps GA8s and puts on Wing wide shows

PHall

AXIS has been a train wreck from the start and there have been many complaints mostly that it is NOT user friendly at all. One of the biggest problems we have with new cadets is teaching them how to use this pos program.

NIN

Part of the problem with Axis was substantially structural: its not designed as a true "learning management system" like, say, Blackboard or Moodle (two older systems that are used in higher ed). Axis is more  "corporate training system," like "OK, time do to your annual cyber refresher" or "Its March, its Ladder Safety Month!"

It wasn't really designed as full-on "courseware."

Also, getting data from Axis pushed back in to eServices in a format that was usable to that system required some periodic ETL processes.  Having done that sort of thing in my day job, built a function to grab one kind of data out of a system, massage it, and push it into another system, I'm guessing that it wasn't pretty and probably required a lot of "help."

I'm led to believe that Absorb is much more of a true LMS with "courses" and "lessons" and more segmentation.

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude, National Bubba
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Shuman 14

Quote from: Stonewall on March 03, 2024, 10:03:03 PMThat question was asked and answered, however, not specific to BBDUs, but corporates in general.

"Any military awards and badges earned through military service  may be worn."

Remember, it was stated they this is APPROVED but NOT PUBLISHED as 1 March.


Well, it took them long enough to figure that one out. That being said, EXCELLENT answer to a longtime issue for Veteran CAP members that cannot, or choose not to, wear USAF-style uniforms.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

GroundHawg

Quote from: NIN on March 04, 2024, 03:31:17 PMPart of the problem with Axis was substantially structural: its not designed as a true "learning management system" like, say, Blackboard or Moodle (two older systems that are used in higher ed). Axis is more  "corporate training system," like "OK, time do to your annual cyber refresher" or "Its March, its Ladder Safety Month!"

It wasn't really designed as full-on "courseware."

Also, getting data from Axis pushed back in to eServices in a format that was usable to that system required some periodic ETL processes.  Having done that sort of thing in my day job, built a function to grab one kind of data out of a system, massage it, and push it into another system, I'm guessing that it wasn't pretty and probably required a lot of "help."

I'm led to believe that Absorb is much more of a true LMS with "courses" and "lessons" and more segmentation.



Why dont we just use blackboard then? The whole "if it isnt broke dont fix it" and "dont try to reinvent the wheel" thing comes to mind. I assume its licensing fees?

Eclipse

Quote from: GroundHawg on March 06, 2024, 02:53:37 PMWhy dont we just use blackboard then?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here

NIH is sprayed weekly throughout the building at NHQ.






"That Others May Zoom"

Fubar

Quote from: GroundHawg on March 06, 2024, 02:53:37 PMWhy dont we just use blackboard then? The whole "if it isnt broke dont fix it" and "dont try to reinvent the wheel" thing comes to mind. I assume its licensing fees?

I suspect when they decided to switch vendors they looked at Blackboard (now Anthology) among other options. Who knows why they picked this current vendor, I'm just glad they didn't decide to build it in-house.

I'm not sure how they can be accused of NIH syndrome, they literally are using something that wasn't invented there.

Eclipse

#16
Quote from: Fubar on March 06, 2024, 08:05:28 PMI'm not sure how they can be accused of NIH syndrome

In this case Blackboard would be the logical, mainstream choice, so it was dismissed out of hand
because one person in the room uses or used it at school and didn't like the font.

Also Absorb is a CANADIAN!!! Company that's AI DRIVEN!!! That makes them automatically better.

And there's no point in spending those tax dollars in the US when you can convert them to Loons and
lose 25% mailing the checks!

All speculation of course.

"That Others May Zoom"

SARDOC


NIN

Basically, yes, for what we'd use it for, Blackboard is very expensive. It's got a lot of bells and whistles that make sense in a higher education environment, but not our environment.  I only mentioned it because it's an LMS that a lot of people are familiar with.

And while maybe something Open Source like Moodle would make sense from an upfront cost standpoint, it probably doesn't make sense from an ongoing management standpoint. You have to tweak/fiddle with Moodle a lot and its susceptible to compromise differently than other commercially designed, hosted, and managed platforms. What you don't spend on "paying" for Moodle, you pay in "managing" Moodle. (We did, and I know)

Having spoken to Jared Peregoy a little bit about this in Seattle, Absorb was evaluated against a number of platforms and was the leading contender. They didn't just put all the names on a wall at HQ ands throw a dart at them to pick.

