Shifting "up" Level Completion requirements for promotion

[FlyTiger77]

^ "What problem is this proposal supposed to fix?"  Are you kidding?  By the time a member is appointed to a senior leadership position in CAP, don't you think he or she should be fully versed in all phases of CAP culture, procedures, policies and regulations?  Don't you think it may be a good idea for all aspiring a senior leadership position in CAP to have, at least, the best CAP credentials to hold such a position? 

Then again, as Cecil DP said; "Why apply logic when Cronyism, Nepotism, and Sycopathy have worked so well for almost 70 years?"

Does rank (up to Lt Col), in and of itself, denote senior leadership in CAP or does it merely denote professional development achievement?

[SarDragon]

<invokes Meatballs> It just doesn't matter. </ Meatballs>

Repeat as necessary.

[FW]

Does rank (up to Lt Col), in and of itself, denote senior leadership in CAP or does it merely denote professional development achievement?

Jack, that is exactly the problem we are discussing on this thread.  The perception is there is no real relationship between the PD program and grade or leadership postion.

This has been discussed on numerous threads over the last couple of years in various forms so, IMHO, the problem exists.  The majority of the posters here think there is a need for improvement.  I agree.  However, I don't think it will happen because of our entrenched system as it is.

[RiverAux]

Does rank (up to Lt Col), in and of itself, denote senior leadership in CAP or does it merely denote professional development achievement?

To some extent yes PD levels do have some linkage to leadership experience either in command or in a staff officer position.  Due to our excessive special appointment/mission related skills promotion opportunities it isn't as clear as it should be, but thats a topic for another thread (and we've had them). 

[Patterson]

^ "What problem is this proposal supposed to fix?"  Are you kidding?  By the time a member is appointed to a senior leadership position in CAP, don't you think he or she should be fully versed in all phases of CAP culture, procedures, policies and regulations?  Don't you think it may be a good idea for all aspiring a senior leadership position in CAP to have, at least, the best CAP credentials to hold such a position? 

hahahhaha......when a person is able to be a member of CAP for 16 Months, and haveing just completed Level 2 gets promoted to the position of Wing Commander all of our PRO Development and Rank and Grade nonsense....is well....nonsense!!

Why Can't the member who has been a Cadet, and a Senior for over 14 years attend activities that only "Major's" can attend.  Why does the National Commander limit National Staff Positions to those that are a Major ONLY?!?!?!?!?!

If the guy off the street who has the CAP political connections become a Wing Commander in three years having only been a First Lieutenant, and only holding a Squadron Staff job.....something is really wrong with the organization.

How about my Squadron Member who runs a multimillion dollar business, who retired as a Captain from the Army after 15 years of enlisted and commissioned service and has demonstrated leadership potential be allowed to enroll in ACSC, or apply for a National Leadership or staff Position.  Instead lets be sure to hold him back, tell him he does not know CAP well enough, even though he just got his Level 3 award, completed RSC, CLC, SLS, UCC and TLC but has to STOP and wait to make Major before allowed to continue.

The whole system is broken, this is not a fix to anything.   

[arajca]

The grade restrictions on SOS, ACSC, and AWC are not imposed by CAP, but are imposed by the AF on CAP personnel just like on AF personnel.

[Patterson]

The grade restrictions on SOS, ACSC, and AWC are not imposed by CAP, but are imposed by the AF on CAP personnel just like on AF personnel.

But as the AF and many here like to remind us.....we are not Air Force.  In fact our Rank means nothing when the guy of the street can be promoted to whatever the National Commander will allow.

What about National Staff College.  Should the Doctor who joins CAP and makes Major faster than a 15 year member get to go, but not the guy with 15 years. 

How about National Staff Positions and serving on those "advisory teams".  I can be the best candidate for an advisory team, but because I did not know the Wing Commander and was not "given" Major, I obviously have no knowledge on what I may be best at.  In what world does that make sense.

