I really want to join CAP, DO I have to cut my hair?

[kyle413]

I recently got very interested in CAP, and talked to a local squadron and I'm attending a meeting soon, but my question is do i have to cut my hair? most of my hair is fairly short but I have bangs that are about half an inch above my eyebrow. I feel uncomfortable without bangs, are they going to make me cut them?

[Camas]

Thank you for your interest in Civil Air Patrol. Having said that you must realize (and I'm sure you do) that CAP has very exacting standards when it comes to grooming standards for all members. I don't know if you're male or female but you should go ahead, visit the unit and interact with some of the cadet staff members. I won't bore you with all the grooming details here; your cadet staff can assist you in whether or not you meet grooming standards and if, in fact, CAP is the right program for you. Perhaps you know some of these cadets in school or in your neighborhood. Good luck to you and I hope you'll make the right decision that meets your needs.

[kyle413]

OK, (I'm a male btw) yeah I go to the meeting this monday and I guess I'll talk to them about it. I read the standards but I had a bit of trouble understanding them.

[GTCommando]

First, welcome to CAPTalk!

As far as bangs go, here's a quote from Attachment 2 (attached) of the uniform manual.

Bangs: Not below eyebrows and not exposed when headgear is worn.

So, if you can wear a flight cap or BDU patrol cap (your squadron staff will explain what those are) and not have bangs visible, you're good to go. Otherwise, you may need to have them trimmed.

[kyle413]

OK, SO If i wore like an elastic band or something that held it back, I'd be okay?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Don't worry about any bands... When you are in uniform just put some hair gell or something in and sweep it to the side. I have a high and tight with bangs, and I just put gell in it. Otherwise my hair would go pat my headgear too. It's really no problem at all.

[kyle413]

Don't worry about any bands... When you are in uniform just put some hair gell or something in and sweep it to the side. I have a high and tight with bangs, and I just put gell in it. Otherwise my hair would go pat my headgear too. It's really no problem at all.

OH ok, thats a huge relief, thanks.

[AngelWings]

Don't worry about any bands... When you are in uniform just put some hair gell or something in and sweep it to the side. I have a high and tight with bangs, and I just put gell in it. Otherwise my hair would go pat my headgear too. It's really no problem at all.

Same here. I gell mine and, with the sides of my head clean shaven, people think I have a buzz cut or I am bald.

[ColonelJack]

I wish I could offer some advice.  My hair's in a race to see which will happen first - will it turn gray or will it fall out?

I was just combing what I've got left and looked at the hairs in the comb with mixed feelings.  They were gray ... but they were HAIR!

Jack

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Is this a potential cadet or senior member?

If the latter, a senior can wear his/her hair as they wish, if they wear one of the CAP "alternative" uniforms.

ColonelJack: Sir, I'm 46 and I've been greying since I was a teenager.  I had grey hair at the time of my high school graduation (1984).

Now I'm almost completely white/silver haired, though I'm thinning a bit up top too.

[kyle413]

Is this a potential cadet or senior member?

If the latter, a senior can wear his/her hair as they wish, if they wear one of the CAP "alternative" uniforms.

ColonelJack: Sir, I'm 46 and I've been greying since I was a teenager.  I had grey hair at the time of my high school graduation (1984).

Now I'm almost completely white/silver haired, though I'm thinning a bit up top too.

Potential cadet

[usafcap1]

I recently got very interested in CAP, and talked to a local squadron and I'm attending a meeting soon, but my question is do i have to cut my hair? most of my hair is fairly short but I have bangs that are about half an inch above my eyebrow. I feel uncomfortable without bangs, are they going to make me cut them?

Yes. . . but different squadrons do it differently if your hair is short and in CAPR 39-1 regs then your fine. BUT. . . if you are not you will have to cut it. Ask your staff, also known as NCOs or Flight Sgt. if your hair is good or not. (Hair can not be touching ears and can not be touching back of collar.) Now if you were at my squadron we would give TWO chances before we 'd cut it off. . . but that my squadron. Different squadrons do it different ways.



( [lmgtfy]CAPR 39-1[/lmgtfy] )

By The Way Welcome aboard 

[Майор Хаткевич]

Now if you were at my squadron we would give TWO chances before we 'd cut it off. . . but that my squadron.

