National Board Agenda More Safety Training/Briefings!!!

Started by RADIOMAN015, August 28, 2009, 08:40:09 PM

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RADIOMAN015

Wow, wow, wow  --  Has CAP's accident rate for personnel, vehicles, & aircraft really gone up to such a higher rate to warrant such signficiant volunteer member time & documentation  requirements ??? ???

Check out agenda item Agenda item #11 proposal to national board at http://www.natcapwg.cap.gov/abovethecapital/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Agenda-Sep-09-Final.pdf

I would think that the emphasis/priority on safety briefings/discussions on potential hazards & mitigations should be right before the unit membership embarks on an activity that will have safety concerns.

What's proposed is truely puzzling as far as logic.  You can do most of the safety briefings  on line but than you have to attend in person 1 safety briefing per quarter otherwise you can't participate in any activities.  Hmm, lets say your a pilot and the quarterly safety briefing you decide to attend talks about "sunburn"... Surely that is a very high safety concern for pilots ???

Looks to me like safety needs to be broken down into 3 or 4 categories
1.  General Safety (easily done with a 1 or 2 page talking point paper).
2.  Aviation Safety (everthing to do with the aircraft) including cross feeding of safety incident reports.
3.  Functional/Mission Safety -- This would be related specifically to your functional job in CAP as well as mission related overall & mission functional safety.   e.g. Ground Team being deployed to a search area.
4.  Activity Related ---   Other CAP activities such as typical squadron PT activities, marching, squadron visits to air museums, cadet orientation flights, etc.

1 &2 could be monthly briefings geared specifically to the intended target audiences.
3&4 could be accomplished on an as need basis as "in person" required briefings. 

1 &2 could easily be done on line.  Parts of 3 (functional) could also be done on line.    3 Mission & 4 would be pre departure safety briefings.

I don't want to see anyone get injuried/killed or CAP property damaged or destroyed during a CAP activity, BUT I'm still wondering if this proposal is a "paper chase" type program ???
RM   

FW

^Yes  :-*

With flying hours down and accidents/incidents up, we have a major problem. 

There are now 2 schools of thought.  This first is: better training and funding for proficiency and currency.  The second is the agenda item before the national board.   

The second school of thought has prevailed.  :-X

RADIOMAN015

Quote from: FW on August 28, 2009, 10:35:51 PM
^Yes  :-*

With flying hours down and accidents/incidents up, we have a major problem. 

There are now 2 schools of thought.  This first is: better training and funding for proficiency and currency.  The second is the agenda item before the national board.   

The second school of thought has prevailed.  :-X
Well IF it is aircraft accidents/incidents, than that is where the safety training needs to be focused heavily with that functional group of volunteers  ::).  I'm not so sure the entire membership needs to be "punished" by all these briefings on line or in person & the stick approach of not being able to particpate in any CAP activities, etc. 

Again I would keep the pre activity safety analysis/briefing/discussion & perhaps just have a 1 page flyer for common safety concerns each month that could be sent to the membership as an email attachment & also posted the units' bulletin board.
RM

Eclipse

If you consider safety briefings "punishment", you're missing the point.

If you assert that a safety briefing about "anything" isn't "relevant", you're missing the point.

If you're a pilot and only attending one meeting a quarter, you're not doing it right.

"That Others May Zoom"

RADIOMAN015

Quote from: Eclipse on August 29, 2009, 05:07:29 PM
If you consider safety briefings "punishment", you're missing the point.

If you assert that a safety briefing about "anything" isn't "relevant", you're missing the point.

If you're a pilot and only attending one meeting a quarter, you're not doing it right.

Well I'm all for safety, but on the other hand lets make it as painless as possible for the membership to get the briefings and concentrate on "specific" safety issues relating to CAP accidents/incidents/injuries as the priority.   

As I stated in my original post you've got to target safety briefings/information to those 4 or 5 specific areas.     

Gee when you start telling volunteers that they can't attend any activities because they missed a safety briefing  don't you think that is punitive ??? ???   
RM


Eclipse

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on August 29, 2009, 08:29:24 PM
Gee when you start telling volunteers that they can't attend any activities because they missed a safety briefing  don't you think that is punitive

This is a training and currency expectation, not a punishment, there's a difference.  Just like a F5, 91, Medical, re currency, whatever.

