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Color Deficiency Test

Started by RADIOMAN015, May 29, 2010, 06:14:51 PM

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RADIOMAN015

Check this out:
http://www.archimedes-lab.org/colorblindnesstest.html

Might be a good test to give to all CAP drivers.  Also any cadets that have an interest in flying and occupations that require no defect in color vision.
RM

Eclipse

So you're suggesting that CAP limit people who have state-issued driver's licenses from driving a CAP vehicle, even though colorblindness is not a restricting factor for the regular DL?

"That Others May Zoom"

RADIOMAN015

Quote from: Eclipse on May 29, 2010, 06:17:31 PM
So you're suggesting that CAP limit people who have state-issued driver's licenses from driving a CAP vehicle, even though colorblindness is not a restricting factor for the regular DL?
Depends how that CAP driver is going to be utilized (not sure I would use them in ES type activities, or at least ensure there's another senior member in the front seat with normal color vision)   Generally CAP goes by the local law on driver license.  You got one, you got a good chance of being a CAP driver.   

Safety wise driving 12 people in a van, it is reasonable for CAP to know what medical or other conditions might impact this driving.
RM 

Eclipse


"That Others May Zoom"

davidsinn

How would color blindness affect driving ability? If you notice signage colors and traffic light configurations are standard thoughout the US. We have a hard enough time getting qualified people. Why add stupid requirements?
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

Eclipse

Quote from: davidsinn on May 30, 2010, 02:45:38 AM
How would color blindness affect driving ability? If you notice signage colors and traffic light configurations are standard thoughout the US. We have a hard enough time getting qualified people. Why add stupid requirements?

Yep - and they are designed to compensate for colorblindness - sign shapes, signals with the light in a specific position, etc.

"That Others May Zoom"

N Harmon

I have red/green colorblindness. And while it has presented a few obstacles in my life, it does not affect my ability to safely operate a motor vehicle. And children are all tested for colorblindness at young ages, so this isn't really something CAP needs to deal with.
NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
Monroe Composite Squadron

isuhawkeye

there are also FAA waivers for pilots who are color blind   :-\

RADIOMAN015

Quote from: Eclipse on May 30, 2010, 02:49:06 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on May 30, 2010, 02:45:38 AM
How would color blindness affect driving ability? If you notice signage colors and traffic light configurations are standard thoughout the US. We have a hard enough time getting qualified people. Why add stupid requirements?

Yep - and they are designed to compensate for colorblindness - sign shapes, signals with the light in a specific position, etc.
Stop signs can be missing,where there is also a flashing red light, signal lights with various colors might be employed (e.g. tower to aircraft comm out procedures,  homeland security comm signal procedures etc).     The military tests for color blindness as part of the initial entrance processing.  As the official Auxiliary of the USAF, it stands to reason that we should ensure our personnel who have this deficiency, and perform official CAP driving, pilot, other crew member status, GT/UDF team status, etc are known to us, regardless of waivers etc.    Every mission requires having a good knowledge of your resources strengths & weaknesses.

Also if you have cadets that are considering going into the military it's a good idea for them to known if they have a color deficiency issue  -- since certain military occupations required normal color vision.  The computer test listed looks very similiar to the MEPS processing test we would give to  military service applicants.

RM

cap235629

Radioman,

Your perfect world doesn't exist.  Go dig a hole somewhere and found your own organization similar to the "U.S. Ranger Corps" and you can make all the rules.  None of your suggestions have any basis in reality.  If you were in my unit you would be quickly ostracized in hopes that you would just go away.................
Bill Hobbs, Major, CAP
Arkansas Certified Emergency Manager
Tabhair 'om póg, is Éireannach mé

RADIOMAN015

Quote from: cap235629 on May 30, 2010, 03:41:05 PM
Radioman,

Your perfect world doesn't exist.  Go dig a hole somewhere and found your own organization similar to the "U.S. Ranger Corps" and you can make all the rules.  None of your suggestions have any basis in reality.  If you were in my unit you would be quickly ostracized in hopes that you would just go away.................
Bit confused about the perfect world comment ???.