And how many times has your unit done this?

[Extremepredjudice]

Now if you were at my squadron we would give TWO chances before we 'd cut it off. . . but that my squadron.

What gives you the right to cut someone's hair off?

[AngelWings]

Now if you were at my squadron we would give TWO chances before we 'd cut it off. . . but that my squadron.

What gives you the right to cut someone's hair off?

How does paying money to wear a uniform give them any right to disrespect the people who wore it in service to this country? 

[Майор Хаткевич]

How does paying money to wear a uniform give them any right to disrespect the people who wore it in service to this country? 

What?

[AngelWings]

How does paying money to wear a uniform give them any right to disrespect the people who wore it in service to this country? 

What?

All a CAP member has to do to get the right to wear a CAP uniform is to pay money to national and their squadron, while the USAF has to go through 8 weeks of BMT for enlisted, or through whatever commisioning source to get the right to wear their uniform. What gives any CAP member the right to disrespect the uniform in such a way to come in with a slovenly haircut that in the USAF wouldn't fly and disrespects their service and commitment to adhere to standards?

[SarDragon]

Small, but important point - it's not a right, it's a privilege.

[AngelWings]

Small, but important point - it's not a right, it's a privilege.

If I said right, I meant privilege.

[Майор Хаткевич]

All a CAP member has to do to get the right to wear a CAP uniform is to pay money to national and their squadron

That is incorrect.

while the USAF has to go through 8 weeks of BMT for enlisted, or through whatever commisioning source to get the right to wear their uniform.

Has no point in this issue.

What gives any CAP member the right to disrespect the uniform in such a way to come in with a slovenly haircut that in the USAF wouldn't fly and disrespects their service and commitment to adhere to standards?

Nobody said they have any right to it. The issue is with this squadron "policy" not whether the member in question has a right to have improper hair styles.

[Eclipse]

The regs say you have to have a compliant hairstyle and it cannot be "faddish".

If you want the privileges of membership, you have the responsibility of compliance with regulations.

No squadron CC, or anyone else in CAP, has the right to force a member to cut their hair, especially any nonsense about "or we'll cut it off".  Doing that is a great way to get terminated yourself, probably sued, and possibly arrested.

With that said, a Unit CC does have the right to discipline a cadet up to and including termination for non-compliance with grooming regulations.

[Extremepredjudice]

Now if you were at my squadron we would give TWO chances before we 'd cut it off. . . but that my squadron.

What gives you the right to cut someone's hair off?

How does paying money to wear a uniform give them any right to disrespect the people who wore it in service to this country? 

Um, yeah, if you tried to cut my hair without permission, you'd be paying for my college. Being non-compliant with regulations doesn't give you the right to touch me or my hair.

[Major Lord]

I wish I could offer some advice.  My hair's in a race to see which will happen first - will it turn gray or will it fall out?

I was just combing what I've got left and looked at the hairs in the comb with mixed feelings.  They were gray ... but they were HAIR!

Jack

Rudyard Kipling wrote that "Hair is the pride of a woman, and the shame of a soldier" So some of us have less to be ashamed of than others......

Major Lord
p.s. Men talking about hair gel and bangs is just not right! You may need hormone therapy.

[Extremepredjudice]

I wish I could offer some advice.  My hair's in a race to see which will happen first - will it turn gray or will it fall out?

I was just combing what I've got left and looked at the hairs in the comb with mixed feelings.  They were gray ... but they were HAIR!

Jack

Rudyard Kipling wrote that "Hair is the pride of a woman, and the shame of a soldier" So some of us have less to be ashamed of than others......

Major Lord
p.s. Men talking about hair gel and bangs is just not right! You may need hormone therapy.

See: metrosexual

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I wish I could offer some advice.  My hair's in a race to see which will happen first - will it turn gray or will it fall out?

I was just combing what I've got left and looked at the hairs in the comb with mixed feelings.  They were gray ... but they were HAIR!

Jack

Rudyard Kipling wrote that "Hair is the pride of a woman, and the shame of a soldier" So some of us have less to be ashamed of than others......

