CAP Talk

And the date is 15 Jun 2016

OFFICE OF THE NATIONAL COMMANDER
CIVIL AIR PATROL
UNITED STATES AIR FORCE AUXILIARY
MAXWELL AIR FORCE BASE, ALABAMA 36112-5937

4 May 2016

MEMORANDUM FOR ALL CAP MEMBERS FROM: CAP/CC
SUBJECT:  CAP Transition to the Airman Battle Uniform (ABU)

1. I am pleased to announce that the Air Force has approved Civil Air Patrol's request to
transition to the Airman Battle Uniform. As the official auxiliary of the Air Force CAP has a long
history of wearing a USAF style uniform and our transition to the ABU once again brings us in line
with our parent service.

2. As a result of negotiations with the Army & Air Force Exchange Services (AAFES), CAP has also
been approved to receive a significant number of excess ABUs.  This will allow many CAP members to
receive the basic ABU shirt and pants at no cost. We are currently working with AAFES to take
possession of the excess uniforms and each Wing is establishing a distribution plan. We expect
these uniforms to be available to members in the field this summer.

3. The phase in period for wear of the ABU will begin on 15 June 2016. Members will wear the ABU
with the dark blue tapes and insignia as outlined in the attached wear instructions. Vanguard will
begin accepting orders for the new devices on 15 June 2016. The Battle Dress Uniform (BDU) may
continue to be worn until the mandatory phase out date of 15 June 2021. CAP will also begin to
transition to dark blue tapes on the Corporate field uniform and BDUs with a mandatory wear date of
15 June 2021.  Members are not required to change the tapes on existing uniforms until the
mandatory wear date; however, all devices on the uniform must match. The attached wear instructions
will constitute regulatory guidance on the wear of the ABU until a revision to CAP Manual 39-1 is
released.

3. If you have any comments or concerns, contact Ms Susan Parker, CAP/DP at (334) 953- 7748,
extension 212 or email sparker@capnhq.gov.




JOSEPH R. VAZQUEZ
Major General, CAP Commander

Atch
ABU Wear instructions

Our long national nightmare is over.

 :clap:

Yes!! The Chaos is over!!!

I'd like to say thank you to everyone involved in this process. I know it has not been easy.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 05, 2016, 12:29:39 AM
Our long national nightmare is over has just begun.

FTFY

;D

Quote from: NIN on May 05, 2016, 12:38:47 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on May 05, 2016, 12:29:39 AM
Our long national nightmare is over has just begun.

FTFY

;D

Seriously 5 years of even less uniformity then we have now.  CAP now has 4 different field uniforms, and will for the
whole career of many members.

Tan t-shirts (so no more unit t-shirts), black boots (hope all you guys saved the receipts), and apparently CAP cloth insignia now have colors?

At least berets are banned, that should be a lead balloon at Air Venture.

I also like that we can wear the parka and ABU fleece. Those will be nice.  8)

Quote from: Eclipse on May 05, 2016, 12:41:03 AM
At least berets are banned, that should be a lead balloon at Air Venture.

Its been done.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 05, 2016, 12:41:03 AM

Quote from: NIN on May 05, 2016, 12:38:47 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on May 05, 2016, 12:29:39 AM
Our long national nightmare is over has just begun.

FTFY

;D

Seriously 5 years of even less uniformity then we have now.  CAP now has 4 different field uniforms, and will for the
whole career of many members.

Tan t-shirts (so no more unit t-shirts), black boots (hope all you guys saved the receipts), and apparently CAP cloth insignia now have colors?

At least berets are banned, that should be a lead balloon at Air Venture.

Wasn't it you that said 95% of the membership will be in ABUs by the end of week one?

Guess I need to double down on slimming down. And hope they fix the black boots at some point in the next 5 years.

Well done Civil Air Patrol.

This is the most professional and sharp looking field-type uniform that you have approved/issued for many years.  Yes there will be a phase-in period... with the awkwardness that usually comes along with such transitions... but this was done very well.  distinctive enough (in the ways that it has to be) from the Air Force ABU... but looks great none-the-less.

Uniforms (if worn) are an important part of an organization's public image.  This is a great and professional look to be putting out to the public at large.  Two things that really affect the way an organization is perceived & respected by the public at large =  (1.) How well trained & capable they are at doing their job, and (2.) a very good, sharp, and professional appearance.

Props to the Civil Air Patrol today.  Way to go.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 05, 2016, 12:41:03 AM
At least berets are banned, that should be a lead balloon at Air Venture.

And Hawk Mountain, so are the orange caps.

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 05, 2016, 01:36:35 AM
Wasn't it you that said 95% of the membership will be in ABUs by the end of week one?

Facetiously, probably.  But the fact remains that less then 1/2 of the adult members can wear this uniform,
though the lack of Big and tall sizes (at least today) will be more of a limiting factor then a scale.

Quote from: supertigerCH on May 05, 2016, 01:40:02 AM
Uniforms (if worn) are an important part of an organization's public image.

Agreed, CAP doesn't have one.  It now has 4.  And by the time this phase-in period is over, the USAF will have long
said goodbye to the ABU and moved on to "next", whatever that entails.

So I saw that the Commander's insignia, which was made mandatory, is now non-mandatory again. Wonder if that was on purpose?

Quote from: Eclipse on May 05, 2016, 12:41:03 AM


At least berets are banned, that should be a lead balloon at Air Venture.

Berets are banned? Huh.

I can definitely see some cadets quitting over that because they can't wear their precious beret anymore. I'm going to NBB this summer, but I still fail to see the point of the beret.

Quote from: thebeggerpie on May 05, 2016, 02:03:40 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on May 05, 2016, 12:41:03 AM


At least berets are banned, that should be a lead balloon at Air Venture.

Berets are banned? Huh.

I can definitely see some cadets quitting over that because they can't wear their precious beret anymore. I'm going to NBB this summer, but I still fail to see the point of the beret.

Yep, all the funny hats are banned

QuoteHeadgear. The ABU cap is the only authorized headgear with this uniform.

I'm my squadron's supply officer....The flood gates of hell have opened up boys and girls.

I have 3 words to say.."BRING IT ON" My LG Officer has already emailed the squadron to say relax and let us do the work, before you get worked up. It will take time to outfit our members..71 strong.

Quote from: thebeggerpie on May 05, 2016, 02:03:40 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on May 05, 2016, 12:41:03 AM


At least berets are banned, that should be a lead balloon at Air Venture.

Berets are banned? Huh.

I can definitely see some cadets quitting over that because they can't wear their precious beret anymore. I'm going to NBB this summer, but I still fail to see the point of the beret.

If the only thing keeping those cadets in CAP is a beret then I can tell you they won't be missed.

Quote from: PHall on May 05, 2016, 02:19:52 AM

Quote from: thebeggerpie on May 05, 2016, 02:03:40 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on May 05, 2016, 12:41:03 AM


At least berets are banned, that should be a lead balloon at Air Venture.

Berets are banned? Huh.

I can definitely see some cadets quitting over that because they can't wear their precious beret anymore. I'm going to NBB this summer, but I still fail to see the point of the beret.

If the only thing keeping those cadets in CAP is a beret then I can tell you they won't be missed.

Actually, that's what I'm happy about. I've met one too many ribbon chasers versus Cadets that actually want to give something to the program for getting something.

We got the digitalz. Game over.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 05, 2016, 01:51:29 AM

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 05, 2016, 01:36:35 AM
Wasn't it you that said 95% of the membership will be in ABUs by the end of week one?

Facetiously, probably.  But the fact remains that less then 1/2 of the adult members can wear this uniform,
though the lack of Big and tall sizes (at least today) will be more of a limiting factor then a scale.

See, you say that, but my experience is opposite. Of those members that I see in a field uniform, I'm in the far, far minority with my BBDUs.

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 05, 2016, 02:30:07 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on May 05, 2016, 01:51:29 AM

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 05, 2016, 01:36:35 AM
Wasn't it you that said 95% of the membership will be in ABUs by the end of week one?

Facetiously, probably.  But the fact remains that less then 1/2 of the adult members can wear this uniform,
though the lack of Big and tall sizes (at least today) will be more of a limiting factor then a scale.

See, you say that, but my experience is opposite. Of those members that I see in a field uniform, I'm in the far, far minority with my BBDUs.

And some of those should be in BBDUs, and the rest stick to the polo, thus don't do field work.

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 05, 2016, 02:30:07 AM
See, you say that, but my experience is opposite. Of those members that I see in a field uniform, I'm in the far, far minority with my BBDUs.

I don't doubt that, but it doesn't mean they are actually allowed to wear the camo.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 05, 2016, 02:47:43 AM

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 05, 2016, 02:30:07 AM
See, you say that, but my experience is opposite. Of those members that I see in a field uniform, I'm in the far, far minority with my BBDUs.

I don't doubt that, but it doesn't mean they are actually allowed to wear the camo.

And here I was, hoping approval won't come for another 3-4 months, so that I could actually be in H&W...

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 05, 2016, 02:50:33 AM
And here I was, hoping approval won't come for another 3-4 months, so that I could actually be in H&W...

Don't worry. Even though Vanguard is supposed to start "accepting" orders for the new tapes, etc., on 15 June, it will probably take them another 3-4 months to produce tapes of equal dimensions, correct thread, etc.  >:D

Kinda wish this would have been a moment to break the Big V monopoly...

Just sent an email to all of my cadet parents to head off the RUMINT that is sure to be headed their way.  I told them to sit tight until the details on the agreement with AAFES are worked out and that the phase in period is longer than most cadet careers.

The cadet meeting tomorrow night ought to be fun!

Quote from: Eclipse on May 05, 2016, 12:29:39 AMOur long national nightmare is over.

I'd say it's about to begin, for reasons others have mentioned.  And also because this approval undoubtedly means that Big Blue will soon abandon the ABU in favor of the OCP/Multicam--which means that the whining that we're not in the same uniform as the AF will cease only for a short while.

Quote from: supertigerCH on May 05, 2016, 01:40:02 AM
This is the most professional and sharp looking field-type uniform that you have approved/issued for many years. 

Really? Is that why everyone in the USAF hates them?

Quote from: Mustang on May 05, 2016, 03:20:54 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on May 05, 2016, 12:29:39 AMOur long national nightmare is over.

I'd say it's about to begin, for reasons others have mentioned.  And also because this approval undoubtedly means that Big Blue will soon abandon the ABU in favor of the ODU/Multicam--which means that the whining that we're not in the same uniform as the AF will cease only for a short while.

Quote from: supertigerCH on May 05, 2016, 01:40:02 AM
This is the most professional and sharp looking field-type uniform that you have approved/issued for many years. 

Really? Is that why everyone in the USAF hates them?

The rip stop version, aka RABU, seems to be fairly well liked. Much, much lighter material.

Quote from: Mustang on May 05, 2016, 03:20:54 AM

[/size]

Quote from: Eclipse on May 05, 2016, 12:29:39 AM[size=]Our long national nightmare is over.[/size]

I'd say it's about to begin, for reasons others have mentioned.  And also because this approval undoubtedly means that Big Blue will soon abandon the ABU in favor of the ODU/Multicam--which means that the whining that we're not in the same uniform as the AF will cease only for a short while.

[/size]

Quote from: supertigerCH on May 05, 2016, 01:40:02 AM
This is the most professional and sharp looking field-type uniform that you have approved/issued for many years. 

Really? Is that why everyone in the USAF hates them?[/size]

Because it is the sacred right of a soldier to complain.

The commander has issued the instructions.

Now lets see how many people salute and execute.

Where is that letter posted on National?

Quote from: arajca on May 05, 2016, 03:34:41 AM
Where is that letter posted on National?

Doesn't appear to be. Probably tomorrow.

Now what are we going to complain about?!

;)

Quote from: goblin on May 05, 2016, 03:50:40 AM
Now what are we going to complain about?!

;)

Black boots. Tan shirts. Lack of berets (Facebook crying already in progress).

Quote from: Mustang on May 05, 2016, 03:20:54 AM
I'd say it's about to begin, for reasons others have mentioned.  And also because this approval undoubtedly means that Big Blue will soon abandon the ABU in favor of the OCP/Multicam--which means that the whining that we're not in the same uniform as the AF will cease only for a short while.

AF is not transitioning any time soon to anything else.  Please cite your source?

Quote from: JeffDG on May 05, 2016, 02:05:06 AM
Yep, all the funny hats are banned

Well not until 2021 that is.  Cadets can still wear the beret and other funny hates with the BDUs and seniors can still wear the beret with either the BDUs or BBDUs :)

Quote from: ProdigalJim on May 05, 2016, 01:52:53 AM
So I saw that the Commander's insignia, which was made mandatory, is now non-mandatory again. Wonder if that was on purpose?

For ABUs at least it is non-mandatory.  Still mandatory for the AF-style service dress and BDUs.  Nevertheless, I wonder why it is non-mandatory for the ABUs, while the USAF still mandates its commander's pin for the ABUs. 

Subtitle F, Section 352 of the 2014 NDAA contains language pointing to a requirement for all services to:

"eliminate the development and fielding of Armed Force-specific combat and camouflage utility uniforms and families of uniforms in order to adopt and field a common combat and camouflage utility uniform or family of uniforms for specific combat environments to be used by all members of the Armed Forces."

However, further down, under exceptions;

Exceptions.--Nothing in subsection (b) shall be construed as--
[...]
(6) prohibiting the continued fielding or use of pre-existing service-specific or operation-specific combat uniforms as long as the uniforms continue to meet operational 
requirements.


If one doesn't read the whole thing, one gets an image that we will all be in the same uniform soon. Realistically, all it's said is that on the day the 2014 NDAA went active,
no new uniforms could be developed unless it was a joint venture for all services, and no uniforms could be fielded unless they were already in use by another Service,
or were the product of said joint venture.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/house-bill/3304/text (https://www.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/house-bill/3304/text)


This ultimately means that the ABU may continue in production for a number of years, but can only be replaced by the Scorpion/Multicam OCPs, either MARPAT pattern,
or the Navy adaptations of MARPAT. A lot of us will dream for the Multicam for years. It's definitely a better match in many peoples opinions. 

Quote from: Eclipse on May 05, 2016, 01:51:29 AM

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 05, 2016, 01:36:35 AM
Wasn't it you that said 95% of the membership will be in ABUs by the end of week one?

Facetiously, probably.  But the fact remains that less then 1/2 of the adult members can wear this uniform,
though the lack of Big and tall sizes (at least today) will be more of a limiting factor then a scale.

Quote from: supertigerCH on May 05, 2016, 01:40:02 AM
Uniforms (if worn) are an important part of an organization's public image.

Agreed, CAP doesn't have one.  It now has 4.  And by the time this phase-in period is over, the USAF will have long
said goodbye to the ABU and moved on to "next", whatever that entails.

Bob, change is inevitable. I've been watching it happen since 1964 in CAP. I've worn well over a dozen different uniform combinations over the years, and I don't think I've EVER seen a time when we weren't in some sort of uniform transition period. If you expect that to be different, you must be smokin' something good.

I get it - but change for change's sake wastes initiative and resources.

It's postured that the uniform is part of the brand and the image is important, and
then the image is diluted, to no one's benefit, for an extended period of time.

Where is the uniformity when one cadet in ranks is in a completely different uniform?

What is the brand image that lines up 4 senior members in different color combos,
all who are 100% correct?

How is this Efficient or Effective?

If it hurts your sensibilities that one cadet is not in the same uniform....solve THAT problem.

Quote from: lordmonar on May 05, 2016, 05:25:25 AM
If it hurts your sensibilities that one cadet

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 05, 2016, 03:39:06 AM

Quote from: arajca on May 05, 2016, 03:34:41 AM
Where is that letter posted on National?

All commanders received heads up today. The letter will be posted tomorrow. The letter includes the uniform illustrations. We will have to switch to dark blue tapes.
Doesn't appear to be. Probably tomorrow.

Quote from: lordmonar on May 05, 2016, 05:25:25 AM
If it hurts your sensibilities that one cadet is not in the same uniform....solve THAT problem.

I'm all ears as to how to solve it, especially if they aren't from my unit or even wing...

I am really excited for the ABU's! They look really nice and professional. My only problem is that the switch may be costly.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 05, 2016, 05:11:44 AM
It's postured that the uniform is part of the brand and the image is important, and
then the image is diluted, to no one's benefit, for an extended period of time.

More than the transition to another uniform, I think continuing to prevent members from wearing certain uniforms really hurts our uniformity and brand as an organization. A transition to the BBDU, a decent looking uniform, for all our members would have solved part of that problem.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 05, 2016, 12:21:21 PM
More than the transition to another uniform, I think continuing to prevent members from wearing certain uniforms really hurts our uniformity and brand as an organization. A transition to the BBDU, a decent looking uniform, for all our members would have solved part of that problem.

Well, we're not.  And the more you bring it up, the less likely it is to happen.

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 05, 2016, 02:50:33 AM
And here I was, hoping approval won't come for another 3-4 months, so that I could actually be in H&W...

You have like 5 years, you know....

Quote from: Mustang on May 05, 2016, 03:20:54 AMReally? Is that why everyone in the USAF hates them?

Airmen would complain if you gave them access to an open bar and free food.  It's just the nature of the beast. 

QuoteYep, all the funny hats are banned

The sooner the "Please don't shoot me! I'm not a deer!" orange ball cap goes away the better.  LOL  When I first started looking into CAP I was like "WTF?" when I saw those. 

So I guess I get to wear ABUs after all since they were phased in after I got out of the AF.  At least that settles the question of what to get.  LOL

YES!!! AT LAST, WE GET ABU'S!!!

Quote from: NIN on May 05, 2016, 12:38:24 PM

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 05, 2016, 02:50:33 AM
And here I was, hoping approval won't come for another 3-4 months, so that I could actually be in H&W...

You have like 5 years, you know...

Technically I have no time limits...BBDUs and all.

Was just hoping to beat the punch.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 05, 2016, 05:11:44 AM
Where is the uniformity when one cadet in ranks is in a completely different uniform?

What is the brand image that lines up 4 senior members in different color combos,
all who are 100% correct?

How is this Efficient or Effective?

You know, having been thru this before (pickle-suits to BDUs), the whole "uniformity in ranks" thing is a complete non-starter argument.   And my experience was that the people who shouted the loudest about this  were the people who didn't know exactly what the hell they were talking about. 

Real live no kidding statements, circa 1991: "This will be the END of Civil Air Patrol if we have cadets in formation in both BDUs and fatigues!"  and "There will be a breakdown in military discipline if you have people in two different uniforms!!" 

If I'm not mistaken, 25 years later CAP is still here, and this Great Prognosticator isn't.   Funny how that works. 

(and as I remember, that guy had zero military experience, so I'm not 100% sure where he was getting his information from WRT the so-called "breakdown in military discipline" to be making these grand pronouncements.  Those of us who were in the military were like "Nobody cares what clothes you wear to formation.  If 'military discipline' [whatever that means] is going to "break down" due to the color of a cadet's uniform compared to others, well,  maybe we have other problems. Like you.")

Keep in mind, too, that this was during the First Gulf War, when people were  going to Saudi Arabia to actually fight a war wearing BDUs, chocolate-chip desert cammies, etc.  IOW, there were literally situations where units did not have the same uniform for everybody.  Green nametapes instead of desert, woodland camo helmet covers with desert uniforms, blah, blah, blah.  And oh, hey, look:  the guy in deserts here and they guy in BDUs over there did exactly what they needed to do regardless of the color of their uniform.

And if "brand identity thru uniformity" is a problem, well, I'll just leave this right here:

(http://24.media.tumblr.com/UpifQWLkVdq19jglVzC5lwsR_400.jpg)

Bottom line: We'll live.

Hey!

Some messages were removed!

I'm happy CAP is moving to the ABU to put us (well, some of us) in the uniform if our parent organization.  But this was a perfect opportunity to reduce all the clutter on the field uniform and they dropped the ball on that.
I've been to NBB a couple times and I could care less that that all the 'funny' hats have been removed. But they should have done the same with the plethora of patches. 

Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

Hey, that's super. Great new spiffy uniform so that CAP can mirror big AF. Now that we have our wardrobe all set, can we focus on the missions now?

Well, I am surprised the word came out now, I was expecting at the National Conference.  But it has been said, so it shall be done.  I have to agree with the arguments against those who say that having cadets and seniors in different uniforms is a non starter.  Remember we're being told that CAP is getting a significant number of excess ABUs.  If all units get them then the time frame of people not being dressed alike will be minimal.  And for those where it could be a problem it may not be for long. 

Quote from: winterg on May 05, 2016, 01:43:22 PM
But this was a perfect opportunity to reduce all the clutter on the field uniform and they dropped the ball on that.

They started to move in that direction by eliminating the right shoulder patch as well as the ES patch worn over the name tape.  At the same time the patches on the pockets remain as they always have OPTIONAL.  Nothing is forcing you to put something on them.  I for one am thinking of wearing just the basics when I transition in a few months once I ditch the excess padding.  Even on my BBDU I think I may cut down when I transition that over to the new tapes next month. 

Quote from: NIN on May 05, 2016, 01:21:12 PM

You know, having been thru this before (pickle-suits to BDUs), the whole "uniformity in ranks" thing is a complete non-starter argument.   And my experience was that the people who shouted the loudest about this  were the people who didn't know exactly what the hell they were talking about. 

Real live no kidding statements, circa 1991: "This will be the END of Civil Air Patrol if we have cadets in formation in both BDUs and fatigues!"  and "There will be a breakdown in military discipline if you have people in two different uniforms!!" 

If I'm not mistaken, 25 years later CAP is still here, and this Great Prognosticator isn't.   Funny how that works. 

That was exactly my experience as well. Langley Composite Squadron. A billion years ago. I have a picture somewhere of my dad and I before I left for Kadena Cadet Squadron's encampment at the Kadena AB NCO Academy in 88 or 89. I'm wearing pickle suit, he's wearing BDU's (of course he was AF and not a CAP SM.)

Quote from: Angus on May 05, 2016, 02:00:50 PM

Quote from: winterg on May 05, 2016, 01:43:22 PM
But this was a perfect opportunity to reduce all the clutter on the field uniform and they dropped the ball on that.

They started to move in that direction by eliminating the right shoulder patch as well as the ES patch worn over the name tape.  At the same time the patches on the pockets remain as they always have OPTIONAL.  Nothing is forcing you to put something on them.  I for one am thinking of wearing just the basics when I transition in a few months once I ditch the excess padding.  Even on my BBDU I think I may cut down when I transition that over to the new tapes next month.

All you are required to have is 3 grade insignia, name and branch tapes. Nothing else HAS to be on the uniform. Wing patches are (now everywhere?) optional. NCSA/Squadron? Optional. Badges? Optional.

Yes.  I realize it is optional. We all  do. But given the option, some will always wear the maximum allowed, not the minimum.  My opinion is that the overall appearance of our field uniform, as an organization, would have been better served if this major uniform change was used to go in a more minimalist direction.  Again, I know what I am allowed to leave off my uniform.  No need to keep pointing it out.  LoL

Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

Wing patches are not intended to be "optional at the member's discretion" but rather "optional at the wing's discretion" nationally.

You can have 100 guys standing in formation and not everybody is wearing all their qual badges (those are a "personal" qualification).  Some people may not possess qualification badges, even.  But they should all have the same shoulder patch (an "organizational" qualification if you will..)

I don't know of any (off the top of my head) wing that has eliminated wing patches entirely, or has made them "member optional." (there may well be, but I can't point to one at the moment).

Thank yooooooo

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 05, 2016, 02:39:40 PM
All you are required to have is 3 grade insignia, name and branch tapes. Nothing else HAS to be on the uniform. Wing patches are (now everywhere?) optional. NCSA/Squadron? Optional. Badges? Optional.

Wing Patches are optional at the Wing CC's discretion.

Some badges are optional while others are not (e.g. aviation and chaplain). 

Now all we need is sage green boots

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

Quote from: winterg on May 05, 2016, 02:44:06 PM
Yes.  I realize it is optional. We all  do. But given the option, some will always wear the maximum allowed, not the minimum.  My opinion is that the overall appearance of our field uniform, as an organization, would have been better served if this major uniform change was used to go in a more minimalist direction.  Again, I know what I am allowed to leave off my uniform.  No need to keep pointing it out.  LoL

yeah, there are some people who want to watch the world bling.

:)

BTW, this is a salient point (not necessarily for the BDU/ABU discussion, but uniforms in general):

At one time, this was part of the overarching uniform concept or philosophy:

Quote from: CAPM 39-1, 1997
1-1. Basic Concept of the Civil Air Patrol (CAP) Uniform.
[...]
b. The basic concept of the CAP uniform is a plain, but distinctive, dress with a minimum number of badges,
insignia, and devices authorized for wear on it.
[...]

Emphasis mine.

CAP's guidance reflected similar language found in the USAF uniform directives of the time (and, I believe, even dating back to my time as a cadet in the early 1980s, but I don't have those manuals easily at hand).

It seems that in subsequent CAP uniform manuals, that concept of "minimum number of badges, insignia and devices" has "gone missing."

I'm not sure exactly when our philosophy changed, or when the underlying AFMAN/AFI changed, as well, but I do know that the current AFI 36-2903 reflects a slightly different philosophy. The USAF has even gotten away from a "minimum number of geegaws" and has now specified a maximum as well.

The USAF's overarching philosophy seems to have pivoted to a  "Plain, but with bling-bling" ethos.

Quote from: AFI 36-2903, 2014
1.1. Basic Philosophy and Enforceability.

