CAP officers who do not deserve their rank - is it a big problem?

[AirAux]

No, it's not a big problem..Furthermore, if you are going to start messing with advanced promotions, don't forget promotions for state and federal legislators..

[flyboy53]

Good points

[Major Carrales]

How many threads must we have on this...basically the same...SUBJECT???

We get it, some of you hate the idea of CAP Officers.  To those ends I will write this...I would never support dropping people in grade for the bogus reasons presented in the last few threads on this matter.  Dropping people to some made up "CAP warrant officer" or "number scheme" is distracting at best and insulting at worst.

Next, nothing needs to so radically changed...there is no underlying motivation for such changes to CAP rank structure other than people's personal opinions.  People's statements that the USAF hates us for it or the "I heard my cousin's girlfriend's sister's doctor's son who's in the Air Force has a problem with us using Officer rank" nonsense do not reflect reality.  if it were true, the demand would come from them...the USAF.

Lastly, promotions for mission related skills are well desrved...they indicate a skill level achieved outside of CAP for a skillset that is being used in CAP.  I can tell you this...my Group Commander will promote no such person unless those skills are being used.  Educators coming to CAP hoping for a bump to some advanced grade don't get the green light unless they become AE officers.  Pilots have to take staff positions.  Lawyers have to apply their knowledge and skills as CAP Legal Officers.

The promotions for advancement come at a price in my neck of the woods, that price is an actual dedication to CAP service.  Those charts in the CAPR 39 series are only a starting point, not a finishing one.  Commanders have to be honest with new members about it.  Some use it as a recruiting tool..."Hey, you can be a 1st Lt if you join." 

In those practices lie the problem...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I feel a bit odd saying someone does/doesn't "deserve" their rank, but I have seen a few examples that raise a big "?" above my head.

One I knew of some years ago...brainiac CPA, came in as a Captain because of it, great at Finance and number crunching, better than I'll ever be (totally reconstructed the unit finances)...but not so strong on the overall CAP program.  Got promoted to Major without 3 years TIG.  Maybe he got promoted on his ability with number crunching.  I don't know.

I remember hearing years ago, when I first joined, that once in your CAP career the TIG could be waived, so maybe that's it, though I'd thought that was for all members, not just direct appointees.

I have no problem with following a policy similar to the AF on direct appointments:

Medical (MD, DO) - Captain
Dental (DDS and above) - Captain
Nurse (LPN) - 1st Lieutenant
Nurse (RN)/Nurse Practitioner - Captain
Legal - 1st Lieutenant/Captain
Chaplain - 1st Lieutenant
Pilots - six month TIG for 2nd Lieutenant waived once certified as Mission Pilot

Promotions after initial appointment dependent on the same PD requirements as any other CAP member, unless they've had similar achievements on Active Duty, Reserve Component, State Guard or (going a little out on a limb, though the CGAUXIES here may agree with me) USCG Auxiliary training.

OK, let the tomatoes fly...

[Major Carrales]

I think the initial promotion is enough...after that they, if they desire to, should have to "back fill" to move up.  That is not unreasonable to ask of them.

People should not...per se...get promoted on the whims of "higher ups" unless it is specificed in the regulations.  For example, commanding a Unit for a year or becoming a Wing/Region/National level Commander.  Special Treatment breeds Special Problems, once we start circumnavigating the conventions by promoting people outside the regs as "rewards," we are on very shacky ground.  Lets not forget that the proper thing to do to award good performance is not a Promotion, but rather an Award (of which we have one such Taylor made in the Achievement Medal).  Promotions are rewards for Professional Development rubrics.

[ßτε]

It is in the regulations:

Finance Officers. Upon successful completion of Level I, the unit commander may initiate a CAPF 2 on qualified finance officers, recommending appointment to an appropriate grade, as outlined below.
Major. A financial professional with a master's degree in accounting, certified public accountant (CPA) or certified management accountant (CMA) that has served 1 year time-in-grade as a captain may be appointed to the grade of major.