Major Lord
p.s. Men talking about hair gel and bangs is just not right! You may need hormone therapy.

:'(Just because I enjoy my hair, does not mean I am a girl... Lol

I actually went for me Wednesday ritual and cut my hair, yes cut my own hair. I have been cutting my own high and tight for almost seven years now, but this time I wasn't thinking too well about what I was doing and took my number two all the way across the top of my head... I was fading up the sides, and then... Brrrrrrrt... OH MY LORD WHAT HAVE I DONE?!?! Now I look straight out of basic with a half inh fuzz for a high and tight. And nj, I don't have my bangs any more. The only thing that keeps me from looking like a total private is that I am a lot more wrinkly than your average private...

[AngelWings]

I wish I could offer some advice.  My hair's in a race to see which will happen first - will it turn gray or will it fall out?

I was just combing what I've got left and looked at the hairs in the comb with mixed feelings.  They were gray ... but they were HAIR!

Jack

Rudyard Kipling wrote that "Hair is the pride of a woman, and the shame of a soldier" So some of us have less to be ashamed of than others......

Major Lord
p.s. Men talking about hair gel and bangs is just not right! You may need hormone therapy.

:'(Just because I enjoy my hair, does not mean I am a girl... Lol

I actually went for me Wednesday ritual and cut my hair, yes cut my own hair. I have been cutting my own high and tight for almost seven years now, but this time I wasn't thinking too well about what I was doing and took my number two all the way across the top of my head... I was fading up the sides, and then... Brrrrrrrt... OH MY LORD WHAT HAVE I DONE?!?! Now I look straight out of basic with a half inh fuzz for a high and tight. And nj, I don't have my bangs any more. The only thing that keeps me from looking like a total private is that I am a lot more wrinkly than your average private...

I envy you, I have to pay to get it cut because I cannot get a decent fade or even a straight line when I do it.

[Eclipse]

I actually went for me Wednesday ritual and cut my hair, yes cut my own hair. I have been cutting my own high and tight for almost seven years now, but this time I wasn't thinking too well about what I was doing and took my number two all the way across the top of my head... I was fading up the sides, and then... Brrrrrrrt... OH MY LORD WHAT HAVE I DONE?!?! Now I look straight out of basic with a half inh fuzz for a high and tight. And nj, I don't have my bangs any more. The only thing that keeps me from looking like a total private is that I am a lot more wrinkly than your average private...

I literally did the same thing last month - I'm usually a 1 on the sides, 2 on top, and my wife brought home a fancy new trimmer - so I skip a couple
of cuts here and there and do them myself.  I wasn't paying attention, snapped the guard down to zero, and it was too late before I noticed...

[Cap'n]

I wish I could pull off short hair...I'm a girl, and currently use about ten bottles of hairspray, 3000 bobby pins, and two bottles of gel every month.

But as others have said, you can use gel and hair products to put it back- no worries.

[Extremepredjudice]

I wish I could pull off short hair...I'm a girl, and currently use about ten bottles of hairspray, 3000 bobby pins, and two bottles of gel every month.

But as others have said, you can use gel and hair products to put it back- no worries.

Is your head conductive, with 3k bobby pins?

[titanII]

I used to sport a high and tight, 2 on the sides and 4 on top. But that didn't really strike the fancy of a certain administrator at my school, so now it's just a 2 all around. May not look how I'd like, but it works for me.

[Slim]

I wasn't paying attention, snapped the guard down to zero, and it was too late before I noticed...

There are those who have.....and those who will.

[usafcap1]

Now if you were at my squadron we would give TWO chances before we 'd cut it off. . . but that my squadron.

What gives you the right to cut someone's hair off?

All the cadets hand write a contract sign there names date it take it home have there parents sign and date it then cadet staff looks it over and signs it and dates it. and there you go

[usafcap1]

Now if you were at my squadron we would give TWO chances before we 'd cut it off. . . but that my squadron.

And how many times has your unit done this?

A few times but we have contracts cadets, parents, and staff sign them.

[usafcap1]

Now if you were at my squadron we would give TWO chances before we 'd cut it off. . . but that my squadron.

