Draft 60-1 out for comment

[RiverAux]

A new draft of 60-1 is out for comment and is available here: http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R060_001_draft_5337BBDFAC91C.pdf

Looks mostly like a lot of procedural changes and I didn't see anything that I'd call a major change. 

I am a little befuddled by the change that would allow those in CAP tow planes to not wear uniforms.  Were the tow pilots mad that they were the only ones at glider activities that had to wear a uniform and look professional? 

[capchiro]

Actually, some of the tow pilots are also glider pilots and they trade positions during the day at encampments and the uniforms are too hot to wear when flying the gliders..  A very reasonable accomodation for our great pilots that work the glider program.. Kudos to National.

[a2capt]

More so, they don't like boots in gliders for a number of reasons, kicking the airframe, busting things inside with rigidness, but also unless you are well trained (accustomed to them), your first flights won't be very good if you can't "feel" the rudder, the feedback from the pedal, etc. Boots do that until you've become well used to having them on. But since there's no real place for them in the aircraft ..

So with the vast differences in uniform options, it was easier to bring the acceptable standards from the glider into the tow plane since there are plenty of times when pilots swap around during the course of an activity. 

[RiverAux]

Okay, that seems reasonable to me.

[Eclipse]

Then there should be an approved and required soaring uniform, not just "don't wear one"...

[AirAux]

Okay, the CAP uniform will be anything that is NOT in CAPM 39-1..  That is actually fairly limiting considering the number of uniforms in CAPM 39-1.  In reality, during an encampment a T-shirt is issued and a hat is issued.  Blue shorts are specified.  Rubber soled athletic shoes are specified, so it seems we have it covered.. Oh, don't forget cool shades and sun block..  That is all..  Carry on..

[a2capt]

The glider attire is left up to the glider units and usually specified as PT, be it BDU pants and t-shirt or shorts.  PT can mean sneakers or such instead of boots. That takes care of that. No other uniforms were harmed in the presentation of this regulation. All similarities are purely coincidental.

[Al Sayre]

I'd recommend our "Southern States Hot weather Flying Uniform"  Khaki Shorts, CAP uniform Polo shirt, sport socks and athletic shoes.  It looks reasonably uniform and professional, and it really helps keep you cool when it's over 90 degrees in the cockpit.  There's more danger from heat exhaustion than fire... JMHO

[DG]

I'd recommend our "Southern States Hot weather Flying Uniform"  Khaki Shorts, CAP uniform Polo shirt, sport socks and athletic shoes.  It looks reasonably uniform and professional, and it really helps keep you cool when it's over 90 degrees in the cockpit.  There's more danger from heat exhaustion than fire... JMHO

We had a chance to do this two years ago.

After it was brought to a vote at the National Board, and after the proposal was defeated, a cheer rang out.

[RiverAux]

Hearing that cheer almost made all the time I've wasted watching NB webstreams worthwhile...

[a2capt]

LOLOL ... Woohoo! You'd think we were those guys flying Mallards from the dock sides.. 

[DG]

Hearing that cheer almost made all the time I've wasted watching NB webstreams worthwhile...

So everyone was giddy and cheerful.  In River City.  When the proposed summer uniform was voted down.

So now (draft new 60-1) tow pilots can wear shorts and t-shirts of their choosing.  With catchy logos and pictures and phrases.  Like "Donde Cervesa?"  And sandals.  And flip flops.  Yipee.

Smart!  (Not)

[RiverAux]

Not an exact parallell there -- gilders fly anywhere in the US while the "summer" proposal was probably never going to be adopted by anyone in the northern US anyway. 

[heliodoc]

Well Well Well

A new "draft" for the 60-1 including 5 paragraphs to delineate the G1000 program, eh?

CAP finally realizing the training from "outside" CAP is finally going to be somewhat recognized?  Maybe the inequities and the lack of training standards is finally hitting home down at Maxwell...you know, sending CFI's down to Independence, KS and some of those "pro CFI's " in CAP coming home with nary a training program (spell NO written training program in my Wing from CFI's receiving the training 4 to 5 yrs ago) and NEVER establishing anything similar to Cessna's.

Hopefully that draft puts some more meat on a REAL training program that many civilian FBO's have.  It truly is amazing that CAP has had 5-6 yrs to figure this out and reallly did nothing til now except put up a 60-1 reflecting some of these issues.