Arbitrary "minimum rank" mandates are fine when the rank and grade means something, but in CAP, as has been stated hundreds of times on this board, DOES NOT!!!!!!

If we are going to make Rank actually mean something, lets stop special promotions.  Work your way to Wing Commander, don't be a First Lieutenant and get the job because you know the Region Commander.

I think we all have either heard the stories or seen members come into CAP specifically to be placed in a Leadership Position and get the "rank".  that takes away all fairness and reason to even have the rank structure.

[arajca]

SOS, ACSC, AWC are AF course, not CAP. The AF needs some measure to determine when the appropriate time for a CAP member to take these courses and decided on grade, since it probably made more sense to them (and fit into their forms) than anything else CAP has.

[Patterson]

^ Ok, lets get someone to fix that.  I know no one.....do you?!?!  CAP had to agree to that at one point. 

Lets make registering for AF distance courses a progressive measure that must be signed off on by the Squadron, Group and Wing Commanders then.  Perhaps you must have SLS, CLC and RSC done before be allowed to enroll in AWC, then for ACSC you would need SLS and CLC.  If you don't like that, throw time limits in.  Say for ACSC you need 5 years in CAP before enrolling.  Then for AWC you need 8 years.

Something has to be more fair than arbitrary grade limits.  In fact when enrolling for ACSC or AWC, the Air Force sends the requests to CAP NHQ to verify rank.  Instead of verifying rank, lets get all parties to agree to verify courses completed.     

Wow....sorry to hijack this thread!  I am just sick of hearing of members not being allowed to do something when they are clearly more qualified than others. 

[Ned]

hahahhaha......when a person is able to be a member of CAP for 16 Months, and haveing just completed Level 2 gets promoted to the position of Wing Commander all of our PRO Development and Rank and Grade nonsense....is well....nonsense!!

Hmmm.  "Nonsense" is a little strong, don't you think?  I think we can both agree that it would be extremely rare for a 16-month member to be named a wing commander.  In the hundreds, if not thousands, of wing commanders in our 60+ year history, how many did you find?

And why not give the region and national commanders a little faith and credit and assume that if they ever faced such an unusual dearth of available talent that they were forced to appoint a relatively inexperienced member as wing commander, that they still selected the best available candidate?

Why Can't the member who has been a Cadet, and a Senior for over 14 years attend activities that only "Major's" can attend.  Why does the National Commander limit National Staff Positions to those that are a Major ONLY?!?!?!?!?!

If you actually wanted an answer to the question, perhaps you should consider sending your inquiry through the chain of command for a possible response.  Or ask her yourself if you bump into her at the NB or your wing conference.

I can't speak for her, of course, but if I were ever the National Commander I might set a similar requirement to help me screen applicants.  Achieving the CAP grade of major tends to show a certain dedication to the corporation and shows some accomplishment in our PD program.  If an otherwise highly qualified applicant cannot be bothered to work in their specialty track or attend an SLS, CLC, or a staff college, that tells me something about them.

Obviously not a totally reliable system, but one that I might reasonably choose to employ to help me select a relatively few staff members.

If the guy off the street who has the CAP political connections become a Wing Commander in three years having only been a First Lieutenant, and only holding a Squadron Staff job.....something is really wrong with the organization.

I don't mean to go all Darth Vader on you, but I find you lack of faith disturbing.  Why on earth would a region commander select an inexperienced wing commander unless the region commander - after an extensive application process and careful review - sincerely believed that the relatively inexperienced member was the best possible choice among the available applicants?

I guess I somewhat agree that if the best candidate is the one with relatively little experience, then "something is wrong with the organization," but the problem is much more likely to be the overarching requirments of the wing commander job (applicants tend to be relatively wealthy members - often retired - who can afford the thousands of dollars of unreimbursed expenses and the hundreds of hours away from business and family).  And there are some pretty small wings out there in terms of membership, where there simply aren't as many available applicants as we would like.

