Article: billing for SAR services

Started by Spam, October 06, 2021, 12:23:25 PM

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Spam

This just out, an article on a topic which has come up from time to time over the years.

https://dnyuz.com/2021/10/06/you-got-lost-and-had-to-be-rescued-should-you-pay/

R/s
Spam

etodd

#1
An example.  If you've been warned for days, weeks even, that a hurricane is coming, and you are told to evacuate,  but stubbornly refuse ... then absolutely yes ... you should have to pay for that helicopter crew that lifts you off the roof of your home.  (Flash flood from a dam that breaks, different story.)

As for the lead story in the article, these people were not lost. Still on the trail. They just didn't want to wait a few hours until the sun came up enough to walk back. They would not have died from lack of water or food.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

Eclipse

Quote from: etodd on October 06, 2021, 12:55:36 PMAn example.  If you've been warned for days, weeks even, that a hurricane is coming, and you are told to evacuate,  but stubbornly refuse ... then absolutely yes ... you should have to pay for that helicopter crew that lifts you off the roof of your home. 

Sounds really good on paper and at a pep rally, fails on the practical.

How do you handle the people who can't evacuate?  They don't have a car, don't have the financial means
to rack at a Motel 1 (let alone 6),etc., or have a job that doesn't allow them to leave?

I think it's fair to say that if you don't have the means to leave, you won't have the money for the
helo rides either, so just add that invoice to the pile.


"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

In cases like these, where seemingly capable adults make poor choices, send them the bill.

"That Others May Zoom"

NIN

Quote from: Spam on October 06, 2021, 12:23:25 PMThis just out, an article on a topic which has come up from time to time over the years.

https://dnyuz.com/2021/10/06/you-got-lost-and-had-to-be-rescued-should-you-pay/

I can't specifically speak to other states, but since New Hampshire & the White Mountains are part of the lead of the story, I can give a little insight.   My friends from out west like to hassle me that New Hampshire doesn't have "real mountains." Which, in some ways, is part of the problem. People who are unprepared are usually that way because they've underestimated the situation. "Oh, these aren't real mountains."

https://www.mountwashington.org/

At one point, holder of the highest recorded wind speed from 1934 until 1996 (231 mph).  The weather is very unpredictable there and throughout the White Mountains.

Quote from: etodd on October 06, 2021, 12:55:36 PMAs for the lead story in the article, these people were not lost. Still on the trail. They just didn't want to wait a few hours until the sun came up enough to walk back. They would not have died from lack of water or food.

Yes, thankfully in July, and not November (or even right now, first week of October, where the temps get down in the lower 40s and below at night at altitude in the mountains).  The couple mentioned were from Florida. Like me, from Michigan: a very flat state. VERY easy to underestimate whats going on. And you've got kids, and likely not even a jacket.  Definitely not a flashlight except for your now dwindling battery on your cell phone (hint: that is not a flashlight)

But the larger problem is people hiking in the mountains who are woefully underprepared. I am not the most experienced hiker, so when I go up in the mountains on a 4-6 mile loop hike on a 4,000ft'er, I bring a bunch of things: extra socks, extra layers, rain protection, a GPS, extra batteries, a whistle, a headlamp, first aid kit, food, water, etc. My rucksack probably weighs more than it should. But: I'm not being plucked off that mountain by a Blackhawk. No way, no how.  I may scoot down that mountain on my butt, but I'm doing that unless I somehow break off the entire lower half off my body.

My wife and I hiked up Mt. Jackson one spring. First week of May. Still enough snow on the trail that we were post-holing in the treeline and to just below the summit. We were well prepared (boots, gaiters, layers, all the stuff I mentioned above, etc). We started early in the morning (8am?).  On the way down, around 2pm, we were passing people on the way up.  In jeans, t-shirts, sneakers, etc, carrying nothing but a bottle of Dasani water and a cell phone.  Now, those people weren't going to go much past where the snow was, but the fact remained: you only have maybe 3-4 hrs of daylight remaining, and you're only on your way up? 

Pylon and I went up to Mt. Pierce a bunch of years back.  We were loaded for bear: goretex, hiking poles, all that. November 3rd. 

Some selected photos: https://imgur.com/a/t5QXS0F

Gentle snow at the base, not even hardly accumulating.  Raging blizzard at the summit.  Visibility down to less than 100 ft. I was a little worried that going the last 100 yards to the summit cairn we'd lose which way we had to go back down to the trail. Sure enough: our footprints were already filling in.

My point is: While our mountains here are seen as "puny" or "little", they shouldn't be underestimated. But they usually are. And those are the people who are getting hit for search charges.

https://wildlife.state.nh.us/safe/

Hike Safe Card. Straight to the state's Search & Rescue fund.





Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Jester

Quote from: etodd on October 06, 2021, 12:55:36 PMAn example.  If you've been warned for days, weeks even, that a hurricane is coming, and you are told to evacuate,  but stubbornly refuse ... then absolutely yes ... you should have to pay for that helicopter crew that lifts you off the roof of your home.  (Flash flood from a dam that breaks, different story.)

