ABUs

[Toth]

I just heard that ABUs are not authorized for wear at the NYWG encampment in July. I cant find any info on the encampment website  or wing website to support this. Is this allowed?

I know Blue Beret is also only allowing BDUs for wear this summer. As far as if it is allowed... yeah, I think it's well within their scope of authority to say members should only wear a certain uniform to an event, in the same way a squadron can say you should only wear a certain uniform to a local event.

[Okayish Aviator]

I just heard that ABUs are not authorized for wear at the NYWG encampment in July. I cant find any info on the encampment website  or wing website to support this. Is this allowed?

I know Blue Beret is also only allowing BDUs for wear this summer. As far as if it is allowed... yeah, I think it's well within their scope of authority to say members should only wear a certain uniform to an event, in the same way a squadron can say you should only wear a certain uniform to a local event.

Well considering right now the beret is only authorised for BBDU's and BDU's, I'm not that surprised on that one for NBB. I'm just thinking if you have a BRAND NEW member, and they go and get ABU's instead of BDU's since they are the new uniform, why would they be restricted from using it? It takes time to get uniforms together, and looking right. I guess I don't see the point in disallowing them unless it was "only cadets having joined after this date may wear ABU's, all others will wear BDU's." That's what INWG encampment has done.

[MHC5096]

The odds of a BRAND NEW cadet member joining in June 2016 and attending the NYW encampment in July 2016...slim to none.

[Garibaldi]

I just heard that ABUs are not authorized for wear at the NYWG encampment in July. I cant find any info on the encampment website  or wing website to support this. Is this allowed?

I believe that the same applies to the NCWG encampment as well.

GAWG encampment starts 4 days after authorization, so the encampment CC said no way. No one can get insignia that fast.

[Paul Creed III]

I just heard that ABUs are not authorized for wear at the NYWG encampment in July. I cant find any info on the encampment website  or wing website to support this. Is this allowed?

I believe that the same applies to the NCWG encampment as well.

GAWG encampment starts 4 days after authorization, so the encampment CC said no way. No one can get insignia that fast.

Same for OHWG's Encampment.

[Eclipse]

No one can get insignia that fast?
Members have it now.

[NIN]

No one can get insignia that fast?
Members have it now.

1.2.3.4. Vanguard is the authorized vendor for CAP insignia. Items sold through the "Civil
Air Patrol" section of the Vanguard webpage are those approved for wear on the CAP uniform. Members
who buy uniform items from other vendors may not meet CAP regulations, and commanders may direct
the removal of these items from the uniform if they do not meet standards for design, size, material, etc.

Since Vanguard hasn't sold the insignia yet, nobody is 100% sure what the specific shade of grey that will stand in for "silver" is yet, nor what the specific definition of "dark navy blue" will be.

Members obtaining insignia (tapes that say "CIVIL AIR PATROL" and grade insignia, I would suspect) that don't match in color and specification to those items (to eventually be) obtained from Vanguard are asking for trouble.  Never mind getting CAP-specific insignia such as qualification badges, commander's badges, etc, made and in the right shade from a vendor who isn't authorized. (ie. not only might the color be off, but will the embroidery / design look correct?)

So I ask: Why the hurry, folks?  Why go thru the time and expense to have "custom" insignia made that MAY NOT MEET THE SPECS? 

Vanguard will have the insignia available in the next 25 days or so.  Thats three weeks. 

Does anybody really think that Vanguard is still churning out Ultramarine Blue insignia?  "Sorry, we can't even make the new insignia until after midnight on the 15th of June!"  No, they're probably making commander's badges and observer wings and GT badges and grade insignia right now so they have a stock of new insignia ready to ship out when people start ordering it on the 15th.

But again: whats the rush?  There is going to be no prize for being the first guy (or gal.. no need to be sexist) to wear ABUs in your region, wing, group or squadron.

Its not like ABUs are authorized for wear on the 15th of June and BDUs turn into a pumpkin on 1 July or something.