How about my Squadron Member who runs a multimillion dollar business, who retired as a Captain from the Army after 15 years of enlisted and commissioned service and has demonstrated leadership potential be allowed to enroll in ACSC, or apply for a National Leadership or staff Position.  Instead lets be sure to hold him back, tell him he does not know CAP well enough, even though he just got his Level 3 award, completed RSC, CLC, SLS, UCC and TLC but has to STOP and wait to make Major before allowed to continue.

Hmmm.  And how long would it take your friend to become qualified for promotion to major?  Answer: several years, during which he could serve with distinction at the squadron, group,  wing, or region level.  Heck, under your scenarios, he could be selected as a group or wing commander.

How does that equate with being "held back"?  Well over 98% of all the command and staff positions in CAP are open to captains and below.

The whole system is broken, this is not a fix to anything.

Again, this seems a little overstated.  If your friend can successfully serve in over 98% of the staff positions in CAP, it is hard to understand why we should describe the system as "broken."  Perhaps I am missing your point.

Finally, let me take the opportunity to remind you of the wisdom that appears under the USAF Core Value of Service Before Self, in discussing Faith in the System.

To lose faith in the system is to adopt the view that you know better than those above you in the chain of command what should or should not be done.  In other words, to lose faith in the system is to place self before service.  Leaders can be very influential in this regard: if a leader resists the temptation to doubt 'the system', then the subordinates might follow suit.

These still seem like wise words for all members.

[MSG Mac]

The Air Force has grade restrictions on the SOS, ACSC, and AWC for a reason. That is to train these officers at a specific time in their careers. Otherwise a 2LT could take ACSC and by the time he reaches a position where the course would have been helpful, his education would be obsolete by a decade or more, and therefore a waste of time, effort, and money. But why worry about Air Force PME when CAP has its own Professional Development Courses which are more appropriate for CAP members and in which the only grade limitations are at the NSC level. Having taken all these courses (some several times over), and the Air Force Courses up to ACSC, the CAP courses are definetly better for our membership.

[Patterson]

Achieving the CAP grade of major tends to show a certain dedication to the corporation and shows some accomplishment in our PD program.  If an otherwise highly qualified applicant cannot be bothered to work in their specialty track or attend an SLS, CLC, or a staff college, that tells me something about them.

I see.  However a flaw is built in that allows the following individuals to promote to Major after 1 year as a Captain and having been a special appointment to begin with;
Chaplains
Health Service Personnel
Aerospace Education Officer
Legal Officers
Finance Officers

See my reasoning here Col.  Beginning on page 17 of CAR 35-5, it states

Health service personnel and legal officers are exempt from senior member professional development requirements after Level I.

The only requirement for them to be promoted to Major is 1 year as a Captain, and completion of Level 1.

So, the "ordinary member" waits upwards of 5 years to make Major, but Dr "whatshisname" gets it in 1??  Then may apply for everything and anything that is open only to Majors or above.

That may seem right to some of you, but it does not seem right to me.  I can not explain the reason for my dislike for this situation, other than "not fair or right". 

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

CAP, like the AF and other services, is willing to give out carrots for professional services we need and would be very expensive to pay for out of our dues.

Let's take your Dr "whatshisname". He joins CAP, completes Level I and is promoted to Captain. After one year he gets promoted to Major.
Unless the NHQ staff position / advisory board has a medical component, I don't see his application getting past step 2. (Step 1 being he passed the grade check.) In theory he could now take ACSC. I would think his commander would pause before hitting the approve button and suggest to Dr "whatshisname" that if he is interested in PD / PME, perhaps SLS, CLC or SOS might be in order first.

Major generally (not always) shows some dedication and service to CAP.  Between the PD requirements and Wing CC approval you can generally assume they've been there and done that in some part of the program. This coincides with the fact that Major is the first field grade.

Is it perfect? No. Can we change the requirements for CAP officers enrolling in AF PME? No.