Safety is very important to CAP.  Once again, we need to be aware of our personnel's limitations and how they will affect our ES/Homeland Security missions as well as with typical squadron support activities involving vehicle/aircraft operation. :-[ 

Color deficiency in the military services seems to be very important and is tested as part of the military qualification standard. The military can/does utilize various types of signalling lights during radio comm blackout procedures.   CAP could be called upon during our missions to be able to interpret certain colored signal codes.

Many of you want to play Air Force, but yet you don't seem to want to have the complete standard (e.g. color vision deficiency is disqualifying for AF aircraft crew membes) applied to you. 

It's interesting that in any debate in CAP, it always gets down to the other person being attacked and told they should leave CAP if they don't agree with policy -- Got news for you, CAP doesn't have a policy on member's with color vision deficiency  :-\   Perhaps a policy would be in order.  IF not, oh well that's the way it is until there's a serious accident :-[
RM 


Eclipse

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 30, 2010, 04:07:53 PM
Color deficiency in the military services seems to be very important and is tested as part of the military qualification standard. The military can/does utilize various types of signalling lights during radio comm blackout procedures.   CAP could be called upon during our missions to be able to interpret certain colored signal codes.

Give me a break...

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 30, 2010, 04:07:53 PM
It's interesting that in any debate in CAP, it always gets down to the other person being attacked and told they should leave CAP if they don't agree with policy -- Got news for you, CAP doesn't have a policy on member's with color vision deficiency  :-\   Perhaps a policy would be in order.  IF not, oh well that's the way it is until there's a serious accident

Show me one situation in CAP where colorblindness was a factor and effected safety or mission effectiveness.

"That Others May Zoom"

RADIOMAN015

Quote from: Eclipse on May 30, 2010, 06:40:09 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 30, 2010, 04:07:53 PM
Color deficiency in the military services seems to be very important and is tested as part of the military qualification standard. The military can/does utilize various types of signalling lights during radio comm blackout procedures.   CAP could be called upon during our missions to be able to interpret certain colored signal codes.

Give me a break...

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 30, 2010, 04:07:53 PM
It's interesting that in any debate in CAP, it always gets down to the other person being attacked and told they should leave CAP if they don't agree with policy -- Got news for you, CAP doesn't have a policy on member's with color vision deficiency  :-\   Perhaps a policy would be in order.  IF not, oh well that's the way it is until there's a serious accident

Show me one situation in CAP where colorblindness was a factor and effected safety or mission effectiveness.

I always thought that safety is about preventing incidents & accidents, not a knee jerk response to an accident ???

Again, at least USAF wise, on mission tasking they would assume normal color vision of crew members since that's what they require of flight crew members.   We pride ourself on being able to perform many different "Homeland Security --  Missions for America"  -- So you know for certain looking into your crystal ball that we will never have a mission involving various colored signal lights ???

My guess is there's probably not very many color vision impaired CAP members, BUT just like any other medical issue/limitation, at the very least the member's commander should be aware of this and an appropriate risk analysis be conducted when using these personnel for CAP vehicle driving and/or PIC/flight crew status.
RM 


Eclipse

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 31, 2010, 12:39:27 PMSo you know for certain looking into your crystal ball that we will never have a mission involving various colored signal lights?

Yes.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 31, 2010, 12:39:27 PM
...just like any other medical issue/limitation, at the very least the member's commander should be aware of this and an appropriate risk analysis be conducted when using these personnel for CAP vehicle driving and/or PIC/flight crew status.

Risk of what?

"That Others May Zoom"

Major Lord

Wait.....you want to discriminate against people due to color? Nazi! >:D

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

davidsinn

Quote from: Major Lord on May 31, 2010, 02:33:27 PM
Wait.....you want to discriminate against people due to color? Nazi! >:D

Major Lord

And Godwin is proved right again  >:D

Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

Gung Ho

Well Radioman is if we have to know if anybody has a form of color blindness before they can be in CAP we are in trouble. If you read the post there is no commonly available test for Blue/Yellow deficiency. With that said we should disband CAP because we could have somebody with a blue/yellow problem out there driving one of our vans and we would not know it. Get a life!!

