Is the ARM Mission even a "thing" anymore? Back in the day I recall people doing the qualification. But I never heard of any missions. Is that a capability CAP even has now?
Mehhh, upon searching, it appears this is a long since deceased mission. Unless anyone has anything else to add.
It is long former mission. Given the equipment used was old Civil Defense equipment from the 50's and 60's, and the conditions that the mission would have been stood up for (atomic warfare), have changed dramatically, CAP stood down the mission many years ago.
Yeah,
I still see references to it, but when I came back to CAP in the late 90s after getting out of the Marines I think it was already gone.
Thanks
The last time I recall doing any training for this mission was way back in the mid 80's.
Quote from: PHall on December 11, 2022, 10:21:28 PMThe last time I recall doing any training for this mission was way back in the mid 80's.
I recall a couple of very old gentleman/pilots with the patch when I was a cadet in the 80s, but really beyond that I never heard anything about it. 35 years ago those guys were probably in their late 60s early 70s
It was still a thing in the early '70s. I took the ground course in early 1971. IIRC, you had to be an Observer to take the airborne course.
There was still training for it (at least in Texas) up until the early-mid 00's. While there are still other organizations that train for it and do it, for CAP it has been a non-existent mission, at least as far as I can tell, for a very long time.
Recently turned in the Aerial Radiological Monitoring kit from AOR to a NG Museuem since it was State property under MilDept of the EMA I retired from.
Most of these missions are done by Dept of Energy NEST program...you know...0aid professionals.
Would have been a good training program for CAP to be in on but as seen with some of the programs...either CAP or others may have come to some/same conclusions...
Can't always wait for some one to arrive at the incident scene when there's a modicum of a hurry in larger more serious incidents
CAP is not a first response agency, although we'd like to be, this is one of those programs that fell to someone else
I've been in the DoE helicopters, so looking around at that set up got me to wondering how and where CAP might still be doing this mission. Because if CAP was, people needed medals for keeping secrets. When I flew for the state police in GA, they have a radiological monitoring unit, but its not airborne. Its done through the Motor Carrier Division. I didn't figure it was a CAP mission anymore. When I was in CAWG 2000-2012 I was flying so much with CAP it was like a fulltime job and never heard it mentioned. Now getting back in, I was wanting to confirm whether it was or wasnt just fascinating history. Gone the way of dropping bombs on subs.
Back in the 2000s I seem to recall a half-day or so "training" that was really more of an awareness course given by our local nuclear plant. I think as far as making our folks aware of various hazards, even if we aren't going to be responding, stuff like that has some usefulness.
One of the things pilots find interesting that the airspace around a Nuclear plant isnt at all restricted. No TFRs nothing. A local sailplane pilot was arrested for thermaling over a nuclear plant a few years ago, in part because a Deputy Sheriff just assumed it was illegal. I think he was arrested and cited for Reckless Operations of an Aircraft. Plant Security had called in. Smart? Id say absolutely not the best use of judgement, but being dumb isnt in itself illegal.
Quote from: FlyingPig on December 14, 2022, 06:02:38 PMOne of the things pilots find interesting that the airspace around a Nuclear plant isnt at all restricted. No TFRs nothing.
Not exactly a rule or reg, but the FAA has issued a NOTAM that covers it. Up to each pilot to decide if they want to test it:
QuoteFDC 6/8818 FDC ...SPECIAL NOTICE...IN THE INTEREST OF NATIONAL SECURITY AND TO THE EXTENT PRACTICABLE, PILOTS AND UAS OPERATORS ARE STRONGLY ADVISED TO AVOID THE AIRSPACE ABOVE OR IN CLOSE PROXIMITY TO CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE AND OTHER SENSITIVE LOCATIONS SUCH AS POWER PLANTS (NUCLEAR, HYDRO-ELECTRIC, OR COAL), DAMS, REFINERIES, INDUSTRIAL COMPLEXES, MILITARY FACILITIES, CORRECTIONAL AND LAW ENFORCEMENT FACILITIES UNLESS OTHERWISE AUTHORIZED. PILOTS AND UAS OPERATORS SHOULD NOT CIRCLE AS TO LOITER IN THE VICINITY OVER THESE TYPES OF FACILITIES.
Quote from: etodd on December 15, 2022, 12:47:42 AMQuote from: FlyingPig on December 14, 2022, 06:02:38 PMOne of the things pilots find interesting that the airspace around a Nuclear plant isnt at all restricted. No TFRs nothing.