No.  The phase in period is FIVE YEARS. FIVE!

I wear a military aviation badge on my BDUs. I've had them made white-on-ultramarine by a 3rd party vendor for a number of years now. They even cranked me out some white-on-dark-navy insignia last time I ordered, just cuz, you know, "ABUs are coming" (that was 2-ish years ago).  However, hahaha, joke's on me: ABU insignia = "silver-on-dark-navy."  Whoops. Oh well, thats $6 down the drain.

But I'm waiting to find out *exactly* what color the ABU insignia will be, FROM VANGUARD, before I go back to my third party vendor and say "Hey, can you make me these aircrew wings silver-on-dark-navy with this shade of grey thread?"  So that my insignia matches correctly the first time and I don't put my commander in the awkward position to have to say "Uh, hey there Lt Col Ninness, that insignia is wrong.."  (I'm the Wing DP, too, so hahaha, joke's on me again: I'm the OPR for uniform issues.  Doesn't do well to have the point-person for uniforms be wearing his stuff all jacked up, right?)

Like I used to have painted just to one side of the door on my helicopter: "If there isn't time to do it right, when is there time to do it again?"

Everybody needs to relax just a little bit.

[TheSkyHornet]

I just heard that ABUs are not authorized for wear at the NYWG encampment in July. I cant find any info on the encampment website  or wing website to support this. Is this allowed?

I believe that the same applies to the NCWG encampment as well.

GAWG encampment starts 4 days after authorization, so the encampment CC said no way. No one can get insignia that fast.

Same for OHWG's Encampment.

Maj Creed,

BDUs for Basics, and ABUs for staff, correct?

There still seems to be some confusion circling about this subject. Some sources are reporting that OHWG was going to obtain ABUs for every "member" in the Wing; others say just cadets; others say it's first-come, first-serve. A lot of scuttlebutt in the air.

- OHWG/SM

[Paul Creed III]

I just heard that ABUs are not authorized for wear at the NYWG encampment in July. I cant find any info on the encampment website  or wing website to support this. Is this allowed?

I believe that the same applies to the NCWG encampment as well.

GAWG encampment starts 4 days after authorization, so the encampment CC said no way. No one can get insignia that fast.

Same for OHWG's Encampment.

Maj Creed,

BDUs for Basics, and ABUs for staff, correct?

There still seems to be some confusion circling about this subject. Some sources are reporting that OHWG was going to obtain ABUs for every "member" in the Wing; others say just cadets; others say it's first-come, first-serve. A lot of scuttlebutt in the air.

- OHWG/SM

As an Ohio Wing Encampment staff member, I have received no word on ABUs for staff at Encampment (then again, I'll be in a flight suit most of the time).

At this time, the quantity of ABUs being sent to the Wings is TBD. Wing LG will be handling distribution of ABUs and there will be a process to help get cadets BDUs from existing stockpiles around the Wing - your squadron commander will have something from the group commander in a few days.

[TheSkyHornet]

I just heard that ABUs are not authorized for wear at the NYWG encampment in July. I cant find any info on the encampment website  or wing website to support this. Is this allowed?

I believe that the same applies to the NCWG encampment as well.

GAWG encampment starts 4 days after authorization, so the encampment CC said no way. No one can get insignia that fast.

Same for OHWG's Encampment.

Maj Creed,

BDUs for Basics, and ABUs for staff, correct?

There still seems to be some confusion circling about this subject. Some sources are reporting that OHWG was going to obtain ABUs for every "member" in the Wing; others say just cadets; others say it's first-come, first-serve. A lot of scuttlebutt in the air.

- OHWG/SM

As an Ohio Wing Encampment staff member, I have received no word on ABUs for staff at Encampment (then again, I'll be in a flight suit most of the time).

