Starting flight lessons

[maverik]

Hey I don't know if this belongs here but it is aviation related. Anyways I am starting flight lessons in a few weeks and I was wondering if anybody had any advice?

[SarDragon]

Bring a big wallet, and expect to use all your free time studying or flying. 

[PHall]

Bring a big wallet, and expect to use all your free time studying or flying. 

But mostly, bring a BIG wallet. 

Depending on how well you do, airplane availability and instructor costs, you can plan on burning through 5 to 10 thousand dollars before you get your licence.

[Chicago_Pilot]

Congratulations on getting started!

The big wallet comments have some truth behind them.  Just make sure you are going to be able to fly on a regular basis.  My successful students fly at least once a week (twice is even better).

Good students also do their homework.  Read ahead and have a list of questions to ask you instructor.

And have a great time!

[airdale]

I was wondering if anybody had any advice

Refuse to fly with instructors who are simply building hours and who have no real flying experience.  For the investment you are making, you do not want to be taught by someone who is one or two pages ahead of you in the book.  Yes, I know these kids have to make a living, but not on your dime.

Find someone who has real flying experience.  A freight dog, someone who flys light singles and twins for a living, someone who flys regularly in IMC to minimums, someone who really knows how the ATC system works from flying in it every day.  Logged time is not enough.  2000 hours of "dual given" is one kind of experience, but it is not the same as 2,000 hours of freight dog or ferry time.  A surprising number of high "dual given" instructors have hardly ever left their home fields, to say nothing of trying to beat a warm front as it moves across the country or routinely dealing with icing situations.  Many CAP-only instructors fall into this latter category simply because of the limitations of CAP flying.

All of this is not to say that experience-limited instructors don't have anything to teach you.  They do.  I have learned some new trick from virtually every instructor I've ever flown with.  But lack of experience limits the breadth of what an instructor has for you.

Children teaching children is the norm in this industry.  That does not mean that you need to participate.

Interview potential instructors.  Expect to talk to several even after you have communicated your standards, then pick the one whose personality seems to fit you best.  Consider it to be the ultimate preflight inspection.  If you can't find the right one at the place where you were initially planning to train, move on.  If an instructor doesn't work out after a few flights, start the process over.  Nothing else you do will have a bigger impact on your flying capabilities.

[CASH172]

Unless you've got a very reliable source of money, find scholarship money from somewhere.  Unless your instructor is some friend who won't charge a lot, I'd really find a good instructor.  Private Pilot is the stepping stone of any type of flying that you may do in the future and developing good skills here will really help you. 

[capchiro]

Fly as much as possible.  If you can't fly once a week, forget it.  Try to move into or onto the airport..LOL..Actually fly as much as possible.. Some flight school/ instructors allow or require students to get a certain number of backseat time as safety observers.  Fly with students that are working on advanced work, instrument, etc.  Try to get as much experience as possible.  Wash planes, babysit, do anything to be in the air.  If you are at the airport enough, people will notice and offer you rides..live it, breath it, and enjoy it,  Nothing is better, well, almost nothing, and sometimes that is a close second..Congratulations.

[es_g0d]

Hey, you're a cadet, aren't you?  You have some AWESOME opportunities available to you that I would highly recommend.  The National Flight Academy is a good one; there are other flight encampments around the country I'd recommend you look at if you can't get in there this year (since I think the deadline has passed).

Being a cadet in CAP is one of the most economical ways you can get a Private Pilot Certificate.  I obtained mine through CAP when I was a cadet.  The wallet still has to be fat -- but not as fat as it would if you went to a high-priced flight school or university!

Get up for it, stay motivated, work hard, but more than anything, keep up infectious enthusiasm!  And if you can't find an instructor, and you can make the commute to Alaska, I'm happy to help directly.

[maverik]

Yeah I job shadowed the  local FBO and I met the director of air operations and management, I also shadowed they're instructor and got to do a O-ride of sort and they said when ever you want lessons come back. I am getting a pretty good deal since my Grandpa was buddies with the managers and instructor so all in all it should be fun. And about a job Iam getting a not so glamorous job at the zoo but at least it keeps me in the air.