Pretty poor optics to require that of people that didn't evacuate because they couldn't afford to. 

NIN

I meant to mention that the search featured in the first part of that article was in an area called Franconia Ridge in Franconia Notch.  My first 4000 footer was Mt. Liberty on Franconia Ridge, just south of the Old Bridle Path Trail and Mt Lafayette. It is not a super easy trek.  We had a search mission on Franconia Ridge, within the vicinity of Mt. Lafayette, in May 2017 where cell forensics wound up saving th day: https://www.wmur.com/article/search-continues-for-missing-manchester-hiker/9604889#  (also: https://www.concordmonitor.com/cell-phone-forensics-civil-air-patrol-search-rescue-19039623)

BTW, there was a pretty nifty podcast hosted by a couple White Mountain hikers called "Sounds Like a Search & Rescue." One of the guys is active in the mountain SAR community and they have some interesting stuff about SARs in the White Mountains: https://slasrpodcast.com/new-hampshire-sar-database   Their SAR Report for 2020 is pretty nifty to include some statistics and links to notable missions: https://slasrpodcast.com/the-nh-sar-report-2020



Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Eclipse

All Trails shows this as "difficult".  No idea if they changed it, but it conflicts with
the article.

Comments say "challenging".

7.5 miles with a +3500 feet elevation change?  Yeah, I'd agree.

Based on normal hiking speed that's about 1.5 hours per mile, which makes this
a 5 hour hike without two kids who give out after a hour and have to be carried.



With that said, anyone who looks up at a 3500 foot "hill" and starts walking up with
two kids and no water deserves the bill. 

"That Others May Zoom"

NIN

I wouldn't even say 1.5mph. Seriously. I estimate 1mph and I'm happy when I exceed it.

In the Whites, the hikes are substantially like climbing a 3,500 ft or 4,500ft set of stairs. Its all rocks and roots and uneven footing and fist, head and beachball-sized rocks in a narrow corridor thru the trees.

In my first post I included a shot of the trail on Mt. Jackson, the hike my wife and I did in May that year:



Thats looking up the trail, and thats mid-calf to knee-deep snow. Extended from about the 3500 ft level to a little bit above the treeline where the sun was able to melt it down (the summit was GOREGEOUS that day...). But still: snow on the trail in May. And people headed up in t-shirts and sneakers with no equipment late in the day.

The day Pylon and I went up Mt. Pierce, at one of the trail junctions sheltered in the trees after summiting, we stopped, doffed our goretexs and sat on our rucksacks to eat. It was cold (high 30s?) but not windy in the trees and only a little snow filtering down. Really comfortable in a fleece for a little bit of time. Don't get chilled. 

While we were eating, two guys came bombing down the trail from Mt. Eisenhower. One guy was a Marine SSgt that Pylon knew from his Reserve unit. They were both dressed in lightweight pants, lightweight shells, hats, gloves and basically "trail shoes with wool socks" and only the smallest of packs.  They were doing a fast southern Presidentials traverse. Two young guys, both in really good shape, and relying on their wits and speed to keep them out of trouble.  They both had icicles hanging off their hats and on their socks. Now, good on you for doing a "speed traverse," but that sort of hike, even in "late fall conditions" is a "one mistake" hike.  You make one bad decision and it may be the only one you get. You twist your ankle and can't go on, the first thing you do is call for SAR. Because its a close race to see if they can get up the mountain to you, and get you back down, before you go hypothermic.

https://www.outdoors.org/resources/amc-outdoors/history/too-cold-the-death-of-kate-matrosova/

"There is a snug economy to being outfitted for and moving at the right speed through intense cold, where the little engine of your body is kicking out heat and your layered clothes are managing that heat efficiently."

https://www.nhpr.org/north-country/2016-01-01/anatomy-of-a-search-when-hiker-called-for-help-n-h-rescuers-braved-monstrous-storm

(Not mentioned in those is the CAP aicrew that was flying 3000+ ft above the summit of Mt. Washington that morning attempting to get a bead on the PLB signal. And getting thrown up and down 50-100 ft at a clip in the 90+mph winds. Going 5-10mph flying in one direction and 200 in the other and trying to get a good signal on the Rho-Theta.)

And from that podcast SAR report, the 2020 noteworthy SAR calls.  "Crushed by the remaining snow bridge on Tuckerman Ravine in mid-summer. Don't stand under a football field sized snow bridge"

That happened July 19th, 2020. MID-Summer on the side of a 6,288ft mountain.

The takeaway? Don't underestimate the terrain and weather's ability to try to kill you.





Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

FlyingPig

The only way I would support billing for SAR ops is as a result of criminal sentencing.  I was involved in one years ago in CA where a teenager purposely faked going lost and evaded the SAR members.  Then "rescued" himself and told a glorious story.  After a law enforcement investigation, it was determined he was full of poo.  Based on some other circumstances, it was decided to let it go after some psych and emotional issues were brought to light. 
Robert Steht, Capt.
Mission Pilot/CD Pilot
CFI Airplane / CFI Helicopter
Former Sq. Commander