At this time, the quantity of ABUs being sent to the Wings is TBD. Wing LG will be handling distribution of ABUs and there will be a process to help get cadets BDUs from existing stockpiles around the Wing - your squadron commander will have something from the group commander in a few days.

Like I said, sounds like the usual scuttlebutt and bad gouge. Somebody knows, and they told someone else, who told five people, and now you have 20 different answers.

I know there was a lot of talk about at the Wing Conference about ABUs, and I'm sure it was brought up in just about every classroom solely because of the fact that I heard several individuals come out of their classes and talking in the hallway about "No, they said this"..."Really? Because they just told us this..."

I already sent out the email to my cadets to tell them that while ABUs are phasing in, we don't have a lot of information to share at the unit level at this point, and to stop asking questions. We are working on collecting everyone's uniform sizes just to have in our own files in the event that we can assist down the road with uniform items, but nobody is being told they're going to be given anything nor that they must wear this/that after the effective date for ABU wear.

But it's amazing how you can gather 200+ people into one building and apparently everyone heard something different. I don't envy the amount of nagging you must be getting as the new Group/CC (especially considering it's my group...muwahahaha)

[vesryn]

The odds of a BRAND NEW cadet member joining in June 2016 and attending the NYW encampment in July 2016...slim to none.

Have two from our squadron.

[Eclipse]

No one can get insignia that fast?
Members have it now.

1.2.3.4. Vanguard is the authorized vendor for CAP insignia. Items sold through the "Civil
Air Patrol" section of the Vanguard webpage are those approved for wear on the CAP uniform. Members
who buy uniform items from other vendors may not meet CAP regulations, and commanders may direct
the removal of these items from the uniform if they do not meet standards for design, size, material, etc.

Since Vanguard hasn't sold the insignia yet, nobody is 100% sure what the specific shade of grey that will stand in for "silver" is yet, nor what the specific definition of "dark navy blue" will be.

Members obtaining insignia (tapes that say "CIVIL AIR PATROL" and grade insignia, I would suspect) that don't match in color and specification to those items (to eventually be) obtained from Vanguard are asking for trouble.  Never mind getting CAP-specific insignia such as qualification badges, commander's badges, etc, made and in the right shade from a vendor who isn't authorized. (ie. not only might the color be off, but will the embroidery / design look correct?)

So I ask: Why the hurry, folks?  Why go thru the time and expense to have "custom" insignia made that MAY NOT MEET THE SPECS? 

Vanguard will have the insignia available in the next 25 days or so.  Thats three weeks. 

Does anybody really think that Vanguard is still churning out Ultramarine Blue insignia?  "Sorry, we can't even make the new insignia until after midnight on the 15th of June!"  No, they're probably making commander's badges and observer wings and GT badges and grade insignia right now so they have a stock of new insignia ready to ship out when people start ordering it on the 15th.

But again: whats the rush?  There is going to be no prize for being the first guy (or gal.. no need to be sexist) to wear ABUs in your region, wing, group or squadron.

Its not like ABUs are authorized for wear on the 15th of June and BDUs turn into a pumpkin on 1 July or something.

No.  The phase in period is FIVE YEARS. FIVE!

I wear a military aviation badge on my BDUs. I've had them made white-on-ultramarine by a 3rd party vendor for a number of years now. They even cranked me out some white-on-dark-navy insignia last time I ordered, just cuz, you know, "ABUs are coming" (that was 2-ish years ago).  However, hahaha, joke's on me: ABU insignia = "silver-on-dark-navy."  Whoops. Oh well, thats $6 down the drain.

But I'm waiting to find out *exactly* what color the ABU insignia will be, FROM VANGUARD, before I go back to my third party vendor and say "Hey, can you make me these aircrew wings silver-on-dark-navy with this shade of grey thread?"  So that my insignia matches correctly the first time and I don't put my commander in the awkward position to have to say "Uh, hey there Lt Col Ninness, that insignia is wrong.."  (I'm the Wing DP, too, so hahaha, joke's on me again: I'm the OPR for uniform issues.  Doesn't do well to have the point-person for uniforms be wearing his stuff all jacked up, right?)