CAP is not a correspondence program, we need to get that straight and stop looking for ways to encourage members to not attend regular meetings.

I have way too many members in my AOR who are "twice a year 'whatever'" they do the one sliver of thing they like, and can't be bothered to participate, answer an email, or do anything else the rest of the year.

Generally the week before their "thing" - they are scrambling to figure out what they missed and whining about all the regs and administrivia they missed / don't know about / didn't do.  These guys want to play with big boy toys in the deep end of the pool, but somehow think its SODJ to do anything but show up on game day and expect to play.

Actual participation in the program, professional development, and they occasional raising of your own spoon negates that.  If it takes a safety briefing requirement to get butts in seats, where do I sign?

"That Others May Zoom"

RedFox24

Quote from: FW on August 28, 2009, 10:35:51 PM
^Yes  :-*

With flying hours down and accidents/incidents up, we have a major problem. 

Quote from: Eclipse on August 29, 2009, 08:38:12 PM

I have way too many members in my AOR who are "twice a year 'whatever'" they do the one silver of thing they like, and can't be bothered to participate, answer an email, or do anything else the rest of the year.

My .02 worth

Yes there is a major problem. 

When hours of operation go down and accidents go up and you cant get your people to show up but once a month or what ever more safety training is not going to help the problem. 

The problem is the morale of the volunteers.  Look at any organization, public/private, paid or volunteer, and then look at their safety records.  When morale goes down, safety goes with it. 

Look at the activities that don't have safety issues and look at the morale of those involved.  Supervision, adherence to detail, conservation of assets and recourses are all a priority because morale is high among those who are working that activity. 
Contrarian and Curmudgeon at Large

"You can tell a member of National Headquarters but you can't tell them much!"

Just say NO to NESA Speak.

Spike

Has anyone ever factored age into these statistics?? 

Many Wings are heavy in the "approaching senior citizen" bracket!

We are getting older, not younger as an organization. 

Eclipse

Quote from: Spike on August 29, 2009, 10:02:51 PM
Has anyone ever factored age into these statistics?? 

Many Wings are heavy in the "approaching senior citizen" bracket!

We are getting older, not younger as an organization.

We are getting older as a country. That is not necessarily relevent to the safety question at the age range most volunteers participate.

"That Others May Zoom"

lordmonar

Has anyone factored in that "I was not breifed on this safety hazard" was a part of any of these accidents?

I mean do I really need to watch a 15 minute video to know that I should not push my plane into the wall?

22 years in the air force has told me that weekly/monthly/yearly safety breifings and trainings do not eliminate accidents.

You still see the same thing.

Airman drunk, speeding and not wearing safety belt.
Airman drunk, speeding and not wearing motorcycle safety gear.

Safety has always touted that if we just do more breifings and get engaged with our troops somehow we can elminate accidents.

It is not true.

This is just going to be more paper work....and more BS someone will have to keep track of.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Ned

Quote from: lordmonar on August 30, 2009, 05:14:06 AM
I mean do I really need to watch a 15 minute video to know that I should not push my plane into the wall?

So what works?

Why do we keep having people push airplanes into objects?

What can we engineer to reduce easily avoidable mishaps?

Honestly, based on your experience what do we do?

Just throw up our hands and say "Well, since we can't avoid these kinds of things, we shouldn't even try?"

I hate Powerpoint briefings as much or more than anyone.

So I throw it out to all of you . . . .  how can we create a response to something as simple as not pushing aircraft into objects?

Ned Lee

ol'fido

Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

Eclipse

What actually works is a ground-up, day-0 attitude of personal responsibility, respect for property and others, and an acceptance of the real-world weight of our duties.  Execution of your duties with an attitude of professionalism which is at least the same as what you would afford your "day job" is important as well.  People who consider themselves "professionals" generally do things right, and by the book, as a point, regardless of what monetary compensation they may, or may not, receive.

It also requires meaningful, swift, and appropriate levels of disciplinary action and liability.

If your attitude as a member is "You're lucky I showed up at all...", "I'm just a volunteer..." or the worst "I know better..." You're likely sunk from the get-go and all the videos in the world won't help.

