Uniform changes

[Shuman 14]

Looking over my promotions in the Air Force (I came in as an E-5 due to prior service in the Army), every single promotion up through CMSgt was done in ABU/OCPs.

Fun fact: since we are required to maintain a full set of serviceable blues, we have our annual blues inspection every December during our drill weekend. However, as a unit fundraiser, I created "buy your way out of blues" since 2018. You have two options, wear your service dress or BRING your service dress on a hanger and donate $20 to the squadron's emergency relief and retirement gift fund.

I ALWAYS wear my blues that day because some airmen do, but 90% do opt to carry their blues in for the "inspection."

Chief I LOVE the way your mind works, I now have a new plan for DEC2024's Battle Training assembly. 

[blackrain]

For what it's worth, I have worn my service dress more times as a CAP wing commander (I have 120 days left) than in 10 years in the Army/Army Guard and 20 years in the Air National Guard, including 17 1/2 years of active duty service.

I do not enjoy wearing the service dress, it's too stuffy.  I prefer the pre-McPeak style service dress (polyesters) and didn't have a problem wearing those.

In CAP we wear blues at events the modern day Air Force doesn't. In the past 10 years I've been to dozens of Air Force conferences hosted by MAJCOMs and/or career field specific. Never once have I worn blues. All have been in ABU/OCP (or flights suits for flyers).

Speaks volumes. It's also a pain when you get the odd squadron commander who feels the need to make Class B or equivalent the UOD monthly for squadron meetings. If CAP truly tried to really enforce a policy like this Wing/Nationwide I wonder what the affect would be on membership.

Actually, those who don't have maintain any pilot quals seems to be a little more uniform obsessed now that I think about it. Planes tend to keep pilots' feeble minds occupied.

I'm also thinking of making a nice year end donation (certainly more than $20 dollars) to the squadron on the condition I never have to hear mention of the "Class B or equivalent" printed or spoken again.

[PHall]

For what it's worth, I have worn my service dress more times as a CAP wing commander (I have 120 days left) than in 10 years in the Army/Army Guard and 20 years in the Air National Guard, including 17 1/2 years of active duty service.

I do not enjoy wearing the service dress, it's too stuffy.  I prefer the pre-McPeak style service dress (polyesters) and didn't have a problem wearing those.

In CAP we wear blues at events the modern day Air Force doesn't. In the past 10 years I've been to dozens of Air Force conferences hosted by MAJCOMs and/or career field specific. Never once have I worn blues. All have been in ABU/OCP (or flights suits for flyers).

The wear of ABU/OCP/Flight Suit for everything thing came along right after 9-11 happened. It was "supposed" to show support for the troops in the field. It seems to have become the norm today.
CAP's wear of the Class A and B uniforms pretty much reflects what the military did before 9-11.

[Eclipse]

"Class B or equivalent"

"Class B or equivalent" is the uniform required to be owned by all members, why wouldn't they
be wearing on the reg?

[Eclipse]

CAP's wear of the Class A and B uniforms basically everything pretty much reflects what the military did before 9-11.

FTFY.

[PHall]

CAP's wear of the Class A and B uniforms basically everything pretty much reflects what the military did before 9-11.

FTFY.


Please look in a currant CAPR 39-1 before you try to fix that for me.
Para 4.1.5 and 4.1.11

[blackrain]

"Class B or equivalent"

"Class B or equivalent" is the uniform required to be owned by all members, why wouldn't they
be wearing on the reg?

Based on what I know of units/members around the country it's not enforced 90 plus percent of the time. If it were that important then CAP would or should be doing a better job enforcing the reg. across the board. I wouldn't be surprised if whomever wrote the reg was someone lacking in real world military experience. Or maybe like the SGM in Kuwait who complained about the small red button light clipped to our uniform used frequently on our patrols. Of course, he never left the DFAC in Kuwait. Made walking in the unlit areas a lot safer for sure. There are more than a few regs that are brought to CAP/military courtesy of the good idea fairy. I actually spoke to an active-duty O-5 a few days ago who happens to be in CAP and he asked why these few people get so hung up on the Class B issue. Not very practical and as a pilot I spend a fair amount in the hanger both during meetings and outside of meetings for that matter and I've had clothes ruined by the many things found there. White shirts don't do well in that environment.