What gives you the right to cut someone's hair off?

How does paying money to wear a uniform give them any right to disrespect the people who wore it in service to this country? 

Um, yeah, if you tried to cut my hair without permission, you'd be paying for my college. Being non-compliant with regulations doesn't give you the right to touch me or my hair.

We have contracts between cadets, parents, and staff.

[PA Guy]

Now if you were at my squadron we would give TWO chances before we 'd cut it off. . . but that my squadron.

What gives you the right to cut someone's hair off?

How does paying money to wear a uniform give them any right to disrespect the people who wore it in service to this country? 

Um, yeah, if you tried to cut my hair without permission, you'd be paying for my college. Being non-compliant with regulations doesn't give you the right to touch me or my hair.

We have contracts between cadets, parents, and staff.

And the "contract" isn't worth the paper it is written on.  This is an unpleasant incident waiting to happen.  CAP isn't in the barber business.  If the cadet doesn't comply with the regs show them the door.

[FlyTiger77]

We have contracts between cadets, parents, and staff.

I would be interested to read one of those contracts. And to know how many parents sign them.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

We push the haircuts like crazy, but we never force it. If we have an activity comming up that they really MUST BE CORRECT, I will tell cadets and their parents that if they need a hair cut and can't afford one or aren't able to go take the time to wait in a barber shop, I will, with a signed note from the parent, cut their hair for them. It makes it easier for us to be ok with sending them home from the activity telling them they can't participate because they aren't in compliance with regulations. It is just really hard to tell them they can't march in the parade even bough they have spent money on the uniforms and have taken their time to come out to the parade, just because their hair doesn't meet regulations. So, we gave you a chance for a free hair cut that will be within regulation, and you didn't take it. But from the get go, we explain and stress how important all of our regulations are, and how they must all be met, no matter how trivial they may seem. I hate sending a cadet home because of their hair, it really sucks, but those are the rules, and we must all obey them.

But no, I would never force a cadet to let me cut their hair, that is actuall a battery charge waiting to happen.

EDIT: fixing stupid iPhone mistakes, I doubt I got them all...

[Stonewall]

This may help explain things a little btter:

3.1.2. Hair-Male. Tapered appearance on both sides and the back of the head, both with and without headgear. A tapered appearance is one that when viewed from any angle outlines the member's hair so that it conforms to the shape of the head, curving inward to the natural termination point without eccentric directional flow, twists or spiking. A block-cut is permitted with tapered appearance. Hair will not exceed 1¼ inch in bulk, regardless of length and ¼ inch at natural termination point; allowing only closely cut or shaved hair on the back of the neck to touch the collar. Hair will not touch the ears or protrude under the front band of headgear. Cleanly shaven heads, military high-and-tight or flat-top cuts are authorized. Prohibited examples (not all inclusive) are Mohawk, mullet, cornrows, dreadlocks or etched design. Men are not authorized hair extensions.

I know a lot of men in the Air Force who quote the part in bold, because as long as while you're in uniform your bangs are Gellin' like Magellan, don't fall below the eyebrows, protrude from under the hat, or cause more than 1 1/4 inch of bulk when gelled back, then you're in-there like swimwear.

[Eclipse]

A few times but we have contracts cadets, parents, and staff sign them.

Two points - the only members who can sign contracts in CAP are Wing CC's or other corporate officers, further, you cannot sign an
agreement which essentially says "it's OK to abuse me".  We all realize this is not your doing, and your CC is likely well intentioned,
but this is simply not what CAP is about, and we all know which road is paved with good intentions.

We require voluntary compliance with regs to participate, and do not coerce people beyond positive peer pressure or the withholding of
opportunity.  Anything else is just wrong and not in keeping with our core values, senior or cadet.

[Eclipse]

I wasn't paying attention, snapped the guard down to zero, and it was too late before I noticed...

There are those who have.....and those who will.

For those scoring at home, I believe I was successful this AM in my attempt to use the clippers properly this time, those who will see me this weekend will be the final judge...

[Extremepredjudice]

Now if you were at my squadron we would give TWO chances before we 'd cut it off. . . but that my squadron.

What gives you the right to cut someone's hair off?