1.1.1. The Air Force philosophy is that the uniform will be plain, distinctive, and standardized. This standardization includes a minimum and maximum number of authorized badges, insignia, and devices.
[...]

Emphasis mine.

At the same time, our guidance specifically indicates that our wear patterns (independent of CAP-distinctive insignia and wear) for the USAF-style should align with the overarching USAF guidance.

Quote from: CAPM 39-1, 2014
1.1. Basic Philosophy and Enforceability.

1.1.1 Philosophy.
 
  1.1.1.1. CAP's philosophy is to provide a distinctive and standard set of uniform items that provide a positive public image of the Corporation, build esprit de corps, and enhance professionalism.

  1.1.1.2. A significant representation of CAP's organizational heritage, as well as CAP's unique affiliation as the Auxiliary of the US Air Force (USAF), is the authorization for CAP members to wear CAP distinctive uniforms as well as uniforms similar to the US Air Force. CAP uses distinctive emblems, insignia, and badges to identify individuals wearing the USAF-style uniforms as CAP members.

1.1.1.2.1. CAP's USAF-style uniform policies will adhere to USAF standards found in the appropriate USAF instructions. Differences from USAF standards will be only those differences required to meet unique CAP requirements and allowed by USAF-approved exceptions. CAP honors our special relationship with the USAF through closely adhering to the policies set for the USAF's uniform.
[...]

Again, emphasis mine.

Our manual specifically suggests that apart from the CAP-distinctiveness (ie. insignia, badges, grade, etc), the standards, to include the wear philosophy, should be taken from the USAF directives.

Now, here's the hard part: the USAF has, with ABUs, specifically gotten away from the high degree of "multi-patched clown suit" that the BDUs were at the end of their tenure with them (I think anybody who was in the USAF at the end of the BDU era would agree.. Sq Patch, wing patch, badges, something over the nametag maybe, etc).

Unfortunately, our utility uniform wear pattern has kind of continued and even gotten a little more beyond the old USAF BDU wear pattern, because individually discerning the overarching wear philosophy of the USAF is very subjective.  We've gotten into a sort of "merit-badge culture" with our uniforms.  And for now, that's extended into the ABUs.

The discussions of why are best left for another time, but suffice to say, I think we can agree that once you open the door to a badge, patch, device, etc, its very, very hard to close that door later.  For a variety of reasons that aren't specific to actually wearing the uniform.

Quote from: youduho on May 05, 2016, 02:58:46 PM
Now all we need is sage green boots

Give it time.

True

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

I don't know how to feel about this. It is already bad enough when cadets show up to events or meetings in Blue BDUs sticking out like a sore thumb. Now we have to deal with cadets showing up in 3 different uniforms? How will it look at all the encampments for the next 5 years when a quarter or a half of the cadets have the new uniforms and the rest are still in BDUs? It will look silly and unprofessional to everyone involved.

The worst part for me is the fact the the cutoff date is FIVE years from now? Any cadet over 13 can say, "Forget it, I will be out of the program in 5 years, no need to buy a new uniform". The cadet will spend the rest of his career is BDUs. So for the next FIVE years we will have mixed uniform events. They really need to shorten it. If they are as confident as they sound about getting the shipments of free uniforms out to cadets, then there should be no need to have the transitional period take longer than 18 months.

I think the majority of cadets that will be wearing the new uniform right as it starts to roll out are brand new cadets that join after the transitional period starts. I iwll probably get the new uniform just because I am the CC at my squadron and I need to set the example, but how hard am I expected to push the new uniform? I either want no ABUs in my squadron or all ABUs. I would go crazy if we are split in uniforms, because it looks stupid having all these different cadet uniforms that cadets can show up in.

TL;DR

Mixed flights with both ABUs and BDUs will look dumb and unprofessional.
Having a 5 year transitional period is too long, 18 months should be fine to reduce mixed flights.
Change is bad :)

Quote from: Nickvr628 on May 05, 2016, 03:26:38 PM
I don't know how to feel about this. It is already bad enough when cadets show up to events or meetings in Blue BDUs sticking out like a sore thumb. Now we have to deal with cadets showing up in 3 different uniforms? How will it look at all the encampments for the next 5 years when a quarter or a half of the cadets have the new uniforms and the rest are still in BDUs? It will look silly and unprofessional to everyone involved.

The worst part for me is the fact the the cutoff date is FIVE years from now? Any cadet over 13 can say, "Forget it, I will be out of the program in 5 years, no need to buy a new uniform". The cadet will spend the rest of his career is BDUs. So for the next FIVE years we will have mixed uniform events. They really need to shorten it. If they are as confident as they sound about getting the shipments of free uniforms out to cadets, then there should be no need to have the transitional period take longer than 18 months.

I think the majority of cadets that will be wearing the new uniform right as it starts to roll out are brand new cadets that join after the transitional period starts. I iwll probably get the new uniform just because I am the CC at my squadron and I need to set the example, but how hard am I expected to push the new uniform? I either want no ABUs in my squadron or all ABUs. I would go crazy if we are split in uniforms, because it looks stupid having all these different cadet uniforms that cadets can show up in.

TL;DR

Mixed flights with both ABUs and BDUs will look dumb and unprofessional.
Having a 5 year transitional period is too long, 18 months should be fine to reduce mixed flights.
Change is bad :)

1. BBDUs are only authorized for cadets over 18 who don't meet H/W or grooming I believe, so it's pretty unlikely that you should have a cadet who is legitimately wearing BBDUs. And even then, they're already different than those wearing BDUs, so I fail to see how THEY are the problem in the ABU transition. In fact, it would be pretty easy for someone to take offense at your comment - "If it weren't for those fatties sticking out like a sore thumb, we would have a cohesive unit!"
2. The supply chain on surplus ABUs is opening from AAFES. As soon as a unit gets access to it, the commander can supply everyone ABUs and say "OK, the new UOD is ABUs". I suppose tapes and sewing would be an issue but really that's a lot less of an issue than buying new ABUs.

This is not the doom you are looking for. We will live. It is time.

Cadets over 18, who are outside of H&W still need to maintain grooming.

Judging from the transition from Fatigues to BDU, the effective rate of ABU adoption will be about 18 months, as you want.  I predict that In 2 years, BDUs will be rare in most places, and in 3 almost forgotten.   When the phase-in periods ends, it will be with a wimper and everyone will have been in ABU for some time.

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 05, 2016, 03:36:04 PM

Quote from: Nickvr628 on May 05, 2016, 03:26:38 PM
I don't know how to feel about this. It is already bad enough when cadets show up to events or meetings in Blue BDUs sticking out like a sore thumb. Now we have to deal with cadets showing up in 3 different uniforms? How will it look at all the encampments for the next 5 years when a quarter or a half of the cadets have the new uniforms and the rest are still in BDUs? It will look silly and unprofessional to everyone involved.

The worst part for me is the fact the the cutoff date is FIVE years from now? Any cadet over 13 can say, "Forget it, I will be out of the program in 5 years, no need to buy a new uniform". The cadet will spend the rest of his career is BDUs. So for the next FIVE years we will have mixed uniform events. They really need to shorten it. If they are as confident as they sound about getting the shipments of free uniforms out to cadets, then there should be no need to have the transitional period take longer than 18 months.

I think the majority of cadets that will be wearing the new uniform right as it starts to roll out are brand new cadets that join after the transitional period starts. I iwll probably get the new uniform just because I am the CC at my squadron and I need to set the example, but how hard am I expected to push the new uniform? I either want no ABUs in my squadron or all ABUs. I would go crazy if we are split in uniforms, because it looks stupid having all these different cadet uniforms that cadets can show up in.

TL;DR

Mixed flights with both ABUs and BDUs will look dumb and unprofessional.
Having a 5 year transitional period is too long, 18 months should be fine to reduce mixed flights.
Change is bad :)

1. BBDUs are only authorized for cadets over 18 who don't meet H/W or grooming I believe, so it's pretty unlikely that you should have a cadet who is legitimately wearing BBDUs. And even then, they're already different than those wearing BDUs, so I fail to see how THEY are the problem in the ABU transition. In fact, it would be pretty easy for someone to take offense at your comment - "If it weren't for those fatties sticking out like a sore thumb, we would have a cohesive unit!"
2. The supply chain on surplus ABUs is opening from AAFES. As soon as a unit gets access to it, the commander can supply everyone ABUs and say "OK, the new UOD is ABUs". I suppose tapes and sewing would be an issue but really that's a lot less of an issue than buying new ABUs.

This is not the doom you are looking for. We will live. It is time.

As a wing LG, I have not ANYTHING from national regarding how the supply chain from AAFES is supposed to work. I am waiting for the deluge of emails and phone calls about how to get the free ABUs to start rolling in when the vast membership gets wind of it. My plan is to have them call National.

Quote from: Nickvr628 on May 05, 2016, 03:26:38 PM
I don't know how to feel about this. It is already bad enough when cadets show up to events or meetings in Blue BDUs sticking out like a sore thumb. Now we have to deal with cadets showing up in 3 different uniforms? How will it look at all the encampments for the next 5 years when a quarter or a half of the cadets have the new uniforms and the rest are still in BDUs? It will look silly and unprofessional to everyone involved.

As I've stated previously, we went thru this in 1991 when BDUs were authorized.

The switchover was substantially immediate or what seemed to be pretty close to it.

We had an encampment coming up (an encampment that was also our first encampment not at our usual facility in near 20 years, just to add that wrinkle into the mix) and people were like "OMG! ANARCHY! DOGS AND CATS! LIVING TOGETHER! MASS HYSTERIA!" 

I can't find a single photo from that encampment showing everybody in formation, but my (somewhat jaded/faded) recollection of that time was that something like 98% of the encampment showed up in BDUs. It was like the BDU fairy waved her wand over the encampment. *poof* "Here you go.  Chaos averted."

But even people who showed up in fatigues it was like "Meh, no big deal."   Somefolks who were wrapped around the axle about things like "Inspection Standards" had their undies in a wad for awhile about it. 

Actual conversation:
Officer: "There are less things to inspect on this uniform than fatigues. I mean, we can't even tell if someone's gigline is straight in BDUs!  The entire encampment will fall into disarray due to missing giglines!  And buttons! Oh god, buttons!"   
Me: (the encampment Training Officer) "Oh, less things to inspect? That means you'll have the daily uniform inspections done quicker. Awesome. I'll block out less time for that, then." 

Ever see someone's head explode?

QuoteThe worst part for me is the fact the the cutoff date is FIVE years from now? Any cadet over 13 can say, "Forget it, I will be out of the program in 5 years, no need to buy a new uniform". The cadet will spend the rest of his career is BDUs. So for the next FIVE years we will have mixed uniform events. They really need to shorten it. If they are as confident as they sound about getting the shipments of free uniforms out to cadets, then there should be no need to have the transitional period take longer than 18 months.

There are more reasons to extend that transitional period than just the availability of the actual ABUs to the field.

When transitioning to different uniform insignia items, there are aspects of our arrangements with Vanguard that ensure that Vanguard gets compensated for unsold obsolete uniform insignia by CAP. So if we made a change and said "OK, in 18 months, ABUs for all. Dark blue name tags for all! Dark blue insignia for all!"  CAP would "buy back" from Vanguard remaining stocks of ultramarine insignia. At least, at this rate, they will still continue to sell down any remaining "BDU only" insignia and either run out of, or only have to produce very small numbers of, replacement ultramarine insignia before the mandatory transition.

Some people will continue to buy (now) and wear (later) ultramarine right up to the transition dates, and that will allow the existing stocks to be pared down to a minimal level.

It will also give people the opportunity to "wear out" uniforms that are only worn 2-3 times a month, not daily for 52 weeks a year, and replace with "the new hotness" when its more economically feasible.  I don't know about you, but my BDUs last a nice long time because I baby them, and only wear them for 5-7 hours a month.  Will I switch right away? Sure. I have ABUs in my closet, I'll be ready to rock right around June 20th :)  Will I still wear my BDUs? Probably. They're in good shape and I don't need to DX those right away, so as long as they're authorized, I'll probably wear them. Or, maybe, give them to unit supply so some cadet in my size can get a set of uniforms. Either way.

QuoteI think the majority of cadets that will be wearing the new uniform right as it starts to roll out are brand new cadets that join after the transitional period starts. I iwll probably get the new uniform just because I am the CC at my squadron and I need to set the example, but how hard am I expected to push the new uniform? I either want no ABUs in my squadron or all ABUs. I would go crazy if we are split in uniforms, because it looks stupid having all these different cadet uniforms that cadets can show up in.

Why?? Why does it "look stupid?"

The military has been switching uniforms more and more since the start of the GWOT (and even before when the Marines jumped on the "We gotta be different!" bandwagon).  They have phase in periods that are more aligned with the potential service life of the uniform (and things like uniform allowances, etc) because those uniforms get worn everyday.  And really, nobody looked at a mixed formation of Marines in BDUs and MARPATs and said "Holy cow, what a bunch of unprofessional looking louts."

But if having a cadet in ABUs standing next to a cadet in BDUs causes you that much cognitive dissonance, maybe its time for a "stupid filter realignment" or something.

Quote
<snip>
Change is bad :)

Welcome to the real world.

But here's a TL;DR that you can get behind, based on historical precedent: chances are 90+% of your unit will be wearing the new uniform by the end of 2016.  And by around the middle of 2018, you'll hardly see BDUs anywhere but the "You'll pry my BDUs from my cold, dead fingers!" crowd. 

We can come back here in 2 years and see if I'm wrong.

Quote from: cnitas on May 05, 2016, 03:42:27 PM
Judging from the transition from Fatigues to BDU, the effective rate of ABU adoption will be about 18 months, as you want.  I predict that In 2 years, BDUs will be rare in most places, and in 3 almost forgotten.   When the phase-in periods ends, it will be with a wimper and everyone will have been in ABU for some time.

Mark: you beat me to it!  :)

I only wore my OG-107 jungle fatigues right up to the last minute, just cuz I wanted to be that cool one last time :)

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 05, 2016, 03:37:34 PM
Cadets over 18, who are outside of H&W still need to maintain grooming.

Incorrect, but great try.

You can have a cadet, under or over 18, with a religious accommodation for grooming, who wears grey/white and BBDUs.

But thats not the point of this thread.

Quote from: NIN on May 05, 2016, 03:59:42 PM

Quote from: cnitas on May 05, 2016, 03:42:27 PM
Judging from the transition from Fatigues to BDU, the effective rate of ABU adoption will be about 18 months, as you want.  I predict that In 2 years, BDUs will be rare in most places, and in 3 almost forgotten.   When the phase-in periods ends, it will be with a wimper and everyone will have been in ABU for some time.

Mark: you beat me to it!  :)

I only wore my OG-107 jungle fatigues right up to the last minute, just cuz I wanted to be that cool one last time :)

I expect that this will be the case. I imagine a day five years from now when all of the cadet officers are still wearing their BDUs as a mark of how long they've been in the program. It's like a red service ribbon you can see from a mile away.

Quote from: GrantHenninger on May 05, 2016, 04:31:02 PM
I expect that this will be the case. I imagine a day five years from now when all of the cadet officers are still wearing their BDUs as a mark of how long they've been in the program. It's like a red service ribbon you can see from a mile away.

Oh, sure, it will happen. Especially in the cadet ranks. (no offense to cadets, its just how teenagers are built)

there will be those holdouts. My late 2018 they will be in the minority, I suspect.

Heck, back in 1992 at Summer Encampment I stood in the Clothing Sales Store at Wurtsmith AFB while the encampment commander, holding up a BDU shirt, said "You won't catch me dead in this uniform. EVER."

He's a wing commander now. I know he has at least one set of BDUs. :)

It happens. Things change.

Quote from: GrantHenninger on May 05, 2016, 04:31:02 PM

Quote from: NIN on May 05, 2016, 03:59:42 PM

Quote from: cnitas on May 05, 2016, 03:42:27 PM
Judging from the transition from Fatigues to BDU, the effective rate of ABU adoption will be about 18 months, as you want.  I predict that In 2 years, BDUs will be rare in most places, and in 3 almost forgotten.   When the phase-in periods ends, it will be with a wimper and everyone will have been in ABU for some time.

Mark: you beat me to it!  :)

I only wore my OG-107 jungle fatigues right up to the last minute, just cuz I wanted to be that cool one last time :)

I expect that this will be the case. I imagine a day five years from now when all of the cadet officers are still wearing their BDUs as a mark of how long they've been in the program. It's like a red service ribbon you can see from a mile away.

Well...that's easy to fix.   Because local commanders can move up the required by date.  It is within their authority.

Quote from: lordmonar on May 05, 2016, 05:04:56 PM
Well...that's easy to fix.   Because local commanders can move up the required by date.  It is within their authority.

Not unless you're buying them for the cadets.

Quote from: NIN on May 05, 2016, 04:07:12 PM

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 05, 2016, 03:37:34 PM
Cadets over 18, who are outside of H&W still need to maintain grooming.

Incorrect, but great try.

You can have a cadet, under or over 18, with a religious accommodation for grooming, who wears grey/white and BBDUs.

But thats not the point of this thread.

Those are literally the exceptions to the rule. My statement is correct.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 05, 2016, 05:17:38 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on May 05, 2016, 05:04:56 PM
Well...that's easy to fix.   Because local commanders can move up the required by date.  It is within their authority.

Not unless you're buying them for the cadets.

Sure.

Quote from: lordmonar on May 05, 2016, 05:04:56 PM

Quote from: GrantHenninger on May 05, 2016, 04:31:02 PM

Quote from: NIN on May 05, 2016, 03:59:42 PM

Quote from: cnitas on May 05, 2016, 03:42:27 PM
Judging from the transition from Fatigues to BDU, the effective rate of ABU adoption will be about 18 months, as you want.  I predict that In 2 years, BDUs will be rare in most places, and in 3 almost forgotten.   When the phase-in periods ends, it will be with a wimper and everyone will have been in ABU for some time.

Mark: you beat me to it!  :)

I only wore my OG-107 jungle fatigues right up to the last minute, just cuz I wanted to be that cool one last time :)

I expect that this will be the case. I imagine a day five years from now when all of the cadet officers are still wearing their BDUs as a mark of how long they've been in the program. It's like a red service ribbon you can see from a mile away.

Well...that's easy to fix.   Because local commanders can move up the required by date.  It is within their authority.

I see no delegation of authority in that document to local commanders to override the National Commander's directed wear-out date of 2021.

Quote from: JeffDG on May 05, 2016, 05:30:57 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on May 05, 2016, 05:04:56 PM

Quote from: GrantHenninger on May 05, 2016, 04:31:02 PM

Quote from: NIN on May 05, 2016, 03:59:42 PM

Quote from: cnitas on May 05, 2016, 03:42:27 PM
Judging from the transition from Fatigues to BDU, the effective rate of ABU adoption will be about 18 months, as you want.  I predict that In 2 years, BDUs will be rare in most places, and in 3 almost forgotten.   When the phase-in periods ends, it will be with a wimper and everyone will have been in ABU for some time.

Mark: you beat me to it!  :)

I only wore my OG-107 jungle fatigues right up to the last minute, just cuz I wanted to be that cool one last time :)

I expect that this will be the case. I imagine a day five years from now when all of the cadet officers are still wearing their BDUs as a mark of how long they've been in the program. It's like a red service ribbon you can see from a mile away.

Well...that's easy to fix.   Because local commanders can move up the required by date.  It is within their authority.

I see no delegation of authority in that document to local commanders to override the National Commander's directed wear-out date of 2021.

Local commanders always have the authority to make thing more restrictive.   Heck they could go the other way as well....and not allow their people to wear the ABUs until the sunset date.     

QuoteHeck, back in 1992 at Summer Encampment I stood in the Clothing Sales Store at Wurtsmith AFB while the encampment commander, holding up a BDU shirt, said "You won't catch me dead in this uniform. EVER."

That's when you bury him in it just to make a point. 

Like when I worked part time at a funeral home.  There was a really nice older couple in town that I knew through my grandmother.   He was a Purdue fan, she was an IU fan (which is basically the modern Indiana equivalent of having family on both sides of the Civil War).  Apparently it was a long running joke that he said he'd be dead before he ever put on an IU shirt or hat. 

He died suddenly one night of a massive heart attack.  She held him to his statement.  She buried him in an IU hat and sweatshirt.   According to their son, both of them had been planning to pull something along this line so it was really quite hilarious.  I wore a University of Tennessee tie with my suit while working the door that day.   If a funeral can be fun or jovial, that was probably it.

Quote from: NIN on May 05, 2016, 02:45:55 PM
Wing patches are not intended to be "optional at the member's discretion" but rather "optional at the wing's discretion" nationally.

You can have 100 guys standing in formation and not everybody is wearing all their qual badges (those are a "personal" qualification).  Some people may not possess qualification badges, even.  But they should all have the same shoulder patch (an "organizational" qualification if you will..)

I don't know of any (off the top of my head) wing that has eliminated wing patches entirely, or has made them "member optional." (there may well be, but I can't point to one at the moment).

Cite please. I know of several wings that have not eliminated the wing patch, nor made it mandatory (which is AKA optional).

Quote from: lordmonar on May 05, 2016, 05:32:44 PM

Quote from: JeffDG on May 05, 2016, 05:30:57 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on May 05, 2016, 05:04:56 PM

Quote from: GrantHenninger on May 05, 2016, 04:31:02 PM

Quote from: NIN on May 05, 2016, 03:59:42 PM

Quote from: cnitas on May 05, 2016, 03:42:27 PM
Judging from the transition from Fatigues to BDU, the effective rate of ABU adoption will be about 18 months, as you want.  I predict that In 2 years, BDUs will be rare in most places, and in 3 almost forgotten.   When the phase-in periods ends, it will be with a wimper and everyone will have been in ABU for some time.

Mark: you beat me to it!  :)

I only wore my OG-107 jungle fatigues right up to the last minute, just cuz I wanted to be that cool one last time :)

I expect that this will be the case. I imagine a day five years from now when all of the cadet officers are still wearing their BDUs as a mark of how long they've been in the program. It's like a red service ribbon you can see from a mile away.

Well...that's easy to fix.   Because local commanders can move up the required by date.  It is within their authority.

I see no delegation of authority in that document to local commanders to override the National Commander's directed wear-out date of 2021.

Local commanders always have the authority to make thing more restrictive.   Heck they could go the other way as well....and not allow their people to wear the ABUs until the sunset date.     

As Eclipse said, only if the commander is willing to fork out the bill. A commander has no authority to make a member buy an optional uniform out of pocket and until the require wear date, ABUs will be optional.

Really?  What uniform does your wing require for Encampment?

Quote from: lordmonar on May 05, 2016, 05:56:53 PM
Really?  What uniform does your wing require for Encampment?

Not the ABU. And I guarantee no wing will force a member to replace their BDUs early.

Besides, while required for the Mitchell Award and NCSAs, encampments are optional.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 05, 2016, 06:25:19 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on May 05, 2016, 05:56:53 PM
Really?  What uniform does your wing require for Encampment?

Not the ABU. And I guarantee no wing will force a member to replace their BDUs early.

Besides, while required for the Mitchell Award and NCSAs, encampments are optional.

I agree....but that's not what I actually said.

Quote from: lordmonar on May 05, 2016, 05:32:44 PM
Local commanders always have the authority to make thing more restrictive.   Heck they could go the other way as well....and not allow their people to wear the ABUs until the sunset date.     

Disagree.

The clear intention of the National Commander is to permit a specific wear-out date.  Local commander's directives cannot overrule the letter or the intent of higher headquarters.

This is not making something "more restrictive", it is striking out a date from a directive of CAP/CC and substituting a new date therefor.

Quote from: JeffDG on May 05, 2016, 06:41:53 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on May 05, 2016, 05:32:44 PM
Local commanders always have the authority to make thing more restrictive.   Heck they could go the other way as well....and not allow their people to wear the ABUs until the sunset date.     

Disagree.

The clear intention of the National Commander is to permit a specific wear-out date.  Local commander's directives cannot overrule the letter or the intent of higher headquarters.

This is not making something "more restrictive", it is striking out a date from a directive of CAP/CC and substituting a new date therefor.

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 05, 2016, 06:25:19 PM

Besides, while required for the Mitchell Award and NCSAs, encampments are optional.

Non-concur.  Although this may just be a matter of semantics, I believe that encampment is indeed a requirement of our terrific cadet program.  As you correctly note, it is one of the requirements for the coveted Mitchell Award.  Since all cadets are required to continuously progress in the program, all are required to complete encampment.

Sure, they can quit (or be terminated) before reaching Phase III, but that doesn't change the "required" nature of the encampment program.

That's just like saying "breathing is optional, unless you'd like to live longer than the next two minutes."   ;D

Quote from: Ned on May 05, 2016, 06:50:53 PM
That's just like saying "breathing is optional, unless you'd like to live longer than the next two minutes."   ;D

doggone it, Ned, I just turned blue and nearly passed out :)

Quote from: Ned on May 05, 2016, 06:50:53 PM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 05, 2016, 06:25:19 PM

Besides, while required for the Mitchell Award and NCSAs, encampments are optional.

Non-concur.  Although this may just be a matter of semantics, I believe that encampment is indeed a requirement of our terrific cadet program.  As you correctly note, it is one of the requirements for the coveted Mitchell Award.  Since all cadets are required to continuously progress in the program, all are required to complete encampment.

Sure, they can quit (or be terminated) before reaching Phase III, but that doesn't change the "required" nature of the encampment program.