[flyguy06]

I agree to fly consistantly, flying is a motor skill,. the more you do it, the easier it will come. You must also study to though to learn the knowledge part. But yes, the more oftten you fly the quicker you pick up the skill.

I do agree with the comment about new instructors. I take it personal Iguess becaue I am a less than two year old CFI and I think I do a pretty good job. Everyone has to start somewhere. If all students went to high time instructors then instructors would never get high time. The FAA blessed uf off to be CFI's. I think that counts for something. I know many 70ish year old 10,000 hour CFI's thta forget things and dont teach the way a young person can relate to.

You have good and bad instructors of all ages and experience levels. Actually, the guy that just got his CFI ticket still remembers what is like to be a student pilot and can probably relate to the student better because it wasnt that long ago when he was there.
Now, I do agree not to get with a instructor merely interested in "building time" I hate that term. They are just interested in building hours togo to an airline. I genuinly like to teach. I like to share my knowledge of an activity I love with others. I am not just a CFI. I am an aviation enthusist.

[airdale]

flyguy06 ,

I think this is all irrelevant to the OP because of the situation he's chosen, but I'll respond to your comments in an attempt to clarify mine.

First, I am not criticizing inexperienced flight instructors.  They work hard and they work for dirt.  Flight instructing is on the the path to their dreams.  For the most part, they try to do the best they can for their students.

I am a less than two year old CFI and I think I do a pretty good job.

I'm sure, you do.

Everyone has to start somewhere.

Of course.

If all students went to high time instructors then instructors would never get high time.

I can't agree with this one.  There are lots of ways to build time without doing instruction.  The nice thing about instructing is that in some sense your students are paying your tuition.  That's a good deal for the instructior but not, IMHO, for the student.

The FAA blessed us off to be CFI's. I think that counts for something.

Well, yes, but with all due respect I don't think it counts for much.  Note that there is no  "Aeronautical Experience" section in the Part 61 CFI requirements.  In theory, a CFI might never have been farther from home than the 250 nm solo required for his commercial rating, never have flown higher than he did while learning chandelles, and never have fueied an airplane away from his home airport.  A double-I can get that rating without ever having flown in a cloud.  In fact, I think it is even possible to get the double-I without ever having filed an IFR flight plan.

You have good and bad instructors of all ages and experience levels. Actually, the guy that just got his CFI ticket still remembers what is like to be a student pilot and can probably relate to the student better because it wasn't that long ago when he was there.

Absolutely true.  But the point of my post was that someone who is serious about learning to fly is better served by an instructor with deep and broad "real" flying experience.  Enthusiasm is good.  Freshness is good.  But experience is trump: "Learn from the mistakes of others. You can't live long enough to make them all yourself."

[caprr275]

this is a email that i send to my students. there are alot of good websites out there

Aviation Wether - http://adds.aviationweather.noaa.gov/metars/

FAA SAFTEY-http://www.faasafety.gov/gslac/ALC/default.aspx
(learn and love this site!!!)

FAA SAFTEY- http://www.faasafety.gov/gslac/onlineresources.aspx?categoryId=24&masterId=1
this one is specific for student pilots take some time and read over the info on it. there are tons of great onlien programs that are FREE though this site.

FAR- http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?&c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14tab_02.tpl
you will want to order a copy for yourself... or you can just have one of my old ones (i would recomend that)

ACs- http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet
a ton of info on this site, just look it over and read some if you want

If your still reading
let me know what you like and what ur confused on, defentally check out the FAA Saftey site first. i love that site and it has alot alot alot of really good info on it in a cool way of presenting it.

[Flying Pig]

Regardless of what anyone tells you, flight training takes the same amount of money today as it did 40 years ago.  It takes every penny you have.

[PHall]

Regardless of what anyone tells you, flight training takes the same amount of money today as it did 40 years ago.  It takes every penny you have.

Amen brother!!