Like I used to have painted just to one side of the door on my helicopter: "If there isn't time to do it right, when is there time to do it again?"

Everybody needs to relax just a little bit.

I agree on all points, except that CAP doesn't issue color specs, and Vanguard can't even match insignia between pieces it produces exclusively in-house,
not to mention the stuff changes color after one washing, sometimes unpredictably.

"Dark Navy and silver" = anything reasonably close - there are 100 vendors who can produce them, and the grade insignia
aren't unique to CAP for senior members, so anyone who can hold their water on their optional badges, but is an a superhero
hurry to wear ABUs can put them together with no delay.

Until CAP starts issuing color charts with thread codes and Pantone numbers, etc., this will never change.

As to the hurry, no idea, but one only needs to see the interest here, TwitBook, and in the wet world to know that there will
be members with meetings on the 15th that show up in ABUs all over the country.

All of my members are outfitted, a number on the USAF's dime - I told them to ignore the idea until at least the end of the CY
so that the issues with the wear instructions, not to mention supply chain can be worked out.

[Eclipse]

The odds of a BRAND NEW cadet member joining in June 2016 and attending the NYW encampment in July 2016...slim to none.

Have two from our squadron.

+1  I had a cadet who pushed Curry in 3 weeks to make encampment - remember, at the bare minimum
of membership requirements they've been attending meetings for 3+ weeks before the app is submitted,
that's probably when their motivation is at the highest point, and if the unit is doing beta PT, they don't even have to
make a number, just an attempt.

[Paul Creed III]

I just heard that ABUs are not authorized for wear at the NYWG encampment in July. I cant find any info on the encampment website  or wing website to support this. Is this allowed?

I believe that the same applies to the NCWG encampment as well.

GAWG encampment starts 4 days after authorization, so the encampment CC said no way. No one can get insignia that fast.

Same for OHWG's Encampment.

Maj Creed,

BDUs for Basics, and ABUs for staff, correct?

There still seems to be some confusion circling about this subject. Some sources are reporting that OHWG was going to obtain ABUs for every "member" in the Wing; others say just cadets; others say it's first-come, first-serve. A lot of scuttlebutt in the air.

- OHWG/SM

As an Ohio Wing Encampment staff member, I have received no word on ABUs for staff at Encampment (then again, I'll be in a flight suit most of the time).

At this time, the quantity of ABUs being sent to the Wings is TBD. Wing LG will be handling distribution of ABUs and there will be a process to help get cadets BDUs from existing stockpiles around the Wing - your squadron commander will have something from the group commander in a few days.

Like I said, sounds like the usual scuttlebutt and bad gouge. Somebody knows, and they told someone else, who told five people, and now you have 20 different answers.

I know there was a lot of talk about at the Wing Conference about ABUs, and I'm sure it was brought up in just about every classroom solely because of the fact that I heard several individuals come out of their classes and talking in the hallway about "No, they said this"..."Really? Because they just told us this..."

I already sent out the email to my cadets to tell them that while ABUs are phasing in, we don't have a lot of information to share at the unit level at this point, and to stop asking questions. We are working on collecting everyone's uniform sizes just to have in our own files in the event that we can assist down the road with uniform items, but nobody is being told they're going to be given anything nor that they must wear this/that after the effective date for ABU wear.

But it's amazing how you can gather 200+ people into one building and apparently everyone heard something different. I don't envy the amount of nagging you must be getting as the new Group/CC (especially considering it's my group...muwahahaha)

Good job collecting cadet sizes!

I will be facilitating the collection and distribution of BDUs within the group for those cadets that need them for Encampment - that will be coming out in a few days.

[Brad]

I just heard that ABUs are not authorized for wear at the NYWG encampment in July. ... Is this allowed?