But wait, has anybody checked if a color blindness problem could cause a problem with our uniforms? I mean what if somebody with a colorblindness mistook one of the CAP officers as a real AF officer?

RADIOMAN015

Quote from: Gung Ho on May 31, 2010, 08:40:51 PM
Well Radioman is if we have to know if anybody has a form of color blindness before they can be in CAP we are in trouble. If you read the post there is no commonly available test for Blue/Yellow deficiency. With that said we should disband CAP because we could have somebody with a blue/yellow problem out there driving one of our vans and we would not know it. Get a life!!

But wait, has anybody checked if a color blindness problem could cause a problem with our uniforms? I mean what if somebody with a colorblindness mistook one of the CAP officers as a real AF officer?
Hmm reading the entire article at this website is quite interesting:
http://www.archimedes-lab.org/colorblindnesstest.html#reverse including the possible mitigations methods being experiemented with and a bit more information on the military use of this type of testing.

As far as your post goes,  you definitely are showing your maturity level --  This was brought up for discussion as a potential safety issue.  If you want to comment on that e.g. you are color deficient than by all means do.  Has nothing to do with uniforms >:( 

At this point I would ask the moderator to close the topic and perhaps the best way at this point is to send the concern to National Headquarters and see what they say.

RM 

cap235629

^^^^^need a stamp? maybe you'll finally shut up!!!!!
Bill Hobbs, Major, CAP
Arkansas Certified Emergency Manager
Tabhair 'om póg, is Éireannach mé

a2capt

If you put "matter for the blind" on the envelope, you don't even need the stamp.   ;D

I think, however, if this were really an issue it would be something a bit more embedded in society.

If red was never the same thing that most everyone else sees, but all that particular individual say, when you say "is this red, they say yes" and it's over. They know whatever it is as red.

Done.

Another solution to a problem that doesn't exist in full.

davidsinn

Quote from: a2capt on June 01, 2010, 12:38:52 AM
If you put "matter for the blind" on the envelope, you don't even need the stamp.   ;D

I think, however, if this were really an issue it would be something a bit more embedded in society.

If red was never the same thing that most everyone else sees, but all that particular individual say, when you say "is this red, they say yes" and it's over. They know whatever it is as red.

Done.

Another solution to a problem that doesn't exist in full.

Except that's not how it works. Red/green color blind can't tell the difference between the two so they look the same. I don't see any reason to make this an issue. I can't think of a place in CAP where being able to see color is mission critical.
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

cachambliss

While reading this I am thinking of a certain individual I know who is very color blind.  Oh the handicap and how he has been held back from all life has to offr.  Lets see,
He did manage to eke out a Phd in an engineering discipline. 
He did manage to obtain a commission in the US Army, chose Field Artillery as his branch and was accepted, rose to rank of 0-6 Col, and was a Brigade Commander.
He is a member of the Civil Air Patrol,  Leader of a Ground Team and training one or two other ground teams, and a Sqdn Aerospace Education Officer.
He holds a Private Pilot Certificate for Gliders and is soon to get his Single Engine Land Add On.
We are scheduling him for the FAA Testing to remove the color blind restriction on his pilot certificate.
He is a tremendous assett to the CAP, responsible for bringing several new and returning members into the fold, not only for his sqdn but other uniots as well.

So please tell me again what this so called color blind test is supposed to do?

Seems like a certain political mindset of inventing a problem to fit a pre-conceived  solution.

Gung Ho

All I was trying to do was to show how stupid your idea of requiring a color blindness test was. If it was that important we would be doing this test already. The only time I have taken a color test for a driver license was for a medical exam for a commercial driving job and even then the had three lights. One in red, yellow and green, if you could tell each color you passed. I've driven everything from armored swat trucks to firetrucks and ambulances for almost the last 30 years and never once was asked if I had any trouble seeing colors. If we have cadets that want to move on and join the military then yes having a problem seeing colors could be a problem and it is something they should be aware of. But all we need to do is speak with their parents and let them know they might want to check with the family doctor because we don't have the money to send cadets to the doctor. Even if they have a problem seeing some colors that doesn't mean even the military will have a problem with them. CAP does need to worry about safety and our cadets and maybe they should start by giving some try of driving test to our SM before giving them a license to drive our vans, not just check to see what the driving record looks like. When I was in charge of the drivers for a state group we did check the driving record but even if it was perfect I didn't let them drive until I did a road test with them.

jimmydeanno

My father-in-law has red/green color deficiency.  He has a driver's license and has never missed a traffic signal, stop sign, etc.  The only thing that we have to tell him is when it's time to water the lawn, because it looks brown to him all the time.