Not all promotions are based on "Professional Development rubrics." Most are, but there are skills other than professional development and duty performance that CAP wants to reward with promotions.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

It is in the regulations:

Finance Officers. Upon successful completion of Level I, the unit commander may initiate a CAPF 2 on qualified finance officers, recommending appointment to an appropriate grade, as outlined below.
Major. A financial professional with a master's degree in accounting, certified public accountant (CPA) or certified management accountant (CMA) that has served 1 year time-in-grade as a captain may be appointed to the grade of major.

Not all promotions are based on "Professional Development rubrics." Most are, but there are skills other than professional development and duty performance that CAP wants to reward with promotions.

OK.  I wasn't aware of that particular reg.

[Eeyore]

With the advanced promotions for mission skills, the Commander still had to approve them.

The current system works well if the Commander does their job, CCs do not have to give them an advanced promotion until they feel that they have at least a basic understanding of CAP and are committed to the program. I never give an advanced promotion for mission skills until they have been in for 6 months, during that six months we are doing everything we can to get them up to speed on the program with emphasis on what their mission skill means in CAP.

For a pilot, they better be working towards their Form 5, if not have it complete by the end of the 6 months, as well as be working on their aircrew qualifications. They also should be working through the PD, be mentored in a specialty track and be active in the unit.

If they don't want to wait on the advanced promotion to get a solid footing in our programs, they probably don't need to be there. It's really up to the Commander to enforce that, nothing says that the advanced promotion has to be given within a month of joining.

[ßτε]

They also should be working through the PD, be mentored in a specialty track

PD and specialty track participation should not be used as criteria for mission related skills promotion, just as mission related skills should not be used as criteria for duty performance promotions.

Mission related skills promotions should be based solely on the credentials and whether or not the member is using those skills.

[Eeyore]

If they aren't providing anything at the Squadron and just flying or going to SAREX's they are not an active member. I require every member in my squadron to be active in the squadron, that means training for a duty position and progressing through the PD program. If they are not, they do not participate in activities outside of the squadron, if they stop showing up to meetings (unless they talk to me about their reasons) they will be transferred to the 000 squadron.

Since I have implemented this policy, attendance has increased at both weekend activities and weekly meetings, proficiency flying has increased, PD progression has increased and new membership has increased.

I tell the new members coming in that they can receive an advanced promotion for (insert qualification here), but that they must be active in the things I have already mentioned. Most are more than happy to join and meet those expectations. Yes, I have lost 2-3 prospective members because they weren't willing to do it, but in all likelihood they would not have been contributing to our missions.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

If they aren't providing anything at the Squadron and just flying or going to SAREX's they are not an active member. I require every member in my squadron to be active in the squadron, that means training for a duty position and progressing through the PD program. If they are not, they do not participate in activities outside of the squadron, if they stop showing up to meetings (unless they talk to me about their reasons) they will be transferred to the 000 squadron.

:clap:

[Hawk200]

Mission related skills promotions should be based solely on the credentials and whether or not the member is using those skills.

That can create sticky situations. As a hypothetical, member comes in with a rating, get's 1LT. After a year and half (normal time in grade as 1LT), the member isn't promoted, and asks why. They're told that they haven't done any progression. In worst case, they raise a stink about doing the job that they got the advanced promotion for.

To move beyond the initial appointment, there's work to be done. Seen a few that left because they thought their initial promotion was all they needed.

[lordmonar]

As I said before....give them the initial promtion (and follow on promtion is allowed by regulations) but give them a drop dead date to back fill the CAP requirments.

That balances out the two trains of thought.

A CFI joins up...give him Capt...and he has two years to finish his Level II.  If after the two years he has only completed Level I and got his Tech rateing....demote him to 1st Lt.

An ex-military General joins up....you give him Lt Col....he has 4 years to get his Level IV.  If he only has his Level I at that time with no Specialty rating....demote him to 2d Lt.

Until you give people a reason to advance in their PD levels they will not do it.  It takes too much time, costs too much money.

It balances the need to attract mission related skills and the need to maintain the integrity of the PD/Promotion system.

[Eclipse]

Until you give people a reason to advance in their PD levels they will not do it.  It takes too much time, costs too much money.

?

Active participation will generally fulfill 80-90% of a given specialty's requirements and will cost virtually, to actually, nothing until you
start talking about RSC.

We should be pushing PD to build better members and staffers, not as just a means to promotion.

