CAP Talk

Operations => Tall Tales => Topic started by: Pulsar on October 13, 2013, 04:43:14 PM

Title: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Pulsar on October 13, 2013, 04:43:14 PM
I would like to read other cadets' or former cadets experiences at in processing (training Day 00) at their Encampment.

My memory:

It was a bright, mostly sunny day when 2 other male cadets and I arrived at Fort Indiantown Gap, pa; [ JUN 22/2013; 1100L time] we were the first sign in's. We shuffled nervously about checking our gear in and getting our CAPIDs scanned. Everyone greeted us cordially, "Welcome to Encampment." Everything was fine; everything perfect...or so we thought......            Encampment really began in the vans on the way to our barracks. My friends and I were talking and joking when the van stopped...We hadn't even noticed when we heard: "[BANG!!--BANG-BANG!!!] -the van door is torn open.- a female officer stands yelling: "WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!!-SITTING WASTING TIME?!!-OUT!!OUT!! GET OUT OF THIS VAN!!!!...ARE YOU GONNA THANK THE DRIVER!?!-HUGH-HUGH?!! ARE YOU THAT DISRESCECTFUL?!!!"  Everything happened so fast; this and that- on and on- everything was chaos for us cadets.  A few seconds later, I found myself standing near a wall at attention. All one could hear was staff yelling and screaming at cadets. I was alone...utterly ALONE ( I was the first female cadet there; I was in Sqd. 30 which is an all- female sqd.)

For what seemed like hours I was tested on the cadet oath, honor code, core values, and countless other things. Every little mistake I made was yelled in my face. Finally, other females arrive. After running to get our gear from the trucks, we are formed in a line in front of the barracks door. We are told to report to the officer upstairs. The first cadet tries. She is screamed at for not greeting nearby officers hiding behind the door. On and on- every cadet failed at something. Finally it gets to me; I greet correctly, do everything satisfactory, go upstairs, and report correctly. -I even write my information. But I hear: "IS THIS WHERE I PUT MY PEN?!!!" I try to answer but instead he says: "WRONG!!! END OF THE LINE!" So much for signing in. Anyway, after all the cadets finally satisfactorily sign in, we are escorted into the barracks. I was told to find a rack and open or dump out all me stuff onto it. A nice SM begins to inspect my gear. "finally-a nice person", I think. After that is over I am given sheets and told to choose another rack and make it. As I walk by, other shaky and nervous cadets greet me (thinking me a staff member). I say, "Hey guys, chill out. I'm a student here too. Be careful who you greet! You will get in trouble." (I was a C/SMSgt)  I continue to my rack. The longest day of my life continues......



Ok, that was my experience. Many girls and... boys cried that first day. Encampment is so different from everyday life. (for me anyways).
Also, when you post, I would like true experiences. Thank you. I love hearing about different wings encampments.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 13, 2013, 05:13:43 PM
Wow...
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Eclipse on October 13, 2013, 06:13:11 PM
Double wow. 
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Fubar on October 14, 2013, 12:38:08 AM
Certainly explains why HQ is developing a new curriculum that doesn't give wings a lot of leeway for "local customs" such as these.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on October 14, 2013, 12:48:55 AM
And this happened in 2013?

Retrograde. I thought you were describing an Encampment from 1960.

Flyer
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: raivo on October 14, 2013, 02:40:14 AM
Infinite-wow.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Elioron on October 14, 2013, 03:23:25 AM
With a few exceptions, this is similar to what I've seen in my limited experience staffing encampments.  That being said, looking only at Day 00 is incredibly myopic.  It's like looking at only the start of a race and getting upset that there was a gunshot and yelling (someone because someone yelled "GO!!").

Minor Exception: Our in-processing is at a intensity level of about 3-4 (1 being asleep and 10 being extremely stressed).  Cadets sign in, go to their barracks, meet their TAC Officer for bag check, and are told to sit in the shade along the outside wall and read their SOPs.

Major Exceptions: Cadets are never set up to fail.  There is no reason to manufacture failure - they will make more than enough mistakes to teach and being set up teaches nothing.  There is no yelling in people's faces, but once the Big Bang begins, there is yelling.  Intensity is at 9.

Big Bang is meant to be an emotional shock.  Failure is called out loudly, but not to the individual.  The entire flight is admonished - fail as a flight, succeed as a flight.  Almost every cadet wonders what they signed up for and tears are not uncommon, but not the majority by far.  Most of the tears are generally caused by homesickness or lack of readiness (never having spent the night away from home before, for instance, is not uncommon).  Careful control through the TAC Officers and experienced staff continually monitor the line staff to ensure that they don't go overboard.  Staff Training itself is several days at the facility beforehand, and much of it deals with how to instill intensity safely.

The curriculum scales back intensity continually throughout the week until it gets back to 5-6 by Friday (similar to a typical class in a school).
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: ol'fido on October 14, 2013, 10:23:01 AM
I would like to read other cadets' or former cadets experiences at in processing (training Day 00) at their Encampment.

My memory:

It was a bright, mostly sunny day when 2 other male cadets and I arrived at Fort Indiantown Gap, pa; [ JUN 22/2013; 1100L time] we were the first sign in's. We shuffled nervously about checking our gear in and getting our CAPIDs scanned. Everyone greeted us cordially, "Welcome to Encampment." Everything was fine; everything perfect...or so we thought......            Encampment really began in the vans on the way to our barracks. My friends and I were talking and joking when the van stopped...We hadn't even noticed when we heard: "[BANG!!--BANG-BANG!!!] -the van door is torn open.- a female officer stands yelling: "WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!!-SITTING WASTING TIME?!!-OUT!!OUT!! GET OUT OF THIS VAN!!!!...ARE YOU GONNA THANK THE DRIVER!?!-HUGH-HUGH?!! ARE YOU THAT DISRESCECTFUL?!!!"  Everything happened so fast; this and that- on and on- everything was chaos for us cadets.  A few seconds later, I found myself standing near a wall at attention. All one could hear was staff yelling and screaming at cadets. I was alone...utterly ALONE ( I was the first female cadet there; I was in Sqd. 30 which is an all- female sqd.)

For what seemed like hours I was tested on the cadet oath, honor code, core values, and countless other things. Every little mistake I made was yelled in my face. Finally, other females arrive. After running to get our gear from the trucks, we are formed in a line in front of the barracks door. We are told to report to the officer upstairs. The first cadet tries. She is screamed at for not greeting nearby officers hiding behind the door. On and on- every cadet failed at something. Finally it gets to me; I greet correctly, do everything satisfactory, go upstairs, and report correctly. -I even write my information. But I hear: "IS THIS WHERE I PUT MY PEN?!!!" I try to answer but instead he says: "WRONG!!! END OF THE LINE!" So much for signing in. Anyway, after all the cadets finally satisfactorily sign in, we are escorted into the barracks. I was told to find a rack and open or dump out all me stuff onto it. A nice SM begins to inspect my gear. "finally-a nice person", I think. After that is over I am given sheets and told to choose another rack and make it. As I walk by, other shaky and nervous cadets greet me (thinking me a staff member). I say, "Hey guys, chill out. I'm a student here too. Be careful who you greet! You will get in trouble." (I was a C/SMSgt)  I continue to my rack. The longest day of my life continues......