Not exactly a rule or reg, but the FAA has issued a NOTAM that covers it. Up to each pilot to decide if they want to test it:
QuoteFDC 6/8818 FDC ...SPECIAL NOTICE...IN THE INTEREST OF NATIONAL SECURITY AND TO THE EXTENT PRACTICABLE, PILOTS AND UAS OPERATORS ARE STRONGLY ADVISED TO AVOID THE AIRSPACE ABOVE OR IN CLOSE PROXIMITY TO CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE AND OTHER SENSITIVE LOCATIONS SUCH AS POWER PLANTS (NUCLEAR, HYDRO-ELECTRIC, OR COAL), DAMS, REFINERIES, INDUSTRIAL COMPLEXES, MILITARY FACILITIES, CORRECTIONAL AND LAW ENFORCEMENT FACILITIES UNLESS OTHERWISE AUTHORIZED. PILOTS AND UAS OPERATORS SHOULD NOT CIRCLE AS TO LOITER IN THE VICINITY OVER THESE TYPES OF FACILITIES.
Yeah, basically a "hey, it would be really cool if...." Its not even worth the ink it took to write it. There's nothing to prevent you from doing it, so the part about "unless otherwise authorized" is comical. Its authorized by the very nature of it not being unauthorized. But leave it to the government to give you permission to do stuff youre already allowed to do.
I've had discussions of bringing it back and a radresponder alignment but my last wing commander was the Department of No on so many other things I backburnered it.
I may have to bring that up again soon...
Quote from: Holding Pattern on January 27, 2023, 05:23:29 PMI've had discussions of bringing it back and a radresponder alignment but my last wing commander was the Department of No on so many other things I backburnered it.
I may have to bring that up again soon...
Well before you go to the trouble of bringing it up again you might ask yourself is this a task that CAP can
realistically be asked to do and by what agency?
Quote from: PHall on January 27, 2023, 06:40:10 PMQuote from: Holding Pattern on January 27, 2023, 05:23:29 PMI've had discussions of bringing it back and a radresponder alignment but my last wing commander was the Department of No on so many other things I backburnered it.
I may have to bring that up again soon...
Well before you go to the trouble of bringing it up again you might ask yourself is this a task that CAP can realistically be asked to do and by what agency?
Definitely a skillset with limited use or appeal.
As a cadet, having just completed a radiological monitoring course during the waning days of the Cold War (early 1980s), my mother was quick to inform me that my training would only ever be "academic" in nature. She then assured that there was no way in hell that my parents would ever let me "
go out with my CAP buddies to measure radiation".
Just remove the patch from the uniform manual and nobody will be worried about it anymore.
Quote from: Holding Pattern on January 27, 2023, 05:23:29 PMI've had discussions of bringing it back and a radresponder alignment but my last wing commander was the Department of No on so many other things I backburnered it.
I may have to bring that up again soon...
Id brought up the topic because I was in the process of rejoining after 10 years. It wasn't even a thing 10 years ago so I was curious when I saw it still mentioned. I've flown with DoE and been around a couple LE agencies who do it and was curious how CAP was still involved. On the LE side, even the basic course is a couple of weeks, and that's for ground motor carrier inspections. Plus I was curious where this plane and equipment is hidden. So as far as brining it up to the Wing Commander, that is a mission that's long since advanced past the capabilities of CAP. This mission was already non-existent in the 90s. 30 years later, we might as well ask when CAP is going to send someone to send someone to space (yeah yeah... save the links to the articles about astronauts who were CAP members)
Seems like a good opportunity to hang some meat around a UAS program if we were so inclined.
Sure. Fly your drone into a contaminated area, and what do you do with a contaminated $1000+ asset? That's a hard nope from me.
In 2023, I dont see volunteers being called in to test an area for radiation. Even when CAP had a mission, I dont think they had a mission. They got some old 1970s equipment and created a program that was probably obsolete before it ever got off the ground.
Quote from: FlyingPig on January 31, 2023, 02:42:36 PMIn 2023, I dont see volunteers being called in to test an area for radiation. Even when CAP had a mission, I dont think they had a mission. They got some old 1970s equipment and created a program that was probably obsolete before it ever got off the ground.
More like the '50s:
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOY5WU0Qous4apKnaPL9NOvDNUnGHWsQ0MNsGEBFyY35GDTvaQp3Ns0CyRp54Z8yQ?key=Tlg5a1Npci1nOXpQWXBNVTZMXzEzZk9GR2x1MGdB
(https://i.postimg.cc/FRr0cNKk/radmon.jpg)
I'm reasonably sure the obsolete equipment I sent to another member downstate back in 2010 was the actual
gear in this photo.
As ridiculous as it was to even
pretend members would be flying into potentially radioactive areas, and
then decontaminating aircraft afterwards
with a garden hose, it's 10-times that today, not to mention that radiation can now be detected from space.
One of the major reasons CAP has zero traction in ES anymore is that its members and leadership are wholly
unrealistic about CAP's place in the universe, its real capabilities, or where it might actually be able to
provide assistance.
For some historical fun
https://orau.org/health-physics-museum/files/library/civil-defense/fg-e-5.9.1.pdf
Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2023, 04:46:20 PMOne of the major reasons CAP has zero traction in ES anymore is that its members and leadership are wholly
unrealistic about CAP's place in the universe, its real capabilities, or where it might actually be able to
provide assistance.