I would have to say yes. CAPR 3901 Table 1-1:

...Choice of which combination is appropriate depends on the commander's direction and the type of event.

AKA "uniform of the day."

[Eclipse]

Except...unless CAP issues the uniform, they can't requires its wear for cadets.

So...a mom who just spent $150 on ABUs would be well within here rights to complain
unless CAP issues a full set of BDUs.  BTDT (in similar situations).

If 39-1 is going to be the fallback for complaints, you have to expect them to read the rest of it.

For the record I don't disagree with the idea at all, for uniformity, reducing expenses (Curry & CEAP), and
just general common sense, but by August this is going to be a hot topic. NHQ would have done everyone
a favor by waiting until after summer activity season to approve the wear.

[Майор Хаткевич]

The odds of a BRAND NEW cadet member joining in June 2016 and attending the NYW encampment in July 2016...slim to none.

Have two from our squadron.

+1  I had a cadet who pushed Curry in 3 weeks to make encampment - remember, at the bare minimum
of membership requirements they've been attending meetings for 3+ weeks before the app is submitted,
that's probably when their motivation is at the highest point, and if the unit is doing beta PT, they don't even have to
make a number, just an attempt.

Not only that, but in the past, we routinely prepped high speed recruits for Spring Encampment within a few weeks.


ALL they need from the unit is/was a PT and a CD. Everything else was online. Motivated cadet joining within a month of an Encampment? With the proper motivation, we'll get them there.

[Brad]

Except...unless CAP issues the uniform, they can't requires its wear for cadets.

So...a mom who just spent $150 on ABUs would be well within here rights to complain
unless CAP issues a full set of BDUs.  BTDT (in similar situations).

If 39-1 is going to be the fallback for complaints, you have to expect them to read the rest of it.

Right, but the minimum uniform is Class B, not ABUs/BDUs, so the reply would be, "Don't have BDUs? Ok then, wear the Class B you were required to get."

[kwe1009]

I would not be encouraging any new cadet or Senior Member to purchase ABUs right now.  At least in my Wing, BDUs are very easy to come by within many squadrons and a good number of surplus stores throughout the state.  Despite having 2 USAF bases, there isn't many ABUs in surplus stores.  Many cadets who join today or are current members will not even be in CAP when the BDU is phased out in 5 years.  Also, we have many squadrons who just created and/or ordered new squadron t-shirts in the last year and they are not authorized with the ABU.  A majority of our squadrons also have squadron hats which again are not authorized with the ABU. 

Because of all of this I have been encouraging parents and cadets to just get the BDU.  They are much cheaper than the ABU, more comfortable and easier to find.  Of course there will be new members who will jump on the ABU bandwagon but that is their choice and they should be aware that there are events they may not be able to participate in just yet if they don't have BDUs.

Except...unless CAP issues the uniform, they can't requires its wear for cadets.

So...a mom who just spent $150 on ABUs would be well within here rights to complain
unless CAP issues a full set of BDUs.  BTDT (in similar situations).

If 39-1 is going to be the fallback for complaints, you have to expect them to read the rest of it.

You are correct but there is no requirement for a cadet to attend encampment (it is required for promotion but not to maintain membership) or any other CAP event.  If they want to attend they will purchase the uniform mandated by the activity commander.  Only the blue uniform was ever issued by CAP to cadets (as far I can tell) but encampments and ES events require BDUs.  It is up to the cadet and their family to decide if they want to purchase the uniform to attend events that require something other than Blues.

[TheSkyHornet]

Again, it plays back to consistency.

What happens is cadets in one unit will talk to cadets in another unit and suddenly "the rules changed." No, they didn't. You're referring to SOPs, not regulations.

Or you get someone who hasn't read the regs and starts spewing misinformation. There's absolutely nothing wrong with saying "I don't know, but I will find out." But you start getting into those cases where someone believes something to be true and never checks the documentation to verify it.