[Eclipse]

http://www.avscholars.com/AvScholars/Channels/Pay_for_Flight_Training/index.htm

[es_g0d]

Great comments all around.

I did see something, though, that made me take a step back.  We really need to rethink the idea of "flight lessons."  Taking lessons is good to learn many skills, such as horseback riding or oil painting. 

Flying requires much, much more.  Flying is partly physical eye-hand skill, but you'll find that'll come pretty quickly.  Taking "lessons" to learn those skills is just fine.  But once you get the mechanics down, you'll find that flying is more and more about the airspace that's between the ears.  Flying will become more and more about the headwork, as much or maybe even more as the physical skills.  In many cases, "taking lessons" to learn these skills just doesn't cut the mustard.

In short, it takes a lot of studying, thinking, and discussing flying to learn the art well.  All I'm saying here is that after a little while you can't just "take a lesson" to be where you need to be.  I'm espousing a philosophy.  And no matter how much you learn, you can always learn more.  Honestly, its one of the best things about flying: there's always something new!  It might just be a way of thinking about things, or a subtle fact that an old timer will pass along to you. 

While you'll need a CFI to add hours to your logbook, you can learn a lot just from other pilots.  Flyers form a community--plug into it and take away as much as you can from it!  It sounds like you're working at an FBO, so figure out who's deserving of respect and ask questions. 

Along that line, don't forget your CAP squadron.  You probably have some experienced pilots to talk to -- and if they love aviation like most pilots do, they'll be happy to help!  Additionally, make sure that you get all your CAP orientation rides!  Any time in the air will help you, even if its not a ride with a CFI.  Get used to being in and around airplanes, and things will begin to rub off.

Happy skies and tailwinds!!!

[CadetProgramGuy]

People.....

You all are forgetting the basics here.......

1. Keep the Blue half of the earth up and the ground part down.

2.  Push forward to go down, pull back to go up

3.  If you pull long enough the ground will be above the sky....Keep pulling.

4.  on Takeoff, keep you hand on the throttle. (my CFI cured me of that real quick)

5.  Always have a landing site picked out

There are many more, but you get the idea.

Good Luck!!

[RogueLeader]

Some handy tips:

Rules of the Air

[SarDragon]

Or there's this set:

'Basic Flying Rules -
1. Try to stay in the middle of the air.
2. Do not go near the edges of it.
h3. The edges of the air can be recognized by the appearance of ground, buildings, sea, trees and interstellar space. It is much more difficult to fly there.'

[CadetProgramGuy]

Some handy tips:

Rules of the Air

Number 14 doesn't always apply.  Air Force 1 is my example

[maverik]

how so I'm lost on that one.

[sparks]

Good luck with your instructor search. There could be one in your CAP squadron. If not AOPA and other sites have a few tips on finding instructors. Here's one link http://www.aopa.org/learntofly/findcfi/ . I'd also recommend joining AOPA or one of the other aviation organizations like EAA. They have websites with a wealth of information on flying. AOPA has a special section just for student pilots and even has a magazine for students.


Good Hunting

[NC Hokie]

how so I'm lost on that one.

If you're referring to Air Force One and rule #14, I suspect that the answer is related to the fact that an aircraft with the Air Force One (or Marine One, Navy, One, Army One, or Coast Guard One) callsign could take-off or land under a different callsign if the office of POTUS changes hands while in flight.

[CadetProgramGuy]

how so I'm lost on that one.

If you're referring to Air Force One and rule #14, I suspect that the answer is related to the fact that an aircraft with the Air Force One (or Marine One, Navy, One, Army One, or Coast Guard One) callsign could take-off or land under a different callsign if the office of POTUS changes hands while in flight.

Ding, Ding, Ding.......

When Nixon resigned, Pres Ford let him use AF1 to get home.  While in the air Ford took the oath of office and therefore AF1 landed under the callsign of SAM 28000

[RogueLeader]

how so I'm lost on that one.

If you're referring to Air Force One and rule #14, I suspect that the answer is related to the fact that an aircraft with the Air Force One (or Marine One, Navy, One, Army One, or Coast Guard One) callsign could take-off or land under a different callsign if the office of POTUS changes hands while in flight.