That it has some pretty robust API interfaces to exchange data more directly with eServices is a huge benefit.

(Note: I haven't seen how it works, so I can't tell you how much better it is than Axis, but frankly: almost anything is better than Axis...)

Some of you guys kill me:
"Axis sucks! I wish we had something better!"

Same guy, months/years later:
"Awwwgh, this is terrible! Why are we changing? CAP can't leave well enough alone!"

Then:

Quote from: Eclipse on March 07, 2024, 01:46:03 AM<snip>
In this case Blackboard would be the logical, mainstream choice, so it was dismissed out of hand
because one person in the room uses or used it at school and didn't like the font.

Also Absorb is a CANADIAN!!! Company that's AI DRIVEN!!! That makes them automatically better.

And there's no point in spending those tax dollars in the US when you can convert them to Loons and
lose 25% mailing the checks!

All speculation of course.

Come on, Bob. That was a terrible hack job, and nice way to bury the lede. Tell us how you really feel!

You literally make up three random statements, then say "All speculation of course."

Thats not how it works. If you hate CAP so darn much, dude, just go away. Why continue to be the top commentor on a forum board dedicated to an organization that you're not a member of anymore

I get it, you want to see CAP "do better". But you had your chance and elected to retire.  You're not going to be a "force for good" and instead are going to snipe from the cheap seats at the people still out on the field, in the game, trying to do good things. 

Its not helpful. Its destructive.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude, National Bubba
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

RiverAux

Just FYI, moodle is now the CG Aux's only online learning platform.  I was never quite sure why we had multiple systems, but the other one was just shut down due to security concerns.  Presumably they will be fixing and/or replacing it.

SARDOC

Quote from: heliodoc on March 04, 2024, 03:41:58 AMMy point exactly...training next to nil UNLESS ya sit for 120 hours self teaching self inflicting

Before anyone suggest going to a Region charm school for this...CAP might want to get a gaggle of IT gurus in those nearly little used Mahindra/ Gipps GA8s and puts on Wing wide shows

Speaking of which.  National has made the decision to retire the GA-8s by 2027.

ML07

Quote from: SARDOC on March 12, 2024, 11:31:34 AM
Quote from: heliodoc on March 04, 2024, 03:41:58 AMMy point exactly...training next to nil UNLESS ya sit for 120 hours self teaching self inflicting

Before anyone suggest going to a Region charm school for this...CAP might want to get a gaggle of IT gurus in those nearly little used Mahindra/ Gipps GA8s and puts on Wing wide shows


Speaking of which.  National has made the decision to retire the GA-8s by 2027.

Will there be any replacement for them?

Fubar

Quote from: ML07 on March 12, 2024, 05:55:04 PMWill there be any replacement for them?

Are there any missions for them? Not sarcasm, genuinely don't know.

jeders

Quote from: Fubar on March 12, 2024, 06:40:02 PM
Quote from: ML07 on March 12, 2024, 05:55:04 PMWill there be any replacement for them?

Are there any missions for them? Not sarcasm, genuinely don't know.

The only thing that comes to mind which can't be accomplished by other existing platforms would be transport. The current push seems to be using CAP personnel to help support blood drives, so moving large volumes of blood in a short time would be a good mission for them. Additionally, it was very helpful a few years ago, when a group of cadets enroute to NBB broke down on a highway in Illinois or Indiana, to be able to pick them up in the GA-8 used for static display at the CAP recruiting tent.

But, as transport missions requiring that lifting capacity are few and far between, there's likely not enough justification to keep the GA-8s around.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

ML07

Quote from: Fubar on March 12, 2024, 06:40:02 PM
Quote from: ML07 on March 12, 2024, 05:55:04 PMWill there be any replacement for them?

Are there any missions for them? Not sarcasm, genuinely don't know.

Neither do I. Since ARCHER has fallen under its own weight, unless their is some sort of airborne capability that requires more space than that provided with the remainder of the fleet, I can't imagine what they would be needed for except for niche edge-cases.

farsightusf2017

Quote from: Fubar on March 12, 2024, 06:40:02 PM
Quote from: ML07 on March 12, 2024, 05:55:04 PMWill there be any replacement for them?