Ok, that was my experience. Many girls and... boys cried that first day. Encampment is so different from everyday life. (for me anyways).
Also, when you post, I would like true experiences. Thank you. I love hearing about different wings encampments.
Just what we have been trying for years to eliminate.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 14, 2013, 10:32:21 AM
No kidding. You would think with the draft guide out they would at least check how they measure up to it...
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Eclipse on October 14, 2013, 10:50:28 AM
What this organization needs are the equivalent of UN inspectors to visit every encampment and similar activity to make sure things are done properly.
This was supposed to be CAP-USAF's role to a certain extent, but we all know that many encampments were never given more then cursory attention,
and now with the recent reductions in RAPs and SDs (from about 50% manning before), they no longer have the ability for any real impact, not to mention
that the encampment approval is now up to the Wing CC instead of the SD.

Another area where baseline expectations get "adjusted" by local commanders and staff.

Why is it people never fudge the line in the right direction?  And in the last year or so, it's almost as if some activities are trying to
"get one more in before the new rules...".

Here's an idea - take the effort and expense wasted on SUIs and CIs and focus it on mission-centric activities that actually have an impact
on the member experience.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: ol'fido on October 14, 2013, 11:01:30 AM
98% of the new curriculum we do already. The other two percent is schedule adjustment. It's not hard. We try to find the middle ground between the "boot camp, semper psycho" mentality and the "let's all hold hands and sing Kumbaya" thing. Like I said, it's not difficult. Set standards. Enforce the standards. Do so in a professional manner. Don't go overboard.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on October 14, 2013, 11:12:01 AM
Oh my God!

You should NOT have mentioned Kumbaya!

Now I cannot take the image off my mind of Eclipse, USAFAux, SARMed and Lord all singing Kumbaya on Blues at the top of a hill...

Flyer

 
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: lordmonar on October 14, 2013, 11:22:11 AM
What this organization needs are the equivalent of UN inspectors to visit every encampment and similar activity to make sure things are done properly.
This was supposed to be CAP-USAF's role to a certain extent, but we all know that many encampments were never given more then cursory attention,
and now with the recent reductions in RAPs and SDs (from about 50% manning before), they no longer have the ability for any real impact, not to mention
that the encampment approval is now up to the Wing CC instead of the SD.

Another area where baseline expectations get "adjusted" by local commanders and staff.

Why is it people never fudge the line in the right direction?  And in the last year or so, it's almost as if some activities are trying to
"get one more in before the new rules...".

Here's an idea - take the effort and expense wasted on SUIs and CIs and focus it on mission-centric activities that actually have an impact
on the member experience.
+1

We need to have a "National Camp School" (to steal from the BSA again) where each wing must send a few members to each year.   This is where they learn the standards and help set the base line.

We also need NHQ to send an inspector to each encampment (at least for 1 day) to see what's going on and help curb this sort of thing.

Also.....instead of wing level encampments......what about regional level encampments that run 4-5 sessions per summer?

Easier to control content of only 8+/- programs instead of 50+/- programs.
Cheaper in the we are not re-inventing the wheel at 50 +/- locations.
Transportation may be an issue.....but if you can travel all the way across TX or CA to get to an encampment.....going to the regional facility is not going to be a deal breaker.

Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Pulsar on October 14, 2013, 12:08:17 PM
No kidding. You would think with the draft guide out they would at least check how they measure up to it...
oh don't worry. They do. We had a visit from the vice national commander. There was no hazing; after other cadets arrived, they generally yelled at you as a group; not an individual. and throughout the week it (of course) got less and less intense until we hit graduation (none at all). I did things at encampment I still don't think I can do. People talk about learning from their mistakes. -I learned faster that first day than any other day in my life. It was so worth it and I am so thankful to my staff for how much they put into teaching us. It was awesome now that I think back to it. We had to earn jodies and our guidon like any other squadron. Now I know my staff personally. There're really nice and we never would of got honor squadron of the week without them. My fellow cadets and I also became the best of friends; We really are a team.

Anyway, back to the draft thing. I am sad about them taking fire watch away. There was a SM making rounds as well, but the best times happened on fire watch.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Pulsar on October 14, 2013, 12:29:19 PM
With a few exceptions, this is similar to what I've seen in my limited experience staffing encampments.  That being said, looking only at Day 00 is incredibly myopic.  It's like looking at only the start of a race and getting upset that there was a gunshot and yelling (someone because someone yelled "GO!!").

Minor Exception: Our in-processing is at a intensity level of about 3-4 (1 being asleep and 10 being extremely stressed).  Cadets sign in, go to their barracks, meet their TAC Officer for bag check, and are told to sit in the shade along the outside wall and read their SOPs.

Major Exceptions: Cadets are never set up to fail.  There is no reason to manufacture failure - they will make more than enough mistakes to teach and being set up teaches nothing.  There is no yelling in people's faces, but once the Big Bang begins, there is yelling.  Intensity is at 9.

Big Bang is meant to be an emotional shock.  Failure is called out loudly, but not to the individual.  The entire flight is admonished - fail as a flight, succeed as a flight.  Almost every cadet wonders what they signed up for and tears are not uncommon, but not the majority by far.  Most of the tears are generally caused by homesickness or lack of readiness (never having spent the night away from home before, for instance, is not uncommon).  Careful control through the TAC Officers and experienced staff continually monitor the line staff to ensure that they don't go overboard.  Staff Training itself is several days at the facility beforehand, and much of it deals with how to instill intensity safely.

The curriculum scales back intensity continually throughout the week until it gets back to 5-6 by Friday (similart to a typical class in a school).

The TAC officers did supervise and observe. The yelling was a few instances in peoples faces (more so at the beginning. Like with my experience. ). After other cadets arrive it is more as a group. They would only single you out if they really needed to and repeatedly made the same mistake. I was a proud peacock so I needed it. They expected more of me because I was a C/SMSgt.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: ol'fido on October 14, 2013, 01:01:14 PM
With a few exceptions, this is similar to what I've seen in my limited experience staffing encampments.  That being said, looking only at Day 00 is incredibly myopic.  It's like looking at only the start of a race and getting upset that there was a gunshot and yelling (someone because someone yelled "GO!!").

Minor Exception: Our in-processing is at a intensity level of about 3-4 (1 being asleep and 10 being extremely stressed).  Cadets sign in, go to their barracks, meet their TAC Officer for bag check, and are told to sit in the shade along the outside wall and read their SOPs.

Major Exceptions: Cadets are never set up to fail.  There is no reason to manufacture failure - they will make more than enough mistakes to teach and being set up teaches nothing.  There is no yelling in people's faces, but once the Big Bang begins, there is yelling.  Intensity is at 9.

Big Bang is meant to be an emotional shock.  Failure is called out loudly, but not to the individual.  The entire flight is admonished - fail as a flight, succeed as a flight.  Almost every cadet wonders what they signed up for and tears are not uncommon, but not the majority by far.  Most of the tears are generally caused by homesickness or lack of readiness (never having spent the night away from home before, for instance, is not uncommon).  Careful control through the TAC Officers and experienced staff continually monitor the line staff to ensure that they don't go overboard.  Staff Training itself is several days at the facility beforehand, and much of it deals with how to instill intensity safely.

The curriculum scales back intensity continually throughout the week until it gets back to 5-6 by Friday (similart to a typical class in a school).