This is where the true 60-1 needs help....not some worries about uniform needs to be worn in a CAP glider....hasn't CAP had a glider program for at least 10 to 15 yrs now and now are just coming to the point of 60-1ing a uniform?

WOW  CAP IS behind even in addressing uniform for a glider....takes that much energy at a NB meeting to address this?

That is a TRUE waste of time!

[tdepp]

Wow.  It always comes back to uniforms, no matter what the issue, doesn't it?  Astounding.

FWIW, the cheapo blue coveralls/flight suit we fatties have to wear (if we can't afford or don't want to buy the nice Nomex blue flight suit version) is basically like wearing blue colored nothing.  No possible way you could be hot in it.  Even when it's warm, I wear plenty underneath it.    Just a thought.

The USCG and USCGAux do have a tropical undress uniform shorts version (I may have the name wrong).  We could adopt some version of that (with USAF approval).  But of course we would also need a Corporate Bermuda Shorts Undress version for us fatsos who exceed the CAP weight limits. 

On the other hand, just move along.  Nothing to see here.  Everything I've heard about the glider flights has been positive and an awesome experience for the Cadets.  I'm jealous and would love to take a soaring flight.  And I would even be properly dressed for it.  I'm thinking Mess Dress Uniform? 

[Eclipse]

Wow.  It always comes back to uniforms, no matter what the issue, doesn't it?  Astounding.

Sadly, yes - not because its that important, but because these baseline decisions aren't made and closed with a period the way they should be.  Its also because most of the challenges surrounding uniforms are generated by either the 1%'ers who can't be bothered to wear one or wear it correctly, or who want to be hardkewl and do something a little "different" (whether its a beret or a patch in a different place).  Any wonder why many of the activities which generate dissension are tied to these "differences"?

In the case of the glider uniform, unless you're flying "au naturel", if you're in your own glider you're likely in shorts and a t-shirt or golf shirt, so its not unreasonable when CAP lets you fly our (in many cases) new, fancy gliders, and get tows for cheap / free, that your clothing identifies you as a member of the organization.

[tdepp]

Well Well Well

A new "draft" for the 60-1 including 5 paragraphs to delineate the G1000 program, eh?

CAP finally realizing the training from "outside" CAP is finally going to be somewhat recognized?  Maybe the inequities and the lack of training standards is finally hitting home down at Maxwell...you know, sending CFI's down to Independence, KS and some of those "pro CFI's " in CAP coming home with nary a training program (spell NO written training program in my Wing from CFI's receiving the training 4 to 5 yrs ago) and NEVER establishing anything similar to Cessna's.

Hopefully that draft puts some more meat on a REAL training program that many civilian FBO's have.  It truly is amazing that CAP has had 5-6 yrs to figure this out and reallly did nothing til now except put up a 60-1 reflecting some of these issues.

This is where the true 60-1 needs help....not some worries about uniform needs to be worn in a CAP glider....hasn't CAP had a glider program for at least 10 to 15 yrs now and now are just coming to the point of 60-1ing a uniform?

WOW  CAP IS behind even in addressing uniform for a glider....takes that much energy at a NB meeting to address this?

That is a TRUE waste of time!

I'm not a pilot but I play one on TV.    I'm an MS and an MO trainee and I've taken one of the G1000 classes offered by the SDWG.  I probably didn't understand 80% as a non-pilot* but it was, I thought, an excellent course with good materials, a great powerpoint, and our instructor was a SDWG MP who had attended the Cessna school in Kansas.  He was knowledgeable both from a practical and theoretical standpoint.  The pilots then had another day where they had hands on.  So, at least in SD, it's my observation that the "train the trainers" has worked just fine.

On the other hand, I'd defer to the pilots as to what they think is the best way of doing this training. 

The only complaint I hear from our SDWG pilots (MP and otherwise) is that they'd like to see the training happen more often so it is more convenient for more pilots, not that there was any deficiency in the presentation.

*And I'll probably take the course again, now that I've actually flown missions as an MS and will have to understand a big chunk of the right side of the glass cockpit to eventually get my MO rating.  It will make more sense.  Believe me, I have the utmost respect for the brains (and good judgment) a pilot has to have and all the information they need to master to be safe and proficient.  Yeah, I have a man crush. . .   :angel:

[mynetdude]

Wow.  It always comes back to uniforms, no matter what the issue, doesn't it?  Astounding.