Maybe your time in the military was different? I'd love to hear about it.

[Shawn Stanford]

Maybe your time in the military was different? I'd love to hear about it.

It was.

I was a AD Marine in the 80s working in IT. Stateside we wore Chucks 4 days a week and cammies once, the opposite when I was in Oki. When I was in the Guard starting in the 2000s, it was all CVCU (as a tanker) or BDUs (and later ACUs, then OCPs). The only time M-Day guys wore service or dress uniforms was for boards or special occasions, like Dinings In.

When I was at Sill for TRADOC schools, it was ACU/OCPs, and ASU for 'Payday Activities' and more formal ceremonies, such as graduations.

That being said, I own and wear the dress uniforms for all the services I've been with. I still have my USMC Dress Blues in my closet; I own Army Mess Dress and CAP Mess Dress. I wear them every chance I get.

However, other than the CAP Mess Dress, I don't wear any USAF-style uniforms. I'm done with them.

I understand that people think service uniforms are too fussy, but I don't really understand why. I think under-dressing for a situation detracts from the sense of occasion. Sort of like going to a Halloween party in your day-to-day street clothes. I mean: Sure, okay. But are you really engaged and fully participating in what's going on? Nope.

I love the polo and I wear it all the time. I'm actually stunned that CAP was able to come up with it; we screw up uniforms so often and so hard. But the polo is not always appropriate for the event. And, as folks have pointed out, it's not the Minimum Uniform. I wear the polo when my Cadets are in ABU. When they're in Blues, I wear the Aviator.

And in conclusion: The 39-1 is a train wreck of colossal proportions. They should hand it to me for a rewrite.

[Stonewall]

I wouldn't be surprised if whomever wrote the reg was someone lacking in real world military experience. Or maybe like the SGM in Kuwait who complained about the small red button light clipped to our uniform used frequently on our patrols.

Maybe your time in the military was different? I'd love to hear about it.

Comparing someone who wrote a uniform reg for CAP to the REMF SGM on a deployment (however so tame and more of a TDY than deployment) isn't relevant in this discussion. In CAP vernacular, that'd be like comparing a hardened ground pounding SAR guru to an aerospace education officer. But I do see where you're coming from.

While I am not a fan of wearing blues, or any formal uniform, they do have their place in CAP (and the military). In my opinion, wearing a military uniform, specifically a version of the dress uniform (ideally, Class B), for cadets is a cornerstone of the cadet program. I also believe that the Class B uniform SHOULD NOT be the first, initial uniform, but rather the utility uniform. In 2023, that means ABUS - - who knows what it'll mean in 2024 or 2037.

In 1987 as a doolie at my first CAP encampment at Tyndall AFB, I had a single set of blues (Class B), yet we wore it 5 of the 7 days, with a long inspection formation following morning chow in the very hot sun. Fatigues were worn during the obstacle course and a few "get dirty" activities like with the crash rescue folks. After that, my blues shirt was destroyed after encampment. Today, I see cadets scrambling to purchase all the intricacies of the basic Class B uniform days before encampment, only to wear ABUs 90% of the time.

As a squadron CDC and then CC in the nineties, I mandated BDUs as the primary uniform and that's what cadets graduated T-Flight (now called Cadet Great Start) in. They can do so much more in the fatigue/BDU/ABU/OCP uniform than in blues. Hell, I even saw a CAP unit conducting a color guard mission during Wreaths Across America last week in ABUs. Why not? I applaud them for being in UNI-form in ABUs rather than wearing blues and lacking some sort of accoutrement. Not to mention, ABUs are warmer than short-sleeve blues.