The TAC officers did supervise and observe. The yelling was a few instances in peoples faces (more so at the beginning. Like with my experience. ). After other cadets arrive it is more as a group. They would only single you out if they really needed to and repeatedly made the same mistake. I was a proud peacock so I needed it. They expected more of me because I was a C/SMSgt.
I'm sorry but this is not the way it should be. This reminds me of the stories I hear about abused wives saying "If I was a better wife, he wouldn't need to hit me." I'm not saying this is anywhere near that level of wrong, but this is the same psychology.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Pulsar on October 14, 2013, 01:10:34 PM
maybe I shouldn't of posted this.  :-[  :-X  ;D
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 14, 2013, 01:14:59 PM
Well, it's out there already. People in high places have seen it now as well. Probably little will be done, but I'm sure there just may (I hope) be a bit more oversight when the new curriculum becomes the law of the land.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Pulsar on October 14, 2013, 01:27:37 PM
Well, it's out there already. People in high places have seen it now as well. Probably little will be done, but I'm sure there just may (I hope) be a bit more oversight when the new curriculum becomes the law of the land.
heh-heh
...yeah  :-[
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Elioron on October 14, 2013, 01:37:42 PM
This reminds me of the stories I hear about abused wives saying "If I was a better wife, he wouldn't need to hit me." I'm not saying this is anywhere near that level of wrong, but this is the same psychology.

That's a pretty huge stretch, there.  That's like saying that yelling at your child is the same as beating them with a stick.  Any parent that says they haven't yelled at their kids is either a liar or has kids that behave horribly.

As a CAP officer and a parent, I can say that I was quite satisfied with the process as both of my sons went through it.  Yelling != "boot camp, semper psycho"
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Eclipse on October 14, 2013, 01:43:26 PM
Yelling != "boot camp, semper psycho"

Been to one lately?  You might be surprised.

Also, since an encampment isn't boot camp, not even basics cadet training, the comparison  is at the same time, inappropriate >and< troubling.

The only reason anyone should be yelling during an encampment, or for that matter any CAP activity, is to be heard over the din.
No one should be "getting into anyone's face" especially one cadet to another,

No.

One.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Elioron on October 14, 2013, 01:54:00 PM
Been to one lately?  You might be surprised.

Been to what?  Encampment?  Yes, the last two years.  My sons completed it the year before.

Also, since an encampment isn't boot camp, not even basics cadet training, the comparison  is at the same time, inappropriate >and< troubling.

I didn't make the comparison.  People seems to do it anytime someone mentions that a voice was raised in the slightest.  Inappropriate and troubling indeed that people would assume loud noises are automatically indicative of abuse.

No one should be "getting into anyone's face" especially one cadet to another,

No.

One.

Nobody's saying they should.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Eclipse on October 14, 2013, 02:00:05 PM
Been to one lately?  You might be surprised.

Been to what?  Encampment?  Yes, the last two years.  My sons completed it the year before.

Basic Military Training.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 14, 2013, 02:02:02 PM
By admission they do in PAWG. I'm just filing this under "I hope I don't move there" as I would seriously have to consider further CAP involvement at that point.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Elioron on October 14, 2013, 02:12:13 PM
Been to one lately?  You might be surprised.

Been to what?  Encampment?  Yes, the last two years.  My sons completed it the year before.

Basic Military Training.

No, but it really doesn't matter.  Yelling does not equal "boot camp"!  It is a correlation that people continually make, but it really doesn't have any merit.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Eclipse on October 14, 2013, 02:26:22 PM
No, but it really doesn't matter.  Yelling does not equal "boot camp"!  It is a correlation that people continually make, but it really doesn't have any merit.

I thought you were advocating the opposite.

"!=" may be a correct symbol for that, but "≠" is more clear.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Elioron on October 14, 2013, 02:31:56 PM
No, but it really doesn't matter.  Yelling does not equal "boot camp"!  It is a correlation that people continually make, but it really doesn't have any merit.

I thought you were advocating the opposite.

"!=" may be a correct symbol for that, but "≠" is more clear.

Sorry. Too much time playing with the code monkeys.  ;D
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 14, 2013, 02:47:22 PM
Been to one lately?  You might be surprised.

Been to what?  Encampment?  Yes, the last two years.  My sons completed it the year before.

Basic Military Training.

No, but it really doesn't matter.  Yelling does not equal "boot camp"!  It is a correlation that people continually make, but it really doesn't have any merit.

Sure doesn't. So if they don't do it at boot, then there's really no place for it at encampment.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Elioron on October 14, 2013, 03:07:47 PM
Sure doesn't. So if they don't do it at boot, then there's really no place for it at encampment.

So I guess I shouldn't yell at my kids at home, either.  Yelling is just awful, right?  ::)

It comes down to your goals.  If all you're trying to do is an individual academic activity and are willing to fail those that don't pass, a standard classroom-type training works fine.  Are parents going to accept paying $200 for their child to go to encampment to find at the end of the week their child didn't graduate and will have to pay another $200 next year?  I don't think so - not for something mandatory for their child's advancement.

If academics is what you're after, encampment should not be mandatory and the required training should be offered at the squadron level.  If you expect cadets to come together that quickly with all of the things we want them to learn, holding hands and singing Kumbaya isn't going to cut it unless you do away with standards (in which case, again, what's the point of encampment).
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Peeka on October 14, 2013, 03:13:05 PM
Sure doesn't. So if they don't do it at boot, then there's really no place for it at encampment.
So I guess I shouldn't yell at my kids at home, either.  Yelling is just awful, right?  ::)

Totally different if you are yelling at other people's kids....

Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 14, 2013, 03:19:21 PM
Sure doesn't. So if they don't do it at boot, then there's really no place for it at encampment.

So I guess I shouldn't yell at my kids at home, either.  Yelling is just awful, right?  ::)

It comes down to your goals.  If all you're trying to do is an individual academic activity and are willing to fail those that don't pass, a standard classroom-type training works fine.  Are parents going to accept paying $200 for their child to go to encampment to find at the end of the week their child didn't graduate and will have to pay another $200 next year?  I don't think so - not for something mandatory for their child's advancement.

If academics is what you're after, encampment should not be mandatory and the required training should be offered at the squadron level.  If you expect cadets to come together that quickly with all of the things we want them to learn, holding hands and singing Kumbaya isn't going to cut it unless you do away with standards (in which case, again, what's the point of encampment).

I've staffed encampments as a cadet and as a SM.

Never once was there a need to YELL IN A CADET'S FACE. Speaking loudly to a group is a skill. Yelling the DI line "GET OFF THE BUS MAGGOTS" shows too much FMJ viewing time, and too little learning about leadership.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Elioron on October 14, 2013, 03:37:50 PM
[Totally different if you are yelling at other people's kids....

I will yell as necessary, particularly to convey urgency or danger.  As far as I'm concerned, cadets under my care are my kids.  I need to teach them and protect them as my own and I take that responsibility very seriously.

Never once was there a need to YELL IN A CADET'S FACE.

Where am I saying it is?  Where is anyone saying it is?  Yelling at the flight to "hurry up, not fast enough let's do it again" is not yelling in people's faces or abuse in any way.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: lordmonar on October 14, 2013, 03:56:17 PM
The FMJ experience is an useful tool when used in the right application and with the proper restraint.

It immediately establishes who is boss to a bunch of kids who don't understand the concept of military discipline.

That said......most CAP cadets already understand this concept.

While a nice "Grab you gear, get off this bus and put your toes on the line!   15, 14, 13...." may be an appropriate tool at encampment.  It sets that tone.  Setting up reporting statements during the shake down "Sir! What!" also sets up the attention to detail.

The no-win, setting up cadets to fail is NOT a good learning tool.

The full on FMJ games should start on Day one but by the end of Day two there should not be a need for it.

IIRC even at USAF BMTS we by the third day or so we did not have any FMJ stuff going on.   Sure our TI yelled at us when we screwed up.  But the in your face just did not happen all that much.  In truth it takes too much time.

We did the pick them up, put them down drill, we did the "do it again" drill with reporting statements "Sir! Airman Harris Reports as Ordered" until we got it right.  But we never got no win situations. 