How does paying money to wear a uniform give them any right to disrespect the people who wore it in service to this country? 

Um, yeah, if you tried to cut my hair without permission, you'd be paying for my college. Being non-compliant with regulations doesn't give you the right to touch me or my hair.

We have contracts between cadets, parents, and staff.

MFW reading this: http://qkme.me/3ov5qx

Y U SO NAIVE! You are having a minor sign a contract, that makes it 'okay to abuse me.' Not only that, but chances are, you are pressuring them, which would make the contract void.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

We have contracts between cadets, parents, and staff.

Like heck you do.

Those "contracts" aren't worth tearing up and using in my cat's litterbox.

Are you a Squadron CC?  The term "abuse of authority" comes to mind.

You are bloody lucky someone hasn't gone up the chain with this...I know both my Group and Wing CC personally, and someone would be getting relieved of duty for something like this, if not having disciplinary action initiated against them.

There is nothing in CAP or Air Force regs that gives you that power.

In every squadron (except the senior flying club squadron, of course) I have ever served in, cadet and composite, it has been made perfectly clear to cadets by command staff what the expectations for hairstyle are, with pictures from 39-1.  That said, we did not have the authority, nor do you, to force a haircut on a MINOR, contract or no.

In my first squadron, just once I let my hair get a touch too long (no excuse, except for a brain fart).  My CC, a former Air Force officer, told me, "Lieutenant, before we leave tonight I want to chat with you for a minute."  The "chat" was her telling me, "Lieutenant, the next time I see you I shall expect your hairstyle to be within regulations."  It was.

Now I just buzz it all off...much of it's going bye-bye anyway.

[N Harmon]

If parents give permission to CAP to cut their cadet's hair, and said permission is given in the form of a written permission slip (call it a contract, or whatever), then I'm not sure that is against the rules. I certainly would not want to waste my unit's time cutting cadet hair during meetings, but if others want to...whatever.

[Spaceman3750]

Of course, there's also the regulatory compliance ramifications. Here in IL, cutters of hair (be it a barber or cosmetologist) must be licensed.

[Stonewall]

Of course, there's also the regulatory compliance ramifications. Here in IL, cutters of hair (be it a barber or cosmetologist) must be licensed.

Even in the military (Army, anyway), technically "barracks cuts" are unauthorized.  We had a company barber who went to Norfolk NAS to attend 6 weeks of barber school so he could cut our hair in the barracks.  Had a barber chair and everything.

[jeders]

Of course, there's also the regulatory compliance ramifications. Here in IL, cutters of hair (be it a barber or cosmetologist) must be licensed.

I don't know about IL, but I believe that only applies if you receive compensation for the haircut. So if mom or dad want to cut little Billy's hair, they don't need a license.

[titanII]

if mom or dad want to cut little Billy's hair, they don't need a license.

Well when we're talking about parents, it's a different animal. Parents get a bit more leeway, I would presume.

[Flying Pig]

I actually offered free haircuts to cadets with parents permission.  The only stipuilation was that it had to be a flat top, and had to be outside of a meeting.  I was the unofficial barracks barber in the Marines and I can cut a mean flat top....but thats about it.  I had probably 4-5 takers and did it about 20 haricuts total.  I had some kids whos parents were pretty hard pressed to afford to have their kids in CAP, not to mention a hair cut every couple of weeks.  It seemed like a nice gesture and everyone had fun with it. We'd meet about an hour and a half before meetings, cut hair on the front lawn of our Sq building and then the cadets would walk a block to the base gym where they were allowed to use the showers and change into their uniforms.  Pre-9/11 March AFB, CA was a pretty sweet place to have a CAP Squadron.

But it was never forced or even mentioned that I would show up at an inspection and shave your head. 

[Flying Pig]

Of course, there's also the regulatory compliance ramifications. Here in IL, cutters of hair (be it a barber or cosmetologist) must be licensed.

Even in the military (Army, anyway), technically "barracks cuts" are unauthorized.  We had a company barber who went to Norfolk NAS to attend 6 weeks of barber school so he could cut our hair in the barracks.  Had a barber chair and everything.