Fortunately, when someone designed our roadway systems they thought enough to create it so that there is significant difference in shapes, colors, textures, etc so that people with various disabilities can drive.  Even people who can read are able to navigate our roadways without issue.

It seems to me that if someone is capable of passing the applicable driving examinations for their applicable state then we should honor that.  Being the "Air Force Auxiliary" doesn't mean that we need to have all the same policies that the Air Force does.  If that were the case, we'd be lacking some members.
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

AirAux

I believe that in reality we have a shortage of color blind people and to satisfy anticipated diversity requirements, we must actively identify color blind people in society and recruit them immediately..JMHO..

Hawk200

Quote from: Eclipse on May 30, 2010, 06:40:09 PMShow me one situation in CAP where colorblindness was a factor and effected safety or mission effectiveness.
I would echo this somewhat, but expand it. Show a large number that indicates that colorblindness is a factor. Yes, the military has a colorblindness test, but it doesn't restrict entry. If colorblindness is a factor for a pilot, then the FAA has already established criteria and guidelines, so we don't need to.

Second, that website seems to be a signposting type of site that has a primary purpose of selling someone something. It's generally wise to avoid them.

HGjunkie

Quote from: AirAux on June 01, 2010, 08:38:18 PM
I believe that in reality we have a shortage of color blind people and to satisfy anticipated diversity requirements, we must actively identify color blind people in society and recruit them immediately..JMHO..
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

Nathan

Thought as a color-blind guy that I would address some of the comments made in this thread. My level of color-blindness isn't exactly classified as red-green or anything like that, but it's more that I see color about as well as everyone else does in the dark. Bright, basic colors aren't too difficult, but once you expand beyond the original ten or so Crayons, it starts to become a struggle to tell you what color you're pointing to.

1) Driving has not been a factor for me. As mentioned, the traffic system here is pretty-well adapted for color-blindness. The traffic lights are always in the same order, and since the green appears to be blue to me, having red and green on the opposite sides of the light makes it fairly easy for me. I don't "miss" stop signs. Honestly, the only time it's been a factor while driving is trying to determine whether the light is yellow or red  from a distance, but given that either means I should theoretically be stopping, then it really doesn't make that much of a difference.

2) For ES, you'd probably want a color-blind guy driving instead of navigating. I'm terrible at reading maps, generally because they have a bunch of colors squashed together in tiny spaces, and I can't distinguish any of them. I'm really good at using an L-Per, but you're taking your own life into your hands if you hand me a map.  :)

3) I have rarely encountered situations in CAP where color-blindness has held me back significantly. I can't speak on the pilot stuff, since I was never particularly interested in flying and therefore never looked much into the requirements (save that waivers existed for color-blind civilians). The biggest time it affected me was during the NESA compass course. I had a VERY difficult time seeing the orange flags on the brown poles in the middle of the woods, so even though my pace count was pretty accurate, I would wander right by the pole and end up out in the boonies. I ended up having one of the instructors accompany me during my compass course and let me know if I was standing next to the pole or not. FWIW, the orange "flags" were pieces of faded orange marking tape, so it wasn't THAT bright.

4) I did go to MEPS with the intention of becoming an intel guy with the Navy Reserve, but failed miserably at the color-blind test. Interestingly, they were willing to grant me a waiver to be a hospital corpsman or a SEAL ("They're always looking through night vision anyway"), but since I wanted to finish college and apply to medical school, I declined. I think that if the Navy was willing to let me go through BUD/S that CAP shouldn't have anything too much for a color-blind person to handle.