That's the difference between BMTS and Encampment.   Do the FMJ games early....keep them sane....but drop them and move on.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Elioron on October 14, 2013, 04:27:52 PM
The FMJ experience is an useful tool when used in the right application and with the proper restraint.

It immediately establishes who is boss to a bunch of kids who don't understand the concept of military discipline.

That said......most CAP cadets already understand this concept.

While a nice "Grab you gear, get off this bus and put your toes on the line!   15, 14, 13...." may be an appropriate tool at encampment.  It sets that tone.  Setting up reporting statements during the shake down "Sir! What!" also sets up the attention to detail.

The no-win, setting up cadets to fail is NOT a good learning tool.

The full on FMJ games should start on Day one but by the end of Day two there should not be a need for it.

IIRC even at USAF BMTS we by the third day or so we did not have any FMJ stuff going on.   Sure our TI yelled at us when we screwed up.  But the in your face just did not happen all that much.  In truth it takes too much time.

We did the pick them up, put them down drill, we did the "do it again" drill with reporting statements "Sir! Airman Harris Reports as Ordered" until we got it right.  But we never got no win situations. 

That's the difference between BMTS and Encampment.   Do the FMJ games early....keep them sane....but drop them and move on.

 :clap:

I would clarify "FML" in this case to our version of it: no personal insults or getting in people's faces.  It seems that would be obvious but based on what I've seen it isn't as obvious as we'd like.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 14, 2013, 04:41:06 PM
[Totally different if you are yelling at other people's kids....

I will yell as necessary, particularly to convey urgency or danger.  As far as I'm concerned, cadets under my care are my kids.  I need to teach them and protect them as my own and I take that responsibility very seriously.

Never once was there a need to YELL IN A CADET'S FACE.

Where am I saying it is?  Where is anyone saying it is?  Yelling at the flight to "hurry up, not fast enough let's do it again" is not yelling in people's faces or abuse in any way.

Read the OP again. The opinions up until your posts were based on what is included in the OP. When you started defending yelling, you came off sounding on the side of the antics listed in the OP.

Yelling at appropriate times, as already posted by many is ok. Getting into a cadets face, failing cadets at sign in if the pen is half an inch off the original imagined point, etc, as posted in the OP is NOT OK.

I don't think you are on the page with many of the posters. You seem to have the understanding that works. We're all commenting on what is presented in the OP, which is certainly NOT the type of situations you describe.

S&%T like this: VA Civil Air Patrol Encampment 2011 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuCBegYtelI#ws)

and that other video where cadets had to report to the top of the stairs, while standing in the heat, and being yelled back down for infractions. Thankfully I believe that one was pulled and is gone.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Eclipse on October 14, 2013, 04:56:37 PM
So I guess I shouldn't yell at my kids at home, either.  Yelling is just awful, right?

Actually, you shouldn't.  I do it too, most parents do, but studies and experience show that it generally
doesn't accomplish the ultimate goal, it just makes things worse, and unless you practice the increasingly uncommon
"Nuclear Option" of corporal punishment, it eventually goes nowhere, just as countries threatening each other
with military strikes are considered impotent when they don't follow-through and tyrants when they do.

The first time you threaten a child and go nowhere, you're cooked, and left with nothing else in the tool bag to actually
fix the problem.

It comes down to your goals.  If all you're trying to do is an individual academic activity and are willing to fail those that don't pass, a standard classroom-type training works fine.  Are parents going to accept paying $200 for their child to go to encampment to find at the end of the week their child didn't graduate and will have to pay another $200 next year?  I don't think so - not for something mandatory for their child's advancement.

As a matter of fact, this is exactly what the new curriculum contains in its most current draft, and it's too long coming.

If academics is what you're after, encampment should not be mandatory and the required training should be offered at the squadron level.  If you expect cadets to come together that quickly with all of the things we want them to learn, holding hands and singing Kumbaya isn't going to cut it unless you do away with standards (in which case, again, what's the point of encampment).

An encampment's intended purpose is to enhance training received at the squadron level as well as present CAP in a standardized
way to provide tools and lessons that cadets bring back to their home squadrons to make things better.  Considering that they need Curry to get in, drill, basic discipline, ability to function in small squads, should not be new to any of them.

Owing to the inconsistencies in training across the organization, unfortunately, far too many cadets arrive at encampment
ill-prepared for the totality of the experience.  Many are away from home overnight for the first time in their lives,
may have no one else from their home unit attending, and might well have other issues that are either revealed or exacerbated
by the stress of the environment.  In a lot of cases yelling just shuts them down.

In days of olde, RDC's and DIs could, apparently inflict harm, and certainly PT, to coerce recruits - the yelling had a real threat on the end of it.  We do not have these tools, everyone is a willing volunteer in the process, and most cadets know that threats are hollow at best, beyond legit disciplinary action at which time our only recourse is membership termination.

When a recruit steps off the bus for BMT, he see the DI/TI/RDC as both a mythic-creature of epic experience and a huge gateway
to his ultimate goals.  There are also legal and real-word, whole life imlpications to disobeying. When a CAP cadet steps off the bus at encampment, he see the same goober cadet from his unit who yesterday had trouble with PT and rarely passes his academics on the first shot.  If that cadet starts yelling and acting hard-kewl, he's as likely to get laughed at as to be respected.

Nothing sets command tone and bearing like a cadet who can instruct his cadre in a direct, calm voice that shows
his experience and self-confidence, and nothing destroys it faster then one who runs himself out of breath trying to
emulate something he saw on TV.  Of course most of these cadets are unable to speak by day three, so sometimes it self-corrects.

BMT instructors have all been 'through it" themselves, receive direct and proper training, and then though peer-review before the
can train recruits, our people, simply put, do not.

People can do what they will with their kids, butif you're yelling at cadets for any reason other then to get their initial
attention, you're doing it wrong.

Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Eclipse on October 14, 2013, 04:59:04 PM
and that other video where cadets had to report to the top of the stairs, while standing in the heat, and being yelled back down for infractions. Thankfully I believe that one was pulled and is gone.

Isn't that video in the new RST?

I know it was circulated in a memo nationally that it was a big "no".
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Elioron on October 14, 2013, 05:02:06 PM
When you started defending yelling, you came off sounding on the side of the antics listed in the OP.

I can see that now, thank you.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 14, 2013, 05:23:52 PM
and that other video where cadets had to report to the top of the stairs, while standing in the heat, and being yelled back down for infractions. Thankfully I believe that one was pulled and is gone.

Isn't that video in the new RST?

I know it was circulated in a memo nationally that it was a big "no".

I believe so. Seen so many now...too many.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Elioron on October 14, 2013, 05:33:41 PM
So I guess I shouldn't yell at my kids at home, either.  Yelling is just awful, right?

Actually, you shouldn't.  I do it too, most parents do, but studies and experience show that it generally
doesn't accomplish the ultimate goal, it just makes things worse, and unless you practice the increasingly uncommon
"Nuclear Option" of corporal punishment, it eventually goes nowhere, just as countries threatening each other
with military strikes are considered impotent when they don't follow-through and tyrants when they do.

The first time you threaten a child and go nowhere, you're cooked, and left with nothing else in the tool bag to actually
fix the problem.

You seem to be equating yelling with threats, which it absolutely is not.  Threats, regardless of how loudly they're delivered, have no place in a training environment.

An encampment's intended purpose is to enhance training received at the squadron level as well present CAP in a standardized
way to provide tools and lessons that cadets bring back to their home squadrons to make things better.  Considering that they need Curry to get in, drill, basic discipline, ability to function in small squads, should not be new to any of them.