This runs to the same vein as hazing - those who understand the problem and the responsibility are likely not going to do it regardless, and will correct any borderline behavior when it is pointed out.   Those that disagree with what hazing "is", or think "I know better..." will continue to act up and cause issues, but for some reason they keep getting invited back.  Rewarding bad behavior is a great way for it to continue.

This requires well-trained commanders to impose and enforce the standards and have the uncomfortable conversations as required - something many "flying club, summer camp, and rec center commanders" refuse to do because they don't want to "make waves or hurt feelings..."

"That Others May Zoom"

lordmonar

Quote from: Ned on August 30, 2009, 07:14:05 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on August 30, 2009, 05:14:06 AM
I mean do I really need to watch a 15 minute video to know that I should not push my plane into the wall?

So what works?

Why do we keep having people push airplanes into objects?

What can we engineer to reduce easily avoidable mishaps?

Honestly, based on your experience what do we do?

Just throw up our hands and say "Well, since we can't avoid these kinds of things, we shouldn't even try?"

I hate Powerpoint briefings as much or more than anyone.

So I throw it out to all of you . . . .  how can we create a response to something as simple as not pushing aircraft into objects?

Ned Lee

At some point you got to say.....I can't save the world and I got to accept a certain amount of accidents.

In the mean time you make those dumb asses who smash up planes/vans/et al pay for their mistakes.

My point is that the knee jerk "we got to do something" reaction can be just as dumb as "let's ignore it and hope it goes away".
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

FW

IMHO, we spend more time worrying about safety madates than actually being safe.  I am getting the sense we are seeing an increase in accidents/incidents with an ever increasing mandate load for safety issues.

I honestly don't have a clue on what is the best way to lower our "oops" factor however, taking an "ownership" stake in what we're doing may help.  CAP is our organization and, everything we do should be something we are proud of; something we have no problem training for and, no problem in seeing it is done safely and correctly.  Responsibility, respect and integrety should not be just words.   

Spike

Quote from: Eclipse on August 30, 2009, 03:17:52 AM
Quote from: Spike on August 29, 2009, 10:02:51 PM
Has anyone ever factored age into these statistics?? 

Many Wings are heavy in the "approaching senior citizen" bracket!

We are getting older, not younger as an organization.

We are getting older as a country. That is not necessarily relevant to the safety question at the age range most volunteers participate.

It absolutely is a factor.  We need to know if the majority of accidents are being made by people over 60 or those in their 20's.  We can then address that. 

Just like more teen drivers have accidents, maybe more senior citizen pilots have accidents. 

I think that should be an inclusion in accident reports. 

wingnut55

I think we had less of a problem when members used their OWN aircraft. We will never rid the rental attitude that many aircrew have.

heliodoc

Right you are wingnut,

But many a CAP aircrew have never been an A&P and even FEWER Wing CC's and NHQ CC's hold that certificate.

Also many of those legal types at NHQ and lower echelons (sp) have probably never picked up anything more exotic than a Phillips screwdriver.  But are ready to write and administer policy based on the "rental car mentality"

MAYBE CAP pilots including CAP CFI's should be FORCED to read AC 43-13 for the sheer pleasure of what us mechanic /pilots have had to go through....maybe even a maintenance course FUNDED by NHQ is in order...how about some REAL training and NOT some online superstar kind of "training"

Most of CAP pilots who DO have an A&P certainly do not belong in that broad brush..  but I have met many a member pilot who doesn't even come close to rental car attitudes..... >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D


Eclipse

Quote from: heliodoc on August 31, 2009, 02:30:27 AM
But many a CAP aircrew have never been an A&P and even FEWER Wing CC's and NHQ CC's hold that certificate.

And there isn't a SINGLE reason why they should be, or any evidence this would make them a better pilot, commander, or even member...

"That Others May Zoom"

heliodoc

Guess not, Eclipse

But ALLL that online training is evidence is that CAP is even safer today than yesterday

Never said they had to be...but painting everyone with that rental car attitude sure seems to be everyone in CAP's  mantra

An A&P is merely (an expensive one at that) MORE awareness that MOST CAPers have......