I could get behind the shift up idea of this thread.

[PHall]

Achieving the CAP grade of major tends to show a certain dedication to the corporation and shows some accomplishment in our PD program.  If an otherwise highly qualified applicant cannot be bothered to work in their specialty track or attend an SLS, CLC, or a staff college, that tells me something about them.

I see.  However a flaw is built in that allows the following individuals to promote to Major after 1 year as a Captain and having been a special appointment to begin with;
Chaplains
Health Service Personnel
Aerospace Education Officer
Legal Officers
Finance Officers

See my reasoning here Col.  Beginning on page 17 of CAR 35-5, it states

Health service personnel and legal officers are exempt from senior member professional development requirements after Level I.

The only requirement for them to be promoted to Major is 1 year as a Captain, and completion of Level 1.

So, the "ordinary member" waits upwards of 5 years to make Major, but Dr "whatshisname" gets it in 1??  Then may apply for everything and anything that is open only to Majors or above.

That may seem right to some of you, but it does not seem right to me.  I can not explain the reason for my dislike for this situation, other than "not fair or right".

Repeat after me, "Life is not fair." Repeat as many times as needed.

[DogCollar]

Achieving the CAP grade of major tends to show a certain dedication to the corporation and shows some accomplishment in our PD program.  If an otherwise highly qualified applicant cannot be bothered to work in their specialty track or attend an SLS, CLC, or a staff college, that tells me something about them.

I see.  However a flaw is built in that allows the following individuals to promote to Major after 1 year as a Captain and having been a special appointment to begin with;
Chaplains


That may seem right to some of you, but it does not seem right to me.

I can only speak about Chaplains.  What grade a Chaplain enters  CAP as, depends entirely on the amount of applicable higher education he/she has.  For example, a chaplain with a bachelors degree and 5 years ministerial experience, that is officially endorsed by her/his religious body can enter as a 1st Lt.  If the Chaplain has a Master of Divinity or equal degree, Captain.  If the Chaplain has an earned Doctoral degree that is in a related field, i.e., theology, pastoral care, homiletics, etc...Major.  Most CAP Chaplains come aboard as Captains, as they have earned a Master of Divinity degree or equivalent.  I did.  I've had to complete levels 1 through 3, just like everyone else, and I had to wait the normal 3 years TIG in order to be promoted to Major.  I have since completed Level 4, but will have to wait 4 years TIG in order to be promoted to Lt. Col.

[Ned]

   However a flaw is built in that allows the following individuals to promote to Major after 1 year as a Captain and having been a special appointment to begin with;
Chaplains
Health Service Personnel
Aerospace Education Officer
Legal Officers
Finance Officers

This may be one of those "one person's 'flaw' is another person's 'feature'" kind of things.

Reasonable minds may differ as to the value to CAP of our advanced grade appointments and promotions for professional skills (doctors, lawyers, etc), mission-related skills (CFIs, A&P, etc), and special appointments (former military officers & NCOs, etc.).

But our volunteer leaders on the NB considered the advantages and disadvantages of such policies and decided they were a Good Thing for CAP when they voted for the regulation and subsequent changes over the years.  The odds are that there will be additions, deletetions, and other changes to these policies in the future depending on our experiences.

A couple of things to consider - the Air Force has similar policy of appointing professionals like doctors, lawyers, and chaplains (among other things) at higher grades and using a separate professional development and promotion system.  To be sure, there are some important differences in that CAP seems to offer these kinds of appointments/promotions to a broader range of skills than the AF does.  (Being a CFI, for instance. does not rate advance grade as an AF pilot.)  But our volunteer leaders have decided that the needs of CAP are such that it makes sense to offer advanced grade to CFIs in an effort to recruit more of them.

Also, remember that highly specialized officers like physicians or lawyers may achieve higher grade in CAP, but are comparatively unlikely to serve in command slots.  They are almost always staffers.  (There have been exceptions, of course.  We have had a lawyer or two as National Commander.)