That said, I'm an advocate for pushing the working uniform over the dress uniform if we're going to mandate only one. We do far more work in the working uniform than in dress attire. But, on the flip side, the Blues is the Air Force uniform (yeah, yeah, "Air Force-style," whatever) and it definitely looks sharp for a military formal occasion. So, it becomes a predicament. But function before fashion. Yes, that can be a subjective statement. Personally, I would like to see cadets own both (now you're playing into the pockets of the parents). This is not a cheap organization by any means; I think we all know that.

Common sense plays a huge role here. No person in their right mind would tell cadets to go out into the field in Blues because they don't have the ABU/BDU. Wear the civilian equivalent in that case (jeans/work pants, boots, yadda yadda). Still, you can't regulate common sense. The regs are there to say "Here's the minimum protocol you must abide by (or the extent to which you can force something); the rest is standard operating procedure at the Wing and subsequent levels."

Our training schedules all have a caveat on them: "Cadets who do not have the UOD shall wear the civilian equivalent. FDU is not authorized." Plan and simple.

"But I don't have a blouse/shirt."
"Don't wear the uniform, please."
"I don't have my name tapes sewn own."
"Don't wear the uniform, please."
"What do I wear instead?"
"Civilian equivalent."
"But I'll be out of place."
"You'll be more out of place wearing a military uniform that is out of regs. Do not wear articles that are out of regulation to my meeting."

Problem solved.

On a final note, we've had that debate about the whole "You need to have a uniform to promote to C/Amn and achieve the Curry." It's right there in the regulations. But you need your Curry to receive your Blues voucher. It's FUBAR'd. Now, I come out of the OHWG Conference to hear that this question was brought up and people were told "Don't worry about that; just promote them when they're ready."

And suddenly the regs get tossed aside. And boom goes the consistency.

I would not be encouraging any new cadet or Senior Member to purchase ABUs right now.  At least in my Wing, BDUs are very easy to come by within many squadrons and a good number of surplus stores throughout the state.  Despite having 2 USAF bases, there isn't many ABUs in surplus stores.  Many cadets who join today or are current members will not even be in CAP when the BDU is phased out in 5 years.  Also, we have many squadrons who just created and/or ordered new squadron t-shirts in the last year and they are not authorized with the ABU.  A majority of our squadrons also have squadron hats which again are not authorized with the ABU. 

Because of all of this I have been encouraging parents and cadets to just get the BDU.  They are much cheaper than the ABU, more comfortable and easier to find.  Of course there will be new members who will jump on the ABU bandwagon but

Except...unless CAP issues the uniform, they can't requires its wear for cadets.

So...a mom who just spent $150 on ABUs would be well within here rights to complain
unless CAP issues a full set of BDUs.  BTDT (in similar situations).

If 39-1 is going to be the fallback for complaints, you have to expect them to read the rest of it.

You are correct but there is no requirement for a cadet to attend encampment (it is required for promotion but not to maintain membership) or any other CAP event.  If they want to attend they will purchase the uniform mandated by the activity commander.  Only the blue uniform was ever issued by CAP to cadets (as far I can tell) but encampments and ES events require BDUs.  It is up to the cadet and their family to decide if they want to purchase the uniform to attend events that require something other than Blues.

Our next cadet training class is in September. We're planning to go ABU-recommended with that class. It's far enough out for everything to be resolved with the tapes and all. If we have to resort back to pushing BDUs, we can do that.

I am on the other side of the coin, not recommending BDU purchases. If the unit can help supply them, great. But I think you're going to have to answer that question by parents (and seniors) of "So, you're saying, I spend $50-$100 now so I have to spend another $100 later?" You can explain to them the whole 5-years thing, but they're not going to take that in on top of all of the other costs you're throwing at them with a new membership.

I don't like the idea of telling them to buy something cheaper now and replace it with something more expensive later. Buy what you need to buy so you don't have to shill out the extra bucks down the road. I find that's a real burden on people.