That's just like saying "breathing is optional, unless you'd like to live longer than the next two minutes."   ;D

Sir, of course you're correct. What I meant was that no one forces a cadet to attend encampment at a specific date or within a specific timeframe. So, if a cadet doesn't have the required set or number of uniforms, they don't have to attend at that time. That doesn't change the fact that encampment is an essential part of the Cadet Programs.

That said, what happens when a cadet can't afford to buy three sets of BDUs (or soon ABUs), as required by many wing encampments? CAP only gives one set of service uniform (or the voucher to acquire it). And not every squadron can issue BDUs.

CAPM 39-1, Para. 1.2.1 allows commanders to "require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary (such as requiring a specific uniform for participation in a National Cadet Special Activity) or if the uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet." Other than that, the only required uniform for all members, including cadets, is the minimum basic uniform IAW CAPM 39-1, Para. 1.2.1. I doubt a cadet would be terminated because they can acquire a specific set or number of uniforms.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 05, 2016, 05:48:38 PM
Cite please. I know of several wings that have not eliminated the wing patch, nor made it mandatory (which is AKA optional).

Actually, I'm wrong in the latest iteration of 39-1.

Para 10.7.6 makes no provision for wing patches to be optional.

They were previously deemed "optional" on BDUs after their elimination from blues.  Some folks took that to mean that they were "optional if I don't feel like wearing one," but in practice, it was "your wing can decide whether the entire wing wears a wing patch or not" optional.

Looks like that is no longer the case.

I stand corrected.

I have a possible fix to get name tapes quickly if the ones wearing the new ABU's want a quick turn around. I have used this place for both my Army civilian job and Air Force civilian job. Fast, and have never had any issues with this company at all.

http://www.militarynames.com/customroyalbluewebbednametapessewon.aspx (http://www.militarynames.com/customroyalbluewebbednametapessewon.aspx)

http://www.militarynames.com/royalbluewebbednametapeswithvelcro.aspx (http://www.militarynames.com/royalbluewebbednametapeswithvelcro.aspx)

Quote from: NINow, here's the hard part: the USAF has, with ABUs, specifically gotten away from the high degree of "multi-patched clown suit" that the BDUs were at the end of their tenure with them (I think anybody who was in the USAF at the end of the BDU era would agree.. Sq Patch, wing patch, badges, something over the nametag maybe, etc).

Ugh....I remember that crap.  I think I actually still have one of my BDUs from the around here.  It actually (last time I saw it) still had the sleeves rolled up from my last day in the AF which was March 2003.  LOL

I am very much of the "The side/team with the simplest uniform wins" mentality.  Extra crap to sew on?  Screw that. 

The only time I would have all my insignia is if I were directly ordered to wear it or if it's a dress uniform (which if I recall correctly (still in the joining process), it is required on)

QuoteNow all we need is sage green boots

If we have/get them are we authorized to wear them? I ask simply because I would rather only buy and break in one pair of boots.

Quote from: KASSRCrashResearch on May 05, 2016, 08:17:03 PM

Quote from: NINow, here's the hard part: the USAF has, with ABUs, specifically gotten away from the high degree of "multi-patched clown suit" that the BDUs were at the end of their tenure with them (I think anybody who was in the USAF at the end of the BDU era would agree.. Sq Patch, wing patch, badges, something over the nametag maybe, etc).

Ugh....I remember that crap.  I think I actually still have one of my BDUs from the around here.  It actually (last time I saw it) still had the sleeves rolled up from my last day in the AF which was March 2003.  LOL

I am very much of the "The side/team with the simplest uniform wins" mentality.  Extra crap to sew on?  Screw that. 

The only time I would have all my insignia is if I were directly ordered to wear it or if it's a dress uniform (which if I recall correctly (still in the joining process), it is required on)

QuoteNow all we need is sage green boots

If we have/get them are we authorized to wear them? I ask simply because I would rather only buy and break in one pair of boots.

Black boots are authorized. Green are no-go.

Anyone know what "light silver" means? Is this a standard color for anyone else or a unique CAP color?

Quote from: THRAWN on May 05, 2016, 08:22:16 PM

Quote from: KASSRCrashResearch on May 05, 2016, 08:17:03 PM

Quote from: NINow, here's the hard part: the USAF has, with ABUs, specifically gotten away from the high degree of "multi-patched clown suit" that the BDUs were at the end of their tenure with them (I think anybody who was in the USAF at the end of the BDU era would agree.. Sq Patch, wing patch, badges, something over the nametag maybe, etc).

Ugh....I remember that crap.  I think I actually still have one of my BDUs from the around here.  It actually (last time I saw it) still had the sleeves rolled up from my last day in the AF which was March 2003.  LOL

I am very much of the "The side/team with the simplest uniform wins" mentality.  Extra crap to sew on?  Screw that. 

The only time I would have all my insignia is if I were directly ordered to wear it or if it's a dress uniform (which if I recall correctly (still in the joining process), it is required on)

QuoteNow all we need is sage green boots

If we have/get them are we authorized to wear them? I ask simply because I would rather only buy and break in one pair of boots.

Black boots are authorized. Green are no-go.

Well, time to shine up my boots from the VFD then.  LOL

Thanks!

Quote from: Tim Day on May 05, 2016, 08:30:19 PM
Anyone know what "light silver" means? Is this a standard color for anyone else or a unique CAP color?

Means about the same as "dark black". From my vast needlepoint and sewing experience, it's an off the shelf color.

Quote from: KASSRCrashResearch on May 05, 2016, 08:17:03 PM

QuoteNow all we need is sage green boots

If we have/get them are we authorized to wear them? I ask simply because I would rather only buy and break in one pair of boots.

Negative Ghostrider.

Quote from: grunt82abn on May 05, 2016, 07:50:36 PM
I have a possible fix to get name tapes quickly if the ones wearing the new ABU's want a quick turn around. I have used this place for both my Army civilian job and Air Force civilian job. Fast, and have never had any issues with this company at all.

http://www.militarynames.com/customroyalbluewebbednametapessewon.aspx (http://www.militarynames.com/customroyalbluewebbednametapessewon.aspx)

http://www.militarynames.com/royalbluewebbednametapeswithvelcro.aspx (http://www.militarynames.com/royalbluewebbednametapeswithvelcro.aspx)

Unless your last name is "CIVIL AIR PATROL," thats probably a no-go.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 05, 2016, 07:39:38 PM
That said, what happens when a cadet can't afford to buy three sets of BDUs (or soon ABUs), as required by many wing encampments? CAP only gives one set of service uniform (or the voucher to acquire it). And not every squadron can issue BDUs.

(This probably deserves its own thread on managing an active cadet program with cadets with financial challenges.)

But speaking as a multiple former encampment commander, the answer is "we make do."  No cadet should be denied an encampment experience for financial reasons, especially in the Era of CEAP.  I've waived portions of the encampment fee, borrowed uniforms (and looked the other way when the name tape is different than the cadet's last name), and provided extra laundry time.

That's just what I expect experienced CP officers to do.  Make it work for the benefit of the cadet.

Doesn't CEAP include uniform assistance?

Quote from: CEAP HomepageThanks to Air Force support, CAP has special funding available to cover encampment fees and uniforms with an emphasis on serving economically disadvantaged cadets.

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 05, 2016, 09:56:43 PM
Doesn't CEAP include uniform assistance?

Quote from: CEAP HomepageThanks to Air Force support, CAP has special funding available to cover encampment fees and uniforms with an emphasis on serving economically disadvantaged cadets.

It could.  A cadet requests either encampment enrollment or uniform assistance or both.  For the cadets that request both, they can get only one, both, or none. 

Ned makes an excellent point by saying "we make do."  We should do what we can to help those cadets who have a financial need.  Borrowing uniforms from cadets who are going to encampment, other squadrons, etc is what good Commanders and CP people do.

This has been this way since I was a wee c/AB at encampment in 1981 with one set of fatigues,  one set of cutouts,  one set of blues and no nametags

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Quote from: NIN on May 05, 2016, 10:16:59 PM
This has been this way since I was a wee c/AB at encampment in 1981 with on set of fatigues,  one set of cutouts,  one set of blues and no nametags

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

NIN, you attended encampment the year I was born.

Quote from: GrantHenninger on May 05, 2016, 11:42:48 PM
NIN, you attended encampment the year I was born.

Whippersnappers.

#GetOffMyLawn



Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Thank God we only have 5 years until this mess will be over.  Why have uniforms when you can have people wearing almost any [darn] thing for 5 years??  Oh, the inhumanity.....

Quote from: GrantHenninger on May 05, 2016, 11:42:48 PM

Quote from: NIN on May 05, 2016, 10:16:59 PM
This has been this way since I was a wee c/AB at encampment in 1981 with on set of fatigues,  one set of cutouts,  one set of blues and no nametags

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

NIN, you attended encampment the year I was born.

Yeah, and I attended my first encampment the year Nin was born. 'Tain't no big thang.

Quote from: SarDragon on May 06, 2016, 12:16:53 AM
Yeah, and I attended my first encampment the year Nin was born. 'Tain't no big thang.

I'm moving off your lawn, Boss

Quote

Thank God we only have 5 years until this mess will be over.  Why have uniforms when you can have people wearing almost any [darn] thing for 5 years??  Oh, the inhumanity.....

It is always nice to know that most some members think the worst problems facing the organization are the uniforms we wear, and most of those other problems will go away when we fix the uniform issue...

>:D

Quote from: Ned on May 05, 2016, 09:28:38 PM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 05, 2016, 07:39:38 PM
That said, what happens when a cadet can't afford to buy three sets of BDUs (or soon ABUs), as required by many wing encampments? CAP only gives one set of service uniform (or the voucher to acquire it). And not every squadron can issue BDUs.

(This probably deserves its own thread on managing an active cadet program with cadets with financial challenges.)

But speaking as a multiple former encampment commander, the answer is "we make do."  No cadet should be denied an encampment experience for financial reasons, especially in the Era of CEAP.  I've waived portions of the encampment fee, borrowed uniforms (and looked the other way when the name tape is different than the cadet's last name), and provided extra laundry time.

That's just what I expect experienced CP officers to do.  Make it work for the benefit of the cadet.

Ned, our GAWG encampments haven't allowed for laundry for the past several years, and require three sets of BDUs and seven black T shirts, which I have to get our new cadets equipped with. I can't change encampment, nor are our cadets allowed to attend out of GA Wing encampments (unless they're also attending the GA encampment as well), so it is what it is.


V/R
Spam

[/font][/size]

Quote from: supertigerCH on May 05, 2016, 01:40:02 AM
This is the most professional and sharp looking field-type uniform that you have approved/issued for many years. 

Really? Is that why everyone in the USAF hates them?
[/quote]


Even if this is true... it wouldn't necessarily mean that this still isn't the most professional and sharp looking field-type uniform that CAP has approved in years.  please read comment carefully.  was talking about uniforms as CAP wears them, not the Air Force ABU.

have a great day!!

Quote from: Spam on May 06, 2016, 02:01:30 AM

Quote from: Ned on May 05, 2016, 09:28:38 PM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 05, 2016, 07:39:38 PM
That said, what happens when a cadet can't afford to buy three sets of BDUs (or soon ABUs), as required by many wing encampments? CAP only gives one set of service uniform (or the voucher to acquire it). And not every squadron can issue BDUs.

(This probably deserves its own thread on managing an active cadet program with cadets with financial challenges.)

But speaking as a multiple former encampment commander, the answer is "we make do."  No cadet should be denied an encampment experience for financial reasons, especially in the Era of CEAP.  I've waived portions of the encampment fee, borrowed uniforms (and looked the other way when the name tape is different than the cadet's last name), and provided extra laundry time.

That's just what I expect experienced CP officers to do.  Make it work for the benefit of the cadet.

Ned, our GAWG encampments haven't allowed for laundry for the past several years, and require three sets of BDUs and seven black T shirts, which I have to get our new cadets equipped with. I can't change encampment, nor are our cadets allowed to attend out of GA Wing encampments (unless they're also attending the GA encampment as well), so it is what it is.


V/R
Spam

No laundry, how bizarre and smelly... :o  Is it a time problem or a facility problem?

More of a time MANAGEMENT problem, I suspect. I never got an answer when I asked, as DCP.

I ran an encampment back in the day where we did laundry regularly throughout the week with no "logistics flight" as seems popular today (also no full time squad of cadet PAOs taking pics of their pals). I don't know why we don't do laundry any more and require more money up front for uniforms from all.

V/R
Spam

At the CAWG Encampment we do laundry. It's a flight activity and part of the time management problem for the Flight Cadre.
The day we do the O-Course is usually laundry day since most of the students only have two sets of BDU's and one set just got very dirty on the O-Course.

Quote from: PHall on May 06, 2016, 04:43:51 AM
At the CAWG Encampment we do laundry. It's a flight activity and part of the time management problem for the Flight Cadre.
The day we do the O-Course is usually laundry day since most of the students only have two sets of BDU's and one set just got very dirty on the O-Course.

Yeah from memory, VAWG, MSWG, and INWG it seems laundry is a standard.

I for one am glad they are making the move, even though I bought new uniforms before all the announcements on plans of the ABU were made shortly after I bought them. I'll probably have some soon after they go live. Also not too concerned about the 'no beret' thing. Don't get me wrong I love to wear mine but a fancy hat doesn't make the officer, or cadet any better.

I had a lot of questions last night from my cadet group about the memorandum though. Such as, "are we switching tapes and devices out on the BDUs to the dark blue as well, or do they stay ultra-marine blue?", "Do we still have to polish our black boots?", etc. Most of our seniors are more in the "I'll just wear the polo and grey slacks" mode, so being one of 3 seniors that actually wear the uniform means having all the answers even when you don't have all the answers! lol

QuoteMost of our seniors are more in the "I'll just wear the polo and grey slacks" mode, so being one of 3 seniors that actually wear the uniform means having all the answers even when you don't have all the answers!

Yeah, the polo and grey slacks uniform to me doesn't do it for me.  Not that I particularly like wearing BDUs or ABUs (never actually worn the latter yet...just extrapolating) but for an operational standpoint, they make more sense.

Quote from: Spam on May 06, 2016, 02:01:30 AM
...nor are our cadets allowed to attend out of GA Wing encampments (unless they're also attending the GA encampment as well...
V/R
Spam

Why not?

Quote from: KASSRCrashResearch on May 06, 2016, 12:30:37 PM

QuoteMost of our seniors are more in the "I'll just wear the polo and grey slacks" mode, so being one of 3 seniors that actually wear the uniform means having all the answers even when you don't have all the answers!

Yeah, the polo and grey slacks uniform to me doesn't do it for me.  Not that I particularly like wearing BDUs or ABUs (never actually worn the latter yet...just extrapolating) but for an operational standpoint, they make more sense.

That depends on your definition of "operational". For ground operations, especially in a wilderness environment, a field utility uniform (BDU, BBDU, ABU) is needed for obvious reasons. The CAP corporate working uniform (AKA polo with gray pants) makes sense operationally for those working in the ICP, EOC, and with other agencies.

Quote from: Tim Day on May 06, 2016, 12:34:36 PM

Quote from: Spam on May 06, 2016, 02:01:30 AM
...nor are our cadets allowed to attend out of GA Wing encampments (unless they're also attending the GA encampment as well...
V/R
Spam

Why not?

I'd prefer not to speculate why, here.

I'd like my cadets to attend a safe, effective encampment and I trust that my Wing's encampment will be good this year.

V/R,
Spam

Quote from: KASSRCrashResearch on May 06, 2016, 12:30:37 PM

QuoteMost of our seniors are more in the "I'll just wear the polo and grey slacks" mode, so being one of 3 seniors that actually wear the uniform means having all the answers even when you don't have all the answers!

Yeah, the polo and grey slacks uniform to me doesn't do it for me.  Not that I particularly like wearing BDUs or ABUs (never actually worn the latter yet...just extrapolating) but for an operational standpoint, they make more sense.

Well, and it'd be one thing if it always looks professional, but I look at it like this:

If I'm in a leadership position, especially with cadets present, I have to set the example both with my behavior, AND with a sharp and well maintained uniform. You set the example. If they see a senior member who's uniform looks like a dumpster fire, they won't be motivated to improve their own uniforms, or their own behavior. That uniform serves as a physical representation of the values we try to bestow on these cadets through their career as a cadet. Have them strive for excellence, but never denegrade or diminish them for not achieving your own view of uniform-wise perfection. I probably wasn't the best cadet, nor was my uniform always perfect, but I'd like to think it was because of excellent leaders I had over me that I was able to straighten myself out eventually.

We've had a number of cadets in my unit who haven't been able to afford uniforms, tapes or etc. One of the other seniors bought tapes for them, and I'm sewing them on all the cadets uniforms today so they don't have to pay someone to put them on. Thankfully when ABU's arrive, we've got bags of them from our local JROTC unit that have been kind enough to donate them. This coupled with the AAFES stuff, we should have all cadets in solid looking uniforms.

QuoteWell, and it'd be one thing if it always looks professional, but I look at it like this:

If I'm in a leadership position, especially with cadets present, I have to set the example both with my behavior, AND with a sharp and well maintained uniform. You set the example. If they see a senior member who's uniform looks like a dumpster fire, they won't be motivated to improve their own uniforms, or their own behavior. That uniform serves as a physical representation of the values we try to bestow on these cadets through their career as a cadet. Have them strive for excellence, but never denigrate or diminish them for not achieving your own view of uniform-wise perfection. I probably wasn't the best cadet, nor was my uniform always perfect, but I'd like to think it was because of excellent leaders I had over me that I was able to straighten myself out eventually.

Agreed about the importance of proper wear, although I will not be focused on cadets to any great degree since I am going into a senior squadron and not planning any significant involvement with the drill, encampment or cadet education activities.  It's important but it's not my area of interest. 

Seeing people who look like a soup sandwich (google "CSM Flournoy" for a GREAT example) makes me a little stabby but then again I guess it's a matter of what the command staff is willing to tolerate.

Quote from: cnitas on May 05, 2016, 03:42:27 PM
Judging from the transition from Fatigues to BDU, the effective rate of ABU adoption will be about 18 months, as you want.  I predict that In 2 years, BDUs will be rare in most places, and in 3 almost forgotten.   When the phase-in periods ends, it will be with a wimper and everyone will have been in ABU for some time.

I concur, when the transition from the pickle suits was made, it was pretty rapid.  I had a squadron commander that stockpiled the pickle suits to try and force people to wear them.  Cadets went out and got their own BDUs and he couldn't do anything about it.

That being said, people need to realise that different uniforms do nothing to affect operational effectiveness or discipline.  So get over it.  If it bugs you that much, then buy them for your members that don't have them.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 06, 2016, 12:53:18 PMThe CAP corporate working uniform (AKA polo with gray pants) makes sense operationally for those working in the ICP, EOC, and with other agencies.

Not to mention UDF and all flying (The guys from DuPont Composite Squadron don't need to jump in here).

Quote from: Spam on May 06, 2016, 02:01:30 AM

Quote from: Ned on May 05, 2016, 09:28:38 PM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 05, 2016, 07:39:38 PM
That said, what happens when a cadet can't afford to buy three sets of BDUs (or soon ABUs), as required by many wing encampments? CAP only gives one set of service uniform (or the voucher to acquire it). And not every squadron can issue BDUs.

(This probably deserves its own thread on managing an active cadet program with cadets with financial challenges.)

But speaking as a multiple former encampment commander, the answer is "we make do."  No cadet should be denied an encampment experience for financial reasons, especially in the Era of CEAP.  I've waived portions of the encampment fee, borrowed uniforms (and looked the other way when the name tape is different than the cadet's last name), and provided extra laundry time.

That's just what I expect experienced CP officers to do.  Make it work for the benefit of the cadet.

Ned, our GAWG encampments haven't allowed for laundry for the past several years, and require three sets of BDUs and seven black T shirts, which I have to get our new cadets equipped with. I can't change encampment, nor are our cadets allowed to attend out of GA Wing encampments (unless they're also attending the GA encampment as well), so it is what it is.


V/R
Spam

When we ran into the no laundry facility problem, we designated staff to go to the laundromat off post (Fort Leonard Wood) and do laundry for the cadets.  It's all about giving the cadets the best experience possible at encampments.  Not restricting them because they don't have the right stuff.

Quote from: Toad1168 on May 06, 2016, 02:21:07 PM

Quote from: cnitas on May 05, 2016, 03:42:27 PM
Judging from the transition from Fatigues to BDU, the effective rate of ABU adoption will be about 18 months, as you want.  I predict that In 2 years, BDUs will be rare in most places, and in 3 almost forgotten.   When the phase-in periods ends, it will be with a wimper and everyone will have been in ABU for some time.

I concur, when the transition from the pickle suits was made, it was pretty rapid.  I had a squadron commander that stockpiled the pickle suits to try and force people to wear them.  Cadets went out and got their own BDUs and he couldn't do anything about it.

That being said, people need to realise that different uniforms do nothing to affect operational effectiveness or discipline.  So get over it.  If it bugs you that much, then buy them for your members that don't have them.

Our squadron has three huge lockers full of just BDU blouses and pants, and one small cabinet with ABU's. My guess is that we'll be handing out BDU's to new cadets for a while, though I am thinking we'll work a deal out with the local 20th ASOS and try to get some of their surplus. (our local Military Clothing and Sales {read AAFES} doesn't have ABU's, only the new OCP.)

Quote from: Toad1168 on May 06, 2016, 02:29:43 PM

Quote from: Spam on May 06, 2016, 02:01:30 AM

Quote from: Ned on May 05, 2016, 09:28:38 PM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 05, 2016, 07:39:38 PM
That said, what happens when a cadet can't afford to buy three sets of BDUs (or soon ABUs), as required by many wing encampments? CAP only gives one set of service uniform (or the voucher to acquire it). And not every squadron can issue BDUs.

(This probably deserves its own thread on managing an active cadet program with cadets with financial challenges.)

But speaking as a multiple former encampment commander, the answer is "we make do."  No cadet should be denied an encampment experience for financial reasons, especially in the Era of CEAP.  I've waived portions of the encampment fee, borrowed uniforms (and looked the other way when the name tape is different than the cadet's last name), and provided extra laundry time.

That's just what I expect experienced CP officers to do.  Make it work for the benefit of the cadet.

Ned, our GAWG encampments haven't allowed for laundry for the past several years, and require three sets of BDUs and seven black T shirts, which I have to get our new cadets equipped with. I can't change encampment, nor are our cadets allowed to attend out of GA Wing encampments (unless they're also attending the GA encampment as well), so it is what it is.


V/R
Spam

When we ran into the no laundry facility problem, we designated staff to go to the laundromat off post (Fort Leonard Wood) and do laundry for the cadets.  It's all about giving the cadets the best experience possible at encampments.  Not restricting them because they don't have the right stuff.

Yep. 13 years in CAP (Today actually!), and I've never owned more than 2 sets of utility uniforms at a time. Even then, only because BBDUs fade so unevenly.

If CAP saw 1/2 the interest and energy around cadet testing, member retention, professional conduct,
or even proofreading the regulations, as around a shirt that 1/3rd of the membership can't wear and
the majority have no need for, it would be in a lot better position.

Tim Cooke would be proud.

Err, refresh my mind.

Who is / was Tim Cooke?

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on May 06, 2016, 02:43:58 PM
Who is / was Tim Cooke?

Exactly.

Quote from: KASSRCrashResearch on May 06, 2016, 02:07:58 PM

Agreed about the importance of proper wear, although I will not be focused on cadets to any great degree since I am going into a senior squadron and not planning any significant involvement with the drill, encampment or cadet education activities.  It's important but it's not my area of interest. 

Seeing people who look like a soup sandwich (google "CSM Flournoy" for a GREAT example) makes me a little stabby but then again I guess it's a matter of what the command staff is willing to tolerate.

Just keep in mind that, although you may not be focused or interested in the Cadet Program, the cadets are around and will see you and how you present yourself, even if you keep your distance.

But I agree! Although I'm cracking up at the CSM Flournoy reference. I've used Flournoy a few times when talking about dress and appearance to cadets. lol

The gent in question had serious emotional issues and has left this mortal coil.

Much more troubling in a CAP context are those who know the rules and chose to ignore them,
and worse are the leaders who see things and won't intervene.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 06, 2016, 02:46:05 PM

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on May 06, 2016, 02:43:58 PM
Who is / was Tim Cooke?

Exactly.

You crack me up, but seriously.

Honest question...

For folks with young/small cadets, would this be legal?
http://www.amazon.com/Force-Authentic-Military-Battle-Uniform/dp/B00EJQGSX4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1462554670&sr=8-2&keywords=USAF+Kids+ABU+US+Air+Force+Authentic+Military+Battle+Uniform (http://www.amazon.com/Force-Authentic-Military-Battle-Uniform/dp/B00EJQGSX4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1462554670&sr=8-2&keywords=USAF+Kids+ABU+US+Air+Force+Authentic+Military+Battle+Uniform)

Very common issue is getting BDUs small enough for the younger cadets.

Quote from: DocJekyll on May 06, 2016, 03:19:41 PM

Quote from: KASSRCrashResearch on May 06, 2016, 02:07:58 PM

Agreed about the importance of proper wear, although I will not be focused on cadets to any great degree since I am going into a senior squadron and not planning any significant involvement with the drill, encampment or cadet education activities.  It's important but it's not my area of interest. 

Seeing people who look like a soup sandwich (google "CSM Flournoy" for a GREAT example) makes me a little stabby but then again I guess it's a matter of what the command staff is willing to tolerate.

Just keep in mind that, although you may not be focused or interested in the Cadet Program, the cadets are around and will see you and how you present yourself, even if you keep your distance.