Are there any missions for them? Not sarcasm, genuinely don't know.


You mean qualifying 3 scanners on one sortie isn't a mission?? *sarcasm*

Logistically they are a nightmare and with little gain to the organization. The 206 comes close in capability while maintaining similarities to the other types enough to not worry about how proficient one is in the GA8.

NIN

Quote from: farsightusf2017 on March 13, 2024, 02:14:17 PMLogistically they are a nightmare and with little gain to the organization.

from an analytics standpoint, the GA-8s fly more maintenance missions (A9) than others.

That right there should tell us all we need to know.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude, National Bubba
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

SARDOC

Quote from: Fubar on March 12, 2024, 06:40:02 PM
Quote from: ML07 on March 12, 2024, 05:55:04 PMWill there be any replacement for them?

Are there any missions for them? Not sarcasm, genuinely don't know.

No There are no plans to replace them

But, Yes, there is a mission for them.  Alaska uses them to transport people enough they have three of them.  Nevada uses it to transport people to a remote outlying field in support of Green Flag West.  I'm sure there are others but  those are the ones that I know of. 

SierraOneThree

Quote from: UWONGO2 on March 02, 2024, 02:16:32 PMAlso it was approved that military ribbons will be allowed on the white aviator shirt.

(ya welcome)

Kidding, kinda. Glad to see that made it through the gauntlet of things they slashed from our draft.

farsightusf2017

Quote from: SierraOneThree on April 02, 2024, 05:20:12 AM
Quote from: UWONGO2 on March 02, 2024, 02:16:32 PMAlso it was approved that military ribbons will be allowed on the white aviator shirt.

(ya welcome)

Kidding, kinda. Glad to see that made it through the gauntlet of things they slashed from our draft.



I'm curious what things were proposed that were cut?

Майор Хаткевич


NIN

Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on April 02, 2024, 04:54:54 PMThe digitals, probably. /s

"I would like the digitals."

"I want the green boots."

"The digitals."

Gosh I wish we still had that floating around.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude, National Bubba
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

SierraOneThree

Quote from: farsightusf2017 on April 02, 2024, 03:09:45 PMI'm curious what things were proposed that were cut?

2PFDUs for aircrew, I believe the flag patch being optional on the bag with optional HHQ patch instead a la ACC. I believe those two are the only ones I know for sure. Guess we'll see when it makes its way to our reddit front page the nanosecond it's published.

farsightusf2017

Quote from: SierraOneThree on April 03, 2024, 03:37:59 AM
Quote from: farsightusf2017 on April 02, 2024, 03:09:45 PMI'm curious what things were proposed that were cut?

2PFDUs for aircrew, I believe the flag patch being optional on the bag with optional HHQ patch instead a la ACC. I believe those two are the only ones I know for sure. Guess we'll see when it makes its way to our reddit front page the nanosecond it's published.


Don't get me wrong I'm not against 2PFDU although I don't see the benefit for us. I guess minus taking off the blouse when it's hot but at that point we should fly in ABUs/BBDU? Where as that option doesn't exist for those in MiLAV who have to wear the nomex and the 2 piece is great for the crew dogs.


SierraOneThree

Quote from: farsightusf2017 on April 04, 2024, 02:50:31 PMDon't get me wrong I'm not against 2PFDU although I don't see the benefit for us. I guess minus taking off the blouse when it's hot but at that point we should fly in ABUs/BBDU? Where as that option doesn't exist for those in MiLAV who have to wear the nomex and the 2 piece is great for the crew dogs.

It was mainly one of those we were trying to future-proof, and allow AF/Army aircrews who had them issued be able to wear them to CAP as well as anyone who wanted to get them. It's a very different fabric from the standard OCPs, much more comfortable for general usage, for meetings and staff jobs, etc. I was hoping to not have to blouse my boots, but I guess I'll just stick with the green nomies.