In short (if you didn't read above), I do believe there is a place for blues in CAP, with a bulk of that rationale going toward the cadet program. But I do believe ABU/OCPs should be our primary duty uniform and the FIRST uniform a cadet should own.

For seniors? That's a different discussion. I have my thoughts on that as well.

[SierraOneThree]

As a squadron CDC and then CC in the nineties, I mandated BDUs as the primary uniform and that's what cadets graduated T-Flight (now called Cadet Great Start) in. They can do so much more in the fatigue/BDU/ABU/OCP uniform than in blues. Hell, I even saw a CAP unit conducting a color guard mission during Wreaths Across America last week in ABUs. Why not? I applaud them for being in UNI-form in ABUs rather than wearing blues and lacking some sort of accoutrement. Not to mention, ABUs are warmer than short-sleeve blues.

Times they are changin. I agree with the principle that the field uniform should be the minimum required uniform, but tragically that is not yet the case. Hopefully you aren't still mandating the field uniform in lieu of the blues these days without supplying them, cuz 39-1 has entered the chat if so.

[Paul Creed III]

I also believe that the Class B uniform SHOULD NOT be the first, initial uniform, but rather the utility uniform. In 2023, that means ABUS - - who knows what it'll mean in 2024 or 2037.

I'm with you, boss, on this one too for cadets. The utility uniform has much more... utility than blues and I think that should be the first unform for cadets. The utility unform is much more forgiving with growing cadets and having that now be included as part of the Curry Uniform Voucher is a good thing. Hopefully, that'll continue for whatever utility unform comes next.

[blackrain]

Danger of the written word without the face-to-face context. I'll try to clarify. I referred to the SGM in Kuwait as an example of an attitude. Putting small issues above the big issues no matter what.

I also agree the senior uniform discussion needs to be separate from the cadet uniform discussion. I actually remember way back in basic training we didn't see a dress uniform until maybe week 6 and part of that was the reality that trainees often saw a significant weight loss in that time. Hats off to TRADOC. Of course, all these uniforms were issued at government expense so there is that.

So yes, I believe the field uniform should be the minimum required. Way more versatile.

Actually, it reminds of reserve component drill weekends when mandatory "PowerPoint Taskers" were sent last minute down from on high and the carefully planned training schedule for that weekend gets blown up. I would argue they were not value added with the limited time available. Same for weekly squadron meetings. Training time is precious. I've seen dealing with cadet uniforms especially dress uniforms take more than a little time away from the other tasks at hand.
My 0.02

[Eclipse]

Comparing someone who wrote a uniform reg for CAP to the REMF SGM on a deployment (however so tame and more of a TDY than deployment) isn't relevant in this discussion.

<<Boom>>

[Stonewall]

As a squadron CDC and then CC in the nineties, I mandated BDUs as the primary uniform and that's what cadets graduated T-Flight (now called Cadet Great Start) in. They can do so much more in the fatigue/BDU/ABU/OCP uniform than in blues. Hell, I even saw a CAP unit conducting a color guard mission during Wreaths Across America last week in ABUs. Why not? I applaud them for being in UNI-form in ABUs rather than wearing blues and lacking some sort of accoutrement. Not to mention, ABUs are warmer than short-sleeve blues.

Times they are changin. I agree with the principle that the field uniform should be the minimum required uniform, but tragically that is not yet the case. Hopefully you aren't still mandating the field uniform in lieu of the blues these days without supplying them, cuz 39-1 has entered the chat if so.

First line...

As a squadron CDC and then CC in the nineties...

Even then, the short-sleeve blues was the required minimum uniform for cadets. If I were a squadron commander today, I'd still place priority on ABUs over blues for a number of reasons. First, at least locally, ABUs are ridiculously accessible. We pretty much have an unlimited supply since we're around an Air Force base and have four ANG Wings and three AFRES wings in our state. Of course, smaller sizes aren't always available, but by and large, we get what the cadets need for ABUs. Outside of the occasional ABU hat and black boots, most of our cadets have at least one set of ABUs and no one has been forced to buy any (unless they choose to). Blues are much harder to acquire and if we waited to promote cadets to C/Amn until they had their blues, you'd find silly pictures of cadets getting pinned their first stripe to civilian polo shirt (I see these regularly). Instead, we can get them their ABUs within their first few weeks and they can promote in a complete uniform.