HA!...Oh...I forgot to mention, my barracks barber days in the Marines came to an end when the ONE (1) base barber at the weapons station I was at found out why his business had declined significantly over the span of about 6 months.  What was pretty cool was the barber, retired Chief, didnt go to my command or throw a fit.  He located me in the barracks on day, calmy explained that the shop was how he made his living and that me giving $2 haircuts vs his $6 hair cuts was actually hurting him and that he paid rent on the little building he used as a shop.  I was a dumb 18-19 yr old LCpl who had never even considered that part of it.   So I stopped giving hair cuts and he and I actually eneded up with a pretty cordial relationship.     Now I wasnt so dumb that I didnt understand what his plan B would have been   Those were good times actually.  Man I havnt thought about that story in 15 years probably.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

If parents give permission to CAP to cut their cadet's hair, and said permission is given in the form of a written permission slip (call it a contract, or whatever), then I'm not sure that is against the rules. I certainly would not want to waste my unit's time cutting cadet hair during meetings, but if others want to...whatever.

I wouldn't do it without the parents being present.

[AngelWings]

I actually offered free haircuts to cadets with parents permission.  The only stipuilation was that it had to be a flat top, and had to be outside of a meeting.  I was the unofficial barracks barber in the Marines and I can cut a mean flat top....but thats about it.  I had probably 4-5 takers and did it about 20 haricuts total.  I had some kids whos parents were pretty hard pressed to afford to have their kids in CAP, not to mention a hair cut every couple of weeks.  It seemed like a nice gesture and everyone had fun with it. We'd meet about an hour and a half before meetings, cut hair on the front lawn of our Sq building and then the cadets would walk a block to the base gym where they were allowed to use the showers and change into their uniforms.  Pre-9/11 March AFB, CA was a pretty sweet place to have a CAP Squadron.

But it was never forced or even mentioned that I would show up at an inspection and shave your head.

That's just too cool. Only if I could somehow find a person who could give me a flat top willingly for free/cheap.

[Cap'n]

Is your head conductive, with 3k bobby pins?

Probably.

...Well, that might have been a slight exaggeration. Either way, it takes a while to do my hair.

[FlyTiger77]

...it takes a while to do my hair.

Hair? I remember hair. I think. Vaguely.

[Extremepredjudice]

...it takes a while to do my hair.

Hair? I remember hair. I think. Vaguely.

I think you put words into my mouth, sir.  :angel:

[usafcap1]

Now if you were at my squadron we would give TWO chances before we 'd cut it off. . . but that my squadron.

What gives you the right to cut someone's hair off?

How does paying money to wear a uniform give them any right to disrespect the people who wore it in service to this country? 

Um, yeah, if you tried to cut my hair without permission, you'd be paying for my college. Being non-compliant with regulations doesn't give you the right to touch me or my hair.

We have contracts between cadets, parents, and staff.

If the cadet doesn't comply with the regs show them the door.

Nooooooooo. . . we would most likely speak with the parents and say "your cadets hair is out of regs CAPR 39-1 we've told him that blah blah blah" something along those lines.

[usafcap1]

..

[usafcap1]

If parents give permission to CAP to cut their cadet's hair, and said permission is given in the form of a written permission slip (call it a contract, or whatever), then I'm not sure that is against the rules. I certainly would not want to waste my unit's time cutting cadet hair during meetings, but if others want to...whatever.

I fully agree

[usafcap1]

We have contracts between cadets, parents, and staff.

it has been made perfectly clear to cadets by command staff what the expectations for hairstyle are, with pictures from 39-1..

I get that and we do that but we then we proceed to said "If you wish to to not comply with CAPR 39-1" dot dot dot  then we would proceed to said " with the permission and compliance from your parents we will cut your hair.

[usafcap1]

Now if you were at my squadron we would give TWO chances before we 'd cut it off. . . but that my squadron.

What gives you the right to cut someone's hair off?

How does paying money to wear a uniform give them any right to disrespect the people who wore it in service to this country? 

Um, yeah, if you tried to cut my hair without permission, you'd be paying for my college. Being non-compliant with regulations doesn't give you the right to touch me or my hair.

We have contracts between cadets, parents, and staff.