But I agree! Although I'm cracking up at the CSM Flournoy reference. I've used Flournoy a few times when talking about dress and appearance to cadets. lol

This comes up a lot, but I just saw this recently:
(http://i.imgur.com/QCzVlaU.jpg)

Quote from: DocJekyll on May 06, 2016, 03:19:41 PM
Just keep in mind that, although you may not be focused or interested in the Cadet Program, the cadets are around and will see you and how you present yourself, even if you keep your distance.

Oh, I'm well aware.  I have nothing against them (actually, I dislike people who ignore or treat someone with disrespect or contempt simply because of their age) and don't have a problem being a good role model to whatever degree I can be.  It's just that cadets tend to have their things and I have mine.  If our paths cross, awesome.  They are part of the team just like any senior member who is able to function to a reasonable degree.

Quote from: StormChaserThe CAP corporate working uniform (AKA polo with gray pants) makes sense operationally for those working in the ICP, EOC, and with other agencies.

It may "make sense" but then again, I'm as much concerned with comfort as I am with that.  I loathe polo shirts- both from a looks and comfort perspective- and if I have to wear one for work, it comes off in favor of something else at the very first opportunity. 

Quote from: JeffDG on May 06, 2016, 05:13:42 PM
Honest question...

For folks with young/small cadets, would this be legal?
http://www.amazon.com/Force-Authentic-Military-Battle-Uniform/dp/B00EJQGSX4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1462554670&sr=8-2&keywords=USAF+Kids+ABU+US+Air+Force+Authentic+Military+Battle+Uniform (http://www.amazon.com/Force-Authentic-Military-Battle-Uniform/dp/B00EJQGSX4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1462554670&sr=8-2&keywords=USAF+Kids+ABU+US+Air+Force+Authentic+Military+Battle+Uniform)

Very common issue is getting BDUs small enough for the younger cadets.

If push came to shove.....I would not blink an eye.

Jeff,

If the issue is getting a very small very young cadet into a uniform that looks like but not quite as the real uniform because there are no uniforms in their sizes, I would look the other way.

Remember that young adults usually get into a growth spurt about their 12 or 13 years old, and the issue of no uniforms their size is solved very fast.

Tell any one that asks, to look the other way until that cadet can wear the correct one on his / her size.

Let's hope members don't go crease crazy with it.

Quote from: abdsp51 on May 06, 2016, 07:20:19 PM
Let's hope members don't go crease crazy with it.

Not in a million years would I take that bet.

Quote from: JeffDG on May 06, 2016, 07:22:31 PM

Quote from: abdsp51 on May 06, 2016, 07:20:19 PM
Let's hope members don't go crease crazy with it.

Not in a million years would I take that bet.

"I'm part of the Honor Guard, so my Uniform has to have no openings, pockets, buttons, or non-creased surfaces. My cover should be able to support my weight in case I need to use it as a step stool.".

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 06, 2016, 07:57:35 PM

Quote from: JeffDG on May 06, 2016, 07:22:31 PM

Quote from: abdsp51 on May 06, 2016, 07:20:19 PM
Let's hope members don't go crease crazy with it.

Not in a million years would I take that bet.

"I'm part of the Honor Guard, so my Uniform has to have no openings, pockets, buttons, or non-creased surfaces. My cover should be able to support my weight in case I need to use it as a step stool.".

Believe it or not, I know someone that could do that.... He was IL wing too!

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 06, 2016, 07:57:35 PMMy cover should be able to support my weight in case I need to use it as a step stool.".

https://www.vanguardmil.com/products/round-uniform-hat-shaper (https://www.vanguardmil.com/products/round-uniform-hat-shaper)

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0720/2413/products/7080200_grande.jpeg)

Sometimes you have to remind cadets that this doesn't stay in the hat when they wear it.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 06, 2016, 09:06:43 PM

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 06, 2016, 07:57:35 PMMy cover should be able to support my weight in case I need to use it as a step stool.".

https://www.vanguardmil.com/products/round-uniform-hat-shaper (https://www.vanguardmil.com/products/round-uniform-hat-shaper)

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0720/2413/products/7080200_grande.jpeg)

Sometimes you have to remind cadets that this doesn't stay in the hat when they wear it.

*facepalm*

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 06, 2016, 07:57:35 PM

Quote from: JeffDG on May 06, 2016, 07:22:31 PM

Quote from: abdsp51 on May 06, 2016, 07:20:19 PM
Let's hope members don't go crease crazy with it.

Not in a million years would I take that bet.

"I'm part of the Honor Guard, so my Uniform has to have no openings, pockets, buttons, or non-creased surfaces. My cover hat should be able to support my weight in case I need to use it as a step stool.".

I fixed that for you. After all, we're not the Army Auxiliary. ;)

I wonder if CAP will be able to drop the orange vest requirement for field work.  I do not believe the USAF has found an environment that this uniform will blend in with, thus negating the concern for orange vests when they switched to BDU's.

MK

Within the limits of my authority, I am going to attempt to herd cats and establish a reasonable timeline for transition.

My primary motivation is to reduce the economic impact of this change and to hold onto a bit of uniformity until we have enough ABU's to outfit at least half our squadron. 

I hope that we will be well into the transition by the end of the year.   In the meantime, I am discouraging cadets from paying retail for new ABU's.  I want to avoid a scenario where only rich kids are early adopters.  CAP shouldn't be an economic burden for parents.  I don't want peer pressure to drive bad financial decisions.   

That said, not much I can do when a cadet shows up on day one with ABU's.   I guess it will just motivate me to source ABU's and accelerate the transition.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 06, 2016, 11:37:08 PM

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 06, 2016, 07:57:35 PM

Quote from: JeffDG on May 06, 2016, 07:22:31 PM

Quote from: abdsp51 on May 06, 2016, 07:20:19 PM
Let's hope members don't go crease crazy with it.

Not in a million years would I take that bet.

"I'm part of the Honor Guard, so my Uniform has to have no openings, pockets, buttons, or non-creased surfaces. My cover hat should be able to support my weight in case I need to use it as a step stool.".

I fixed that for you. After all, we're not the Army Marine Corps Auxiliary. ;)

FTFY, too. :)
(Nowhere in AR 670-1 is a "cap" or "hat" referred to as a "cover." Thats not an Army term)

Quote from: Damron on May 07, 2016, 02:00:26 PM
Within the limits of my authority, I am going to attempt to herd cats and establish a reasonable timeline for transition.

My primary motivation is to reduce the economic impact of this change and to hold onto a bit of uniformity until we have enough ABU's to outfit at least half our squadron. 

I hope that we will be well into the transition by the end of the year.   In the meantime, I am discouraging cadets from paying retail for new ABU's.  I want to avoid a scenario where only rich kids are early adopters.  CAP shouldn't be an economic burden for parents.  I don't want peer pressure to drive bad financial decisions.   

That said, not much I can do when a cadet shows up on day one with ABU's.   I guess it will just motivate me to source ABU's and accelerate the transition.

News flash:   CAP is an economic burden for parents and has been for years if not decades...  But, it's the parents decision.
After all, they don't have to sign that membership application.  Your job is to be up front with them on the costs before you ask them to sign.

Quote from: PHall on May 07, 2016, 04:04:05 PM

Quote from: Damron on May 07, 2016, 02:00:26 PM
Within the limits of my authority, I am going to attempt to herd cats and establish a reasonable timeline for transition.

My primary motivation is to reduce the economic impact of this change and to hold onto a bit of uniformity until we have enough ABU's to outfit at least half our squadron. 

I hope that we will be well into the transition by the end of the year.   In the meantime, I am discouraging cadets from paying retail for new ABU's.  I want to avoid a scenario where only rich kids are early adopters.  CAP shouldn't be an economic burden for parents.  I don't want peer pressure to drive bad financial decisions.   

That said, not much I can do when a cadet shows up on day one with ABU's.   I guess it will just motivate me to source ABU's and accelerate the transition.

News flash:   CAP is an economic burden for parents and has been for years if not decades...  But, it's the parents decision.
After all, they don't have to sign that membership application.  Your job is to be up front with them on the costs before you ask them to sign.

I don't need a "news flash", I'm am precisely aware of the financial burden of CAP on parents.  I also feel that it is the responsibility of CAP to minimize that burden.

I am up front with every parent.  I am also making an effort to let parents know of our efforts to reduce the financial burden.  I want parents to make informed decisions.  I want them to know that they don't have to immediately purchase ABU's and associated items.

Until all of our cadets have ABU's, I will wear BDU's.

Quote from: PHall on May 07, 2016, 04:04:05 PM

Quote from: Damron on May 07, 2016, 02:00:26 PM
Within the limits of my authority, I am going to attempt to herd cats and establish a reasonable timeline for transition.

My primary motivation is to reduce the economic impact of this change and to hold onto a bit of uniformity until we have enough ABU's to outfit at least half our squadron. 

I hope that we will be well into the transition by the end of the year.   In the meantime, I am discouraging cadets from paying retail for new ABU's.  I want to avoid a scenario where only rich kids are early adopters.  CAP shouldn't be an economic burden for parents.  I don't want peer pressure to drive bad financial decisions.   

That said, not much I can do when a cadet shows up on day one with ABU's.   I guess it will just motivate me to source ABU's and accelerate the transition.

News flash:   CAP is an economic burden for parents and has been for years if not decades...  But, it's the parents decision.
After all, they don't have to sign that membership application.  Your job is to be up front with them on the costs before you ask them to sign.

Well, maybe... But I look at it this way:

When you look at the cost of programs other than CAP such as summer camps, youth groups, other after school programs etc., CAP is actually pretty cheap in comparison. A local YMCA summer camp which runs as long as 2 NCSAs goes for almost $700 by the time it's all said and done, per child. Add in after school stuff during the school year, where a similar program at that same YMCA is around 47 per month, and CAP comes close to being on top in the cost category if not well above, and not only that but they are learning leadership, learning aerospace topics, flying, taking once in a lifetime opportunities. Uniforms are a small part of it on the whole. Add in programs to help get those uniforms, and SM's that work hard to help their cadets achieve and this is really an amazing program.

How's THAT for a recruiting spiel. 8) 8) 8) >:D

So, since the announcement only says black boots....


http://www.amazon.com/Bates-Inches-Suede-Durashocks-Steel/dp/B00814TZ7G (http://www.amazon.com/Bates-Inches-Suede-Durashocks-Steel/dp/B00814TZ7G)

>:D

Quote from: DakRadz on May 07, 2016, 04:34:27 PM
So, since the announcement only says black boots....


http://www.amazon.com/Bates-Inches-Suede-Durashocks-Steel/dp/B00814TZ7G (http://www.amazon.com/Bates-Inches-Suede-Durashocks-Steel/dp/B00814TZ7G)

>:D

I don't know how I feel about those boots.... lol. I've got the Blackhawk BlackOps (only because I've had a pair of the same boots in desert suede for like 10 years now and they are still going) and I love them. Super comfy, and I can still shine them if I want.

Quote from: DakRadz on May 07, 2016, 04:34:27 PM
So, since the announcement only says black boots....


http://www.amazon.com/Bates-Inches-Suede-Durashocks-Steel/dp/B00814TZ7G (http://www.amazon.com/Bates-Inches-Suede-Durashocks-Steel/dp/B00814TZ7G)

>:D

Well, the 39-1 says you wear black boots with the BDU. So are you saying that you can wear those with the BDU's too? Cool!

I just ordered new Rocky S2V black boots. I have them in sage green and they're fantastic. I was holding on the order to see what boot color CAP would finally choose for the ABUs. I still don't know if I'll replace my BDUs with ABUs or BBDUs, but either way I'll be set with these.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 07, 2016, 09:19:09 PM
I just ordered new Rocky S2V black boots. I have them in sage green and they're fantastic. I was holding on the order to see what boot color CAP would finally choose for the ABUs. I still don't know if I'll replace my BDUs with ABUs or BBDUs, but either way I'll be set with these.

Some of the best boots I had were my magnums, 5.11s and oakleys

I've got my black Bellevilles and I love'em.

Quote from: Damron on May 07, 2016, 02:00:26 PM
Within the limits of my authority, I am going to attempt to herd cats and establish a reasonable timeline for transition.

My primary motivation is to reduce the economic impact of this change and to hold onto a bit of uniformity until we have enough ABU's to outfit at least half our squadron. 

I hope that we will be well into the transition by the end of the year.   In the meantime, I am discouraging cadets from paying retail for new ABU's.  I want to avoid a scenario where only rich kids are early adopters.  CAP shouldn't be an economic burden for parents.  I don't want peer pressure to drive bad financial decisions.   

That said, not much I can do when a cadet shows up on day one with ABU's.   I guess it will just motivate me to source ABU's and accelerate the transition.

^This.  Agree wholeheartedly, plus, from your later post:

I don't need a "news flash", I'm am precisely aware of the financial burden of CAP on parents.  I also feel that it is the responsibility of CAP to minimize that burden.  <<Yep!>>

I am up front with every parent.  I am also making an effort to let parents know of our efforts to reduce the financial burden.  I want parents to make informed decisions.  I want them to know that they don't have to immediately purchase ABU's and associated items.  <<Yep!>>

Until all of our cadets have ABU's, I will wear BDU's.   <<Not sure about the last point, though.  I'm certainly looking for at least half the unit to have the new uniforms, properly fitting, before we wear them.>>

Quote from: Brit_in_CAP on May 09, 2016, 12:48:05 PM

Quote from: Damron on May 07, 2016, 02:00:26 PM
Within the limits of my authority, I am going to attempt to herd cats and establish a reasonable timeline for transition.

My primary motivation is to reduce the economic impact of this change and to hold onto a bit of uniformity until we have enough ABU's to outfit at least half our squadron. 

I hope that we will be well into the transition by the end of the year.   In the meantime, I am discouraging cadets from paying retail for new ABU's.  I want to avoid a scenario where only rich kids are early adopters.  CAP shouldn't be an economic burden for parents.  I don't want peer pressure to drive bad financial decisions.   

That said, not much I can do when a cadet shows up on day one with ABU's.   I guess it will just motivate me to source ABU's and accelerate the transition.

^This.  Agree wholeheartedly, plus, from your later post:

I don't need a "news flash", I'm am precisely aware of the financial burden of CAP on parents.  I also feel that it is the responsibility of CAP to minimize that burden.  <<Yep!>>

I am up front with every parent.  I am also making an effort to let parents know of our efforts to reduce the financial burden.  I want parents to make informed decisions.  I want them to know that they don't have to immediately purchase ABU's and associated items.  <<Yep!>>

Until all of our cadets have ABU's, I will wear BDU's.   <<Not sure about the last point, though.  I'm certainly looking for at least half the unit to have the new uniforms, properly fitting, before we wear them.>>

CAP costs for Cadets are 'peanuts' by comparison to most of the other things they get involved with, like football, baseball, taekwondo, cheerleading, band, etc., etc.. I'd bet the average kid spends 10 times CAP costs per year just on video games. LOL

Quote from: etodd on May 09, 2016, 02:54:54 PM

Quote from: Brit_in_CAP on May 09, 2016, 12:48:05 PM

Quote from: Damron on May 07, 2016, 02:00:26 PM
Within the limits of my authority, I am going to attempt to herd cats and establish a reasonable timeline for transition.

My primary motivation is to reduce the economic impact of this change and to hold onto a bit of uniformity until we have enough ABU's to outfit at least half our squadron. 

I hope that we will be well into the transition by the end of the year.   In the meantime, I am discouraging cadets from paying retail for new ABU's.  I want to avoid a scenario where only rich kids are early adopters.  CAP shouldn't be an economic burden for parents.  I don't want peer pressure to drive bad financial decisions.   

That said, not much I can do when a cadet shows up on day one with ABU's.   I guess it will just motivate me to source ABU's and accelerate the transition.

^This.  Agree wholeheartedly, plus, from your later post:

I don't need a "news flash", I'm am precisely aware of the financial burden of CAP on parents.  I also feel that it is the responsibility of CAP to minimize that burden.  <<Yep!>>

I am up front with every parent.  I am also making an effort to let parents know of our efforts to reduce the financial burden.  I want parents to make informed decisions.  I want them to know that they don't have to immediately purchase ABU's and associated items.  <<Yep!>>

Until all of our cadets have ABU's, I will wear BDU's.   <<Not sure about the last point, though.  I'm certainly looking for at least half the unit to have the new uniforms, properly fitting, before we wear them.>>

CAP costs for Cadets are 'peanuts' by comparison to most of the other things they get involved with, like football, baseball, taekwondo, cheerleading, band, etc., etc.. I'd bet the average kid spends 10 times CAP costs per year just on video games. LOL

Agreed.  My son's Boy Scout uniform cost nearly $200 plus a ton of sewing for all of the badges.  This price doesn't include shoes/boots either.  The dues for him were well over $70/year, summer camp was north of $250, Jamboree a couple of years ago set us back nearly $2000.  CAP is definitely the best deal in town.

Activity t-shirts will probably go the way of the dodo as well, considering the change in color, not that anything
other then black has been authorized since at least 2014.

With everyone wearing black, costs and hassle are a lot less then having to source two different colors,
track who gets what color in a given size, and also at least two different production runs, not to mention
probably different insignia setups.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 09, 2016, 03:35:24 PM
Activity t-shirts will probably go the way of the dodo as well, considering the change in color, not that anything
other then black has been authorized since at least 2014.

With everyone wearing black, costs and hassle are a lot less then having to source two different colors,
track who gets what color in a given size, and also at least two different production runs, not to mention
probably different insignia setups.

Not going to argue about the T shirts...glad to see the back of the activity items, to be honest.

Not sure I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that the cost per cadet is as low as suggested.  I'm simply not 'tracking' the costs in the same way, I guess.

I wholly agree that CAP is the best deal in town, for activity costs - back in those heady days when we had children in the school system, I must admit that their total costs were very high and CAP is cheap by comparison.   

Regarding the hats question; While the instructions do say that the ABU cap is the only authorized headgear, 39-1 says similarly (current edition) that the BDU cap, CAP baseball cap, or black watch cap are the authorized hats. Is there any indication that they intend to un-write all the parts of 39-1 that allow for other headgear, or is it just to replace the BDU section? I am not among those approved to wear other hats, so I am not trying to hold to anything. I am simply wondering if some posters here are reading it correctly.

39-1 was published with a missing section for ABUs, presumably those will be updated / inserted, though
there's no reason to assume that the current state of the BDU will not simply remain static until the sundown.

Hopefully all the other issues in 39-1 will be corrected at the same time.

Quote from: DesertRat on May 09, 2016, 06:17:02 PM
Is there any indication that they intend to un-write all the parts of 39-1 that allow for other headgear, or is it just to replace the BDU section? .

IIRC, the reason that Chapter 7 was "not used" in the current 39-1, was to allow a clean insertion of the ABU materials.

Ned Lee
Former Member, NUC

That certainly makes sense, as far as the insertion goes, but was the intention to allow for the same exceptions as the BDU headgear or not?

Quote from: Eclipse on May 09, 2016, 06:21:36 PM
Hopefully all the other issues in 39-1 will be corrected at the same time.

What issues? (curious)

Quote from: NIN on May 07, 2016, 03:27:18 PM
FTFY, too. :)
(Nowhere in AR 670-1 is a "cap" or "hat" referred to as a "cover." Thats not an Army term)

'Cover' is a Squiddie and/or Gyrene term... the rest of us call them 'caps' or 'hats'.  :D

Quote from: Trenzalorian on May 09, 2016, 07:51:43 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on May 09, 2016, 06:21:36 PM
Hopefully all the other issues in 39-1 will be corrected at the same time.

What issues? (curious)

They are detailed here in others threads.  Typos, incorrect verbiage, incorrect diagrams.

Quote from: DesertRat on May 09, 2016, 06:23:58 PM
That certainly makes sense, as far as the insertion goes, but was the intention to allow for the same exceptions as the BDU headgear or not?

Why should there be?  In the AF unless you wear a beret or are Red Horse you wear the ABU hat or if the weather calls for it a sage watch cap. 

Right now the guidance is only the ABU how is there anything to interpret otherwise?

Quote from: abdsp51 on May 10, 2016, 03:03:31 AM

Quote from: DesertRat on May 09, 2016, 06:23:58 PM
That certainly makes sense, as far as the insertion goes, but was the intention to allow for the same exceptions as the BDU headgear or not?

Why should there be?  In the AF unless you wear a beret or are Red Horse you wear the ABU hat or if the weather calls for it a sage watch cap. 

Right now the guidance is only the ABU how is there anything to interpret otherwise?

I didn't see anything regarding a sage watch cap in the new ABU announcement/reg thingy. I think a watch cap is an exceedingly useful piece of kit, and that's only based on OH/IN winter experiences. Sometimes the cap just don't cut it.

Quote from: DakRadz on May 10, 2016, 03:14:44 AM

Quote from: abdsp51 on May 10, 2016, 03:03:31 AM

Quote from: DesertRat on May 09, 2016, 06:23:58 PM
That certainly makes sense, as far as the insertion goes, but was the intention to allow for the same exceptions as the BDU headgear or not?

Why should there be?  In the AF unless you wear a beret or are Red Horse you wear the ABU hat or if the weather calls for it a sage watch cap. 

Right now the guidance is only the ABU how is there anything to interpret otherwise?

I didn't see anything regarding a sage watch cap in the new ABU announcement/reg thingy. I think a watch cap is an exceedingly useful piece of kit, and that's only based on OH/IN winter experiences. Sometimes the cap just don't cut it.

I'd say watch caps are a go given this section:

"Cold Weather Accessories. Cold weather accessories will only be worn when wearing authorized outer garments (Exception: gloves worn solely with ABUs). With the exception of functional items, cold weather
accessories are only worn while outdoors."


However, given the amount of nickel and diming and handwringing over "uniformity" I've seen so far, it will probably have to be spelled out in the clearest way possible.

Well I for one am pleased with this change I can now dust off my 5 sets of ABUs left over from my time in service. Now if I can just find a use for those tan DCU, and green ABU boots I have left over. lol :-)

Quote from: DesertRat on May 09, 2016, 06:23:58 PM
That certainly makes sense, as far as the insertion goes, but was the intention to allow for the same exceptions as the BDU headgear or not?

Given the express instructions on headgear, I would say no exceptions will be made. I'm waiting for the folks who call themselves a French hat to explode or claim not authorizing the beret was merely an oversight and that it really is authorized.

I've seen multiple cadets on my facebook say "oh they'll authorize them eventually" and "I'll just wear BBDUs instead so I can keep wearing my beret." I think it's really funny actually. Berets aren't a big deal.

The black boots really need to go. Why is cap suddenly turned into a cost saving program. We got rid of the american flag because of "cost reduction" and the patch and sewing costs less than 5 dollars. Just let us have the OPTION of sage green boots also. This makes it so that they can be "cost effective" as well as professional looking.

They are also time consuming when you have to take time to polish them and keep them real nice and spiffy. We should have shoes that are like a combination of blues shoes and BDU shoes. Without all the polishing.

Quote from: Chica on May 10, 2016, 01:27:09 PM
They are also time consuming when you have to take time to polish them and keep them real nice and spiffy. We should have shoes that are like a combination of blues shoes and BDU shoes. Without all the polishing.

That is a horrible idea.  The chorofram material is a pain to keep clean and sre no where near as sturdy as leather.  You get a good gouge or scuff in them and that pair of boots is done. 

Leather boots are 10x easier to care for and maintain and more affordable and can last years. 

Quote from: Creed on May 10, 2016, 01:23:16 PM
The black boots really need to go. Why is cap suddenly turned into a cost saving program. We got rid of the american flag because of "cost reduction" and the patch and sewing costs less than 5 dollars. Just let us have the OPTION of sage green boots also. This makes it so that they can be "cost effective" as well as professional looking.

Want to wear sage boots with ABUs go down to your recruiter and enlist.  There is a reason the black boots were kept and it's been explained. 

9 pages......NINE PAGES of people [censored]ing about getting what they wanted with this uniform. If this much energy went into selling our ES capabilities or performing our AE mission or training cadets to be good citizens, there would be no corner of the nation where CAP would be unknown. I am surprised but shouldn't be. You wanted the ABU, you got it. Quit crying over the boots. You're not in the Air Force. Great mother of pearl....

Quote from: THRAWN on May 10, 2016, 02:26:55 PM
9 pages......NINE PAGES of people [censored]ing about getting what they wanted with this uniform. If this much energy went into selling our ES capabilities or performing our AE mission or training cadets to be good citizens, there would be no corner of the nation where CAP would be unknown. I am surprised but shouldn't be. You wanted the ABU, you got it. Quit crying over the boots. You're not in the Air Force. Great mother of pearl....

9 pages in a uniform thread? We're just getting warmed up!  >:D

Quote from: arajca on May 10, 2016, 02:30:53 PM
9 pages in a uniform thread? We're just getting warmed up!  >:D

Only 4 for me, this is nothing.  >:D

Quote from: THRAWN on May 10, 2016, 02:26:55 PM
9 pages......NINE PAGES of people [censored]ing about getting what they wanted with this uniform. If this much energy went into selling our ES capabilities or performing our AE mission or training cadets to be good citizens, there would be no corner of the nation where CAP would be unknown. I am surprised but shouldn't be. You wanted the ABU, you got it. Quit crying over the boots. You're not in the Air Force. Great mother of pearl....

Agreed.