I would also argue that the purpose of encampment is to push cadets to show that they are more capable than they may think.  It is one of the most consistent things I've heard from cadets that go through it.  They gain a sense of accomplishment and a realization that by getting pushed out of their comfort zone they can work with their team and excel.

Owing to the inconsistencies in training across the organization, unfortunately, far too many cadets arrive at encampment
ill-prepared for the totality of the experience.  Many are away from home overnight for the first time in their lives,
may have no one else from their home unit attending, and might well have other issues that are either revealed or exacerbated
by the stress of the environment.  IN a lot of cases yelling just shuts them down.

That's why TAC officers are ever-present and vigilant.  The entire job of the TAC officer is to make sure that those cadets who are having these issues are cared for and counseled.  If they can't handle stress, they are going to have other issues in CAP (and life) and other accommodations may need to be created.  If they aren't able to cope, they are sent home so their parents and squadron staff can work with them.  In the two encampments with hundreds of cadets, none went home because they couldn't handle the stress.  Note that there is a difference between not wanting to deal with stress and not being able to deal with stress.  Giving cadets the option not to deal with it and being accepting of that is a huge disservice to them.

People can do what they will with their kids, butif you're yelling at cadets for any reason other then to get their initial
attention, you're doing it wrong.

Yelling has several purposes within our culture.  While it can be used to convey anger and intimidation, it can also convey urgency or excitement, used for emphasis, and for communicating over distance.  There are plenty of reasons to yell, and it doesn't mean you're doing it wrong.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Fubar on October 14, 2013, 05:43:03 PM
Big Bang is meant to be an emotional shock.

For most of the cadets (especially the younger cadets), the being away from home, being somewhere they're unfamiliar with, and starting an adventure that is completely unknown to them is enough of a shock.

Besides, I keep reading CAPR 52-16, and the draft encampment regulation and I just can't find where we're supposed to provide an emotional shock to our cadets. I know I haven't been sufficiently trained on how to emotionally shock a 12 year old (it's never been covered during RST or TLC), but perhaps my wing is behind the times.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Pulsar on October 14, 2013, 05:57:15 PM
By admission they do in PAWG. I'm just filing this under "I hope I don't move there" as I would seriously have to consider further CAP involvement at that point.

Ohhh, my. That's just great. -I'm scaring people away from PAWG. I feel I have gotten some of the best training to be a follower in CAP. I've only known one cadet that has been to PAWG encampment and not loved it at the end.

The first two days are the hardest but we do tons of fun stuff and make lots of friends. You think you're being pushed to the limit. But then you come to realize that, hey, the staff are people. They make mistakes, but they have to put in so much more. They have responsibility over the entire team. They have to make sure you get where you are going, get up, and countless other things. Then you realize how much they put in to train you. I'm not talking about just the yelling. -I am talking about everything.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Pulsar on October 14, 2013, 06:02:10 PM
So I guess I shouldn't yell at my kids at home, either.  Yelling is just awful, right?

Actually, you shouldn't.  I do it too, most parents do, but studies and experience show that it generally
doesn't accomplish the ultimate goal, it just makes things worse, and unless you practice the increasingly uncommon
"Nuclear Option" of corporal punishment, it eventually goes nowhere, just as countries threatening each other
with military strikes are considered impotent when they don't follow-through and tyrants when they do.

The first time you threaten a child and go nowhere, you're cooked, and left with nothing else in the tool bag to actually
fix the problem.

It comes down to your goals.  If all you're trying to do is an individual academic activity and are willing to fail those that don't pass, a standard classroom-type training works fine.  Are parents going to accept paying $200 for their child to go to encampment to find at the end of the week their child didn't graduate and will have to pay another $200 next year?  I don't think so - not for something mandatory for their child's advancement.

As a matter of fact, this is exactly what the new curriculum contains in its most current draft, and it's too long coming.

If academics is what you're after, encampment should not be mandatory and the required training should be offered at the squadron level.  If you expect cadets to come together that quickly with all of the things we want them to learn, holding hands and singing Kumbaya isn't going to cut it unless you do away with standards (in which case, again, what's the point of encampment).

An encampment's intended purpose is to enhance training received at the squadron level as well as present CAP in a standardized
way to provide tools and lessons that cadets bring back to their home squadrons to make things better.  Considering that they need Curry to get in, drill, basic discipline, ability to function in small squads, should not be new to any of them.

Owing to the inconsistencies in training across the organization, unfortunately, far too many cadets arrive at encampment
ill-prepared for the totality of the experience.  Many are away from home overnight for the first time in their lives,
may have no one else from their home unit attending, and might well have other issues that are either revealed or exacerbated
by the stress of the environment.  In a lot of cases yelling just shuts them down.

In days of olde, RDC's and DIs could, apparently inflict harm, and certainly PT, to coerce recruits - the yelling had a real threat on the end of it.  We do not have these tools, everyone is a willing volunteer in the process, and most cadets know that threats are hollow at best, beyond legit disciplinary action at which time our only recourse is membership termination.

When a recruit steps off the bus for BMT, he see the DI/TI/RDC as both a mythic-creature of epic experience and a huge gateway
to his ultimate goals.  There are also legal and real-word, whole life imlpications to disobeying. When a CAP cadet steps off the bus at encampment, he see the same goober cadet from his unit who yesterday had trouble with PT and rarely passes his academics on the first shot.  If that cadet starts yelling and acting hard-kewl, he's as likely to get laughed at as to be respected.

Nothing sets command tone and bearing like a cadet who can instruct his cadre in a direct, calm voice that shows
his experience and self-confidence, and nothing destroys it faster then one who runs himself out of breath trying to
emulate something he saw on TV.  Of course most of these cadets are unable to speak by day three, so sometimes it self-corrects.

BMT instructors have all been 'through it" themselves, receive direct and proper training, and then though peer-review before the
can train recruits, our people, simply put, do not.

People can do what they will with their kids, butif you're yelling at cadets for any reason other then to get their initial
attention, you're doing it wrong.

I've seen this before. It's up there. But its still not like PAWG. For one thing, PAWG never takes picture or video of staff really yelling.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: ol'fido on October 14, 2013, 06:09:27 PM
I just did a recount. Next year will mark my 21st encampment in CAP. Never in all that time, did I get the "in your face" treatment. I didn't get it as a cadet and wouldn't tolerate it as a senior. I would not even tolerate it the first couple of days with our cadets.

You cannot play "Mr. Nice Guy" or start out at medium intensity and ratchet it up as needed. The staff needs to be firm, professional, and intense without the need for yelling or in-your-face antics. The cadets need clear and challenging but obtainable goals and tasks to complete all through the week. The pressure comes from the schedule, the expectation of excellence, and the desire not to be "that cadet" that let everyone down.  It does not come from being yelled at. Constant yelling at a group becomes white noise after a while. It loses effectiveness with frequency in other words. Constant yelling at an individual may result in that cadet performing better, but it is just as likely to make that cadet fall even farther behind as they try to deal with the constant demands that they may not be ready for or they may give up all together. The best you can hope for is that they do enough not to get yelled at. That's not what we want.

On the other hand, if you try to do the "New Age", non-competitive, everybody gets a prize type of encampment, the cadets will learn that mediocrity is acceptable. They will not be challenged. They will think along the lines of "why do I have to get up early, go to all these boring classes, make my bed right, etc." if no matter what I do they are going to give me the ribbon, the certificate, and the magic "Mitchell Award" sign off. That isn't what we want either.

