Level 4 Leadership requirement question

[sogden]

Every system can be cheated. sitting face to face can end with someone skirting through and not answering a single question. And, all the materials can be downloaded straight from the NHQ website. It isn't perfect, but it sure does allow for those that can't take traditional classroom instruction to move forward with their PD.

That being said, the online course can be set any way the instructor wants. It can be set up where they have to answer before reading the other responses.

I know from taking Col Skrabut's course that he doesn't allow those individuals that copy and paste to get credit for the course. He monitors it pretty closely.

[tonyairplane]

... It simply states how long the courses are required to be to meet the requirement of being on the approved list...

No it doesn't say that.  Hence, this discussion topic.  It says that the classes must have 12 hours of contact time, not any overall length. Your classes as you described them do not meet this, no matter how rigorous. If you have given your online facilitators credit for that, they need to have their Level IV credit revoked, because you have clearly violated the regulation.  It doesn't matter how tough on the students you and your Colonel think you are, or how hard your class is, if it doesn't have 12 hours of contact time, it doesn't count toward Level IV credit. 40 hours of online time and 11 hours of contact time don't count, nor any other combination if the contact time is under 12 hours. As the reg is now, that is.  Hopefully National sees fit to change or clarify in light of modern instruction methods.
But for now, we are stuck with the 12 hour contact requirement.

[EMT-83]

^ Stop beating around the bush. How do you really feel about this?

[JeffDG]

If you have given your online facilitators credit for that, they need to have their Level IV credit revoked, because you have clearly violated the regulation. 

That's a pretty serious charge.

Can you back it up with a definition of "contact time"?

[sogden]

... It simply states how long the courses are required to be to meet the requirement of being on the approved list...

No it doesn't say that.  Hence, this discussion topic.  It says that the classes must have 12 hours of contact time, not any overall length. Your classes as you described them do not meet this, no matter how rigorous. If you have given your online facilitators credit for that, they need to have their Level IV credit revoked, because you have clearly violated the regulation.  It doesn't matter how tough on the students you and your Colonel think you are, or how hard your class is, if it doesn't have 12 hours of contact time, it doesn't count toward Level IV credit. 40 hours of online time and 11 hours of contact time don't count, nor any other combination if the contact time is under 12 hours. As the reg is now, that is.  Hopefully National sees fit to change or clarify in light of modern instruction methods.
But for now, we are stuck with the 12 hour contact requirement.

Actually I'm not wrong, nor is National. Given Merriam-Webster's definition of Contact, You will see that "An occurrence in which people communicate with each other" by definition does credit the online programs as meeting the requirements.

Why does one have to be in the same physical proximity of someone to constitute receiving credit? How does sitting in the same room mean two people are actively participating and learning material more than 2 people reading, responding and commenting in an online environment(where participation can actually be tracked)?

"1con·tact noun \ˈkän-ˌtakt\
: the state or condition that exists when two people or things physically touch each other : a state of touching

: the state or condition that exists when people see and communicate with each other

: an occurrence in which people communicate with each other

Full Definition of CONTACT

1
a :  union or junction of surfaces
b :  the apparent touching or mutual tangency of the limbs of two celestial bodies or of the disk of one body with the shadow of another during an eclipse, transit, or occultation
c (1) :  the junction of two electrical conductors through which a current passes (2) :  a special part made for such a junction
2
a :  association, relationship
b :  connection, communication
c :  an establishing of communication with someone or an observing or receiving of a significant signal from a person or object <radar contact with Mars>
3
:  a person serving as a go-between, messenger, connection, or source of special information <business contacts>
4
:  contact lens

[Walkman]

...It says that the classes must have 12 hours of contact time, not any overall length. Your classes as you described them do not meet this, no matter how rigorous. If you have given your online facilitators credit for that, they need to have their Level IV credit revoked, because you have clearly violated the regulation.

Considering that NHQ reviewed and approved these courses, I don't think you can make that kind of bold claim. NHQ sets the standards, not us. If they approve this as "contact hours" then that's what counts. We can all have our opinions about what counts as "contact hours", but the plain and simple truth is that if it's approved at the top, they are just opinions, not fact.