MFW reading this: http://qkme.me/3ov5qx

Y U SO NAIVE! You are having a minor sign a contract, that makes it 'okay to abuse me.' Not only that, but chances are, you are pressuring them, which would make the contract void.

We give chances to be nice. . . We send out emails to parents re hair and CAPR39-1. . . Do you think my staff wants to cut hair. . .

[usafcap1]

Now if you were at my squadron we would give TWO chances before we 'd cut it off. . . but that my squadron.

What gives you the right to cut someone's hair off?

How does paying money to wear a uniform give them any right to disrespect the people who wore it in service to this country? 

Um, yeah, if you tried to cut my hair without permission, you'd be paying for my college. Being non-compliant with regulations doesn't give you the right to touch me or my hair.

We have contracts between cadets, parents, and staff.

And the "contract" isn't worth the paper it is written on.  This is an unpleasant incident waiting to happen.  CAP isn't in the barber business.  If the cadet doesn't comply with the regs show them the door.

I agree, not so much with "If the cadet doesn't comply with the regs show them the door." because we as CAP want more members.

[davidsinn]

I agree, not so much with "If the cadet doesn't comply with the regs show them the door." because we as CAP want more members.

That can follow the rules of the organization.

That's the part you left off the end.

[spacecommand]

We have contracts between cadets, parents, and staff.

it has been made perfectly clear to cadets by command staff what the expectations for hairstyle are, with pictures from 39-1..

I get that and we do that but we then we proceed to said "If you wish to to not comply with CAPR 39-1" dot dot dot  then we would proceed to said " with the permission and compliance from your parents we will cut your hair.

First, I'm really not sure what's going on at your unit from reading all of your posts, with that, CAP isn't in the hair cutting business, parental permission or not. 

If the cadet says "NO" what do you guys do now?  You can't use any force for them to get a hair cut.

This is something to be left with the parents to handle.  If the cadets do not want to comply with regulations, then 2b them out of the organization.

It really should never get to the point where you as a unit have to say to a cadet, "OK you didn't cut your hair after we told you many times, we are going to cut it for you".  In reality, that's a cadet you DON'T want in the unit to begin with. 

[abdsp51]

[qoute}
If the cadet says "NO" what do you guys do now?  You can't use any force for them to get a hair cut.

This is something to be left with the parents to handle.  If the cadets do not want to comply with regulations, then 2b them out of the organization.

It really should never get to the point where you as a unit have to say to a cadet, "OK you didn't cut your hair after we told you many times, we are going to cut it for you".  In reality, that's a cadet you DON'T want in the unit to begin with.
[/quote]

I agree I know if my son/s were in and they came and told me that this was a requirement well there would be a heart to heart with the Sq/CC about this.

Also and if I am wrong please correct but most states prohibit a minor from engaging in any type of Contract.  There are plenty of ways to handle a member who does not want to play by the rules. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I agree I know if my son/s were in and they came and told me that this was a requirement well there would be a heart to heart with the Sq/CC about this.

I would be asking a lot of questions.

Also and if I am wrong please correct but most states prohibit a minor from engaging in any type of Contract. 

Correct, I believe.  Could one of our legal eagles (Ned) confirm?

There are plenty of ways to handle a member who does not want to play by the rules.

Hopefully short of a Form 2B.

Restriction from activities, verbal reprimand, notes of reprimand in a personnel file - all of those can be effective.  If the member just decides to quit, this is going to sound nasty, and I don't mean it to, but we didn't need him/her to begin with.

[abdsp51]

Hopefully short of a Form 2B.

Most definitely short of that.  On something simple as this definitely not unless there was a rash of other behavior. 

[RogueLeader]

Hopefully short of a Form 2B.

Most definitely short of that.  On something simple as this definitely not unless there was a rash of other behavior.

Such as:

You will not promote until you are in compliance with 39-1.   

[Ned]

Also and if I am wrong please correct but most states prohibit a minor from engaging in any type of Contract. 

Correct, I believe.  Could one of our legal eagles (Ned) confirm?