How do you find the middle ground here? First, you have a well thought out, organized, and competent program. Then you have staff, both senior and cadet, that are trained, experienced, and willing to try the harder way to do things. Yes, I said the harder way to do things. Any bozo can yell at a cadet and run them all over the place til they are ready to collapse. It takes someone with some talent to get results from a cadet without resorting to yelling or in-your-face tactics, but it can be done. The other thing you do is to avoid stagnation. Cadets and seniors should move up and do something different. Seniors may have the same job for a couple of years, but your cadets should move up regularly. Circumstances may dictate that a cadet return to the same position for a second year but this should be avoided if possible. In this way, your senior cadets can train the new cadets that are coming up. They can also help to establish your encampments "culture" for years to come. It's up to the seniors to decide what the culture will be. It can also take years to root out a bad culture.

This all boils down to leadership. Leadership that is competent and compassionate.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Eclipse on October 14, 2013, 06:14:26 PM
^ This, all the way, all day.

I've heard too many stories of encampments and similar activities being handled like long unit meetings - poor or no plan,
wing it when you get there, fall back on yelling and drill.

That might get you through the week, but it defeats the purpose.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Pulsar on October 14, 2013, 06:19:44 PM
I just did a recount. Next year will mark my 21st encampment in CAP. Never in all that time, did I get the "in your face" treatment. I didn't get it as a cadet and wouldn't tolerate it as a senior. I would not even tolerate it the first couple of days with our cadets.

You cannot play "Mr. Nice Guy" or start out at medium intensity and ratchet it up as needed. The staff needs to be firm, professional, and intense without the need for yelling or in-your-face antics. The cadets need clear and challenging but obtainable goals and tasks to complete all through the week. The pressure comes from the schedule, the expectation of excellence, and the desire not to be "that cadet" that let everyone down.  It does not come from being yelled at. Constant yelling at a group becomes white noise after a while. It loses effectiveness with frequency in other words. Constant yelling at an individual may result in that cadet performing better, but it is just as likely to make that cadet fall even farther behind as they try to deal with the constant demands that they may not be ready for or they may give up all together. The best you can hope for is that they do enough not to get yelled at. That's not what we want.

On the other hand, if you try to do the "New Age", non-competitive, everybody gets a prize type of encampment, the cadets will learn that mediocrity is acceptable. They will not be challenged. They will think along the lines of "why do I have to get up early, go to all these boring classes, make my bed right, etc." if no matter what I do they are going to give me the ribbon, the certificate, and the magic "Mitchell Award" sign off. That isn't what we want either.



:clap: - for a tiny bit of it.
Like I said, there were only a handful of instances at the very beginning. Only certain male staff would really get in your face. Generally, the staff would yell at you as a group.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Pulsar on October 14, 2013, 06:23:43 PM
^ This, all the way, all day.

I've heard too many stories of encampments and similar activities being handled like long unit meetings - poor or no plan,
wing it when you get there, fall back on yelling and drill.

That might get you through the week, but it defeats the purpose.

it was quite organized. quite
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: ol'fido on October 14, 2013, 06:33:01 PM
I just did a recount. Next year will mark my 21st encampment in CAP. Never in all that time, did I get the "in your face" treatment. I didn't get it as a cadet and wouldn't tolerate it as a senior. I would not even tolerate it the first couple of days with our cadets.

You cannot play "Mr. Nice Guy" or start out at medium intensity and ratchet it up as needed. The staff needs to be firm, professional, and intense without the need for yelling or in-your-face antics. The cadets need clear and challenging but obtainable goals and tasks to complete all through the week. The pressure comes from the schedule, the expectation of excellence, and the desire not to be "that cadet" that let everyone down.  It does not come from being yelled at. Constant yelling at a group becomes white noise after a while. It loses effectiveness with frequency in other words. Constant yelling at an individual may result in that cadet performing better, but it is just as likely to make that cadet fall even farther behind as they try to deal with the constant demands that they may not be ready for or they may give up all together. The best you can hope for is that they do enough not to get yelled at. That's not what we want.

On the other hand, if you try to do the "New Age", non-competitive, everybody gets a prize type of encampment, the cadets will learn that mediocrity is acceptable. They will not be challenged. They will think along the lines of "why do I have to get up early, go to all these boring classes, make my bed right, etc." if no matter what I do they are going to give me the ribbon, the certificate, and the magic "Mitchell Award" sign off. That isn't what we want either.



:clap:  :clap: (thanx)
Like I said, there were only a handful of instances at the very beginning. Only certain male staff would really get in your face. Generally, the staff would yell at you as a group.
Do this then. Go back as cadet staff. If you turn senior, go back as senior staff. YOU can start changing the culture of the encampment in ways beyond your rank or age. If you show the in-your-face types that you can get just as good a result without the yelling, it's a start. I went back as senior in 1997 after hearing some stories like yours from my cadets. I found that they were in some cases exaggeration but in too many they were true. I was a squadron TAC. Myself and a few friends kept coming back and doing different things until this next year when I will be in command of the encampment. In those years, the three or four of us who started out as junior captains were able to substantially change the culture of our encampment. YOU can do the same.

Randy L. Mitchell
LtCol, CAP
Commander, 2014 ILWG Summer Encampment
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Pulsar on October 14, 2013, 07:54:05 PM
I just did a recount. Next year will mark my 21st encampment in CAP. Never in all that time, did I get the "in your face" treatment. I didn't get it as a cadet and wouldn't tolerate it as a senior. I would not even tolerate it the first couple of days with our cadets.

You cannot play "Mr. Nice Guy" or start out at medium intensity and ratchet it up as needed. The staff needs to be firm, professional, and intense without the need for yelling or in-your-face antics. The cadets need clear and challenging but obtainable goals and tasks to complete all through the week. The pressure comes from the schedule, the expectation of excellence, and the desire not to be "that cadet" that let everyone down.  It does not come from being yelled at. Constant yelling at a group becomes white noise after a while. It loses effectiveness with frequency in other words. Constant yelling at an individual may result in that cadet performing better, but it is just as likely to make that cadet fall even farther behind as they try to deal with the constant demands that they may not be ready for or they may give up all together. The best you can hope for is that they do enough not to get yelled at. That's not what we want.

On the other hand, if you try to do the "New Age", non-competitive, everybody gets a prize type of encampment, the cadets will learn that mediocrity is acceptable. They will not be challenged. They will think along the lines of "why do I have to get up early, go to all these boring classes, make my bed right, etc." if no matter what I do they are going to give me the ribbon, the certificate, and the magic "Mitchell Award" sign off. That isn't what we want either.



:clap:  :clap: (thanx)
Like I said, there were only a handful of instances at the very beginning. Only certain male staff would really get in your face. Generally, the staff would yell at you as a group.
Do this then. Go back as cadet staff. If you turn senior, go back as senior staff. YOU can start changing the culture of the encampment in ways beyond your rank or age. If you show the in-your-face types that you can get just as good a result without the yelling, it's a start. I went back as senior in 1997 after hearing some stories like yours from my cadets. I found that they were in some cases exaggeration but in too many they were true. I was a squadron TAC. Myself and a few friends kept coming back and doing different things until this next year when I will be in command of the encampment. In those years, the three or four of us who started out as junior captains were able to substantially change the culture of our encampment. YOU can do the same.