FWIW, the cheapo blue coveralls/flight suit we fatties have to wear (if we can't afford or don't want to buy the nice Nomex blue flight suit version) is basically like wearing blue colored nothing.  No possible way you could be hot in it.  Even when it's warm, I wear plenty underneath it.    Just a thought.

The USCG and USCGAux do have a tropical undress uniform shorts version (I may have the name wrong).  We could adopt some version of that (with USAF approval).  But of course we would also need a Corporate Bermuda Shorts Undress version for us fatsos who exceed the CAP weight limits. 

On the other hand, just move along.  Nothing to see here.  Everything I've heard about the glider flights has been positive and an awesome experience for the Cadets.  I'm jealous and would love to take a soaring flight.  And I would even be properly dressed for it.  I'm thinking Mess Dress Uniform? 

Was told SMs can ride in the glider, not free though.

[DG]

Not an exact parallell there -- gilders fly anywhere in the US while the "summer" proposal was probably never going to be adopted by anyone in the northern US anyway.

Huh?

And your comment makes sense how?

If you think it does not get hot in the summer in Wings in the northern US, you seriously need to get out more.

I flew a 3 hour mission yesterday, and even with serious rehydrating, the mission aircrew in nomex flight suits had to call it off to avoid heat exhaustion.

And today is even hotter, with higher humidity.

So are you saying "We who do not fly in those states conclude that it is not needed or likely to be adopted in the northern US."  So let's vote it down.  And then cheer.

Not needed or likely to be adopted in the northern US?   

Why do you think NESA MAS has a special activity uniform incorporating shorts and activity t-shirt?  Try flying low and slow all day in the heat and humidity over Indiana corn fields.

I guess next you will claim Indiana is a southern state.  It is no different in Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey.  I will pass this along to all my air crews here.  They will be surprised to hear they must be in the south, because they want not to deal with heat exhaustion in the summer.

And then I will refer them to CAPTalk to learn that we were saved from the embarrassment that would have come from wearing shorts and golf shirt in the winter time.  The CAP guys who voted against the new summer uniform, and then cheered, wanted to protect us from any such embarrassment.  They were very thoughtful that way, looking out for our best interests, looking out for others.  Looking out for their colleagues.

And if you still want to be foolish, and wear a summer uniform, that was rejected at the summer Board two years ago, now go out and tow and wear whatever you want.

And to you in Wings in the southern US, because it is not likely to be adopted by those in the northern US, we must vote it down, and then cheer.

[Eclipse]

Every SAR agency and similar that I have ever worked with / seen on TV, etc., has a summer variant that includes shorts - including PD and FD.

The outcry against common sense that took place in relation to a summer uniform just makes no sense at all.

[DG]

Was told SMs can ride in the glider, not free though.

In PA, the powered tows are $18.

And the flight instruction is given at no charge.

A glider flight is exciting and not to be missed.  From the formation flying 200 feet behind the tow plane on a rope.  To the freedom and quiet of the cruise flight, looking for thermals and lift.  To the finesses and precision of the final approach and landing.

A glider flight is exciting and not to be missed.

[RiverAux]

DG, don't blame me for reporting on what the NB did in regards to a CAP uniform with shorts.  In fact, there were several Wing Commanders from southern border states that got up and said that there was absolutely no need for such a thing even in their areas.

And if your crews are too hot in NOMEX, they have every right under the current regs to wear an all-cotton, short sleeve shirt golf shirt uniform.  Although if they're in one of the few places where CAP has decided to require NOMEX, they're going to be out of luck, but blame the appropriate commander for that decision. 

[Mustang]

CAP finally realizing the training from "outside" CAP is finally going to be somewhat recognized? 

It's a first step in the right direction.  Note, however, that it's subject to the discretion of the wing DOV as to what credit for training will be granted, if any.  Moreover, this only applies to the G1000 pilot qual; experienced CFIs with hundreds of hours of G1000 dual-given will still be required to complete the Cessna Instructor FITS syllabus in order to attain instructor "privileges" in G1000-equipped aircraft.   