PHall

Quote from: SierraOneThree on April 05, 2024, 03:30:31 AM
Quote from: farsightusf2017 on April 04, 2024, 02:50:31 PMDon't get me wrong I'm not against 2PFDU although I don't see the benefit for us. I guess minus taking off the blouse when it's hot but at that point we should fly in ABUs/BBDU? Where as that option doesn't exist for those in MiLAV who have to wear the nomex and the 2 piece is great for the crew dogs.

It was mainly one of those we were trying to future-proof, and allow AF/Army aircrews who had them issued be able to wear them to CAP as well as anyone who wanted to get them. It's a very different fabric from the standard OCPs, much more comfortable for general usage, for meetings and staff jobs, etc. I was hoping to not have to blouse my boots, but I guess I'll just stick with the green nomies.

It's a different fabric because they're Nomex.

farsightusf2017

Quote from: PHall on April 05, 2024, 04:45:38 AM
Quote from: SierraOneThree on April 05, 2024, 03:30:31 AM
Quote from: farsightusf2017 on April 04, 2024, 02:50:31 PMDon't get me wrong I'm not against 2PFDU although I don't see the benefit for us. I guess minus taking off the blouse when it's hot but at that point we should fly in ABUs/BBDU? Where as that option doesn't exist for those in MiLAV who have to wear the nomex and the 2 piece is great for the crew dogs.

It was mainly one of those we were trying to future-proof, and allow AF/Army aircrews who had them issued be able to wear them to CAP as well as anyone who wanted to get them. It's a very different fabric from the standard OCPs, much more comfortable for general usage, for meetings and staff jobs, etc. I was hoping to not have to blouse my boots, but I guess I'll just stick with the green nomies.

It's a different fabric because they're Nomex.


Yup tracking assuming by the name of FDU it was nomex. As I realize now the 2PFDU is the nomex OCP not the green two piece we have in the Navy. I wonder if the blue 2P massifs were considered?

SierraOneThree

Quote from: farsightusf2017 on April 05, 2024, 01:02:58 PMYup tracking assuming by the name of FDU it was nomex. As I realize now the 2PFDU is the nomex OCP not the green two piece we have in the Navy. I wonder if the blue 2P massifs were considered?

Doubtful. I found that likely a good portion of the people involved with uniform policy outside of general members making recommendations are....somewhat ignorant of current uniforms in real world applications and related technological advances. The only reason Massif flight jackets were added was because of a few people who wear them were able to be involved with one of the drafts.

Oh yeah, Massif jackets both green and OCP were in the draft. I believe they were retained.

skymaster

Quote from: SierraOneThree on April 06, 2024, 07:27:33 AM
Quote from: farsightusf2017 on April 05, 2024, 01:02:58 PMYup tracking assuming by the name of FDU it was nomex. As I realize now the 2PFDU is the nomex OCP not the green two piece we have in the Navy. I wonder if the blue 2P massifs were considered?

Doubtful. I found that likely a good portion of the people involved with uniform policy outside of general members making recommendations are....somewhat ignorant of current uniforms in real world applications and related technological advances. The only reason Massif flight jackets were added was because of a few people who wear them were able to be involved with one of the drafts.

Oh yeah, Massif jackets both green and OCP were in the draft. I believe they were retained.