Without derailing the thread, I did want to comment that CAP has had cadets signing contracts for decades.  Heck, WIWAC, we had to sign a contract with our squadron commander for each achievement indicating when we would take our tests, etc.  This was a Jack Sorensen thing to help create "buy-in" and motivate the cadets to progress more or less on schedule.

So, I guess the legal point is that minors can sign contracts all day long.  And frequently do.  And it can be a Good Thing in the CAP context.

The only hitich is when people start filing lawsuits to enforce the contracts.  At that point minority may be a defence to enforcibility. (Many exceptions, varies by state, consult a licensed attorney if you really need to know.)

But there is nothing wrong, per se, with a minor signing a contract.

Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer

[abdsp51]

Not allowed to promote, suspension from activities and anything allowed under regs. 

And Col Lee thank you for that insight. 

I think that as long as parents know what the standard and expectation is then this is avoidable. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Colonel Lee offered information I hadn't known either.

Seriously, if it gets to the point where not being allowed to promote (or even demotion), suspension, etc., have to come into play, I would start to wonder if there weren't more serious underlying behavioural problems.

[Flying Pig]

In my experience I have found that cadets who were really attached to their hair get into CAP and before to long, they end up starting to look like all of the other cadets.  Especially once they start making friends and their cadet/friends start saying "C'mon dude, you need to trim that mop."  Peer pressure isnt always bad

[abdsp51]

In my experience I have found that cadets who were really attached to their hair get into CAP and before to long, they end up starting to look like all of the other cadets.  Especially once they start making friends and their cadet/friends start saying "C'mon dude, you need to trim that mop."  Peer pressure isnt always bad

No it's not and I'm sure most of youth we have in the program would rather have their peers get on them than adults.  Saw it alot in JROTC from folks who thought it would be an easy A would get the boot for not following the guidelines.  Granted that's a different prom but adherence to grooming was a major part of it. 

[RogueLeader]

Colonel Lee offered information I hadn't known either.

Seriously, if it gets to the point where not being allowed to promote (or even demotion), suspension, etc., have to come into play, I would start to wonder if there weren't more serious underlying behavioural problems.

His hair i
If a new male cadet that needs a haircut, he won't make it past C/AB.  If a male cadet is up for promotion, but his hair is too long; his promotion will be waiting on the clippers.

[RiverAux]

It may be ok for a minor to sign such a contract, but what about someone other than a Wing Commander signing for CAP?   Even if these aren't meant to be "serious" contracts, what does the fine print in the regs say about it?

[spacecommand]

Yep, but it isn't up to the squadron itself to cut the cadet's hair.  The cadet has to choose to straighten up and fly right or he's not. 

[SarDragon]

It may be ok for a minor to sign such a contract, but what about someone other than a Wing Commander signing for CAP?   Even if these aren't meant to be "serious" contracts, what does the fine print in the regs say about it?

I was in a cadet unit when the cadet achievement contracts were being used, and they were signed by the cadet and the squadron commander. No big deal. There were expectations of performance for both parties, and specified outcomes.

[usafcap1]

Two points - the only members who can sign contracts in CAP are Wing CC's or other corporate officers, further, you cannot sign an
agreement which essentially says "it's OK to abuse me".  We all realize this is not your doing, and your CC is likely well intentioned,
but this is simply not what CAP is about, and we all know which road is paved with good intentions.

We require voluntary compliance with regs to participate, and do not coerce people beyond positive peer pressure or the withholding of opportunity.  Anything else is just wrong and not in keeping with our core values, senior or cadet.

A few times but we have contracts cadets, parents, and staff sign them.

1) I fully understand that but I don't and didn't make this rule.

2) This is based on my previous experience. Our old DCC made this rule and our staff follows them like they were made by God. BUT none the less. . . I'm dropping this topic re "How my squadron enforces CAPM 39-1". Lets get back to the original topic "I really want to join CAP, DO I have to cut my hair?" (emphasis added to correct myself)

[SarDragon]

Lets get back to the original topic "I really want to join CAP, DO I have to cut my hair?" (emphasis added to correct myself)

Yes.

Game, set, match.

[AngelWings]

Lets get back to the original topic "I really want to join CAP, DO I have to cut my hair?" (emphasis added to correct myself)

Yes.

Game, set, match.

+1