[heliodoc]

^^^

Sure its the discretion of the Wing DOV...but that can be challenged if the Wing DOV does not place an emphasis OR does hold much in the  way of a CFI.

Understandably the Cessna Instructor FITS syllabus maybe proprietary such as the "vanguard" issues but with all those instructors and all the bragging CAP has done about the G1000, there ought to be some accountability and "CAP performance" standards as to the CFI's that got the free ride at Independence, KS and have NOT produced any sort of training program.  The accountability ought to be the SAME as the FAA CFI certificate or something similar to hold those individuals that did not produce a program and that some of those in the GOB network, who found a way not to produce any sort of program, to start teaching.  So what if they got a CFI?  CAP hold those folks in higher esteem than the other pilots in the organization.

The civilians (FBO's) have had to operate and teach, and yes, for a profit.  CAP, ought to require and hold a higher standard, like they try to preach.  I haven't totally bought that glass of Kool Aid.  For lack of better terms, CAP has a shoestring program for this advanced technology and it shows on the NHQ CAP Stan Eval website.....nothing notable or new.  Nothing.  I bought my own stuff from Cessna for 200.00 dinero and am self teaching myself this thing...'cuz the folks in my current Wing have not taken this seriously enough for those who did attend the factory program.

With the recent NTSB report indicating that glass (currently) is no safer than round dial.......puts CAP in very precarious position of being an authority in this arena without a REAL standardized program and a 60-1 band aid is no cure for this program.   But this is CAP, and CAPTalkers will see this as sour grapes rather than the true need for the above!!!!

[mynetdude]

Was told SMs can ride in the glider, not free though.

In PA, the powered tows are $18.

And the flight instruction is given at no charge.

A glider flight is exciting and not to be missed.  From the formation flying 200 feet behind the tow plane on a rope.  To the freedom and quiet of the cruise flight, looking for thermals and lift.  To the finesses and precision of the final approach and landing.

A glider flight is exciting and not to be missed.

not sure what WAWG charges, but ORWG when they had gliders charged $30, I've never been in a glider.  I take it the ride is fairly quiet?

[a2capt]

It's actually not .. that quiet.

Just not *that* kind of noise.

The nearby glider unit charges a buck for every hundred feet of altitude. Thats their quoting method. Basically, it's about $30/tow.

[mynetdude]

It's actually not .. that quiet.

Just not *that* kind of noise.

The nearby glider unit charges a buck for every hundred feet of altitude. Thats their quoting method. Basically, it's about $30/tow.

seems we keep weaving in and out of topic here

The funds doesn't seem like much but is this a wing levied fee or is it a fee that only goes to the unit for towing?

$30=3,000ft what's the maximum altitude for a glider? I would guess not more than 5,000ft?

[a2capt]

The tow plane .. uses gas.. builds tach time...

http://skyvector.com/?ll=33.790032194,-118.051429194&chart=114&zoom=3

The altitude here is about that, max, OTOH- there are not limits other than in theory, where you can go VFR, and be free of complex airspace. A glider has the right of way over powered aircraft, but not over an airship. But right of way isn't always a smart thing to push ..

So thats the limitation that gliders have to work with, within CAPR 60-1. Seems they didn't change much else in that relation.

[mynetdude]

The tow plane .. uses gas.. builds tach time...

http://skyvector.com/?ll=33.790032194,-118.051429194&chart=114&zoom=3

The altitude here is about that, max, OTOH- there are not limits other than in theory, where you can go VFR, and be free of complex airspace. A glider has the right of way over powered aircraft, but not over an airship. But right of way isn't always a smart thing to push ..

So thats the limitation that gliders have to work with, within CAPR 60-1. Seems they didn't change much else in that relation.

I know the tow plane uses gas/tach time just seems odd different wings/units charge different rates as if its enough to cover the fuel for the departure tow and return of the powered aircraft.

In complex airspace I understand there would be immense restrictions to a glider so perhaps its not a good idea to glide in a restrictive area although it could be done I suppose.

Makes sense for glider right of ways, as far as airship are you referring to such as a dirigible or blimp? Here's the other odd thing totally unrelated but relates to right of ways...

Ultralight aircraft do not have right of ways over powered aircraft on the ground nor in the air AFAIK and I would guess gliders still have the right of way over an ultralight since the ultralight is considered a powered vehicle/aircraft.