[/drift]

[DC]

how so I'm lost on that one.

If you're referring to Air Force One and rule #14, I suspect that the answer is related to the fact that an aircraft with the Air Force One (or Marine One, Navy, One, Army One, or Coast Guard One) callsign could take-off or land under a different callsign if the office of POTUS changes hands while in flight.

Ding, Ding, Ding.......

When Nixon resigned, Pres Ford let him use AF1 to get home.  While in the air Ford took the oath of office and therefore AF1 landed under the callsign of SAM 28000

Yeah, but it was still the same airframe, thus, the rule still applies.

[Flying Pig]

get on www.faasafety.gov and do the FAA WINGS Program.  Your flight training is a good way to get through at least the first level.

[airdale]

Here's another good monthly read:

http://overtheairwaves.com/

Note particularly under "So how do we fix the problem?" this month.

[Mustang]

I was wondering if anybody had any advice

Refuse to fly with instructors who are simply building hours and who have no real flying experience.  For the investment you are making, you do not want to be taught by someone who is one or two pages ahead of you in the book.  Yes, I know these kids have to make a living, but not on your dime.

Find someone who has real flying experience.  A freight dog, someone who flys light singles and twins for a living, someone who flys regularly in IMC to minimums, someone who really knows how the ATC system works from flying in it every day.  Logged time is not enough.  2000 hours of "dual given" is one kind of experience, but it is not the same as 2,000 hours of freight dog or ferry time.  A surprising number of high "dual given" instructors have hardly ever left their home fields, to say nothing of trying to beat a warm front as it moves across the country or routinely dealing with icing situations.  Many CAP-only instructors fall into this latter category simply because of the limitations of CAP flying.

All of this is not to say that experience-limited instructors don't have anything to teach you.  They do.  I have learned some new trick from virtually every instructor I've ever flown with.  But lack of experience limits the breadth of what an instructor has for you.

Precisely why I've held off on getting my CFI tickets previously.  Having just passed 1000 hrs total time, I'm just now getting to the point where I feel I've got something to offer as an instructor.

[airdale]

Having just passed 1000 hrs total time, I'm just now getting to the point where I feel I've got something to offer as an instructor.

My situation almost exactly.  My logbook shows about 1,300 landings at about 70 different airports plus a couple of hundred instrument approaches.  But I've only flown 500 miles away from home about ten times and only about 50 of the approaches have been in IMC.  I've also never had to deal with serious icing or a serious in-flight emergency and I don't have a lot of cross-country night time.  So I still consider myself to be more of a student pilot than an instructor of the caliber I recommended to the OP.

[maverik]

Well what I eventally want to do is get into corporate and charter flying so I figure I would need my Instrument rating and have like 500+ hours?

[DBlair]

After reading over this thread, I just realized that the original post was made by a Cadet. As a result, I have the following suggestions to offer:

Take advantage of the greatly-reduced cost of flying lessons through CAP as a Cadet. Be it with a CAP member who happens to be a CFI or through the various flight activities (flight encampments, etc) that get you to solo- or at least let you rack up a bunch of hours.

I urge you to seek out who in your area might be a CAP CFI. My old unit (back when I was a Cadet) had 3 of them and the only cost involved was for fuel. As a result, my squadron had a variety of Cadet Pilots- a few who later became commercial pilots and a couple who ended up as military fighter pilots.

The opportunities are there to learn to fly in the Cadet program, just seek them out and take advantage of this while you can. This is one of my regrets- although I did log quite a few hours, I didn't fully take advantage of the opportunities available as a Cadet. Now, over a decade later, I'm paying quite a bit more to finish up my license when it could have all been done years ago and at a greatly reduced price. Best of luck to you in your flying endeavors!

[Flying Pig]

SARADDICT

I imagine you are looking into power, but if $$ become an issue, you can get you PPL (And yes, its a REAL Private License) in Gliders.  Thats how I started.  And it was an awesome way to learn how to really fly by the seat of your pants.  You can also get into high performance sailplanes and get into aerobatics for a 10th of what it might cost to just rent a Cessna 172 to go drone around for an hour.