One of my staff took Col. Skrabuts online CLC and reported it was a very good experience.

Regarding comparing CAP courses to university credits: My mother is a tenured professor and the department director at a state university that offers both undergrad and graduate level courses. Some classes on both levels are offered online and those classes have no in-person time at all. My wife is also enrolled in some online university classes.

I have observed with both my mother's and my wife's experience is that these classes require much more actual participation between the students and the instructor than what you would find in an in-person class. For example, in one class, there would be a reading assignment, then each student must post a 200-300 word response to the reading as well as having to write a 200-300 word reply to three other students postings. Aside from teaching in CAP, Scouts, Church and numerous other "non-academic" situations, I was a collegiate adjunct professor for five years. I can tell you there was many students in each class session that were able to pass the class because they finished assignments and passed the exams, but never spoke in class, asked a question, or responded to a discussion. As a CDI, do I not give credit to the cadets in my CharDev sessions that are shy or new that don't speak up?

Look at the robust and lengthy discussions we have here in CAPTalk. I would say that aside from arguing about getting ABUs, there is a respectable amount of interaction, learning and debate going on that is worthwhile. Online interactions are different than in person, but that doesn't mean they are invalid. Just because it doesn't look like what has been in the past doesn't mean it isn't effective.

That being said, I don't like taking online classes, personally. I'm an extrovert and prefer to be in a classroom setting. But I've seen people that can thrive and be successful in the online environment, so  more power to 'em.

[sogden]

Look at the robust and lengthy discussions we have here in CAPTalk. I would say that aside from arguing about getting ABUs, there is a respectable amount of interaction, learning and debate going on that is worthwhile. Online interactions are different than in person, but that doesn't mean they are invalid. Just because it doesn't look like what has been in the past doesn't mean it isn't effective.

Very well said.

[tonyairplane]

First, I didn't say that National was wrong.  I said that you were wrong and those that got credit for four hour contact time courses need to have it revoked, or else, many of us need to get credit for what we have done or will do in the same light.  National needs to make that decision, not some officer in a Mega-Wing, whatever that is.  As far as I know, that colonel sits at the same table as the CC of the smallest Wing, and neither has more decision making clout or ability to change regs than the other.

If your interpretation of contact time was true, which many of us wish it was, then moderating fully online interactive courses would count toward this requirement, and we wouldn't even need the four (or however many) hour in-person capstone.  Which would be great.  But it isn't so, at least not until clarification of the reg.

[tonyairplane]

Considering that NHQ reviewed and approved these courses, I don't think you can make that kind of bold claim. NHQ sets the standards, not us. If they approve this as "contact hours" then that's what counts. We can all have our opinions about what counts as "contact hours", but the plain and simple truth is that if it's approved at the top, they are just opinions, not fact.

If they approved them as far as instructor contact time, then fine, they count toward Level IV instructor credit and the discussion is over.

Let's see it in writing from National.  Please post if for us all to use as a reference.

More likely and based on what was posted, they were approved as course credit toward CLS or SLS for the students.  Which is of course completely different.

[a2capt]

Again, if NHQ reviewed the content, the curriculum and the method of conducting the class, and blessed it as "yup, this fulfills our definition", then take it up with NHQ. The course creators are not wrong in any way.

If you don't like it, use that "Ask the Commander" link, ask them. You, and your entire chain of commanders will get the answer. 

I will say that an online class, using the things we have access to that we did not 10-15 years ago, and 30 years ago the whole concept would have been a day dream, right up there with Shoe Phones and Communicators.

But contact time is interaction, contact time is thinking, contact time is exchange. The connection method matters not. Many good things have come from all ways of connecting. Many bad things, too. When you put people who don't agree in connection with each other, they'll snivel back and forth not matter the medium.

I've participated in a few online classes, both as an instructor, and captive student. Though admittedly, more so in the method that online presence was an extension to the students. Did I make friends and connections the same way? Perhaps yes, perhaps no. That's an answer I'll never know fully. I can only be in one place at a time. The exact experiences will never be recreated if I were to go back.

However, ideas, concepts, thoughts were exchanged, and the objective was completed.