[ßτε]

Mission related skills promotions should be based solely on the credentials and whether or not the member is using those skills.

That can create sticky situations. As a hypothetical, member comes in with a rating, get's 1LT. After a year and half (normal time in grade as 1LT), the member isn't promoted, and asks why. They're told that they haven't done any progression. In worst case, they raise a stink about doing the job that they got the advanced promotion for.

To move beyond the initial appointment, there's work to be done. Seen a few that left because they thought their initial promotion was all they needed.

Of course. After the initial appointment, they would not be eligible to be promoted under mission related skills unless they later meet the criteria for captain, in which place TIG doesn't apply. To be promoted under duty performance, they would have to complete Level II, wait the 18 months TIG, and be performing in a duty position.

[ßτε]

If they aren't providing anything at the Squadron and just flying or going to SAREX's they are not an active member. I require every member in my squadron to be active in the squadron, that means training for a duty position and progressing through the PD program. If they are not, they do not participate in activities outside of the squadron, if they stop showing up to meetings (unless they talk to me about their reasons) they will be transferred to the 000 squadron.

Since I have implemented this policy, attendance has increased at both weekend activities and weekly meetings, proficiency flying has increased, PD progression has increased and new membership has increased.

I tell the new members coming in that they can receive an advanced promotion for (insert qualification here), but that they must be active in the things I have already mentioned. Most are more than happy to join and meet those expectations. Yes, I have lost 2-3 prospective members because they weren't willing to do it, but in all likelihood they would not have been contributing to our missions.

I commend you on what you have done in the squadron. It sounds like it is very successful.

However, you should not use participation in PD (other than Level I) or a duty position as criteria for mission related skills promotions. You can only use whether or not "they are contributing these skills to the CAP mission." You, as the commander, are the sole judge if the are doing this or not, but you should not use the fact they are not progressing in the PD program as a criteria.

SECTION D - MISSION RELATED SKILLS

4-2. Eligibility Requirements.

c. Complete Level I of the Senior Member Professional Development Program. Upon completion of Level I training, members are encouraged to enter an appropriate functional specialty track, but Level II training is not mandatory for promotion under this section. (It should be noted, however, that members promoted under these provisions will not be eligible for promotion above the grade of captain until they have achieved the appropriate skill level.)

[lordmonar]

Until you give people a reason to advance in their PD levels they will not do it.  It takes too much time, costs too much money.

?

Active participation will generally fulfill 80-90% of a given specialty's requirements and will cost virtually, to actually, nothing until you
start talking about RSC.

We should be pushing PD to build better members and staffers, not as just a means to promotion.

That is the reason why we should push PD....not the only motivator that we should use to convice people to do it.

It is like the Cadet Program.  A 12 year old does not join CAP so he can become a better American, and be a productive member of society.....but that is why we created the program.  The cadet joins because it is fun, he gets to do O-rides, do drill and ceremonies, ES work, wear spiffy uniforms.  We sneak the true purpose of the cadet program around the other things.  We want to promote community service....we don't lecture them on how it helps people, and is a good thing.....we tell them there is a ribbon for it.  We encourage the cadets to advance in the CP because we want them to learn the lessons that the program has to teach....we push that by rewarding them with rank.

It is not much different with adults.

If we want more professional leaders to help run our programs we reward that work with promotions.  Special promotions are a tool to recruit special skills and professionals.....but it weakens our tools to motivate them to become more productive members of CAP.

By putting an incentive to progress in the PD (even if it is a negative one.....advance in your PD or you will be demoted) it at least is an incentive.

[EMT-83]

Our local policy on special promotions requires all requirements except TIG be met.

I have a retired Army Captain who is still a Senior Member. He just completed SLS, so his promotion is now being processed. Same for the Instrument rated pilot who hasn't gotten around to finishing his Form 5 – no mission related promotion.

It's important to promote those eligible, but within reason. Handing out promotions when people walk in the door removes any incentive to work the program.

[AirAux]

Adding requirements outside of Reg's or demotion is way out of line and liable to get your tail removed from command.  The Reg's are not a guideline, they are the Reg's and to be obeyed..

[EMT-83]

Wing CC says it the commander's discretion on recommending promotions, which are not automatic (per the regulation).