Quote from: jeders on May 10, 2016, 03:53:04 PM

Quote from: arajca on May 10, 2016, 02:30:53 PM
9 pages in a uniform thread? We're just getting warmed up!  >:D

Only 4 for me, this is nothing.  >:D

Quote from: THRAWN on May 10, 2016, 02:26:55 PM
9 pages......NINE PAGES of people [censored]ing about getting what they wanted with this uniform. If this much energy went into selling our ES capabilities or performing our AE mission or training cadets to be good citizens, there would be no corner of the nation where CAP would be unknown. I am surprised but shouldn't be. You wanted the ABU, you got it. Quit crying over the boots. You're not in the Air Force. Great mother of pearl....

Agreed.

Same here. Makes searching things easier with more comments / page.

At this point I have simply decided to wear the BBDU with the new nametapes and rank. Looks professional and doesn't cause an issue with the boots. That's my first and only post on this topic, and my 0.02 on this issue.

Quote from: THRAWN on May 10, 2016, 02:26:55 PM
9 pages......NINE PAGES of people [censored]ing about getting what they wanted with this uniform. If this much energy went into selling our ES capabilities or performing our AE mission or training cadets to be good citizens, there would be no corner of the nation where CAP would be unknown. I am surprised but shouldn't be. You wanted the ABU, you got it. Quit crying over the boots. You're not in the Air Force. Great mother of pearl....

And yeah, he makes a strong point here. If we (as CAP members) cared a little more about SAR, CP and AE and a little bit less about what we wear, our program would be many times stronger and respected.

Quote from: Toth on May 10, 2016, 04:33:15 PM
At this point I have simply decided to wear the BBDU with the new nametapes and rank. Looks professional and doesn't cause an issue with the boots. That's my first and only post on this topic, and my 0.02 on this issue.

Quote from: THRAWN on May 10, 2016, 02:26:55 PM
9 pages......NINE PAGES of people [censored]ing about getting what they wanted with this uniform. If this much energy went into selling our ES capabilities or performing our AE mission or training cadets to be good citizens, there would be no corner of the nation where CAP would be unknown. I am surprised but shouldn't be. You wanted the ABU, you got it. Quit crying over the boots. You're not in the Air Force. Great mother of pearl....

And yeah, he makes a strong point here. If we (as CAP members) cared a little more about SAR, CP and AE and a little bit less about what we wear, our program would be many times stronger and respected.

Quote1.2.3.2. Cadets will wear the USAF-style uniforms as outlined in this manual as a key component of their cadet experience. However, cadets over age 18 who are not eligible to wear the USAF-style uniforms due to not meeting weight standards are authorized to wear all Corporate-style uniform combinations, except the Corporate Working Uniform since it does not allow for wear of rank insignia.

You're currently the C/CC at your unit. What example are you going to show your cadets? You want to have a formation with three uniforms? Are you so sure your commander will even allow you to do so, unless specifically required as stated above?

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on May 10, 2016, 04:53:54 PM

Quote from: Toth on May 10, 2016, 04:33:15 PM
At this point I have simply decided to wear the BBDU with the new nametapes and rank. Looks professional and doesn't cause an issue with the boots. That's my first and only post on this topic, and my 0.02 on this issue.

Quote from: THRAWN on May 10, 2016, 02:26:55 PM
9 pages......NINE PAGES of people [censored]ing about getting what they wanted with this uniform. If this much energy went into selling our ES capabilities or performing our AE mission or training cadets to be good citizens, there would be no corner of the nation where CAP would be unknown. I am surprised but shouldn't be. You wanted the ABU, you got it. Quit crying over the boots. You're not in the Air Force. Great mother of pearl....

And yeah, he makes a strong point here. If we (as CAP members) cared a little more about SAR, CP and AE and a little bit less about what we wear, our program would be many times stronger and respected.

Quote1.2.3.2. Cadets will wear the USAF-style uniforms as outlined in this manual as a key component of their cadet experience. However, cadets over age 18 who are not eligible to wear the USAF-style uniforms due to not meeting weight standards are authorized to wear all Corporate-style uniform combinations, except the Corporate Working Uniform since it does not allow for wear of rank insignia.

You're currently the C/CC at your unit. What example are you going to show your cadets? You want to have a formation with three uniforms? Are you so sure your commander will even allow you to do so, unless specifically required as stated above?

You are correct sir, my apologies, what I meant by that was I will wear the BBDU when I go senior member in the near future, I will continue wearing the BDU for the remainder of the summer due to the requirements of NCSAs and encampments.

Quote from: Creed on May 10, 2016, 01:23:16 PM
The black boots really need to go. Why is cap suddenly turned into a cost saving program. We got rid of the american flag because of "cost reduction" and the patch and sewing costs less than 5 dollars. Just let us have the OPTION of sage green boots also. This makes it so that they can be "cost effective" as well as professional looking.

The flag was not eliminated as a "cost reduction".  It was eliminated because it was not a part of the Air Force uniform the minute it was introduced in 2007, but it took that long to finally kill it.

Just chill out on the boots. Things may change down the road.  BDUs were originally worn in very odd ways in 1991, and by the end of 1992, things hand changed.

here is my spin, I watch very little change with the AR-670-1 during the first 10 years of my career with the Army, then 2000 hit, and it felt like a new 670-1 was printed Bi-weekly to change something some General or Another didn't like about the Army uniform. It is still occurring to this day and I have been retired 6 years now. Thing some people have to remember is that this organization is operated by a military entity, and you have to have patients and be flexi-Gumby when changes are made. There is my two cents, even though I wear corporate.

Quote from: arajca on May 10, 2016, 01:15:09 PM

Quote from: DesertRat on May 09, 2016, 06:23:58 PM
That certainly makes sense, as far as the insertion goes, but was the intention to allow for the same exceptions as the BDU headgear or not?

Given the express instructions on headgear, I would say no exceptions will be made. I'm waiting for the folks who call themselves a French hat to explode or claim not authorizing the beret was merely an oversight and that it really is authorized.

I think it's funny that you're bringing it up. I have one, but I'm not overly concerned. The 'french hats' aren't what matters about that program anyways...

Mission comes first....after all...

The best Idea I have seen on the issue of the boots is that the Sage green, Army tan or new coyote, should be authorized to be worn alongside the black boots for ABU's

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

Quote from: youduho on May 11, 2016, 01:44:42 AM
The best Idea I have seen on the issue of the boots is that the Sage green, Army tan or new coyote, should be authorized to be worn alongside the black boots for ABU's

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

Sage boots are a horrible idea and color and have been since it was adopted with the ABU in the AF.  They are a pain to keep clean and once they get coated in sand good luck getting it out.

Quote from: abdsp51 on May 11, 2016, 03:09:50 AM

Quote from: youduho on May 11, 2016, 01:44:42 AM
The best Idea I have seen on the issue of the boots is that the Sage green, Army tan or new coyote, should be authorized to be worn alongside the black boots for ABU's

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

Sage boots are a horrible idea and color and have been since it was adopted with the ABU in the AF.  They are a pain to keep clean and once they get coated in sand good luck getting it out.

Black boots are a pain to clean as well and then you also have to shine them.

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Quote from: youduho on May 11, 2016, 03:20:01 AM
Black boots are a pain to clean as well and then you also have to shine them.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

I'll take cleaning and shining leather over cleaning suede any day.  Leather is 10x easier to care for.  Either way Ma Blue and the NUC have spoken.

Quote from: abdsp51 on May 11, 2016, 03:51:18 AM

Quote from: youduho on May 11, 2016, 03:20:01 AM
Black boots are a pain to clean as well and then you also have to shine them.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

I'll take cleaning and shining leather over cleaning suede any day.  Leather is 10x easier to care for.  Either way Ma Blue and the NUC have spoken.

Well if all of the colors were authorized then you could still use your black boots.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

Quote from: youduho on May 11, 2016, 03:54:48 AM

Quote from: abdsp51 on May 11, 2016, 03:51:18 AM

Quote from: youduho on May 11, 2016, 03:20:01 AM
Black boots are a pain to clean as well and then you also have to shine them.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

I'll take cleaning and shining leather over cleaning suede any day.  Leather is 10x easier to care for.  Either way Ma Blue and the NUC have spoken.

Well if all of the colors were authorized then you could still use your black boots.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

Well, there's that pesky "uniform" thing involved, too.

Let me ask you a Q - how much real, long term experience do you have with suede footwear? My smooth leather boots are regularly abused, and cleaning them usually only involves a stiff brush, a damp rag, and a coat of polish. Suede (which is also leather that's been treated differently) never ever gets completely clean, and is much more susceptible to staining, particularly by greasy/oily materials.

I haven't had much trouble with my suede boots and I've had the same pair since 2011.

My green suedes are relatively easy to clean and I've taken them tromping through some nasty crap which should have discolored them a long time ago. But, a stiff brush and a shower works well every time. They also make suede cleaning kits which work very well also.

I haven't had much trouble with my black leather boots and I had the same 2 pairs since 2000.

I've had my pair of black boots for many years too. Nothing wrong with them. But that doesn't make suede boots a bad choice either. They both have advantages and disadvantages.

Having worn both suede and leather boots, I think they are both fine.  The USAF and CAP have spoken and black boots it is.  They both have pros and cons each.  Personally, I like the suede boots as it eliminates the unnecessary time polishing them.  Sure they can stain if oil or other harsh chemicals are on them.  Nevertheless, the world has not ended yet because a pair of stained suede boots. 

But then again:

"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.

There is another theory which states that this has already happened."

I'm trying to figure out what takes everybody so long to shine a pair of boots. Once you get a good base on them it takes minutes to make them shiny again. I wear black boots everyday and they have to be shined. Yesterday my boots got all sorts of scuffed up. Took me less than 5 minutes to make them shiny. My CAP boots I didn't even have to shine this week because they were still shined from two weeks ago.

Quote from: stillamarine on May 11, 2016, 02:12:30 PM
I'm trying to figure out what takes everybody so long to shine a pair of boots. Once you get a good base on them it takes minutes to make them shiny again. I wear black boots everyday and they have to be shined. Yesterday my boots got all sorts of scuffed up. Took me less than 5 minutes to make them shiny. My CAP boots I didn't even have to shine this week because they were still shined from two weeks ago.

I've had a pair of boots that I've worn most days for the past 20+ years. It doesn't take that long to put a coat of polish on them.

Quote from: stillamarine on May 11, 2016, 02:12:30 PM
I'm trying to figure out what takes everybody so long to shine a pair of boots. Once you get a good base on them it takes minutes to make them shiny again. I wear black boots everyday and they have to be shined. Yesterday my boots got all sorts of scuffed up. Took me less than 5 minutes to make them shiny. My CAP boots I didn't even have to shine this week because they were still shined from two weeks ago.

I've lived in my current place for 2 years. When I moved in, my shoe shine kit went into the gaping maw that is the basement. I haven't seen it since. Neither have my jump boots. They still look awesome. 

:)

Quote from: NIN on May 11, 2016, 05:12:42 PM

Quote from: stillamarine on May 11, 2016, 02:12:30 PM
I'm trying to figure out what takes everybody so long to shine a pair of boots. Once you get a good base on them it takes minutes to make them shiny again. I wear black boots everyday and they have to be shined. Yesterday my boots got all sorts of scuffed up. Took me less than 5 minutes to make them shiny. My CAP boots I didn't even have to shine this week because they were still shined from two weeks ago.

I've lived in my current place for 2 years. When I moved in, my shoe shine kit went into the gaping maw that is the basement. I haven't seen it since. Neither have my jump boots. They still look awesome. 

:)

When I joined CAP a few years ago, I pulled my boots out of my duffle bag, wiped off the dust and buffed them with a stocking and they looked great.  They had been in storage for probably 4 years at that point.  I don't think I ever spent more than 10-15 minutes on my boots, even when I was doing Honor Guard in the Air Force.

Quote from: stillamarine on May 11, 2016, 02:12:30 PM
I'm trying to figure out what takes everybody so long to shine a pair of boots. Once you get a good base on them it takes minutes to make them shiny again. I wear black boots everyday and they have to be shined. Yesterday my boots got all sorts of scuffed up. Took me less than 5 minutes to make them shiny. My CAP boots I didn't even have to shine this week because they were still shined from two weeks ago.

You're clearly doing it wrong.  Shining boots properly requires water from the highest mountain spring, a dragon's breath to heat the
polish, and a cloth made from the Veil of the Bride of Grabthar.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 11, 2016, 07:46:59 PM

Quote from: stillamarine on May 11, 2016, 02:12:30 PM
I'm trying to figure out what takes everybody so long to shine a pair of boots. Once you get a good base on them it takes minutes to make them shiny again. I wear black boots everyday and they have to be shined. Yesterday my boots got all sorts of scuffed up. Took me less than 5 minutes to make them shiny. My CAP boots I didn't even have to shine this week because they were still shined from two weeks ago.

You're clearly doing it wrong.  Shining boots properly requires water from the highest mountain spring, a dragon's breath to heat the
polish, and a cloth made from the Veil of the Bride of Grabthar.

I also chant "Never give up, Never surrender" while preparing the shoes to be polished.

Transition to "I will not fear, fear is the mindkiller" when actually polishing.

"Buffin' it out, buffin'  it out,
Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh,
Buffin' it ou-u-u-ut"

With the BeeGees singing in the background.

Hey!

That "Buffin it out" chant fits right in with the count for the CPR compresions just like the Stayin' Alive and Another One Beats the Bush by Queen!

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on May 11, 2016, 09:45:58 PM
Hey!

That "Buffin it out" chant fits right in with the count for the CPR compresions just like the Stayin' Alive and Another One Beats the Bush by Queen!

"Buffin it out" = Stayin' Alive

Your music foo is weak.  >:D

Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on May 11, 2016, 07:53:06 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on May 11, 2016, 07:46:59 PM

Quote from: stillamarine on May 11, 2016, 02:12:30 PM
I'm trying to figure out what takes everybody so long to shine a pair of boots. Once you get a good base on them it takes minutes to make them shiny again. I wear black boots everyday and they have to be shined. Yesterday my boots got all sorts of scuffed up. Took me less than 5 minutes to make them shiny. My CAP boots I didn't even have to shine this week because they were still shined from two weeks ago.

You're clearly doing it wrong.  Shining boots properly requires water from the highest mountain spring, a dragon's breath to heat the
polish, and a cloth made from the Veil of the Bride of Grabthar.

I also chant "Never give up, Never surrender" while preparing the shoes to be polished.

Transition to "I will not fear, fear is the mindkiller" when actually polishing.

Fear is the little stain, that brings total shine obliteration. I will face my fear, and will permit the polish to pass over my boot leather, and when it has gone past I will turn my inner eye to see the path of the cloth over the boot, and where the cloth and brush have gone there will be nothing.

Only the shine will remain!

V/R
Spam

("Kull Wahad! From his mouth, he gives water to the shine!")

("FATHER!  The SHINE MUST AWAKEN"!)

https://youtu.be/R0sw2CgysWY

https://youtu.be/uR131fc2pZY   

Quote from: stillamarine on May 11, 2016, 02:12:30 PM
I'm trying to figure out what takes everybody so long to shine a pair of boots. Once you get a good base on them it takes minutes to make them shiny again. I wear black boots everyday and they have to be shined. Yesterday my boots got all sorts of scuffed up. Took me less than 5 minutes to make them shiny. My CAP boots I didn't even have to shine this week because they were still shined from two weeks ago.

Someone else has probably pointed this out but- at the risk of sounding like I should be shaking my fist at people trespassing on my grass- the idea of spending even a few minutes accomplishing something like that is foreign to many people especially those of a generation that gripes if a website takes more than five seconds to load.  LOL

Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on May 11, 2016, 07:53:06 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on May 11, 2016, 07:46:59 PM

Quote from: stillamarine on May 11, 2016, 02:12:30 PM
I'm trying to figure out what takes everybody so long to shine a pair of boots. Once you get a good base on them it takes minutes to make them shiny again. I wear black boots everyday and they have to be shined. Yesterday my boots got all sorts of scuffed up. Took me less than 5 minutes to make them shiny. My CAP boots I didn't even have to shine this week because they were still shined from two weeks ago.

You're clearly doing it wrong.  Shining boots properly requires water from the highest mountain spring, a dragon's breath to heat the
polish, and a cloth made from the Veil of the Bride of Grabthar.

I also chant "Never give up, Never surrender" while preparing the shoes to be polished.

Transition to "I will not fear, fear is the mindkiller" when actually polishing.

When I shine my boots, I obtain only the highest quality wax meticulously collected from the Himalayan Cliff Bee, darkened with vegan grown enzymes and pigments, lightly whipped into a fondue and garnished with a emulsion of Andean Bear urine and organic cellulose residue.   I then use yak tears harvested from the high steppes of Kazakhstan, held in a artisan blown glass dish atop a portable dewar of liquid oxygen distilled by SpaceX to wet my 1000 year old cotton polishing cloth before I dab the polish on and begin a 4-7 hour loving Buhddist chant cycle while making 1-2 nanometer diameter circles in the polish...

What, doesn't everybody else do that?

Quote from: NIN on May 12, 2016, 08:56:08 PM

Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on May 11, 2016, 07:53:06 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on May 11, 2016, 07:46:59 PM

Quote from: stillamarine on May 11, 2016, 02:12:30 PM
I'm trying to figure out what takes everybody so long to shine a pair of boots. Once you get a good base on them it takes minutes to make them shiny again. I wear black boots everyday and they have to be shined. Yesterday my boots got all sorts of scuffed up. Took me less than 5 minutes to make them shiny. My CAP boots I didn't even have to shine this week because they were still shined from two weeks ago.

You're clearly doing it wrong.  Shining boots properly requires water from the highest mountain spring, a dragon's breath to heat the
polish, and a cloth made from the Veil of the Bride of Grabthar.

I also chant "Never give up, Never surrender" while preparing the shoes to be polished.

Transition to "I will not fear, fear is the mindkiller" when actually polishing.

When I shine my boots, I obtain only the highest quality wax meticulously collected from the Himalayan Cliff Bee, darkened with vegan grown enzymes and pigments, lightly whipped into a fondue and garnished with a emulsion of Andean Bear urine and organic cellulose residue.   I then use yak tears harvested from the high steppes of Kazakhstan, held in a artisan blown glass dish atop a portable dewar of liquid oxygen distilled by SpaceX to wet my 1000 year old cotton polishing cloth before I dab the polish on and begin a 4-7 hour loving Buhddist chant cycle while making 1-2 nanometer diameter circles in the polish...

What, doesn't everybody else do that?

And garnished with Lark's Vomit.

Lark's Vomit? It doesn't say anything about that on the package!

Quote from: wacapgh on May 13, 2016, 07:04:31 PM
Lark's Vomit? It doesn't say anything about that on the package!

Yes it does, right under "monosodium gluetimate."

I'm just going to get black suede boots.  Problem solved!

Quote from: NIN on May 12, 2016, 08:56:08 PM

Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on May 11, 2016, 07:53:06 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on May 11, 2016, 07:46:59 PM

Quote from: stillamarine on May 11, 2016, 02:12:30 PM
I'm trying to figure out what takes everybody so long to shine a pair of boots. Once you get a good base on them it takes minutes to make them shiny again. I wear black boots everyday and they have to be shined. Yesterday my boots got all sorts of scuffed up. Took me less than 5 minutes to make them shiny. My CAP boots I didn't even have to shine this week because they were still shined from two weeks ago.

You're clearly doing it wrong.  Shining boots properly requires water from the highest mountain spring, a dragon's breath to heat the
polish, and a cloth made from the Veil of the Bride of Grabthar.

I also chant "Never give up, Never surrender" while preparing the shoes to be polished.

Transition to "I will not fear, fear is the mindkiller" when actually polishing.

When I shine my boots, I obtain only the highest quality wax meticulously collected from the Himalayan Cliff Bee, darkened with vegan grown enzymes and pigments, lightly whipped into a fondue and garnished with a emulsion of Andean Bear urine and organic cellulose residue.   I then use yak tears harvested from the high steppes of Kazakhstan, held in a artisan blown glass dish atop a portable dewar of liquid oxygen distilled by SpaceX to wet my 1000 year old cotton polishing cloth before I dab the polish on and begin a 4-7 hour loving Buhddist chant cycle while making 1-2 nanometer diameter circles in the polish...

What, doesn't everybody else do that?

Hey Nin,

cellulose residue would make the wax very grainy.

LOX would cause the yak tears to freeze solid, which makes it very hard to use.

Cotton wasn't popular in Europe until well into the Medieval period, which would put the origin of that cloth outside of Europe, and thus quite unlikely. Also, it probably would have rotted, or fallen apart well before this point.

1-2 nm diameter circles are well below the wavelength of visible light, thus would be completely imperceptible. In fact, given the wavelength of 1-2 nm, that puts us squarely in the X-ray band, which may cause issues.

Overall Score: Need to work on your polishing technique. It does not meet CAP standards, and will leave your boots both destroyed, and worse yet, matte.


>:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D

Having already worn ABUs previously, I'm planning to stick with the BBDUs as well simply because they are far more comfortable and functional in the field. ABUs were never really designed to function outside of an office/CONUS environment which is why the vast majority of Air Force line personnel overseas wear Multicam (there are exceptions obviously). Again, I didn't wear them in the field which I'm greatful for because they are heavy and don't breathe. This was a few years ago so maybe a lighter version has come out, but my overall impression was no thanks.

I'm sure I'll get plenty of opposition for this too, but I never really saw the purpose to switch to ABUs specifically other than just to say "hey air force, look, over here, we're part of the club too!" even though some would argue against that. Sure we are technically members of "total force", but at the end of the day having ABUs doesn't really serve a purpose to us beyond just being the USAF Aux. Do we need a new working uniform? Yes; however I feel ABUs will end up being disliked by CAP members over time.

Quote from: Sketch on May 15, 2016, 01:59:23 AM
Having already worn ABUs previously, I'm planning to stick with the BBDUs as well simply because they are far more comfortable and functional in the field. ABUs were never really designed to function outside of an office/CONUS environment which is why the vast majority of Air Force line personnel overseas wear Multicam (there are exceptions obviously). Again, I didn't wear them in the field which I'm greatful for because they are heavy and don't breathe. This was a few years ago so maybe a lighter version has come out, but my overall impression was no thanks.

I'm sure I'll get plenty of opposition for this too, but I never really saw the purpose to switch to ABUs specifically other than just to say "hey air force, look, over here, we're part of the club too!" even though some would argue against that. Sure we are technically members of "total force", but at the end of the day having ABUs doesn't really serve a purpose to us beyond just being the USAF Aux. Do we need a new working uniform? Yes; however I feel ABUs will end up being disliked by CAP members over time.

Yeah, there's been a few changes like the Rip Stop ABU's which are much lighter. And the only place the "Multicam" uniform is worn is in the CENTCOM AOR. They're wearing ABU's in Europe and Asia.
Go ahead and wear the BBDU's. Somebody has to keep buying them from Scamguard...

Quote from: PHall on May 15, 2016, 02:08:07 AM
Yeah, there's been a few changes like the Rip Stop ABU's which are much lighter. And the only place the "Multicam" uniform is worn is in the CENTCOM AOR. They're wearing ABU's in Europe and Asia.
Go ahead and wear the BBDU's. Somebody has to keep buying them from Scamguard...

Thanks for the info, mine were probably a "winter weight" than which is why they weren't that great.

Also I don't buy ANY clothing from vanguard. I get all of my uniforms brand new from other websites like ebay and tacticalgear.com (which also happens to have brand new proper BDUs). Prices are often cheaper and shipping is much more affordable and faster this way.

Switching from the BDU to the Corporate Field Uniform ("BBDU") has been one of the best decisions I've made in CAP. The new ABU design CAP wants to go for is hilariously ugly and I just can't take it seriously. But if you wear the CFU with the new matching tapes, sleeves rolled up, and maintain the AF h/w/g standard, you can look very professional like an actual SAR officer. I'm slowly convincing the other officers in my unit to transfer from the BDU to the CFU as well. Hopefully we can get all officers in the CFU and all cadets into ABUs soon.

It's also fun wearing the Air Force Service Dress for formal wear but the Corporate Field Uniform for utility work because whenever someone tells me it's a blues night I can jokingly ask "which one?"

On a side note, does anyone think CAP will authorize those "morale Friday" t-shirts the AF loves? If we're going to look like clowns in the ABUs we might as well join in the fun and wear those pink / orange t-shirts so many AF squadrons seem to love.

Quote from: Hyperion on May 15, 2016, 08:37:54 AM

On a side note, does anyone think CAP will authorize those "morale Friday" t-shirts the AF loves? If we're going to look like clowns in the ABUs we might as well join in the fun and wear those pink / orange t-shirts so many AF squadrons seem to love.

Dude they got rid of all that what feels like forever ago. No friday patch, and no friday shirt.

Quote from: DocJekyll on May 15, 2016, 03:02:28 PM

Quote from: Hyperion on May 15, 2016, 08:37:54 AM

On a side note, does anyone think CAP will authorize those "morale Friday" t-shirts the AF loves? If we're going to look like clowns in the ABUs we might as well join in the fun and wear those pink / orange t-shirts so many AF squadrons seem to love.

Dude they got rid of all that what feels like forever ago. No friday patch, and no friday shirt.

You better check a current version of AFI 36-2903, because they're authorized. Unit Commander's option.

Quote from: Sketch on May 15, 2016, 01:59:23 AM
Having already worn ABUs previously, I'm planning to stick with the BBDUs as well simply because they are far more comfortable and functional in the field. ABUs were never really designed to function outside of an office/CONUS environment which is why the vast majority of Air Force line personnel overseas wear Multicam (there are exceptions obviously). Again, I didn't wear them in the field which I'm greatful for because they are heavy and don't breathe. This was a few years ago so maybe a lighter version has come out, but my overall impression was no thanks.