Looking back, I was a squadron commander up until about 2005, but even then BDUs were the primary uniform for my squadron and upon graduating T-Flight, we focused on getting them blues prior to encampment. With a heavy focus on ES at the time, it only made sense, despite what the required minimum uniform was for cadets.

The good thing about CAP is, despite the regs, simple things like uniforms of the day can be dictated at the unit level and no one gets hurt. If it makes sense and builds camaraderie and esprit de corps, then I'll take the heat for it. Blues is a great idea, but rarely does it work out when you're graduating 10 cadets of all shapes/sizes from Cadet Great Strat. Depending on where people live may dictate their local operating procedures.  In the end, I'm not a squadron commander and likely won't be again, so my opinion is, if anything, worth a cup of coffee.

[blackrain]

Comparing someone who wrote a uniform reg for CAP to the REMF SGM on a deployment (however so tame and more of a TDY than deployment) isn't relevant in this discussion.

<<Boom>>

Please see my clarification in my post immediately preceding yours.

I have no problem discussing this issue with you or anyone else directly if that avoids a misunderstanding.

It's a shame we all can't do so more often. Maybe on Teams?

[heliodoc]

I am going to agree w blackrain in his assessment. When you spend time in amolitary hangar or any civilian hangar CAP ought to have had that foresight in the last 82 years. Why does one suppose that Class B greens, pink n greens were not a selected uniform for a hangar environment? Those seemingly were for the office and dog n pony shows.

A white shirt for a mandatory uniform? For senior members who active in ground and aviation operations...it seems to me, like the rest of the response world, CAP would be engaged a more all around type of uniform such as a polo, that could be worn for what we do

[PHall]

I am going to agree w blackrain in his assessment. When you spend time in amolitary hangar or any civilian hangar CAP ought to have had that foresight in the last 82 years. Why does one suppose that Class B greens, pink n greens were not a selected uniform for a hangar environment? Those seemingly were for the office and dog n pony shows.

A white shirt for a mandatory uniform? For senior members who active in ground and aviation operations...it seems to me, like the rest of the response world, CAP would be engaged a more all around type of uniform such as a polo, that could be worn for what we do

The two required uniforms are service uniforms. Never seen anybody do ground or aviation operations in a service uniform. That's why there are other more suitable uniforms for those activities.

[Dad2-4]

I wear the white aviator shirt combo, the polo shirt with either slacks or cargo pants, blue BDU utility uniform, or the corporate dress uniform as occasion dictates. Since I'm the CC of a new unit, I get to choose. 

[Hippidy]

my .02 cents,

 As a member of a military family, 5 years of "Young Marines" (FWIW), and now a CAP member:

I think the utility uniform should be the required standard and the Blues be the second suggested uniforms for several reasons

1) Hangar and ES heavy squadrons will get way more use out of the Utility Uniforms.
2) Learning to crawl before you walk... Cadets need to learn basic care of uniforms before taking on the challenge of Dress Uniforms.
3) Currently in my squadron the UOD breakdown is thus:
   1st Monday: Dress Blue - Corporate Aviator
   2nd Monday: Utilities
   3rd Monday: Utilities
   4th Monday: PT Gear - Polo (Seniors)
4) Cost of acquiring ABU is less steep for Cadets given our availability of free or discounted uniforms
   (our squadron has a closet with a wide variety of ABUs that helps with keeping entry cost low) 

[SierraOneThree]

4) Cost of acquiring ABU is less steep for Cadets given our availability of free or discounted uniforms
   (our squadron has a closet with a wide variety of ABUs that helps with keeping entry cost low) 

Milsurp ABUs are pretty much gone now.