[davidsinn]

The tow plane .. uses gas.. builds tach time...

http://skyvector.com/?ll=33.790032194,-118.051429194&chart=114&zoom=3

The altitude here is about that, max, OTOH- there are not limits other than in theory, where you can go VFR, and be free of complex airspace. A glider has the right of way over powered aircraft, but not over an airship. But right of way isn't always a smart thing to push ..

So thats the limitation that gliders have to work with, within CAPR 60-1. Seems they didn't change much else in that relation.

I know the tow plane uses gas/tach time just seems odd different wings/units charge different rates as if its enough to cover the fuel for the departure tow and return of the powered aircraft.

In complex airspace I understand there would be immense restrictions to a glider so perhaps its not a good idea to glide in a restrictive area although it could be done I suppose.

Makes sense for glider right of ways, as far as airship are you referring to such as a dirigible or blimp? Here's the other odd thing totally unrelated but relates to right of ways...

Ultralight aircraft do not have right of ways over powered aircraft on the ground nor in the air AFAIK and I would guess gliders still have the right of way over an ultralight since the ultralight is considered a powered vehicle/aircraft.

Here in INWG we have three tow ships for one glider. At least one 172 and one 182, I'm not sure what the other is. I know they also use a truck and "kite" the glider to altitude which is far cheaper. That might explain the difference.

[mynetdude]

The tow plane .. uses gas.. builds tach time...

http://skyvector.com/?ll=33.790032194,-118.051429194&chart=114&zoom=3

The altitude here is about that, max, OTOH- there are not limits other than in theory, where you can go VFR, and be free of complex airspace. A glider has the right of way over powered aircraft, but not over an airship. But right of way isn't always a smart thing to push ..

So thats the limitation that gliders have to work with, within CAPR 60-1. Seems they didn't change much else in that relation.

I know the tow plane uses gas/tach time just seems odd different wings/units charge different rates as if its enough to cover the fuel for the departure tow and return of the powered aircraft.

In complex airspace I understand there would be immense restrictions to a glider so perhaps its not a good idea to glide in a restrictive area although it could be done I suppose.

Makes sense for glider right of ways, as far as airship are you referring to such as a dirigible or blimp? Here's the other odd thing totally unrelated but relates to right of ways...

Ultralight aircraft do not have right of ways over powered aircraft on the ground nor in the air AFAIK and I would guess gliders still have the right of way over an ultralight since the ultralight is considered a powered vehicle/aircraft.

Here in INWG we have three tow ships for one glider. At least one 172 and one 182, I'm not sure what the other is. I know they also use a truck and "kite" the glider to altitude which is far cheaper. That might explain the difference.

Interesting, didn't know a truck could be used, that makes a lot more sense unless they are giving powered orides at the same time as glider orides assuming that is permitted.

[SarDragon]

Nope. No pax allowed in the tow plane, except tow pilot trainees.

[a2capt]

..and CAWG's glider attire:


1-5.d Added. Special Uniform for Sailplane Operations. Members may wear a CAP distinctive shirt (Squadron shirt, activity shirt, or any approved knit golf shirt) with dark blue or khaki shorts (hemmed) or BDU pants and tennis shoes while participating in sailplane operations.

Heh, o-rides with the tow plane .. after it cuts off the glider, now that would be kinda .. weird.


No, they don't do that. They (used) to take people in the tow plane to show them it from that side of the operation, what the glider does the tow plane, etc.


I also can't recall ever reading, or observing that the only passengers in the two plane would be a tow pilot in training, or similar operations.


I have observed other glider pilots, cadets, seniors, etc- each getting a glider flight and then a tow plane ride before or after. Mostly for demonstration purposes of what the glider does to the tow plane, and if you're receiving glider training, what the tow plane feels when you do "that" in the glider, in which the tow plane is usually communicating with the glider asking them to do certain moves.

[FastAttack]

A glider has the right of way over powered aircraft, but not over an airship.

Incorrect:

Sec. 91.113 - Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.

(2) A glider has the right-of-way over an airship, airplane, or rotorcraft;

[mynetdude]

A glider has the right of way over powered aircraft, but not over an airship.

Incorrect:

Sec. 91.113 - Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.

(2) A glider has the right-of-way over an airship, airplane, or rotorcraft;

wonder how an airship is going to give a glider/sailplane the right of way when it moves like molasses.