I'm sure I'll get plenty of opposition for this too, but I never really saw the purpose to switch to ABUs specifically other than just to say "hey air force, look, over here, we're part of the club too!" even though some would argue against that. Sure we are technically members of "total force", but at the end of the day having ABUs doesn't really serve a purpose to us beyond just being the USAF Aux. Do we need a new working uniform? Yes; however I feel ABUs will end up being disliked by CAP members over time.

All the same arguements we heard 25 years ago when we switched to BDUs. "CAP is going to end", "No reason to change our uniform", "We don't need a camo uniform," "BDUs are so ugly". It's the nature of the beast. Ten years from now, no one will even remember these arguements.

Quote from: PHall on May 15, 2016, 03:18:23 PMYou better check a current version of AFI 36-2903, because they're authorized. Unit Commander's option.

Well, no wonder nobody does it anymore, it's allowed now.

Quote from: PHall on May 15, 2016, 03:18:23 PM

Quote from: DocJekyll on May 15, 2016, 03:02:28 PM

Quote from: Hyperion on May 15, 2016, 08:37:54 AM

On a side note, does anyone think CAP will authorize those "morale Friday" t-shirts the AF loves? If we're going to look like clowns in the ABUs we might as well join in the fun and wear those pink / orange t-shirts so many AF squadrons seem to love.

Dude they got rid of all that what feels like forever ago. No friday patch, and no friday shirt.

You better check a current version of AFI 36-2903, because they're authorized. Unit Commander's option.

Yeah, but good luck. lol. Every base I've been to in the last 3-4 years. :(

Quote from: DocJekyll on May 15, 2016, 03:50:25 PM
Yeah, but good luck. lol. Every base I've been to in the last 3-4 years. :(

Every base I have been too since they have been authorized has had them starting in 2013.  Where have you been going? 

Quote from: abdsp51 on May 15, 2016, 04:03:10 PM

Quote from: DocJekyll on May 15, 2016, 03:50:25 PM
Yeah, but good luck. lol. Every base I've been to in the last 3-4 years. :(

Every base I have been too since they have been authorized has had them starting in 2013.  Where have you been going?

I'll go ahead and retract my statement. Apperantly I was being a misinformed POG according to one of my friends. hahaha ;D >:D :clap:

I will say it's mostly a Flying Unit thing. Haven't seen too many other units on base doing it.

Quote from: PHall on May 15, 2016, 06:02:36 PM
I will say it's mostly a Flying Unit thing. Haven't seen too many other units on base doing it.

I've seen several non-flying units with moral/Friday t-shirts.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 15, 2016, 06:13:47 PM

Quote from: PHall on May 15, 2016, 06:02:36 PM
I will say it's mostly a Flying Unit thing. Haven't seen too many other units on base doing it.

I've seen several non-flying units with moral/Friday t-shirts.

We had them at DM during my time there 2013-2014, had them at Osan 2015 and here at Travis current.   So it's not just flying units.  In fact the LRS at Kunsan has pink moral shirts..

Quote from: abdsp51 on May 15, 2016, 06:16:02 PM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 15, 2016, 06:13:47 PM

Quote from: PHall on May 15, 2016, 06:02:36 PM
I will say it's mostly a Flying Unit thing. Haven't seen too many other units on base doing it.

I've seen several non-flying units with moral/Friday t-shirts.

We had them at DM during my time there 2013-2014, had them at Osan 2015 and here at Travis current.   So it's not just flying units.  In fact the LRS at Kunsan has pink moral shirts..

Guess you didn't notice my use of the word "mostly" and the phrase "too many other units".

Quote from: PHall on May 16, 2016, 03:10:18 AM
Guess you didn't notice my use of the word "mostly" and the phrase "too many other units".

No I noticed and provided data against it.  That may be your experience with it but mine and I'm pretty sure plenty others have been the same.

Quote from: abdsp51 on May 16, 2016, 03:12:35 AM

Quote from: PHall on May 16, 2016, 03:10:18 AM
Guess you didn't notice my use of the word "mostly" and the phrase "too many other units".

No I noticed and provided data against it.  That may be your experience with it but mine and I'm pretty sure plenty others have been the same.

Well, I spent the last 18 years of my career in the Reserve. Most of the non-flyers tended to be the 2 days a month and 2 weeks in the summer types.
If it wasn't required, it didn't happen. The flyers and the full time folks were a different cup of tea.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 15, 2016, 06:13:47 PM

Quote from: PHall on May 15, 2016, 06:02:36 PM
I will say it's mostly a Flying Unit thing. Haven't seen too many other units on base doing it.

I've seen several non-flying units with moral/Friday t-shirts.

Some AF commands like them more than others..

I just heard that ABUs are not authorized for wear at the NYWG encampment in July. I cant find any info on the encampment website  or wing website to support this. Is this allowed?

Quote from: SMWOG on May 20, 2016, 03:20:21 AM
I just heard that ABUs are not authorized for wear at the NYWG encampment in July. I cant find any info on the encampment website  or wing website to support this. Is this allowed?

You'd have to ask them.

Interesting side question - are cadets who get CEAP supposed to buy BDUs or ABUs?  And if they get them
free from AAFES, should they return the CEAP uniform money?

Quote from: SMWOG on May 20, 2016, 03:20:21 AM
I just heard that ABUs are not authorized for wear at the NYWG encampment in July. I cant find any info on the encampment website  or wing website to support this. Is this allowed?

I believe that the same applies to the NCWG encampment as well.

Quote from: SMWOG on May 20, 2016, 03:20:21 AM
I just heard that ABUs are not authorized for wear at the NYWG encampment in July. I cant find any info on the encampment website  or wing website to support this. Is this allowed?

I know Blue Beret is also only allowing BDUs for wear this summer. As far as if it is allowed... yeah, I think it's well within their scope of authority to say members should only wear a certain uniform to an event, in the same way a squadron can say you should only wear a certain uniform to a local event.

Quote from: Toth on May 20, 2016, 05:29:53 AM

Quote from: SMWOG on May 20, 2016, 03:20:21 AM
I just heard that ABUs are not authorized for wear at the NYWG encampment in July. I cant find any info on the encampment website  or wing website to support this. Is this allowed?

I know Blue Beret is also only allowing BDUs for wear this summer. As far as if it is allowed... yeah, I think it's well within their scope of authority to say members should only wear a certain uniform to an event, in the same way a squadron can say you should only wear a certain uniform to a local event.

Well considering right now the beret is only authorised for BBDU's and BDU's, I'm not that surprised on that one for NBB. I'm just thinking if you have a BRAND NEW member, and they go and get ABU's instead of BDU's since they are the new uniform, why would they be restricted from using it? It takes time to get uniforms together, and looking right. I guess I don't see the point in disallowing them unless it was "only cadets having joined after this date may wear ABU's, all others will wear BDU's." That's what INWG encampment has done.

The odds of a BRAND NEW cadet member joining in June 2016 and attending the NYW encampment in July 2016...slim to none.

Quote from: radioguy on May 20, 2016, 03:48:12 AM

Quote from: SMWOG on May 20, 2016, 03:20:21 AM
I just heard that ABUs are not authorized for wear at the NYWG encampment in July. I cant find any info on the encampment website  or wing website to support this. Is this allowed?

I believe that the same applies to the NCWG encampment as well.

GAWG encampment starts 4 days after authorization, so the encampment CC said no way. No one can get insignia that fast.

Quote from: Garibaldi on May 20, 2016, 12:06:40 PM

Quote from: radioguy on May 20, 2016, 03:48:12 AM

Quote from: SMWOG on May 20, 2016, 03:20:21 AM
I just heard that ABUs are not authorized for wear at the NYWG encampment in July. I cant find any info on the encampment website  or wing website to support this. Is this allowed?

I believe that the same applies to the NCWG encampment as well.

GAWG encampment starts 4 days after authorization, so the encampment CC said no way. No one can get insignia that fast.

Same for OHWG's Encampment.

No one can get insignia that fast?
Members have it now.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 20, 2016, 12:21:17 PM
No one can get insignia that fast?
Members have it now.

Quote1.2.3.4. Vanguard is the authorized vendor for CAP insignia. Items sold through the "Civil
Air Patrol" section of the Vanguard webpage are those approved for wear on the CAP uniform. Members
who buy uniform items from other vendors may not meet CAP regulations, and commanders may direct
the removal of these items from the uniform if they do not meet standards for design, size, material, etc.

Since Vanguard hasn't sold the insignia yet, nobody is 100% sure what the specific shade of grey that will stand in for "silver" is yet, nor what the specific definition of "dark navy blue" will be.

Members obtaining insignia (tapes that say "CIVIL AIR PATROL" and grade insignia, I would suspect) that don't match in color and specification to those items (to eventually be) obtained from Vanguard are asking for trouble.  Never mind getting CAP-specific insignia such as qualification badges, commander's badges, etc, made and in the right shade from a vendor who isn't authorized. (ie. not only might the color be off, but will the embroidery / design look correct?)

So I ask: Why the hurry, folks?  Why go thru the time and expense to have "custom" insignia made that MAY NOT MEET THE SPECS? 

Vanguard will have the insignia available in the next 25 days or so.  Thats three weeks. 

Does anybody really think that Vanguard is still churning out Ultramarine Blue insignia?  "Sorry, we can't even make the new insignia until after midnight on the 15th of June!"  No, they're probably making commander's badges and observer wings and GT badges and grade insignia right now so they have a stock of new insignia ready to ship out when people start ordering it on the 15th.

But again: whats the rush?  There is going to be no prize for being the first guy (or gal.. no need to be sexist) to wear ABUs in your region, wing, group or squadron.

Its not like ABUs are authorized for wear on the 15th of June and BDUs turn into a pumpkin on 1 July or something.

No.  The phase in period is FIVE YEARS. FIVE!

I wear a military aviation badge on my BDUs. I've had them made white-on-ultramarine by a 3rd party vendor for a number of years now. They even cranked me out some white-on-dark-navy insignia last time I ordered, just cuz, you know, "ABUs are coming" (that was 2-ish years ago).  However, hahaha, joke's on me: ABU insignia = "silver-on-dark-navy."  Whoops. Oh well, thats $6 down the drain. :)

But I'm waiting to find out *exactly* what color the ABU insignia will be, FROM VANGUARD, before I go back to my third party vendor and say "Hey, can you make me these aircrew wings silver-on-dark-navy with this shade of grey thread?"  So that my insignia matches correctly the first time and I don't put my commander in the awkward position to have to say "Uh, hey there Lt Col Ninness, that insignia is wrong.."  (I'm the Wing DP, too, so hahaha, joke's on me again: I'm the OPR for uniform issues.  Doesn't do well to have the point-person for uniforms be wearing his stuff all jacked up, right?)

Like I used to have painted just to one side of the door on my helicopter: "If there isn't time to do it right, when is there time to do it again?"

Everybody needs to relax just a little bit.

Quote from: Paul Creed III on May 20, 2016, 12:11:38 PM

Quote from: Garibaldi on May 20, 2016, 12:06:40 PM

Quote from: radioguy on May 20, 2016, 03:48:12 AM

Quote from: SMWOG on May 20, 2016, 03:20:21 AM
I just heard that ABUs are not authorized for wear at the NYWG encampment in July. I cant find any info on the encampment website  or wing website to support this. Is this allowed?

I believe that the same applies to the NCWG encampment as well.

GAWG encampment starts 4 days after authorization, so the encampment CC said no way. No one can get insignia that fast.

Same for OHWG's Encampment.

Maj Creed,

BDUs for Basics, and ABUs for staff, correct?

There still seems to be some confusion circling about this subject. Some sources are reporting that OHWG was going to obtain ABUs for every "member" in the Wing; others say just cadets; others say it's first-come, first-serve. A lot of scuttlebutt in the air.

- OHWG/SM

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on May 20, 2016, 01:36:38 PM

Quote from: Paul Creed III on May 20, 2016, 12:11:38 PM

Quote from: Garibaldi on May 20, 2016, 12:06:40 PM

Quote from: radioguy on May 20, 2016, 03:48:12 AM

Quote from: SMWOG on May 20, 2016, 03:20:21 AM
I just heard that ABUs are not authorized for wear at the NYWG encampment in July. I cant find any info on the encampment website  or wing website to support this. Is this allowed?

I believe that the same applies to the NCWG encampment as well.

GAWG encampment starts 4 days after authorization, so the encampment CC said no way. No one can get insignia that fast.

Same for OHWG's Encampment.

Maj Creed,

BDUs for Basics, and ABUs for staff, correct?

There still seems to be some confusion circling about this subject. Some sources are reporting that OHWG was going to obtain ABUs for every "member" in the Wing; others say just cadets; others say it's first-come, first-serve. A lot of scuttlebutt in the air.

- OHWG/SM

As an Ohio Wing Encampment staff member, I have received no word on ABUs for staff at Encampment (then again, I'll be in a flight suit most of the time).

At this time, the quantity of ABUs being sent to the Wings is TBD. Wing LG will be handling distribution of ABUs and there will be a process to help get cadets BDUs from existing stockpiles around the Wing - your squadron commander will have something from the group commander in a few days.

Quote from: Paul Creed III on May 20, 2016, 01:50:50 PM

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on May 20, 2016, 01:36:38 PM

Quote from: Paul Creed III on May 20, 2016, 12:11:38 PM

Quote from: Garibaldi on May 20, 2016, 12:06:40 PM

Quote from: radioguy on May 20, 2016, 03:48:12 AM

Quote from: SMWOG on May 20, 2016, 03:20:21 AM
I just heard that ABUs are not authorized for wear at the NYWG encampment in July. I cant find any info on the encampment website  or wing website to support this. Is this allowed?

I believe that the same applies to the NCWG encampment as well.

GAWG encampment starts 4 days after authorization, so the encampment CC said no way. No one can get insignia that fast.

Same for OHWG's Encampment.

Maj Creed,

BDUs for Basics, and ABUs for staff, correct?

There still seems to be some confusion circling about this subject. Some sources are reporting that OHWG was going to obtain ABUs for every "member" in the Wing; others say just cadets; others say it's first-come, first-serve. A lot of scuttlebutt in the air.

- OHWG/SM

As an Ohio Wing Encampment staff member, I have received no word on ABUs for staff at Encampment (then again, I'll be in a flight suit most of the time).

At this time, the quantity of ABUs being sent to the Wings is TBD. Wing LG will be handling distribution of ABUs and there will be a process to help get cadets BDUs from existing stockpiles around the Wing - your squadron commander will have something from the group commander in a few days.

Like I said, sounds like the usual scuttlebutt and bad gouge. Somebody knows, and they told someone else, who told five people, and now you have 20 different answers.

I know there was a lot of talk about at the Wing Conference about ABUs, and I'm sure it was brought up in just about every classroom solely because of the fact that I heard several individuals come out of their classes and talking in the hallway about "No, they said this"..."Really? Because they just told us this..."

I already sent out the email to my cadets to tell them that while ABUs are phasing in, we don't have a lot of information to share at the unit level at this point, and to stop asking questions. We are working on collecting everyone's uniform sizes just to have in our own files in the event that we can assist down the road with uniform items, but nobody is being told they're going to be given anything nor that they must wear this/that after the effective date for ABU wear.

But it's amazing how you can gather 200+ people into one building and apparently everyone heard something different. I don't envy the amount of nagging you must be getting as the new Group/CC (especially considering it's my group...muwahahaha)

Quote from: MHC5096 on May 20, 2016, 11:51:05 AM
The odds of a BRAND NEW cadet member joining in June 2016 and attending the NYW encampment in July 2016...slim to none.

Have two from our squadron.

Quote from: NIN on May 20, 2016, 12:51:45 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on May 20, 2016, 12:21:17 PM
No one can get insignia that fast?
Members have it now.

Quote1.2.3.4. Vanguard is the authorized vendor for CAP insignia. Items sold through the "Civil
Air Patrol" section of the Vanguard webpage are those approved for wear on the CAP uniform. Members
who buy uniform items from other vendors may not meet CAP regulations, and commanders may direct
the removal of these items from the uniform if they do not meet standards for design, size, material, etc.

Since Vanguard hasn't sold the insignia yet, nobody is 100% sure what the specific shade of grey that will stand in for "silver" is yet, nor what the specific definition of "dark navy blue" will be.

Members obtaining insignia (tapes that say "CIVIL AIR PATROL" and grade insignia, I would suspect) that don't match in color and specification to those items (to eventually be) obtained from Vanguard are asking for trouble.  Never mind getting CAP-specific insignia such as qualification badges, commander's badges, etc, made and in the right shade from a vendor who isn't authorized. (ie. not only might the color be off, but will the embroidery / design look correct?)

So I ask: Why the hurry, folks?  Why go thru the time and expense to have "custom" insignia made that MAY NOT MEET THE SPECS? 

Vanguard will have the insignia available in the next 25 days or so.  Thats three weeks. 

Does anybody really think that Vanguard is still churning out Ultramarine Blue insignia?  "Sorry, we can't even make the new insignia until after midnight on the 15th of June!"  No, they're probably making commander's badges and observer wings and GT badges and grade insignia right now so they have a stock of new insignia ready to ship out when people start ordering it on the 15th.

But again: whats the rush?  There is going to be no prize for being the first guy (or gal.. no need to be sexist) to wear ABUs in your region, wing, group or squadron.

Its not like ABUs are authorized for wear on the 15th of June and BDUs turn into a pumpkin on 1 July or something.

No.  The phase in period is FIVE YEARS. FIVE!

I wear a military aviation badge on my BDUs. I've had them made white-on-ultramarine by a 3rd party vendor for a number of years now. They even cranked me out some white-on-dark-navy insignia last time I ordered, just cuz, you know, "ABUs are coming" (that was 2-ish years ago).  However, hahaha, joke's on me: ABU insignia = "silver-on-dark-navy."  Whoops. Oh well, thats $6 down the drain. :)

But I'm waiting to find out *exactly* what color the ABU insignia will be, FROM VANGUARD, before I go back to my third party vendor and say "Hey, can you make me these aircrew wings silver-on-dark-navy with this shade of grey thread?"  So that my insignia matches correctly the first time and I don't put my commander in the awkward position to have to say "Uh, hey there Lt Col Ninness, that insignia is wrong.."  (I'm the Wing DP, too, so hahaha, joke's on me again: I'm the OPR for uniform issues.  Doesn't do well to have the point-person for uniforms be wearing his stuff all jacked up, right?)

Like I used to have painted just to one side of the door on my helicopter: "If there isn't time to do it right, when is there time to do it again?"

Everybody needs to relax just a little bit.

I agree on all points, except that CAP doesn't issue color specs, and Vanguard can't even match insignia between pieces it produces exclusively in-house,
not to mention the stuff changes color after one washing, sometimes unpredictably.

"Dark Navy and silver" = anything reasonably close - there are 100 vendors who can produce them, and the grade insignia
aren't unique to CAP for senior members, so anyone who can hold their water on their optional badges, but is an a superhero
hurry to wear ABUs can put them together with no delay.

Until CAP starts issuing color charts with thread codes and Pantone numbers, etc., this will never change.

As to the hurry, no idea, but one only needs to see the interest here, TwitBook, and in the wet world to know that there will
be members with meetings on the 15th that show up in ABUs all over the country.

All of my members are outfitted, a number on the USAF's dime - I told them to ignore the idea until at least the end of the CY
so that the issues with the wear instructions, not to mention supply chain can be worked out.

Quote from: Trenzalorian on May 20, 2016, 01:58:09 PM

Quote from: MHC5096 on May 20, 2016, 11:51:05 AM
The odds of a BRAND NEW cadet member joining in June 2016 and attending the NYW encampment in July 2016...slim to none.

Have two from our squadron.

+1  I had a cadet who pushed Curry in 3 weeks to make encampment - remember, at the bare minimum
of membership requirements they've been attending meetings for 3+ weeks before the app is submitted,
that's probably when their motivation is at the highest point, and if the unit is doing beta PT, they don't even have to
make a number, just an attempt.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on May 20, 2016, 01:57:21 PM

Quote from: Paul Creed III on May 20, 2016, 01:50:50 PM

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on May 20, 2016, 01:36:38 PM

Quote from: Paul Creed III on May 20, 2016, 12:11:38 PM

Quote from: Garibaldi on May 20, 2016, 12:06:40 PM

Quote from: radioguy on May 20, 2016, 03:48:12 AM

Quote from: SMWOG on May 20, 2016, 03:20:21 AM
I just heard that ABUs are not authorized for wear at the NYWG encampment in July. I cant find any info on the encampment website  or wing website to support this. Is this allowed?

I believe that the same applies to the NCWG encampment as well.

GAWG encampment starts 4 days after authorization, so the encampment CC said no way. No one can get insignia that fast.

Same for OHWG's Encampment.

Maj Creed,

BDUs for Basics, and ABUs for staff, correct?

There still seems to be some confusion circling about this subject. Some sources are reporting that OHWG was going to obtain ABUs for every "member" in the Wing; others say just cadets; others say it's first-come, first-serve. A lot of scuttlebutt in the air.

- OHWG/SM

As an Ohio Wing Encampment staff member, I have received no word on ABUs for staff at Encampment (then again, I'll be in a flight suit most of the time).

At this time, the quantity of ABUs being sent to the Wings is TBD. Wing LG will be handling distribution of ABUs and there will be a process to help get cadets BDUs from existing stockpiles around the Wing - your squadron commander will have something from the group commander in a few days.

Like I said, sounds like the usual scuttlebutt and bad gouge. Somebody knows, and they told someone else, who told five people, and now you have 20 different answers.

I know there was a lot of talk about at the Wing Conference about ABUs, and I'm sure it was brought up in just about every classroom solely because of the fact that I heard several individuals come out of their classes and talking in the hallway about "No, they said this"..."Really? Because they just told us this..."

I already sent out the email to my cadets to tell them that while ABUs are phasing in, we don't have a lot of information to share at the unit level at this point, and to stop asking questions. We are working on collecting everyone's uniform sizes just to have in our own files in the event that we can assist down the road with uniform items, but nobody is being told they're going to be given anything nor that they must wear this/that after the effective date for ABU wear.

But it's amazing how you can gather 200+ people into one building and apparently everyone heard something different. I don't envy the amount of nagging you must be getting as the new Group/CC (especially considering it's my group...muwahahaha)

Good job collecting cadet sizes!

I will be facilitating the collection and distribution of BDUs within the group for those cadets that need them for Encampment - that will be coming out in a few days.

Quote from: SMWOG on May 20, 2016, 03:20:21 AM
I just heard that ABUs are not authorized for wear at the NYWG encampment in July. ... Is this allowed?

I would have to say yes. CAPR 3901 Table 1-1:

Quote...Choice of which combination is appropriate depends on the commander's direction and the type of event.

AKA "uniform of the day."

Except...unless CAP issues the uniform, they can't requires its wear for cadets.

So...a mom who just spent $150 on ABUs would be well within here rights to complain
unless CAP issues a full set of BDUs.  BTDT (in similar situations).

If 39-1 is going to be the fallback for complaints, you have to expect them to read the rest of it.

For the record I don't disagree with the idea at all, for uniformity, reducing expenses (Curry & CEAP), and
just general common sense, but by August this is going to be a hot topic. NHQ would have done everyone
a favor by waiting until after summer activity season to approve the wear.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 20, 2016, 02:00:35 PM

Quote from: Trenzalorian on May 20, 2016, 01:58:09 PM

Quote from: MHC5096 on May 20, 2016, 11:51:05 AM
The odds of a BRAND NEW cadet member joining in June 2016 and attending the NYW encampment in July 2016...slim to none.

Have two from our squadron.

+1  I had a cadet who pushed Curry in 3 weeks to make encampment - remember, at the bare minimum
of membership requirements they've been attending meetings for 3+ weeks before the app is submitted,
that's probably when their motivation is at the highest point, and if the unit is doing beta PT, they don't even have to
make a number, just an attempt.

Not only that, but in the past, we routinely prepped high speed recruits for Spring Encampment within a few weeks.


ALL they need from the unit is/was a PT and a CD. Everything else was online. Motivated cadet joining within a month of an Encampment? With the proper motivation, we'll get them there.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 20, 2016, 02:22:53 PM
Except...unless CAP issues the uniform, they can't requires its wear for cadets.

So...a mom who just spent $150 on ABUs would be well within here rights to complain
unless CAP issues a full set of BDUs.  BTDT (in similar situations).

If 39-1 is going to be the fallback for complaints, you have to expect them to read the rest of it.

Right, but the minimum uniform is Class B, not ABUs/BDUs, so the reply would be, "Don't have BDUs? Ok then, wear the Class B you were required to get."

I would not be encouraging any new cadet or Senior Member to purchase ABUs right now.  At least in my Wing, BDUs are very easy to come by within many squadrons and a good number of surplus stores throughout the state.  Despite having 2 USAF bases, there isn't many ABUs in surplus stores.  Many cadets who join today or are current members will not even be in CAP when the BDU is phased out in 5 years.  Also, we have many squadrons who just created and/or ordered new squadron t-shirts in the last year and they are not authorized with the ABU.  A majority of our squadrons also have squadron hats which again are not authorized with the ABU. 

Because of all of this I have been encouraging parents and cadets to just get the BDU.  They are much cheaper than the ABU, more comfortable and easier to find.  Of course there will be new members who will jump on the ABU bandwagon but that is their choice and they should be aware that there are events they may not be able to participate in just yet if they don't have BDUs.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 20, 2016, 02:22:53 PM
Except...unless CAP issues the uniform, they can't requires its wear for cadets.