5) I highly doubt that there will ever be a serious accident attributed to someone being color-blind. It does not affect the mission any more than, say, being fat does, or being deaf does, or being old does. Certain situations will limit the members that can participate as a matter of fact. A deaf person will probably not be able to perform as a communications expert with radios, so if CAP is ever needing to use radios, they will use someone else. Likewise, if CAP is ever called to "interpret color coded signals", I will not be the person to volunteer for that job. You don't need to officially hold me back from trying. I'm not even going to bother to put myself in that situation. Just like I doubt a blind person is going to risk causing a serious accident by volunteering to drive a vanload of cadets to an encampment. We aren't stupid. We know our limitations. We've been living with them for a while.

6) 3.5 million people in the US have color-blindness (about 1 in 76). There are likely a TON of color-blind people in CAP. This is a medical condition that has been prevalent in CAP since its inception, and even though around 2% of CAP is colorblind (assuming they're in line with national statistics...), these safety issues have not actually BEEN issues.

7) For most color-blind people, there is no such thing as a "color substitution." It's not that we really see red as green, and green as red. It's that the colors both look similar, and that we can't make up our mind as to which it is. It's a fun logic experiment to say that a person who sees red as green is technically still functional, but that's not the way it works.

Oh, and please do not ask us "What color is this?". It is BEYOND annoying. The question doesn't make any sense, and I show that by asking someone to describe the color red without using examples. Just because you point to something red and we say green doesn't mean, again, that we're ACTUALLY seeing green. It means it could be red or green, and we are guessing incorrectly. The game gets super old.  ::)
Nathan Scalia

The post beneath this one is a lie.

jimmydeanno

Quote from: Nathan on June 23, 2010, 06:30:42 PM
Oh, and please do not ask us "What color is this?". It is BEYOND annoying. The question doesn't make any sense, and I show that by asking someone to describe the color red without using examples. Just because you point to something red and we say green doesn't mean, again, that we're ACTUALLY seeing green. It means it could be red or green, and we are guessing incorrectly. The game gets super old.  ::)

What about this color?

Or this one?

Or this?

Just playin'.  :P
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

exFlight Officer

I took the test. I am not colorblind  :D   Good thing since I have to transport a CAP van tomorrow.

N Harmon

Quote from: Flight Officer on June 24, 2010, 03:19:04 PM
I took the test. I am not colorblind  :D   Good thing since I have to transport a CAP van tomorrow.

Me too, except I am colorblind.
NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
Monroe Composite Squadron

DakRadz

Look, as long as you can see orange (ES) and blue (Kinda a tradition), I'd say your good to go in CAP. If you can't see those colors... Oh well. We still want you in :D

Heck, the fact that the most common (AFAIK) colorblindness is red-green only makes me want more colorblind people up in the top of CAP's leadership- they can't see red, so they can actually accomplish something without endless petty bickering. They obviously wouldn't want to use a lot of green, so they can be in charge of the budget.

^ That was a joke, well-intentioned I assure you; if you need an explanation... *Sigh*

ol'fido

I sometimes get my red and green crayons confused when filling out my CAP paperwork.  :-\ :-\ Plus it's hard to get off the computer screen.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

Nathan

Quote from: N Harmon on June 24, 2010, 06:47:06 PM
Quote from: Flight Officer on June 24, 2010, 03:19:04 PM
I took the test. I am not colorblind  :D   Good thing since I have to transport a CAP van tomorrow.

Me too, except I am colorblind.

So... the moral is, if you don't want your CAP-destined male kid to grow up color-blind, don't name him Nathan.

;)
Nathan Scalia

The post beneath this one is a lie.

tsrup

The only situation where I could see color blindness becoming a factor in CAP would be on a missing person search (etc.)

Example:
Missing person wearing a read shirt in a green field, scanner with red/green colorblindness.

Red blends in with the green and scanner misses the person.

But a scanner can compensate by using different techniques, looking for shadows, angles etc.. 

so it really is a moot point.

As per the original situation as a "safety hazard" while driving.  Get real.  A color blind SM can drive to the meetings, but cannot drive the CAP van?  C'mon...

Another typical thread with a solution looking for a problem.

The only thing surprising about this is that it's gone on to the second page and RM hasn't tried to abolish AF style uniforms yet. ::)
Paramedic
hang-around.