What I tell people, especially cadets, is after you get your license will you or your parents be able to afford to keep you flying?  With some of the soaring clubs where I am, after the initial buy in, which can range from anywhere to $250-$1000 depending on their aircraft, but after that, you can fly all day on $25-$30.  And all the time counts towards you Total Time in powered aircraft and towards your Commercial and CFI also.  You could also get your Commercial and maybe CFI glider for a little more than it might cost you to get your PPL/SEL.  Look into it. 

[maverik]

I definately will that sounds pretty fun actually.

[airdale]

SARADDICT, I was hoping someone who was doing corporate flying would jump in on your question.  Absent that, I will make a couple of comments.

First. Flying Pig is absolutely right on gliders.  In fact, I think the first few hours for a student pilot should be in a glider.  As I understand it, that is how the Air Force Academy does it.  Enough said?

Re corporate flying I think your idea of requirements is quite low.  There is a lot of competition for those jobs.  A 4-year degree in aviation management, north of 1000 hours with lots of multi-engine time are probably more like what is required.  Depending on the economy you can sometimes get a right seat job with a regional carrier with less than this, but you'll have to plan to live in a flophouse and subsist on popcorn and water for your first year due to the slave wages.

pilotsofamerica.com is probably a much better place for you to get advice on this subject.  Also, get a (free) subscription to AOPA Flight Training magazine.  aopa.com.  There are frequent articles there for aspiring professional pilots plus lots of other good information.  After 6 months, you'll have to pony up $39 for an AOPA membership in order to keep getting the magazine, though.

[maverik]

Okay I'm not looking to go airlines but more of a private pilot with a company or like a charter pilot. I've heard of these pilots that like fly security flights but I don't know their official title sounds interesting though.

[CASH172]

Presidential Airways may be one of the company of what you're looking for. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_Airways_(charter)

[flyguy06]

After reading over this thread, I just realized that the original post was made by a Cadet. As a result, I have the following suggestions to offer:

Take advantage of the greatly-reduced cost of flying lessons through CAP as a Cadet. Be it with a CAP member who happens to be a CFI or through the various flight activities (flight encampments, etc) that get you to solo- or at least let you rack up a bunch of hours.

I urge you to seek out who in your area might be a CAP CFI. My old unit (back when I was a Cadet) had 3 of them and the only cost involved was for fuel. As a result, my squadron had a variety of Cadet Pilots- a few who later became commercial pilots and a couple who ended up as military fighter pilots.

The opportunities are there to learn to fly in the Cadet program, just seek them out and take advantage of this while you can. This is one of my regrets- although I did log quite a few hours, I didn't fully take advantage of the opportunities available as a Cadet. Now, over a decade later, I'm paying quite a bit more to finish up my license when it could have all been done years ago and at a greatly reduced price. Best of luck to you in your flying endeavors!

The one problem I have seen with CAP CFI's training cadets is finding one willing to take the cadet all the way through their certificate free of charge. remember, CFI's are professionals, Its a business. Its ok to give a free leson here and there. but an entire course for free? Well, maybe in your area you have that, but I have not seen it in my area.

[maverik]

ctually that presedential Airways is eactly what I was looking for.

[flyguy06]

So, how are the flight lessons going?

[maverik]

good my flight instructor is really nice. As for some of the material most I get some I don't but I'm learning.

[MSgt Van]

If you haven't mastered the landing yet...
When I was in training I thought I'd never get the hang of the final flare/touchdown.  I was getting very frustrated and anxious about landings. Of course my CFI told me that it would come. Bottom line, from the point where I knew I'd never be able to land a darn airplane to being able to set 'er down reliably by myself was only about 1.5 hours of actual instruction.

[DBlair]

After reading over this thread, I just realized that the original post was made by a Cadet. As a result, I have the following suggestions to offer:

Take advantage of the greatly-reduced cost of flying lessons through CAP as a Cadet. Be it with a CAP member who happens to be a CFI or through the various flight activities (flight encampments, etc) that get you to solo- or at least let you rack up a bunch of hours.