[SarDragon]

An airship has the ability to gain altitude at will, and you can't stall it.

[a2capt]

(2) A glider has the right-of-way over an airship, airplane, or rotorcraft;

d'oh, I meant "Balloon" which is (1) of 91.113, as you probably saw.  Thought one thing, typed the other.

Airships are powered, balloons are drift.  An airship can get out of the way, and as noted, can't be stalled. Neither can the balloon.

Now, for arguments sake, I certainly can't believe that a glider couldn't maneuver quicker, change course, whatever, than an airship. A balloon, sure. Fire! and it just goes up.  Unless the glider is climbing, this isn't a problem.  But an evasive maneuver could upset the glider and stall/spin it. So.. 

[mynetdude]

(2) A glider has the right-of-way over an airship, airplane, or rotorcraft;

d'oh, I meant "Balloon" which is (1) of 91.113, as you probably saw.  Thought one thing, typed the other.

Airships are powered, balloons are drift.  An airship can get out of the way, and as noted, can't be stalled. Neither can the balloon.

Now, for arguments sake, I certainly can't believe that a glider couldn't maneuver quicker, change course, whatever, than an airship. A balloon, sure. Fire! and it just goes up.  Unless the glider is climbing, this isn't a problem.  But an evasive maneuver could upset the glider and stall/spin it. So..

lol man I keep forgetting that balloons and blimps and such can't stall (they can FALL though! oi don't it ryme?)

Anyway, so it seems uniform requirements vary for riding in the glider looking forward to seeing our cadets and myself go on the glider hopefully.

[sdcapmx]

Ok, I think we have beat up the glider stuff and uniforms.  How about a few other changes to discuss.

1.  Now requires a CAPF 5 check ride with instrument privileges granted be done by a CFII.  This is not an IPC which requires a CFII.  Even a CFI is allowed to give instrument instruction to a student pilot.

2.  Requires a region DOV  to give all wing DOVs a CAPF 5 annually.  Who pays?  Where is it accomplished? 

[heliodoc]

I agree sdcapmx

There are some other very important things like what you mention such as the "CAPF 5" inst privileges... an IPC ought to meet the requirements when given by the CFII in CAP.  But there is alot of questions needing answers such as who pays and more importantly...is this a second change in 6 months?  Is this more knee jerk reaction?  How is all these new "initiatives" in 60-1 going to contribute to the pilot proficiency program?  What is wrong with the current FAA PTS standards?

The 60-1 G1000 program needs a very serious training overhaul....does th SD Wing  have a good syllabi to go by for this ship?

The uniform issues can be meted out, elsewhere in threads....like the uniform threads

More important stuff like...what I heard this weekend so far.....more Wings worried about utilization rates.   Pretty obvious this week...a gallon of 100LL jumped from approx 3.89 to approx 4.15 a gallon and the airframe price for CAP went up a couple of bucks...

The other obvious fact......there IS a number of pilots unemployed. Whether they are airline drivers or not.... some of CAP's pilots come from those trenches as well as some from other professions that have suffered many a layoff.  I am sure there are CAPTalkers that will debate this til the bitter end and say CAP is low price....but its the economy, stupid could be relevant answer

Yep it's a privilege to fly CAP aircraft, but it also a privilege to fly anyone else's aircraft.  CAP can keep adding more and more to the 60-1 plate to the point that an FBO to the tune of 145/ hr STILL looks good and one can still remain current.

How's about that old CAP Pilot Continuation Training program going??  Found an old copy of that at the Sqdn this week and was wondering where allllllll those other volumes were and why is this not on the NHQ Stan Eval website.   I think the whole training program needs a cleaning before CAP needs 34 more drafts to 60-1.  Just loading up "NEW" drafts isn't going to make the program any more effective unless there is some REAL training material come out of NHQ-CAP.

[bosshawk]

Looks like this discussion is now moot: the new, updated 60-1 with changes, was approved and published yesterday.  Now, back to uniform discussions.

[ßτε]

Looks like this discussion is now moot: the new, updated 60-1 with changes, was approved and published yesterday.  Now, back to uniform discussions.

What was posted yesterday was just Change 2. It was not the update that is currently up for comment. The change appears to deal with eFlight Release.