Worth repeating for the folks in the back that didn't see your post.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2023, 04:46:20 PMQuote from: FlyingPig on January 31, 2023, 02:42:36 PMIn 2023, I dont see volunteers being called in to test an area for radiation. Even when CAP had a mission, I dont think they had a mission. They got some old 1970s equipment and created a program that was probably obsolete before it ever got off the ground.
More like the '50s:
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOY5WU0Qous4apKnaPL9NOvDNUnGHWsQ0MNsGEBFyY35GDTvaQp3Ns0CyRp54Z8yQ?key=Tlg5a1Npci1nOXpQWXBNVTZMXzEzZk9GR2x1MGdB
(https://i.postimg.cc/FRr0cNKk/radmon.jpg)
I'm reasonably sure the obsolete equipment I sent to another member downstate back in 2010 was the actual
gear in this photo.
As ridiculous as it was to even pretend members would be flying into potentially radioactive areas, and
then decontaminating aircraft afterwards with a garden hose, it's 10-times that today, not to mention that radiation can now be detected from space.
One of the major reasons CAP has zero traction in ES anymore is that its members and leadership are wholly
unrealistic about CAP's place in the universe, its real capabilities, or where it might actually be able to
provide assistance.
I wonder if that's a cadet under the wing with the radioactive water pouring down on his head? Clearly pre-Cadet Protection.
Quote from: FlyingPig on February 01, 2023, 01:18:36 PMI wonder if that's a cadet under the wing with the radioactive water pouring down on his head? Clearly pre-Cadet Protection.
When we did CD training as cadets, we poured radioactive water on our heads and liked it! <harrumph> Kids these days.
More to the original point, some CAP wings with nuclear power plants in their state have been engaged by their emergency management agency to provide input into their Radiological Emergency Plan.
Speaking for my wing, we suggested 2-3 ways we could assist the state today, with the training and equipment we have, that would result in supporting the ESFs engaged in a response under the REP with minimal exposure (ie. "Not flying right over the site going 'wow, cool glow'."). None of the areas that we'd be assisting in during an incident would be locations that would require dosimetry or KI kits.
We also suggested that we *might* be able to provide some form of aerial radiological monitoring *if* we could get appropriate training and equipment. That would be a much larger conversation around things like the extent of the mission, "carry-aboard" vs specifically equipped aircraft, training from FEMA, etc. That was not very high on the list of things that were likely to happen, though.
But remembering back to my days of CD (*cough* Cold War), even aerial radiological monitoring then wasn't "Welp, lets fly right over 3 Mile Island, see what we can pickup..." It was flying surveys with sensitive equipment where you could ascertain where radiation levels might be increasing. No need for lead-lined Cessnas...
Quote from: NIN on February 02, 2023, 09:22:30 PMsome CAP wings with nuclear power plants in their state have been engaged by their emergency management agency to provide input into their Radiological Emergency Plan.
BTDT - Interestingly, my
state historically refused to sign the "required" MOU, (every CI there was a note to that effect) but the state's nuclear agency has a couple pages dedicated to CAP assistance, and regularly would invite CAP to both update the documents as well as participate in table-top exercises.
They are eye openers if nothing else.
CAP's involvement was limited primarily to airborne support in the OTHER DIRECTION of contamination - checking the evacuation routes from
an effected area. On the CAP side there was zero doctrine about how this would actually work, or what to do with an aircraft after it was involved.
As this was an actual mission with a real agency and legitimate scenarios, the interest from CAP, generally, would make
crickets deafening. Not once was this sort of response ever incorporated into Evals, and I would be surprised if CAP-USAF was even aware of the connections.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 02, 2023, 10:26:35 PM- checking the evacuation routes from
an effected area.
As we have done recently taking photos of hurricane evac routes. Well away from the danger. Just checking traffic flows.
But no. If nukes ever hit the U.S., it would be every man for himself trying to take care of his family. Few "volunteers" would show up.
Came across this:
QuoteOver the past several days, the DoE has been flying their rotary wing Aerial Measuring System to scan the metro Phoenix area for background radiation prior to the NFL championship game.
The helicopter, N411DE, is a Bell 412 modified to support the radiological survey, search, and mitigation tasks.
The mission has been completed and the aircraft is back at Nellis AFB.
(https://www.thedrive.com/content/2020/06/ams-top-2.jpg?quality=85&crop=16%3A9&auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1920)
Quote from: PHall on January 27, 2023, 06:40:10 PMQuote from: Holding Pattern on January 27, 2023, 05:23:29 PMI've had discussions of bringing it back and a radresponder alignment but my last wing commander was the Department of No on so many other things I backburnered it.
I may have to bring that up again soon...
Well before you go to the trouble of bringing it up again you might ask yourself is this a task that CAP can realistically be asked to do and by what agency?
Already done. But right now the only barrier is that all the squadrons in my area are in the midst of Reconstitution. We lost A LOT of qualifications over the COVID period.