Randy L. Mitchell
LtCol, CAP
Commander, 2014 ILWG Summer Encampment

I would like to do that. But Let me rephrase: "I agree with a few sentences he said". I still lean way toward Elioron. I don't think it's okay to go too overboard. I think yelling is a great tool (for an encampment; not for leadership in a weekly meeting), but in-your-face for a cadet is a little much.  But then we have to get into the definitions of "overboard" and of course we're already way off the original topic.  I still hold to that I  received some of the absolute best training in followership one could ask for in CAP - from an encampment. I loved ENC and so did everyone else in my squadron.
sorry if I misstated my opinion.  :-[
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: SarDragon on October 14, 2013, 11:23:48 PM
Yelling has several purposes within our culture.  While it can be used to convey anger and intimidation, it can also convey urgency or excitement, used for emphasis, and for communicating over distance.  There are plenty of reasons to yell, and it doesn't mean you're doing it wrong.

You're getting wrapped around the axle with the yelling thing.

Don't.

It is only a lesser part of the behaviour in the OP, and you are consistently ignoring that. The reasons they were being yelled at were just as bad, and that's the bigger part of the problem.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Elioron on October 15, 2013, 12:09:06 AM
You're getting wrapped around the axle with the yelling thing.

Don't.

Yes, sir.  I have mistaken some posts that were in response to the OP to be responding to other replies I've made.

It is only a lesser part of the behaviour in the OP, and you are consistently ignoring that. The reasons they were being yelled at were just as bad, and that's the bigger part of the problem.

I agree that the behavior described was bad, regardless of the yelling.  My point was to separate yelling from abuse, as it seems that some respondents are stating that yelling in any way around cadets is abusive.  I've heard this before and know of people who wholeheartedly believe it (with all children, not just cadets).  I believe that such a model would be harmful.  If members (particularly SMs) are worried that they could be suspended for hazing because they spoke too loudly and someone complained it would discourage members from speaking up when they should.  This isn't directly included in the OP, but it is related to some of the responses and something I've dealt with recently (with other parents outside of CAP).
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: BillB on October 15, 2013, 06:58:16 AM
There is no justification for yelling at cadets at a squadron meeting. However, encampments are a totally different animal. As one former Wing Commander told me, "encampments are a short period of time to correct the errors at the squadron level." Even then yelling is not fully justified after the 2nd day of an encampment. Errors might include D&C uniforms, or other aspects of the military bearing found in lazy squadrons. Encapments are not boot camp, but there are aspects of a boot camp for Basics at an encampment until the Flight Commanders learn the weakness's of each individual. A loud voice, maybe not yelling works wonders on the 1st or 2nd day and at the Flight level only. The key is to put your sharpest cadets in leadership positions at the Flight and Squadron level.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Ned on October 15, 2013, 12:11:34 PM
Sorry to be a bit late to this interesting thread.

Initially, I'd like to note that the word "yelling" is a little fuzzy in this context and does not mean the same thing to everyone here.  For some, "yelling" means "to say something very loudly because you are angry, surprised, or trying to get someone's attention" (Merriam - Webster).  For others, it simply means "to shout at a loud volume" (Cambridge Dictionary).

That's one of the reasons I avoided using the term in the  Cadet Protection Policy Implementation Guide  (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P052_023_7B9F3810999BF.pdf), which discusses military intensity levels at CAP activities.

But I think we can all agree that a raised voice can sometimes be a useful tool in every leader's tool box.  And like every other tool, a raised voice can be misused or ineffective when used incorrectly.

There is nothing inherently wrong with raising your voice in a military training situation.  Learning when and how to use that tool is just one of the things we teach in our leadership laboratory.

Ultimately, much of the discussion here is about how to define the "look and feel" of encampment, and how to effectively communicate that to CP leaders so that they can reliably recreate it at their own activities.

Most of us "know how to do encampment" because we have been to encampment before.  Sometimes several times.  But relatively few of us have an opportunity to go to encampments in other wings, so it is probably inevitable that there is significant variation in how the wings go about their encampments.

We have discussed at some length in other threads how difficult it is to define and describe what we call the military intensity level.  Even our colleagues in the armed forces have had some difficulty in this regard.  We all recognize it when we see it; but trying to clearly put into words the difference between Lackland and Llama camp in a way that is easily understood by seniors, cadets, and parents is tricky stuff.

Which is why NHQ wrote the 52-23, The Cadet Protection Policy Implementation Guide.  It has been out for a couple of years now, and provides leaders a tool to define and set intensity levels at all cadet activities, including encampment.





We need to have a "National Camp School" (to steal from the BSA again) where each wing must send a few members to each year.   This is where they learn the standards and help set the base line.

It's a terrific idea, and one that we seriously considered.  But we couldn't make the numbers work.  Just a couple of air fares to Maxwell AFB every year is larger than the entire budget of many wing CP directorates.

Quote
We also need NHQ to send an inspector to each encampment (at least for 1 day) to see what's going on and help curb this sort of thing.

Believe me, we would love to do that.  But the entire NHQ cadet section consists of just two folks these days (down from five just three years ago).  And they are already overtasked with running the section, writing doctrine, and coordinating our many outstanding NCSAs (which also take place in the summer.)  Not to mention the significant amount of travel money it would take to send a NHQ visitor to each of the roughly 40 encampments that are held throughout the organization.

We do try to send some of the volunteer national CP staffers to an event or two each year, but again, resources are simply not there to support significant amounts of volunteer travel.

Quote
Also.....instead of wing level encampments......what about regional level encampments that run 4-5 sessions per summer?
Easier to control content of only 8+/- programs instead of 50+/- programs.
Cheaper in the we are not re-inventing the wheel at 50 +/- locations.
Transportation may be an issue.....but if you can travel all the way across TX or CA to get to an encampment.....going to the regional facility is not going to be a deal breaker.

Another great idea.  And as you know, we did try "National Encampments" for a couple of years.


But again, we cannot make the numbers work.  Travel for the students is the real killer here.  As a former CAWG DCP I know the sacrifice made by parents and members driving cadets 3-4 hours to encampment, then turning around and driving home.  And doing it again a week later.  Some of the most difficult conversations I had concerned why encampment and other activities were always conducted "so far away."  Reasonable minds can differ, but I have found that most parents don't want to drive over 8 hours in one day to drop their kid off at encampment.  Call it a 240 mile radius.

Take a moment and draw a 250 mile circle around the major population centers in the US and tell me what you see.  (Hint: there are over 30 cities in the US with a population of over 500,000.)

So, in almost any multi-state / region type encampment situation, many of the troops are going to have to fly in.  And that essentially doubles the price of encampment for cadets who aren't lucky enough to live within a reasonable drive of the encampment flag pole.

Now try to factor in military facilities with sufficient barracks / transient quarters that are near APOEs with decent airfares.  And that won't cancel us out due to higher priority troop billeting requirements that may come up.

Finally, don't forget about AK, HI, and PR/USVI.

We really, really have tried to think outside the box on this.  Maybe smarter people can figure out how to do it given the available resources.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Phil Hirons, Jr. on October 15, 2013, 12:30:19 PM
Quote
Also.....instead of wing level encampments......what about regional level encampments that run 4-5 sessions per summer?
Easier to control content of only 8+/- programs instead of 50+/- programs.
Cheaper in the we are not re-inventing the wheel at 50 +/- locations.
Transportation may be an issue.....but if you can travel all the way across TX or CA to get to an encampment.....going to the regional facility is not going to be a deal breaker.

Another great idea.  And as you know, we did try "National Encampments" for a couple of years.


But again, we cannot make the numbers work.  Travel for the students is the real killer here.  As a former CAWG DCP I know the sacrifice made by parents and members driving cadets 3-4 hours to encampment, then turning around and driving home.  And doing it again a week later.  Some of the most difficult conversations I had concerned why encampment and other activities were always conducted "so far away."  Reasonable minds can differ, but I have found that most parents don't want to drive over 8 hours in one day to drop their kid off at encampment.  Call it a 240 mile radius.