When an online class is properly setup, PDFs are provided along side, or in place of any physical papers handed out to those present. You're free to create some negative ions burn your very own copy, or you can open them on a second monitor and scroll through them. Either way works.

Yes, I still put on a uniform, sat there and participated, went out for meals/breaks, though my "commute" at that point was to my kitchen and back.

Both when I've staffed these classes, and when I've attended, I've attended the entire session, as a student would, except when it was my turn to instruct, I took over control of the console.  Would being there be better? Most likely, yes. But, it is what it is. We have the ability to offer the material to a greater audience now, using the tools that modern advances have brought us, and that also means we have the ability to offer more classes, and bring in views other than the same old local ones, though in our case, it's more like we have the ability to get it done, period. Because we may not be able to find an instructor locally, but we can find someone who can do it, just not on site.

So why not take advantage of all that, and build on it, instead of shoot it down and crumble it?

In closing, clarification of the regulation has already been done. NHQ, the approving authority, has allowed these alternate methods to go through.

[Spaceman3750]

Which is of course completely different.

Not really. If NHQ approved the course, then it must have 12 contact hours with instructors. If students have 12 contact hours with instructors, then the instructors must have 12 contact hours with students. Therefore, the instructor has completed the requirement.

[lordmonar]

SLS and CLC are on the list......so it does not matter what the contact time (how ever you define it) of those courses actually have.

[sogden]

First, I didn't say that National was wrong.  I said that you were wrong and those that got credit for four hour contact time courses need to have it revoked, or else, many of us need to get credit for what we have done or will do in the same light.  National needs to make that decision, not some officer in a Mega-Wing, whatever that is.  As far as I know, that colonel sits at the same table as the CC of the smallest Wing, and neither has more decision making clout or ability to change regs than the other.

If your interpretation of contact time was true, which many of us wish it was, then moderating fully online interactive courses would count toward this requirement, and we wouldn't even need the four (or however many) hour in-person capstone.  Which would be great.  But it isn't so, at least not until clarification of the reg.

If by any means my involvement or mention of being apart of a Mega Wing seemed off-putting or offensive to you, then I apologize. It was not meant as a "higher-than-thou" statement. I started in Utah, one of the smaller wings. I learned as much there as I have in Texas. I am by no means putting down their abilities or their needs for accomplishments. I mentioned that because with our size, we need alternative methods of instruction just due to proximity. I run my minimum required by regs every year, striving to reach that requirement for each group in our Wing. Even with 7 each year, it still isn't enough. And my Col is not any better than anyone else's (well I might be partial and think she is, but that isn't the point). NHQ approved our course. And our course is the SLS, which fulfills the instructor requirements of CAPR 50-17.

[tonyairplane]

"In closing, clarification of the regulation has already been done. NHQ, the approving authority, has allowed these alternate methods to go through."

They approved the course for the students as SLS or CLC.  If they approved it for instructor credit for Level IV, please post that so we can all reference it.

Please don't get me wrong - I am all for it and hope it is approved.

[Storm Chaser]

I, for one, would like clarification on this as I received an e-mail from wing PD that led me to believe they were not giving credit for instructor time at these SLS and CLC capstones, but that there were other ways to receive such credit as listed on the regulation.

[sogden]

I, for one, would like clarification on this as I received an e-mail from wing PD that led me to believe they were not giving credit for instructor time at these SLS and CLC capstones, but that there were other ways to receive such credit as listed on the regulation.

Here is your clarification, and I quote... emailed 4/24 at 10:55am

"Sure they can receive credit for instructing."

BOBBIE-JEAN TOURVILLE
Chief, Professional Development
NHQ Civil Air Patrol

Straight form NHQ PD directly. I'm happy to forward the message to anyone that needs to take it to their Wing PD.

[tonyairplane]

That is great!  Thank you.

I wonder why they aren't distributing that to all of the Wing PDOs, so that they are all playing off of the same sheet of music?

[sogden]

I honestly never thought it was an issue tonyairplane until you brought it up. Most of us were working with the thought process that if it was listed on Attachment 3 and was approved by NHQ, then it was sufficient.

Is your Wing DPD not allowing credit for the online courses?

[AlphaSigOU]

And as the DPD for Alabama Wing, I'm good with that.