So...a mom who just spent $150 on ABUs would be well within here rights to complain
unless CAP issues a full set of BDUs.  BTDT (in similar situations).

If 39-1 is going to be the fallback for complaints, you have to expect them to read the rest of it.

You are correct but there is no requirement for a cadet to attend encampment (it is required for promotion but not to maintain membership) or any other CAP event.  If they want to attend they will purchase the uniform mandated by the activity commander.  Only the blue uniform was ever issued by CAP to cadets (as far I can tell) but encampments and ES events require BDUs.  It is up to the cadet and their family to decide if they want to purchase the uniform to attend events that require something other than Blues.

Again, it plays back to consistency.

What happens is cadets in one unit will talk to cadets in another unit and suddenly "the rules changed." No, they didn't. You're referring to SOPs, not regulations.

Or you get someone who hasn't read the regs and starts spewing misinformation. There's absolutely nothing wrong with saying "I don't know, but I will find out." But you start getting into those cases where someone believes something to be true and never checks the documentation to verify it.

That said, I'm an advocate for pushing the working uniform over the dress uniform if we're going to mandate only one. We do far more work in the working uniform than in dress attire. But, on the flip side, the Blues is the Air Force uniform (yeah, yeah, "Air Force-style," whatever) and it definitely looks sharp for a military formal occasion. So, it becomes a predicament. But function before fashion. Yes, that can be a subjective statement. Personally, I would like to see cadets own both (now you're playing into the pockets of the parents). This is not a cheap organization by any means; I think we all know that.

Common sense plays a huge role here. No person in their right mind would tell cadets to go out into the field in Blues because they don't have the ABU/BDU. Wear the civilian equivalent in that case (jeans/work pants, boots, yadda yadda). Still, you can't regulate common sense. The regs are there to say "Here's the minimum protocol you must abide by (or the extent to which you can force something); the rest is standard operating procedure at the Wing and subsequent levels."

Our training schedules all have a caveat on them: "Cadets who do not have the UOD shall wear the civilian equivalent. FDU is not authorized." Plan and simple.

"But I don't have a blouse/shirt."
"Don't wear the uniform, please."
"I don't have my name tapes sewn own."
"Don't wear the uniform, please."
"What do I wear instead?"
"Civilian equivalent."
"But I'll be out of place."
"You'll be more out of place wearing a military uniform that is out of regs. Do not wear articles that are out of regulation to my meeting."

Problem solved.

On a final note, we've had that debate about the whole "You need to have a uniform to promote to C/Amn and achieve the Curry." It's right there in the regulations. But you need your Curry to receive your Blues voucher. It's FUBAR'd. Now, I come out of the OHWG Conference to hear that this question was brought up and people were told "Don't worry about that; just promote them when they're ready."

And suddenly the regs get tossed aside. And boom goes the consistency.

Quote from: kwe1009 on May 20, 2016, 02:41:10 PM
I would not be encouraging any new cadet or Senior Member to purchase ABUs right now.  At least in my Wing, BDUs are very easy to come by within many squadrons and a good number of surplus stores throughout the state.  Despite having 2 USAF bases, there isn't many ABUs in surplus stores.  Many cadets who join today or are current members will not even be in CAP when the BDU is phased out in 5 years.  Also, we have many squadrons who just created and/or ordered new squadron t-shirts in the last year and they are not authorized with the ABU.  A majority of our squadrons also have squadron hats which again are not authorized with the ABU. 

Because of all of this I have been encouraging parents and cadets to just get the BDU.  They are much cheaper than the ABU, more comfortable and easier to find.  Of course there will be new members who will jump on the ABU bandwagon but

Quote from: Eclipse on May 20, 2016, 02:22:53 PM
Except...unless CAP issues the uniform, they can't requires its wear for cadets.

So...a mom who just spent $150 on ABUs would be well within here rights to complain
unless CAP issues a full set of BDUs.  BTDT (in similar situations).

If 39-1 is going to be the fallback for complaints, you have to expect them to read the rest of it.

You are correct but there is no requirement for a cadet to attend encampment (it is required for promotion but not to maintain membership) or any other CAP event.  If they want to attend they will purchase the uniform mandated by the activity commander.  Only the blue uniform was ever issued by CAP to cadets (as far I can tell) but encampments and ES events require BDUs.  It is up to the cadet and their family to decide if they want to purchase the uniform to attend events that require something other than Blues.

Our next cadet training class is in September. We're planning to go ABU-recommended with that class. It's far enough out for everything to be resolved with the tapes and all. If we have to resort back to pushing BDUs, we can do that.

I am on the other side of the coin, not recommending BDU purchases. If the unit can help supply them, great. But I think you're going to have to answer that question by parents (and seniors) of "So, you're saying, I spend $50-$100 now so I have to spend another $100 later?" You can explain to them the whole 5-years thing, but they're not going to take that in on top of all of the other costs you're throwing at them with a new membership.

I don't like the idea of telling them to buy something cheaper now and replace it with something more expensive later. Buy what you need to buy so you don't have to shill out the extra bucks down the road. I find that's a real burden on people.

If the average cadet doesn't need new BDUs because of growth issues in 1-2 years, they need to see a Dr.

It seems that a number of folks are assuming cadets will stay the same size for their cadet career. Most of our cadets will out grow their bdus before they wear them out. Get bdus now and when the cadet outgrows them in 12-18 months, replace with abus. Buy this now and replace later cost argument nullified - they're going to have replace bdus anyway.

Fair and valid point(s).

I think that's where the unit donation/return policy comes in to be very important. We try to issue and cycle uniforms back through; or, encourage the parents to "donate" them to the unit so we can later lend them to the cadets. We really try to push that so the parents don't keep purchasing new items. Covers are the hardest to manage, in my opinion. This all goes back to "if the unit can provide it, the unit can mandate it."

Welcome to a youth organization. Don't expect things to be free; don't expect your child to stay little forever. Then again, we have some humongous 14-year-olds. I say that as someone who's 5'4 :P

Quote from: Eclipse on May 20, 2016, 03:56:54 PM
If the average cadet doesn't need new BDUs because of growth issues in 1-2 years, they need to see a Dr.

There is a set of  twins at my olde unit, who joined right before I left in late 2014. I see them occasionally, and I swear in the nearly 2 years since I left, they have not grown an inch. They are still in the "kiddie camo" BDUs because they are so small. I believe they are nearing 14 now, as they joined right at 12.

pretty funny

yes there are always exceptions that no one can do anything about.  all you can do is take them as they come, and do you're best to solve the situation as best as possible.

Has anyone found a vendor yet to embroider AF occupational badges in light silver on dark blue? I did not see it as an option from the vendors I usually used. 

Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

Quote from: winterg on June 08, 2016, 03:04:10 PM
Has anyone found a vendor yet to embroider AF occupational badges in light silver on dark blue? I did not see it as an option from the vendors I usually used. 

It really depends on the definition of "light silver" (and in some ways, we're not going to know what color "light silver" actually winds up being until we have it in hand)

Williams & Williams (http://"https://www.nametags4u.com/product/?pid=1671") and The Battlezone (http://"http://www.thebattlezone.com/airforce/enlistedrankinsigniacurrent.html") can probably square you away.

If you're looking for other services badges, I've had tremendous service from Spur (http://1800nametape.com/ (http://1800nametape.com/)) but you really need to call them to get a "specialty" item like that.

Yeah, I was planing to see what Vanguard put out as far as light silver.  I've had great service from Spur for a long time as well. Was just wondering if anyone had gotten the ball rolling with anyone yet. 

Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

Quote from: winterg on June 08, 2016, 03:38:14 PM
Yeah, I was planing to see what Vanguard put out as far as light silver.  I've had great service from Spur for a long time as well. Was just wondering if anyone had gotten the ball rolling with anyone yet. 

Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

Vanguard is probably not going to offer any USAF badges in CAP colors besides the VERY few they offer today.

I think the wait is to see the actual thread color, not that we are expecting Vanguard to actually produce them.

Quote from: kwe1009 on June 08, 2016, 03:42:35 PM

Quote from: winterg on June 08, 2016, 03:38:14 PM
Yeah, I was planing to see what Vanguard put out as far as light silver.  I've had great service from Spur for a long time as well. Was just wondering if anyone had gotten the ball rolling with anyone yet. 

Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

Vanguard is probably not going to offer any USAF badges in CAP colors besides the VERY few they offer today.

I don't expect Vanguard to make them. Just want to see the shade of the light silver on CAP stuff for an example to bring to the outside company to make AF badges for me.  And maybe others. If they're nice to me. 

Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

This would have been a great time for CAP to specify a standard. Blue shade XYZ, and Silver Thread ZYX

Quote from: winterg on June 08, 2016, 03:38:14 PM
Yeah, I was planing to see what Vanguard put out as far as light silver.  I've had great service from Spur for a long time as well. Was just wondering if anyone had gotten the ball rolling with anyone yet. 

I was actually going to call Rob at Spur this week and see if he had any insight into the "light silver" (maybe, just maybe, he's got a killer intel network) and go from there.

Since my white-on-Navy wings aren't gonna cut it.

Quote from: NIN on June 08, 2016, 04:48:24 PM

Quote from: winterg on June 08, 2016, 03:38:14 PM
Yeah, I was planing to see what Vanguard put out as far as light silver.  I've had great service from Spur for a long time as well. Was just wondering if anyone had gotten the ball rolling with anyone yet. 

I was actually going to call Rob at Spur this week and see if he had any insight into the "light silver" (maybe, just maybe, he's got a killer intel network) and go from there.

Since my white-on-Navy wings aren't gonna cut it.

Please let me know what you hear.

Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 08, 2016, 04:10:52 PM
This would have been a great time for CAP to specify a standard. Blue shade XYZ, and Silver Thread ZYX

You're new here, aren't you?

Quote from: NIN on June 08, 2016, 04:48:24 PM

Quote from: winterg on June 08, 2016, 03:38:14 PM
Yeah, I was planing to see what Vanguard put out as far as light silver.  I've had great service from Spur for a long time as well. Was just wondering if anyone had gotten the ball rolling with anyone yet. 

I was actually going to call Rob at Spur this week and see if he had any insight into the "light silver" (maybe, just maybe, he's got a killer intel network) and go from there.

Since my white-on-Navy wings aren't gonna cut it.

I just ordered a size down BBDU, since my current set is starting to feel like a parachute, but then held off on ordering the tapes/badges/grade etc, until the new standard hits. Hoping VG drops the whole thing on the 15th, not just the tapes.

Quote from: NIN on June 08, 2016, 04:50:42 PM

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 08, 2016, 04:10:52 PM
This would have been a great time for CAP to specify a standard. Blue shade XYZ, and Silver Thread ZYX

You're new here, aren't you?

I still haven't lost hope.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 20, 2016, 03:56:54 PM
If the average cadet doesn't need new BDUs because of growth issues in 1-2 years, they need to see a Dr.

Why would they need to see a doctor? Everyone grows at different rates, and some are people just short. My daughter is 4' 11", has been since 14, she is now 17, she is just genetically predisposition to be short. Don't need a doctor to tell me that

Quote from: grunt82abn on June 08, 2016, 04:54:16 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on May 20, 2016, 03:56:54 PM
If the average cadet doesn't need new BDUs because of growth issues in 1-2 years, they need to see a Dr.

Why would they need to see a doctor? Everyone grows at different rates, and some are people just short. My daughter is 4' 11", has been since 14, she is now 17, she is just genetically predisposition to be short. Don't need a doctor to tell me that

How tall was she at 12? Girls tend to stop growing around 14, boys a bit later.

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 08, 2016, 04:56:22 PM

Quote from: grunt82abn on June 08, 2016, 04:54:16 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on May 20, 2016, 03:56:54 PM
If the average cadet doesn't need new BDUs because of growth issues in 1-2 years, they need to see a Dr.

Why would they need to see a doctor? Everyone grows at different rates, and some are people just short. My daughter is 4' 11", has been since 14, she is now 17, she is just genetically predisposition to be short. Don't need a doctor to tell me that

How tall was she at 12? Girls tend to stop growing around 14, boys a bit later.

4' 10", My oldest is the tallest at 5'2", my wife 5'1", My youngest at 5'0". Took after the wife and her family of short rounds

Quote from: grunt82abn on June 08, 2016, 04:58:43 PM
Took after the wife and her family of short rounds

Awwww. I'm tellin'

Quote from: NIN on June 08, 2016, 05:01:42 PM

Quote from: grunt82abn on June 08, 2016, 04:58:43 PM
Took after the wife and her family of short rounds

Awwww. I'm tellin'

It is what it is. My wife is just about in the middle (but closer to mom) of her parents average.

Quote from: NIN on June 08, 2016, 05:01:42 PM

Quote from: grunt82abn on June 08, 2016, 04:58:43 PM
Took after the wife and her family of short rounds

Awwww. I'm tellin'

Hahahaha!!!

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 08, 2016, 05:03:20 PM

Quote from: NIN on June 08, 2016, 05:01:42 PM

Quote from: grunt82abn on June 08, 2016, 04:58:43 PM
Took after the wife and her family of short rounds

Awwww. I'm tellin'

It is what it is. My wife is just about in the middle (but closer to mom) of her parents average.

Love hanging around with my wife's family, at 5'10", I feel like a giant!!!

Quote from: grunt82abn on June 08, 2016, 05:05:54 PM

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 08, 2016, 05:03:20 PM

Quote from: NIN on June 08, 2016, 05:01:42 PM

Quote from: grunt82abn on June 08, 2016, 04:58:43 PM
Took after the wife and her family of short rounds

Awwww. I'm tellin'

It is what it is. My wife is just about in the middle (but closer to mom) of her parents average.

Love hanging around with my wife's family, at 5'10", I feel like a giant!!!

Probably the only time (same height here) I feel that way as well, despite being smack in the middle of the average.

Quote from: grunt82abn on June 08, 2016, 04:54:16 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on May 20, 2016, 03:56:54 PM
If the average cadet doesn't need new BDUs because of growth issues in 1-2 years, they need to see a Dr.

Why would they need to see a doctor? Everyone grows at different rates, and some are people just short. My daughter is 4' 11", has been since 14, she is now 17, she is just genetically predisposition to be short. Don't need a doctor to tell me that

Because the average cadet, on the average, is going to increase in clothing size significantly, on the average, in a 1-2 year time span.

They don't always grow up, especially these days, or uniformly, or on a schedule, and females grow in other places besides height.

This is why smart parents don't buy $200 boots for 12 year olds.

The average cadet, BTW, is male, and males continue to grow through age 18, some even some into their early 20's.
I have seen cadets, not to mention my own kids, outgrow shoes and pants 3 times a school season.

Quote from: grunt82abn on June 08, 2016, 05:05:54 PM

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 08, 2016, 05:03:20 PM

Quote from: NIN on June 08, 2016, 05:01:42 PM

Quote from: grunt82abn on June 08, 2016, 04:58:43 PM
Took after the wife and her family of short rounds

Awwww. I'm tellin'

It is what it is. My wife is just about in the middle (but closer to mom) of her parents average.

Love hanging around with my wife's family, at 5'10", I feel like a giant!!!

I'm the third shortest male in two generations of my family, at 5'10".

All this talk about ABUs when the real question is, when are we getting the multicams? >:D

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 09, 2016, 12:46:23 AM
All this talk about ABUs when the real question is, when are we getting the multicams? >:D

Well...if it stays a deployment only uniform...never.

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 09, 2016, 04:54:59 AM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 09, 2016, 12:46:23 AM
All this talk about ABUs when the real question is, when are we getting the multicams? >:D

Well...if it stays a deployment only uniform...never.

The Army is issuing Scorpion/OCP now to all soldiers as far as I'm aware. It's no longer deployment only. They've been available for a year now.

Quote from: HGjunkie on June 09, 2016, 05:26:57 AM

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 09, 2016, 04:54:59 AM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 09, 2016, 12:46:23 AM
All this talk about ABUs when the real question is, when are we getting the multicams? >:D

Well...if it stays a deployment only uniform...never.

The Army is issuing Scorpion/OCP now to all soldiers as far as I'm aware. It's no longer deployment only. They've been available for a year now.

I see more and more Air Force Airmen wearing them on base. It's still a deployment uniform for them, but I think it's only a matter of time before it becomes an everyday uniform, especially because Congress wants all the Services to go back to a single field uniform. If/When that happens, we'll start to hear the question of when are we (CAP) getting that uniform.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 09, 2016, 11:30:16 AM

Quote from: HGjunkie on June 09, 2016, 05:26:57 AM

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 09, 2016, 04:54:59 AM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 09, 2016, 12:46:23 AM
All this talk about ABUs when the real question is, when are we getting the multicams? >:D

Well...if it stays a deployment only uniform...never.

The Army is issuing Scorpion/OCP now to all soldiers as far as I'm aware. It's no longer deployment only. They've been available for a year now.

I see more and more Air Force Airmen wearing them on base. It's still a deployment uniform for them, but I think it's only a matter of time before it becomes an everyday uniform, especially because Congress wants all the Services to go back to a single field uniform. If/When that happens, we'll start to hear the question of when are we (CAP) getting that uniform.

"When do we get velcro?!"

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on June 09, 2016, 01:50:35 PM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 09, 2016, 11:30:16 AM

Quote from: HGjunkie on June 09, 2016, 05:26:57 AM

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 09, 2016, 04:54:59 AM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 09, 2016, 12:46:23 AM
All this talk about ABUs when the real question is, when are we getting the multicams? >:D

Well...if it stays a deployment only uniform...never.

The Army is issuing Scorpion/OCP now to all soldiers as far as I'm aware. It's no longer deployment only. They've been available for a year now.

I see more and more Air Force Airmen wearing them on base. It's still a deployment uniform for them, but I think it's only a matter of time before it becomes an everyday uniform, especially because Congress wants all the Services to go back to a single field uniform. If/When that happens, we'll start to hear the question of when are we (CAP) getting that uniform.

"When do we get velcro?!"

Ugh. I deal with that on the ACU. Every single time I put it on, I miss my BDUs even more.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 09, 2016, 11:30:16 AM

Quote from: HGjunkie on June 09, 2016, 05:26:57 AM

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 09, 2016, 04:54:59 AM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 09, 2016, 12:46:23 AM
All this talk about ABUs when the real question is, when are we getting the multicams? >:D

Well...if it stays a deployment only uniform...never.

The Army is issuing Scorpion/OCP now to all soldiers as far as I'm aware. It's no longer deployment only. They've been available for a year now.

I see more and more Air Force Airmen wearing them on base. It's still a deployment uniform for them, but I think it's only a matter of time before it becomes an everyday uniform, especially because Congress wants all the Services to go back to a single field uniform. If/When that happens, we'll start to hear the question of when are we (CAP) getting that uniform.

I believe security forces troops in global strike command are wearing them. I still think it will be some years until a full change is even seriously considered, but there is a baby-step trend in place.

Quote from: HGjunkie on June 09, 2016, 05:26:57 AM

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 09, 2016, 04:54:59 AM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 09, 2016, 12:46:23 AM
All this talk about ABUs when the real question is, when are we getting the multicams? >:D

Well...if it stays a deployment only uniform...never.

The Army is issuing Scorpion/OCP now to all soldiers as far as I'm aware. It's no longer deployment only. They've been available for a year now.

But not the AF. At least yet.

Quote from: Jester on June 09, 2016, 02:10:39 PM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 09, 2016, 11:30:16 AM

Quote from: HGjunkie on June 09, 2016, 05:26:57 AM

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 09, 2016, 04:54:59 AM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 09, 2016, 12:46:23 AM
All this talk about ABUs when the real question is, when are we getting the multicams? >:D

Well...if it stays a deployment only uniform...never.

The Army is issuing Scorpion/OCP now to all soldiers as far as I'm aware. It's no longer deployment only. They've been available for a year now.

I see more and more Air Force Airmen wearing them on base. It's still a deployment uniform for them, but I think it's only a matter of time before it becomes an everyday uniform, especially because Congress wants all the Services to go back to a single field uniform. If/When that happens, we'll start to hear the question of when are we (CAP) getting that uniform.

I believe security forces troops in global strike command are wearing them. I still think it will be some years until a full change is even seriously considered, but there is a baby-step trend in place.

And if the Air Force gets them, it will years before we do.

Which is fine, because we have until 2021 to be ABU'd across the board anyway. So...2030ish for the rollout?

A few years, we could not wear the ABUs.

We finally got them.

Now that we have them, even before we are wearing them, some members have decided that their new toys (ABU) are not that interesting anymore.

They are starting to discuss a new toy to clamor for...

>:D

There is an event scheduled to take place in early November of this year which could
very well change the landscape of all things government and military including compliance
with the GSA directive regarding a consolidated field uniform for all services.

Quote from: Eclipse on June 09, 2016, 04:29:21 PM
There is an event scheduled to take place in early November of this year which could
very well change the landscape of all things government and military including compliance
with the GSA directive regarding a consolidated field uniform for all services.

True. But how did you know I promised my lovely bride a throne for our anniversary?

Oh, wait, you mean THAT event....

Quote from: THRAWN on June 09, 2016, 01:55:17 PM

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on June 09, 2016, 01:50:35 PM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 09, 2016, 11:30:16 AM

Quote from: HGjunkie on June 09, 2016, 05:26:57 AM

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on June 09, 2016, 04:54:59 AM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 09, 2016, 12:46:23 AM
All this talk about ABUs when the real question is, when are we getting the multicams? >:D

Well...if it stays a deployment only uniform...never.

The Army is issuing Scorpion/OCP now to all soldiers as far as I'm aware. It's no longer deployment only. They've been available for a year now.

I see more and more Air Force Airmen wearing them on base. It's still a deployment uniform for them, but I think it's only a matter of time before it becomes an everyday uniform, especially because Congress wants all the Services to go back to a single field uniform. If/When that happens, we'll start to hear the question of when are we (CAP) getting that uniform.

"When do we get velcro?!"

Ugh. I deal with that on the ACU. Every single time I put it on, I miss my BDUs even more.

How many poor souls have lost a patch in a dress-right-dress?

That moment you go "Gentl---ugh, crap."

Quote from: THRAWN on June 09, 2016, 04:55:39 PM


True. But how did you know I promised my lovely bride a throne for our anniversary?

Snip

Me too, I'm installing it next week. It's white porcelain with a silver handle...

Quote from: Al Sayre on June 09, 2016, 08:43:43 PM

Quote from: THRAWN on June 09, 2016, 04:55:39 PM


True. But how did you know I promised my lovely bride a throne for our anniversary?

Snip

Me too, I'm installing it next week. It's white porcelain with a silver handle...

This might be the Crappiest Throne yet? ;D ;D ;D

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 09, 2016, 11:30:16 AM
I see more and more Air Force Airmen wearing them on base. It's still a deployment uniform for them, but I think it's only a matter of time before it becomes an everyday uniform, especially because Congress wants all the Services to go back to a single field uniform. If/When that happens, we'll start to hear the question of when are we (CAP) getting that uniform.

It's already here (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=21114.0;topicseen).

Quote from: lordmonar on May 05, 2016, 12:23:38 AM
And the date is 15 Jun 2016

OFFICE OF THE NATIONAL COMMANDER
CIVIL AIR PATROL
UNITED STATES AIR FORCE AUXILIARY
MAXWELL AIR FORCE BASE, ALABAMA 36112-5937

4 May 2016

MEMORANDUM FOR ALL CAP MEMBERS FROM: CAP/CC
SUBJECT:  CAP Transition to the Airman Battle Uniform (ABU)

1. I am pleased to announce that the Air Force has approved Civil Air Patrol's request to
transition to the Airman Battle Uniform. As the official auxiliary of the Air Force CAP has a long
history of wearing a USAF style uniform and our transition to the ABU once again brings us in line
with our parent service.

2. As a result of negotiations with the Army & Air Force Exchange Services (AAFES), CAP has also
been approved to receive a significant number of excess ABUs.  This will allow many CAP members to
receive the basic ABU shirt and pants at no cost. We are currently working with AAFES to take
possession of the excess uniforms and each Wing is establishing a distribution plan. We expect
these uniforms to be available to members in the field this summer.

3. The phase in period for wear of the ABU will begin on 15 June 2016. Members will wear the ABU
with the dark blue tapes and insignia as outlined in the attached wear instructions. Vanguard will
begin accepting orders for the new devices on 15 June 2016. The Battle Dress Uniform (BDU) may
continue to be worn until the mandatory phase out date of 15 June 2021. CAP will also begin to
transition to dark blue tapes on the Corporate field uniform and BDUs with a mandatory wear date of
15 June 2021.  Members are not required to change the tapes on existing uniforms until the
mandatory wear date; however, all devices on the uniform must match. The attached wear instructions
will constitute regulatory guidance on the wear of the ABU until a revision to CAP Manual 39-1 is
released.

3. If you have any comments or concerns, contact Ms Susan Parker, CAP/DP at (334) 953- 7748,
extension 212 or email sparker@capnhq.gov.




JOSEPH R. VAZQUEZ
Major General, CAP Commander

Atch
ABU Wear instructions

I'm sorry if I missed this elsewhere in the discussion threads...but is there a reason V isn't carrying the new uniforms yet?

Quote from: SAREXinNY on June 20, 2016, 02:38:46 PM
I'm sorry if I missed this elsewhere in the discussion threads...but is there a reason V isn't carrying the new uniforms yet?

Will they ever?

They don't actually sell clothing for the other services, just CAP (why would they when they are an insignia vendor and
the services have more direct channels).