I urge you to seek out who in your area might be a CAP CFI. My old unit (back when I was a Cadet) had 3 of them and the only cost involved was for fuel. As a result, my squadron had a variety of Cadet Pilots- a few who later became commercial pilots and a couple who ended up as military fighter pilots.

The opportunities are there to learn to fly in the Cadet program, just seek them out and take advantage of this while you can. This is one of my regrets- although I did log quite a few hours, I didn't fully take advantage of the opportunities available as a Cadet. Now, over a decade later, I'm paying quite a bit more to finish up my license when it could have all been done years ago and at a greatly reduced price. Best of luck to you in your flying endeavors!

The one problem I have seen with CAP CFI's training cadets is finding one willing to take the cadet all the way through their certificate free of charge. remember, CFI's are professionals, Its a business. Its ok to give a free leson here and there. but an entire course for free? Well, maybe in your area you have that, but I have not seen it in my area.

Yea, we used to have this problem as well. While the CFIs in our unit were willing to give plenty of lessons, the Cadets usually had to fly with a few different CFIs in order to finally get their license. It was a complicated and roundabout way, but it was eventually possible to accomplish.

[maverik]

Okay so after some meetings I finally recieved what it'll cost to do this which is:
22 hours of flight instruction in C172     $3300
18 HOURS SOLO IN C172                       $1890
20 HOURS GROUND INSTRUCTION          $900
STUDENT PILOT KIT                                $226
SECTIONAL CHART                                   $7.60
FLIGHT PHYSICAL                                    $90
WRITTEN TEST FEE                                  $90
CHECKRIDE                                              $335
TOTAL                                                       $6,858.60

4 thousand less than I thought I would spend I guess I pay this all up fornt. But I think I will join the Flight club as it is a $50 deposit and $25 dollars a month but saves me $410 dollars on the up front costs.

[CASH172]

It looks like those costs are associated with finishing a license at the bare minimum requirements for flight time.  I'd advise you to be willing to spend a little bit more in case you struggle through a section or go through a learning curve.  Since you're paying up front, this probably isn't up to you, but you might be able to save on the ground instruction if you use home study kits or the internet.  As far as sectionals and charts, you should expect to be spending more than $7.60 for your entire course. 

[airdale]

1) That is not what it will cost.  IIRC the average flight hours to the PPL is more like 60.  Your $10K figure is closer to what you will spend than this figure is.

2) I would absolutely refuse to pay it all up front.  There is no business reason for the school to request that except to make sure they get your money even if flying doesn't work out for you.  It also makes you an unsecured creditor.  If they have business problems you are s.o.l.  It may be possible for you to avoid the unsecured creditor risk by paying with a credit card but personally I would walk away before paying everything up front.  Alternatively, ask them whether they will guarantee your PPL for that price if you pay up front.  Ho, ho, ho, ...

3) If there is even the tiniest question, get your medical before you spend any money.

4) $45/hour for the instructor is high, IMHO.  You better demand an experienced one for that price.  See prior post.  The good news is $105 for a 172 is not a bad rate.

5) You can shave a little bit by buying your student pilot books, etc. on eBay.

6) Cash172 is right about the ground instruction too.  Buy Sporty's or King courses on eBay, sell when you're done with them.   I like faatest.com but there are other online test practice options too.  I'm sure you're bright; if you work hard and maybe buy a few extra (used) books on eBay, you should be able to cut that ground school cost to 1/3 or less.

[flyguy06]

DO NOT pay in full up frontl. It is better to pay as you go. Also, I agree that maybe you should get your medical first tomake sure you are physically fit before you pursue this endeavor.

As far as gorund school is concerned. Some schools go strictly by pt 141 and have a set sylllabus. AT our school, we use Jeppensen. SO you have to have that particular kit.

At any rate. It does cost about $6500-8,000 dollars. Plan on finishing in about 60 hours of flihgt time as well. Good luck to you.