So, the "ordinary member" waits upwards of 5 years to make Major, but Dr "whatshisname" gets it in 1??  Then may apply for everything and anything that is open only to Majors or above.

Yup.  But remember, that there are very, very few opporunities available only "majors or above."  AFAIK, we are only talking about NSC and the relatively few positions on the volunteer national staff.  I haven't looked at the class profiles for the last several NSCs, but my impression is they are not stuffed with doctors and lawyers taking up space and depriving the "ordinary members" of the slots.

Indeed, my guess is that it is the opposite - since many professionals are exempt from PD, they don't need to spend a week at NSC.  So they don't.

Similarly, we don't have a plethora of field grade doctors and lawyers crowding out the "ordinary members" in positions on the national staff such as Cadet Programs Advisor, Public Affairs Advisor, or Maintenance Advisor. 

That may seem right to some of you, but it does not seem right to me.  I can not explain the reason for my dislike for this situation, other than "not fair or right".

I hope it goes almost without saying that you are entitled to disagree with any decision or policy even if you cannot fully articulate the reasons for your disagreement.

It is my hope and gentle guidance that you express you disagreement reasonably and respectfully.

[Patterson]

^ Thank you Ned!  I did not want to upset anyone here, especially since I am new.   I will save that for post # 1,000   

It just seemed like every time a position was advertised by National to serve on a "board", "advisory committee", or apply for higher leadership positions, it always said "Major or Higher".  My concern is that perhaps it was just an arbitrary screening mechanism.  I do understand from the explanations here that there does need to be a Service and CAP commitment requirement.  I am just worried that perhaps the best people are not being given the chance to apply because they may only be a "Captain".

[MSG Mac]

The only requirement for them to be promoted to Major is 1 year as a Captain, and completion of Level 1.

So, the "ordinary member" waits upwards of 5 years to make Major, but Dr "whatshisname" gets it in 1??  Then may apply for everything and anything that is open only to Majors or above.

That may seem right to some of you, but it does not seem right to me.  I can not explain the reason for my dislike for this situation, other than "not fair or right".

You left out the part that mandates  a "Doctorate" in the career field whether its as an Educator, Lawyer, or Chaplain, etc. Also requires that the applicable licensing to practice or perform the duties of the specialty are current.

[Patterson]

^ Mac.... tell me what a Doctor can legally do in CAP again??  That's right.....bandages and aspirin.  He can't treat members, can't give medical advice (malpractice may be an issue) etc. etc. etc..

I am addressing CAP's items, not going to say "gee guys, he spent an extra year in school....lets give him Major".  I have advanced degrees past high school as well ......but mine are in Engineering, not medicine so I guess I am not the "ideal member".

I now see that really I should be agreeing with the original poster and support Pro Development levels that equal Grade.  That way my Friend the Doctor, has to complete Levels 1-4 to get past Captain.  Actually that would make everything more fair!!

Wow....that took me 2 days to figure out.  This is Fun! 

[Ned]

One last thought.

The relative "worth" of CAP grade is probably the second-most discussed topic here (after uniforms, of course) and the general consensus amongst the "CT brain trust" appears to be that it only represents a given level of PD.  Restated, many people perceive CAP grade not so much as an emblem of authority, but that it simply recognizes that the member has hung around for a while and surrendered a given number weekends for things like SLS, CLC, etc.

Given that perception, if I were the National Commander, I might want to upgrade the corporate culture and help attach additional importance to field-grade rank.

And one way I might do that is to emphasize the value of that rank by insisting on it for positions of national responsibility.  This might tend to encourage company grade officers to promote and recognize the additional time and effort put in by higher ranking officers.

For me it would be just one way to help change our culture for the better.

But that's just me.

After all, it does seem a little  inconsistent to complain that "CAP grade doesn't mean anything" and then to complain that only high ranking officers get to serve on the national staff.