     There is a lot of truth in a lot of policies adopted by CAP in the last 10 years or so. As an example, I personally spoke one of the leading members of the committee whose deliberations resulted in the restructuring of the CAP grade restructuring a few years ago, that made promotions to the higher grades further out of reach for many members. He was himself a retired USAF Lt Colonel who was a CAP Colonel, and pushed hard for additional roadblocks for promotion to Colonel because the grade of Colonel when he was in the service post-Vietnam was nigh impossible, and he thought that was still the case in the 2010s and after. Even though that the Secretary of the Air Force himself publicly stated that there is no reason why any officer in any specialty that does his job dutifully and completes all appropriate PME should not be able to retire from the USAF as a full Colonel. In other words, it is literally more difficult to get promoted to full Colonel in an Auxiliary of the USAF than it is in the actual Active Duty USAF. Prior to this change, it was at least possible to achieve the grade full colonel in CAP by becoming the National HQ Department Head (e.g. National Health Services Officer, National Historian, National Director of Safety, National Chief of Staff, etc.)  without also having previously served as at least a CAP Wing Commander.
    Along these lines, many well-meaning members of various committees discussing things such as uniform changes seem to have something of a similar view. CAP still uses an outdated height-weight standard that is no longer used in the actual USAF. It was replaced by a Body Mass Index (BMI) system over a decade ago, and even that was tweaked in early 2023 to increase the allowed percentage of body fat in male troops to be increased from 20 to 26 percent, and for females the allowed percentage of body fat was increased from 28 percent to 36 percent. (The Air Force Academy still uses a height/weight chart because of their specially tailored uniforms, but that is an Academy standard, not a Service standard). The current USAF standard for members of both the Air Force and Space Force actually uses a measurement of the ratio of the measurement of the smallest part of the waist (essentially, your trouser size) divided by your height in inches. People meet the AFI 36-2903 standards if the ratio is any number less than 0.55 . If that number exceeds 0.55, then the individual does not meet the current AF standard. If this actual current USAF standard were adopted by CAP as well for members to wear the USAF-style uniform such as the new OCP uniform, then a LOT more CAP members that must wear Corporate uniforms because of not meeting a obsolete USAF height/weight chart standard intended for late teens/early 20s age Initial Entry Basic Trainees and Officer Candidates, could wear a (appropriately distinctive) same uniform as our parent service.
    I find it somewhat ironic that, as a officer of the Georgia State Guard Air and Space Force (whose uniform policies follow USAF and Air National Guard standards), I can wear a minimally distinctive OCP uniform NOW and still be in fully within State DOD regs, but must wear Corporate uniforms when performing Federal CAP duties. I sincerely hope that the day comes when I can wear the same OCP uniforms and just change out the velcro name, branch, and grade to wear it performing CAP duties

SierraOneThree

Quote from: skymaster on April 19, 2024, 08:59:49 PMI find it somewhat ironic that, as a officer of the Georgia State Guard Air and Space Force (whose uniform policies follow USAF and Air National Guard standards), I can wear a minimally distinctive OCP uniform NOW and still be in fully within State DOD regs, but must wear Corporate uniforms when performing Federal CAP duties. I sincerely hope that the day comes when I can wear the same OCP uniforms and just change out the velcro name, branch, and grade to wear it performing CAP duties

For what it's worth, the draft from last spring basically just said for grooming standards "refer to the DAFI." I don't think there was anything about height/weight, but it stands to reason that we would do the same with that, and just say "refer to the USAF regs."

Ned

FWIW, using height/weight information is far less intrusive than actually having to tape members at a weekly meeting.

Not everyone would be comfortable with having another member measure their waist size using the USAF/DoD standards.

NIN

Quote from: Ned on April 20, 2024, 05:50:41 AMFWIW, using height/weight information is far less intrusive than actually having to tape members at a weekly meeting.

Not everyone would be comfortable with having another member measure their waist size using the USAF/DoD standards.

Then again, Ned: We currently rely on our member's integrity to determine whether or not they "meet the standards" to wear the USAF-style uniform. We don't measure their height and have them step on a scale once a year in the presence of their commander to verify that they meet the standard.

Using the AF's own current standard (which, admittedly, requires some maths) vs a super outdated chart might, you know, bring us into the 21st century and in line with our Total Force partner's published standards (with an appropriate factor of some sort like we currently have). 

That still requires our member's integrity to say "nope, I don't meet the standards, I'll wear corporate".
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
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Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: NIN on April 20, 2024, 02:19:35 PM
Quote from: Ned on April 20, 2024, 05:50:41 AMFWIW, using height/weight information is far less intrusive than actually having to tape members at a weekly meeting.

Not everyone would be comfortable with having another member measure their waist size using the USAF/DoD standards.

Then again, Ned: We currently rely on our member's integrity to determine whether or not they "meet the standards" to wear the USAF-style uniform. We don't measure their height and have them step on a scale once a year in the presence of their commander to verify that they meet the standard.

Using the AF's own current standard (which, admittedly, requires some maths) vs a super outdated chart might, you know, bring us into the 21st century and in line with our Total Force partner's published standards (with an appropriate factor of some sort like we currently have). 

That still requires our member's integrity to say "nope, I don't meet the standards, I'll wear corporate".
Alas, there are too many people who join for the wrong reasons, and the Venn diagram of those folks and wearing uniforms they are out of regs for is almost a perfect circle.