Assuming they start selling ABUs, it'll probably be under the same "special" as the other clothing items listed
as "CAP".

Quote from: SAREXinNY on June 20, 2016, 02:38:46 PM

I'm sorry if I missed this elsewhere in the discussion threads...but is there a reason V isn't carrying the new uniforms yet?

I just kitted myself in ABUs for $60 by running to a surplus store yesterday (minus hat.) I'm dead certain that the cost would have been $120 from vanguard.

Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on June 20, 2016, 03:28:07 PM

Quote from: SAREXinNY on June 20, 2016, 02:38:46 PM

I'm sorry if I missed this elsewhere in the discussion threads...but is there a reason V isn't carrying the new uniforms yet?

I just kitted myself in ABUs for $60 by running to a surplus store yesterday (minus hat.) I'm dead certain that the cost would have been $120 from vanguard.

More than likely

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

It struck me last night that CAP now has, (and will until at least 2021), five (5) different field uniforms.

Quote from: Eclipse on June 29, 2016, 10:47:04 PM
It struck me last night that CAP now has, (and will until at least 2021), five (5) different field uniforms.

What are the other 2 besides the ABU'S, BDU'S and corporate BDU'S?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

BDU and CFU have light blue and dark blue tapes and insignia.

6 actually, since the CWU is also explicitly approved for field wear.

What is the difference between the CFU and CWU?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

CFU=Blue BDU or BBDU

CWU=Blue polo and grey pants

Are you saying that because the BDU and BBDU can be worn with two different color tapes they are four different uniforms?

To me the color of the tape does not make them different uniforms. Those variations are the same as wearing a different Wing patch, or wearing them with the two different ES patches.

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on June 30, 2016, 12:13:39 AM
Are you saying that because the BDU and BBDU can be worn with two different color tapes they are four different uniforms?

To me the color of the tape does not make them different uniforms. Those variations are the same as wearing a different Wing patch, or wearing them with the two different ES patches.

Thats what was trying to figure out. Just because the name tapes are different that does not make them different uniforms.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

We worry to death about the amount of uniforms we wear.

If the Army of the United States had worried about the uniforms they had to wear to the field they would not have won World War II. Count the following uniforms they could have taken to the field:

1. The Summer or Winter Service Uniform, as appropriate for their theater. The khaki or OD wool.
2. The Summer pants with Winter shirt. In the Philippines and tropics such as mountains of Hawaii.
3. The fatigue uniform, initially color blue then olive drab, to be worn at times over their service uniforms, sometimes alone without other uniforms under.
4. In winter, a Makinaw.
5. In winter, the M-43 jacket. Grandfather of the M-65 winter jacket.
6. In winter, two different variations of the winter coat, one made in 1940, the other 1941.
7. In winter over 4, 5, and 6 a winter wool coat.
8. Combat boots there were several types as well.
8a. Short ankle boots with leggins.
8b. Short ankle boots with extensions sewn on, usually referred as "having reversed upper leather," these had two short belts.
8c. Tall boots late in the war.
8d. Tall parachute boots, initially reserved for paratroopers, later extended to glider crews.
9. A coverall, initially for only mechanics and armor crews then infantry was allowed to wear it as well.
10. The Ike Jacket
11. Pinks and Greens, officers only. Wool coat, the Greens. Pants almost looked Pink in color... Not a field uniform, but in 1937 the service coat was supposed to be taken to the field. In 1941 with the two coats mentioned in 6 above, the Service Coat was relegated to garrison only.

If with all these uniform variations the United States Army was able to win World War II, I am sure that CAP will be able to do the job as well. After all, we only have 5 uniforms!

>:D

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on June 29, 2016, 11:43:37 PM
CFU=Blue BDU or BBDU

CWU = Blue polo and grey pants

Correct CFU = Corporate Field Uniform.

CWU = Corporate Working Uniform

(To save people from looking it up...)

CFDU = Corporate Flight Duty Uniform.

When standing together, it will look like colors on parade, and the questions will be raised
(by those all important yet unimportant yet important outside people) as to who can't read the regs,
or bleached their tapes.

6 combos for the next 5 years.

We're not the Army or the military, so I really don't care what they do or did - we are volunteers desperately trying to
hold onto credibility, and we have to do it on our own nickel.  At my meeting last night the majority
were all wearing BDU or CFU in the "former" colors.

We looked like an actual uniformed service. 

What I have to look forward to now is 5 years of uniform creep as people adapt or adopt. 
This is to the detriment of the uniformity, external appearance, and to zero mission benefit.

By next encampment season the cadre and students are going to look like a Joint Task Force, not a single service.

When it is convenient for our point of view... "Look at us!" "Ma Blue etc." "We are military" "Air Force this, that...!"

When it is not convenient, "We are not military."

Those that worry so much about the uniform, have you heard any of our potential clients actually say something like "You do not have credibility because of your uniforms?" 

If not, it is in your head.

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on June 30, 2016, 03:49:37 AM
Those that worry so much about the uniform, have you heard any of our potential clients actually say something like "You do not have credibility because of your uniforms?" 

Nope, and you never will.  They smile politely and thank you for coming.

The sound of the phone not ringing is the notification when you've lost credibility.

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on June 30, 2016, 03:49:37 AM
When it is convenient for our point of view... "Look at us!" "Ma Blue etc." "We are military" "Air Force this, that...!"

When it is not convenient, "We are not military."

Agreed.

Quote from: Eclipse on June 30, 2016, 03:37:39 AM

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on June 29, 2016, 11:43:37 PM
CFU=Blue BDU or BBDU

CWU = Blue polo and grey pants

Correct CFU = Corporate Field Uniform.

CWU = Corporate Working Uniform

(To save people from looking it up...)

CFDU = Corporate Flight Duty Uniform.

When standing together, it will look like colors on parade, and the questions will be raised
(by those all important yet unimportant yet important outside people) as to who can't read the regs,
or bleached their tapes.

6 combos for the next 5 years.

We're not the Army or the military, so I really don't care what they do or did - we are volunteers desperately trying to
hold onto credibility, and we have to do it on our own nickel.  At my meeting last night the majority
were all wearing BDU or CFU in the "former" colors.

We looked like an actual uniformed service. 

What I have to look forward to now is 5 years of uniform creep as people adapt or adopt. 
This is to the detriment of the uniformity, external appearance, and to zero mission benefit.

By next encampment season the cadre and students are going to look like a Joint Task Force, not a single service.

We have our meetings at a National Guard facility.  I've observed a handful of uniforms on the same day, including both variations of the ACU, UCP and Multicam.  I've even seen somebody fresh from jungle school in BDU's. In 2018, a third camo patttern will join the ACU mix, the OCP.   Along with the patrol cap, there are four beret colors.   Then there are cav and campaign hats.

So, despite hundreds of possible ACU combinations...nobody cares. 

In other words, the Civil Air Patrol has a uniform that is... NOT uniform.

:P

In other words, the US Army has a uniform that is... NOT uniform!

???

In other words, will the United States Air Force have a uniform that is... NOT uniform?

;D

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on July 10, 2016, 12:30:05 AM
In other words, the Civil Air Patrol has a uniform that is... NOT uniform.

:P

In other words, the US Army has a uniform that is... NOT uniform!

???

In other words, will the United States Air Force have a uniform that is... NOT uniform?

;D

Among a group wearing a mix of BDU and ABU, the biggest thing that's likely to stick out is if somebody is wearing something other than a patrol cap with their BDU's. 

Quote from: C/CMSgt Allen on May 05, 2016, 11:43:53 AM
I am really excited for the ABU's! They look really nice and professional. My only problem is that the switch may be costly.

Costly and hard to find depending of the sizes. My son is 13 years old. Sizes are too big on him. [emoji20]

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

Quote from: doyola38 on October 18, 2016, 12:37:49 AM

Quote from: C/CMSgt Allen on May 05, 2016, 11:43:53 AM
I am really excited for the ABU's! They look really nice and professional. My only problem is that the switch may be costly.

Costly and hard to find depending of the sizes. My son is 13 years old. Sizes are too big on him.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-2-Propper-Air-Force-ABU-Jackets-50-50-Nylon-Cotton-TWILL-/151831847402

At these prices you could have them taken in, etc.

(http://s9.postimg.org/9moj5c167/abuebay.jpg)

I just personally sewed two sets of these over the weekend and they are very well made.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 18, 2016, 12:56:47 AM

Quote from: doyola38 on October 18, 2016, 12:37:49 AM

Quote from: C/CMSgt Allen on May 05, 2016, 11:43:53 AM
I am really excited for the ABU's! They look really nice and professional. My only problem is that the switch may be costly.

Costly and hard to find depending of the sizes. My son is 13 years old. Sizes are too big on him.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-2-Propper-Air-Force-ABU-Jackets-50-50-Nylon-Cotton-TWILL-/151831847402

At these prices you could have them taken in, etc.

(http://s9.postimg.org/9moj5c167/abuebay.jpg)

I just personally sewed two sets of these over the weekend and they are very well made.

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161018/7d9575b313e52ad1dd36ca8e97d80a51.jpg)


Thks...everywhere I look they are too big for my 13 year old son. [emoji20]

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

That was my point, you won't find them in an exact size, since these are generally adult clothes.

It's not unusual for cadets to be swimming in their uniforms the first year or two.  Get something close,
put in some temp stitches here and there so he isn't tripping over the arms and buy the kid a sandwich.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 18, 2016, 01:12:13 AM
That was my point, you won't find them in an exact size, since these are generally adult clothes.

It's not unusual for cadets to be swimming in their uniforms the first year or two.  Get something close,
put in some temp stitches here and there so he isn't tripping over the arms and buy the kid a sandwich.

[emoji6] [emoji6]  Thanks.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

Those sizes are HUGE. You can't get them tailored in nearly enough for a reasonable price. I was issued 42Ls in basic and had them tailored in to a 36L size last year - you'd be paying more for the alterations than new ABUs trying to get  them to fit a typical 13 y/o. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/282215959267

There are a TON of ABU on ebay in all sizes, used and new.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=abu+shirt

Quote from: Eclipse on October 18, 2016, 03:17:15 AM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/282215959267 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/282215959267)

There are a TON of ABU on ebay in all sizes, used and new.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=abu+shirt (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=abu+shirt)

SHH.  Don't tell them that until I get another set.

I just got ABU GoreTex parka AND pants for $55 total, nice and new.  The parka alone is $180 from AAFES and $250 commercial retail.

http://www.militaryclothing.com/Kids-Air-Force-ABU-Uniform-4-Piece-Set.aspx

While they're not Milspec, when it comes to our smallest cadets you kind of have to sometimes adjust fire.

Unfortunately, nobody is making kid-sized Blues. There's no market for that.

At least these ABUs are way, way better, visually, than the kid-sized BDUs (the ones with the single exposed button pockets)

Quote from: doyola38 on October 18, 2016, 01:20:40 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on October 18, 2016, 01:12:13 AM
That was my point, you won't find them in an exact size, since these are generally adult clothes.

It's not unusual for cadets to be swimming in their uniforms the first year or two.  Get something close,
put in some temp stitches here and there so he isn't tripping over the arms and buy the kid a sandwich.

[emoji6] [emoji6]  Thanks.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

Take a look at the female ABUs.  They are cut for women but come in smaller sizes. 

Quote from: kwe1009 on October 18, 2016, 07:43:33 PM

Quote from: doyola38 on October 18, 2016, 01:20:40 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on October 18, 2016, 01:12:13 AM
That was my point, you won't find them in an exact size, since these are generally adult clothes.

It's not unusual for cadets to be swimming in their uniforms the first year or two.  Get something close,
put in some temp stitches here and there so he isn't tripping over the arms and buy the kid a sandwich.

[emoji6] [emoji6]  Thanks.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

Take a look at the female ABUs.  They are cut for women but come in smaller sizes.

Thks

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

What's the rush? Your son will be an adult by the time he needs ABU's.

Quote from: RazorbackPride on October 19, 2016, 03:17:55 AM
What's the rush? Your son will be an adult by the time he needs ABU's.

What's the rush? He's a cadet. Need we say more? :o

Quote from: PHall on October 19, 2016, 03:28:36 AM

Quote from: RazorbackPride on October 19, 2016, 03:17:55 AM
What's the rush? Your son will be an adult by the time he needs ABU's.

What's the rush? He's a cadet. Need we say more? :o

So far I have seen both cadets and SM frantically trying to find ABUs like they are the only authorized uniform.

Quote from: kwe1009 on October 19, 2016, 12:31:28 PM

Quote from: PHall on October 19, 2016, 03:28:36 AM

Quote from: RazorbackPride on October 19, 2016, 03:17:55 AM
What's the rush? Your son will be an adult by the time he needs ABU's.

What's the rush? He's a cadet. Need we say more? :o

So far I have seen both cadets and SM frantically trying to find ABUs like they are the only authorized uniform.

Hmm...I've seen that as well, just not on my unit or any of the nearby units.  Good decision making, I think!  People are looking hard at the *need*, the cost, and the timescales.  We've certainly encouraged our cadets to think that way. 

I'm still a bit away from H/W for ABU/BDUs, but with the tape changes, I'm really digging the BBDUs.

(http://i.imgur.com/w3ZVdzW.jpg)

I was mostly moving as quickly as possible to get everything in dark blue, because it looks precisely 10,000 times better than bright-freaking-blue:

(https://s13.postimg.org/k9nxvu6tj/DSD_9448c.jpg)

But I did get switched over to the ABU as well.  A set of ABUs, fleece, Gore-Tex parka and pants didn't cost me anything, so why not...  My state representative offered to pick up a set of ABUs for me when he returned from the capital...now that's a high level of service from an elected official.   >:D

Friends in high places and all!

I switched to the dark blue name tapes on the BDU as well.  Looks way better. 

Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on October 20, 2016, 02:20:42 PM
Friends in high places and all!

He's still national guard, so it's no skin off his back, really.  Nice guy, dedicated public servant.  It's good when your elected official is willing to do more than pay lip service to CAP or show up for photos for 15 minutes, and make sure your cadets actually, physically, have what they need too.

Quote from: kwe1009 on October 20, 2016, 09:41:36 PM
I switched to the dark blue name tapes on the BDU as well.  Looks way better.

It is exactly 10,000 times better.  I measured.

1000 times better?

Twenty Percent Cooler, there, Rainbow Dash!

V/r
Spam

(http://orig01.deviantart.net/d777/f/2011/337/3/0/rainbow_dash_a_10_thunderbolt_by_jxl5465-d4i252e.jpg)

Quote from: JC004 on October 20, 2016, 10:16:30 AM
But I did get switched over to the ABU as well.  A set of ABUs, fleece, Gore-Tex parka and pants didn't cost me anything, so why not...  My state representative offered to pick up a set of ABUs for me when he returned from the capital...now that's a high level of service from an elected official.   >:D

Nice!  Now, where's the phone number of our guy...   >:D

Quote from: Spam on October 20, 2016, 10:38:03 PM
1000 times better?

Twenty Percent Cooler, there, Rainbow Dash!

V/r
Spam

...

No no no.  Precisely 10,000 times better.  It's freaking awesome-level better.  aaaaaand they match, unlike a lot of what we've had to deal with in the past (the issue of aircrew wings being WAY different when compared to pilot and observer wings notwithstanding). 

Beyond just color issues, this is the annoying crap we've had to deal with over the past several years:
(http://www.colganmarketing.com/img/GT.jpg)

There is no guarantee that we won't have similar issues once Vanguard places an order to replace their current stock of dark blue cloth and either can't get what they previously ordered or they decide to go with something different or cheaper.

oh, they do it just to be funny.

...and because CAP has no CAP-SPECS.

...and because Vanguard forgot about quality control for things like what might happen when your Gore-Tex tab is exposed to, you know, rain....like it's SUPPOSED TO BE:
(http://www.colganmarketing.com/img/goretex.jpg)

BTW, this is why I always always recommend that you pre-wash/pre-shrink your insignia before sewing.

I stick my insignia into a shirt or trouser pocket with one of those "color catcher" sheets and then wash the the whole deal once in warm water and run it thru the dryer.

After that, *never* run my uniform thru the dryer, BTW, to keep the dimensional stability of the insignia.

Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk

I use very hot water and hand-washing laundry detergent, squeeze, spray with more hot water, squeeze, then pat dry with paper towels to remove excess dye.  I also steam, steam, and steam some more with an iron so the insignia shrinks as much as it's going to.  THEN they get very stiff interfacing backings, folded with sharp edges, tacked, basted, and sewn tightly down. 

They all bleed, but no Vanguard insignia has ever bled like the parka tabs they were producing.  A little rain, and it turned the leaf DARK BROWN.  Then it CONTINUED to bleed dye in water.  I removed a lot of the dye that had soaked into the leaf, but not nearly enough.

So I haven't really heard anybody bring it up, but there is an update for the ABU wear, dated 24 Oct 2016.

Found here:
https://www.capmembers.com/cap_national_hq/cap-transition-to-abus-announced/

Changes:
1. Unit/Organizational patch and National Staff Badge shown in attachment A6-1 are also allowed to be wown on the right breast pocket.
2. Members may wear the BDU Field Jacket or Gortex Parka with the ABU until 01 Jun 2018.

That is all.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

Ozzy- I noticed it, but I was avoiding pretty much everything potentially controversial since the election was already creating enough of that.
>:D


Good changes, within the realm of CAP reality. And I've seen (from afar) the same allowances for military types, who are either paid or receive a uniform stipend, if not both.

Quote from: Ozzy on November 17, 2016, 06:13:22 PM
So I haven't really heard anybody bring it up, but there is an update for the ABU wear, dated 24 Oct 2016.

Found here:
https://www.capmembers.com/cap_national_hq/cap-transition-to-abus-announced/

Changes:
1. Unit/Organizational patch and National Staff Badge shown in attachment A6-1 are also allowed to be wown on the right breast pocket.
2. Members may wear the BDU Field Jacket or Gortex Parka with the ABU until 01 Jun 2018.

That is all.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

I'm glad they authorized the BDU field jacket for continued use.  The APECS parka is expensive and doesn't show up in big numbers in the surplus haunts I frequent.   And, I just love the M-65.

APECS (Gortex) Parka depends on where you get it... I bought a few weeks ago a brand new one with tags for $50 on ebay and $35 for slightly used pants (No stains). I also was able to score a level 7 ECWCS top and bottom new for $70. I won't have any problem any more with the cold!

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

And yet, the guidance still refers to wearing them "off base".

I would like to see the service life extended of the woodland GoreTex parka by authorizing it with the flight suit (AF style).  This is permitted by AFI, so should be for CAP.

I would also like to see a different GoreTex parka authorized for the Blueberry Suit.  I plan to submit such a proposal.

Quote from: JC004 on November 19, 2016, 12:17:32 AM
I would also like to see a different GoreTex parka authorized for the Blueberry Suit.  I plan to submit such a proposal.

Or better yet, authorize woodland or ABU goretex parka with the blue BDUs.

Quote from: JC004 on November 19, 2016, 12:17:32 AM

I would also like to see a different GoreTex parka authorized for the Blueberry Suit.  I plan to submit such a proposal.

You can wear just about any Goretex parka you wish with the BBDU as long as it is "conservatively colored".   

5.2.1.10. Outergarments. Outergarments for this uniform include the blue field jacket, black fleece or any conservatively colored commercial coat that covers the shirt.

Quote from: jeders on November 21, 2016, 02:04:11 PM

Quote from: JC004 on November 19, 2016, 12:17:32 AM
I would also like to see a different GoreTex parka authorized for the Blueberry Suit.  I plan to submit such a proposal.

Or better yet, authorize woodland or ABU goretex parka with the blue BDUs.

The Air Force would approve that?  I severely doubt the Air Force would be totally excited about that.

Quote from: Damron on November 21, 2016, 04:23:54 PM

Quote from: JC004 on November 19, 2016, 12:17:32 AM

I would also like to see a different GoreTex parka authorized for the Blueberry Suit.  I plan to submit such a proposal.

You can wear just about any Goretex parka you wish with the BBDU as long as it is "conservatively colored".   

5.2.1.10. Outergarments. Outergarments for this uniform include the blue field jacket, black fleece or any conservatively colored commercial coat that covers the shirt.

The Woodland GoreTex, a uniform item the Air Force still wishes to control, qualifies as a commercial design?  I'm not sure the Air Force would agree with that either.  And attaching grade insignia?  Big no-no.  If the Air Force wanted CAP wearing military-distinctive items with the Blueberry Suit, that would be included.

Quote from: JC004 on November 21, 2016, 05:09:58 PM

The Woodland GoreTex, a uniform item the Air Force still wishes to control, qualifies as a commercial design?  I'm not sure the Air Force would agree with that either.  And attaching grade insignia?  Big no-no.  If the Air Force wanted CAP wearing military-distinctive items with the Blueberry Suit, that would be included.

When you said you would like to see a different parka authorized for the BBDU, I didn't think you were referring to any uniform items.

Is grade really that important?

Something like this:

(http://www.lakeland.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/650x650/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/a/cansip2_silo_2.jpg)

Is a much better choice for CAP across the board then camo or dark blue.

I wonder when that message is ever going to get across - we're not hiding.

Quote from: Damron on November 21, 2016, 05:16:44 PM

Quote from: JC004 on November 21, 2016, 05:09:58 PM

The Woodland GoreTex, a uniform item the Air Force still wishes to control, qualifies as a commercial design?  I'm not sure the Air Force would agree with that either.  And attaching grade insignia?  Big no-no.  If the Air Force wanted CAP wearing military-distinctive items with the Blueberry Suit, that would be included.

When you said you would like to see a different parka authorized for the BBDU, I didn't think you were referring to any uniform items.

I'm sorry.  I thought it was self-evident, since random parkas are already authorized. 

Quote from: Eclipse on November 21, 2016, 05:16:59 PM
Is grade really that important?

Something like this:

...

Is a much better choice for CAP across the board then camo or dark blue.

I wonder when that message is ever going to get across - we're not hiding.

Why authorize specifically it if only a few people on a mission would be wearing it, at most?  That's why we have the vests that are reflective and shiny.  The blue M-65 is AWFUL.  Cotton kills.  Let these people wear something that won't make them freeze in winter.  That's why the military switched to a sensible layering system.  The police out there searching with us are wearing blue or brown with vests.  The state parks people out there are wearing green and probably vests.

Well they already can switch to something else - anything.

But if you're going to make a reg-based prescription, it should if the mission, not just be worried about a rank tab.

The only dark blue gortex I've ever seen is a Coast Guard one that is around $350 retail - not something the
average member who can wear literally anything else is going to be interested in, and to make it better they
are hard to come by and even more difficult to find in the sizes many people wearing the CFU would need.

We have a new uniform that blends in with nothing.  ABUs.  Vests are required.  Our attempt (CAWG's) at a mission uniform didn't work out.  Wearing the uniform is a key part of the cadet program, and a lot of our GTMs are cadets. 

I don't support blue for the reason you mention.  I support black, which are about $100 -- a good price for a Gore-Tex jacket.  I have a civilian coat that cost much more than that.  Black is also worn by those wearing the fleece or the leather jacket. 

There isn't a truly stand-out excellent solution here. 

I always consider burden on membership, in everything.  That's local operating procedures, large activity requirements, training, paperwork, costs, everything.  Lots of people in charge do not.  U.S. Civil Air Patrol tapes, anyone?

I even have a plan to offer DIRT-CHEAP basic supplies for GTMs and UDFT Members.  The kits I'm developing are quality, but because we buy in bulk and nullify shipping, plus the need, for example, to but a WHOLE BOX of Band-Aids, we kick the hell out of the start-up cost.  As another example, I'd be getting their triangular bandages for 50 cents.  I think that I had to spend $3+ at the drug store.  Same for quality pens at a dirt cheap price (with an option to get a Space Pen cheaper than you can buy from a retailer or Space Pen online).  If we buy enough, I may offer a limited number of kits here for members (first aid kit, map kit, survival kit, etc.).  The money could help fund my squadron's ground team training, or cadets who have financial difficulty.

Quote from: JC004 on November 21, 2016, 06:28:24 PM
We have a new uniform that blends in with nothing.  ABUs.  Vests are required.  Our attempt (CAWG's) at a mission uniform didn't work out.  Wearing the uniform is a key part of the cadet program, and a lot of our GTMs are cadets.

My wing also went with a mission uniform and so far it's been very successful. Granted we don't treat the ground team as a cadet activity (I think there are two, maybe three cadets out of 40 people on the team), but the uniform of the blue BDU pants and a horrifically bright orange shirt with reflective stripes matches what the other SAR teams in the state wear. I think the guys on the space station spotted the team once.

Wearing the uniform is certainly a key component to the cadet program overall, but it's not a key component to a cadet working on a ground team. The mission is the key component for both seniors and cadets alike.

I would love to see the supp for that.

While we can ponder a myriad of uniform possibilities, some things just work out.

This summer at NESA I was reminded how a $2 piece of gear, the orange reflective vest, and the black NESA cap unified a collection of members wearing no less than three uniforms.   Despite what was being worn underneath, ground teams looked surprisingly uniform.

That said, given the heat of an Indiana summer, a long-sleeved orange reflective shirt is a sensible ground team option.  Black t-shirt, BDU blouse, and orange vest are two layers too many when it's 100 degrees. 

I've thought of wearing a BDU battle shirt at NESA just to see if anybody notices, or cares.  With a vest on, it looks like BDU sleeves. 

I Scotchguard my M-65 every year and it does pretty well in the rain.  It's not Goretex but a couple of bucks certainly improves it.