Take a moment and draw a 250 mile circle around the major population centers in the US and tell me what you see.  (Hint: there are over 30 cities in the US with a population of over 500,000.)

So, in almost any multi-state / region type encampment situation, many of the troops are going to have to fly in.  And that essentially doubles the price of encampment for cadets who aren't lucky enough to live within a reasonable drive of the encampment flag pole.

Now try to factor in military facilities with sufficient barracks / transient quarters that are near APOEs with decent airfares.  And that won't cancel us out due to higher priority troop billeting requirements that may come up.

Sadly this radius shrinks as the size of the states shrink. If RI and CT conducted a joint encampment it would be too far for some parents regardless of where in the 2 states we put it.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: NIN on October 15, 2013, 12:35:37 PM
Driving 4 hrs for encampment is "de rigeur" in MI Wing. And thats if you live in metro Detroit.

Don't be from Kalamazoo.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Walkman on October 15, 2013, 01:45:50 PM
Don't be from Kalamazoo.

That's my stompn' grounds!  ;D  Kalamazoo Composite Squadron!

Actually, I think the Benton Harbor Flight has it worse than us for encampment. They're an hour further west.

Encampment may be the only time those more remote units have an easier time getting to a wing activity than the rest of the state.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Eclipse on October 15, 2013, 02:22:26 PM
Ned -

we're a volunteer organization with motivated members who receive tax breaks for expenses, and...we have airplanes.

If we can't find a way within that paradigm to get better supervision at our encampments, we're simply not trying hard enough.

You have to admit, there's as much political inertia in this idea as there are logistical challenges.  I would present the
recent wailing when NHQ changed the policies regarding RCLS' as an example of the "this is how we've always done things" pressure in many wings and regions.

An "NHQ encampment team" doesn't have to mean "drag everyone to Maxwell", nor does it have to mean "everyone from Maxwell get on a commercial plane".  Solicit experienced former encampment commanders and staff, members with a track record of success, train them virtually, and have them work within their immediate area.

In most cases, just having a non-staff observer from another wing hanging around would bring a "knock it off" to a lot of nonsense.
And a follow-up AAR would potentially bring visibility to both "worst practices" >and< "best practices". 

When I was an encampment commander, I regularly received questions about "what and why', but since we didn't do anything
"under the table", etc., I had no issues answering them, and on the occasions where we missed something or got it wrong,
I welcomed the chance to make things better.

The problem right now is that in many wings, the DCP, who is supposed to be directly responsible for insuring that wing activities are
compliant and properly executed, is either inexperienced, disinterested ("don't want to rock the boat", or comes from the very
activities they are supposed to oversee.

Losing the SD's and RAPs in regards to encampment oversight and certification is not going to make this better.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Ned on October 15, 2013, 03:44:44 PM
Bob,
Don't get me wrong.  I really would love to have an Encampment Commanders / Project Officers Course.  And personally, I cannot imagine a better way to spend my summer than visiting a dozen or more encampments and sharing best practices.
And I'm sorry you don't think NHQ is trying hard enough. 
 
Ned -
we're a volunteer organization with motivated members who receive tax breaks for expenses, and...we have airplanes.

We've talked about this before, of course, but every time I actually run the numbers, it is almost never cheaper to use a corporate aircraft for move a volunteer hundreds of miles when compared to discount airfare on a commercial aircraft. 

Which is perhaps why commercial airlines exist.

But let's try an example.  Let's send an hypothetical NHQ staffer to take a look at the COWG encampment. 

As of today, SWA will sell me a ticket from Birmingham to Denver for $213, taxes included.  (And bags fly free!)

It looks like DEN is about 1,300 miles from BHM.  A trusty corporate 172 - at maximum economy cruise (55% power going about 100 kts / 115 mph) - uses about 6.5 gph, so it looks like it will take roughly 11 flight hours to get there, using about 73 gallons of aviation fuel.  Which I can probably get for about $6 a gallon on average.  So fuel alone costs about twice as much as flying in the back of a 737.

I'm not sure how "motivated volunteers" and tax breaks affect that, but maybe I'm missing your point.


Quote
If we can't find a way within that paradigm to get better supervision at our encampments, we're simply not trying hard enough.

We are indeed working very hard within our resource constraints.  That is exactly why we have or are fielding two new documents aimed squarely at this particular issue - the 52-23 and the new encampment guidance.

And we continue to welcome any additional suggestions on how to standardize and supervise our encampment program.

Quote
You have to admit, there's as much political inertia in this idea as there are logistical challenges. 

Strongest possible non-concur.  At least when it comes to the NHQ and the senior leadership.  Indeed, the whole point of the new encampment guidance.

Quote
An "NHQ encampment team" doesn't have to mean "drag everyone to Maxwell", nor does it have to mean "everyone from Maxwell get on a commercial plane". 

I can only agree that we can get together in places other than NHQ, but I thought Patrick's point was to send one or more reps from each wing that does an encampment.  If you do that, by definition you have to get together somewhere.  With all the costs that that entails.

Quote
Solicit experienced former encampment commanders and staff, members with a track record of success, train them virtually, and have them work within their immediate area.

It sounds like we agree that it can be cost-efficient to do remote training. 

Which, again, is why we have written and are in the process of fielding new guidance for encampments, including these "look and feel" issues.

Quote
In most cases, just having a non-staff observer from another wing hanging around would bring a "knock it off" to a lot of nonsense.

Agreed, but we probably need to have some sort of guidance that requires commanders to carefully consider the input from the observer and respond appropriately. 

When we do this informally, sometimes the "outsiders" are afraid to speak up, and sometimes their input is not taken as seriously as it should be.  Let me think about how to do this.


Quote
And a follow-up AAR would potentially bring visibility to both "worst practices" >and< "best practices".  When I was an encampment commander, I regularly received questions about "what and why', but since we didn't do anything "under the table", etc., I had no issues answering them, and on the occasions where we missed something or got it wrong, I welcomed the chance to make things better.
The problem right now is that in many wings, the DCP, who is supposed to be directly responsible for insuring that wing activities are compliant and properly executed, is either inexperienced, disinterested ("don't want to rock the boat", or comes from the very activities they are supposed to oversee.

Losing the SD's and RAPs in regards to encampment oversight and certification is not going to make this better.

I'm not sure what kind or level of AAR you are suggesting here.  I can't imagine that a wing would have an encampment -- often the largest single activity a wing does in terms of budget and volunteer resources -- without some sort of evaluation / AAR. 

Perhaps we could include some sort of "AAR Guide" in the new Encampment Guide, that includes some items that directly address intensity levels and "look and feel" items.


The SD's and RAPs historically have never been trained or particularly experienced in our encampment program.  While they by definition have substantial military experience, that is not always helpful when it comes to things like intensity levels.  In the 30 or so encampments I have attended, even before the cutbacks it was relatively rare to have an SD or RAP on the ground for the full week in any event.  When they were on site, they tended to be "8-5" folks who made sure our vans were inspected and the obstacle course saftey-checked.  If we were lucky, they spent time with the training officer going over the curricula to ensure it met published standards.

But not much more than that.  In this area, we need to police ourselves and hold ourselves to our regulatory standards.

Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Eclipse on October 15, 2013, 05:43:31 PM
My point is, we don't go from AL to CO.  You have folks in those wings and Regions trained properly and they can drive there - review the curriculum, observe operations, report back to whatever echelon cares.  Honestly, it really seems like the assumption  at NHQ is that if it's a national initiative, NHQ people have to physically be there.

As to AARs, I seriously doubt the majority of wings are doing anything formal beyond the bare minimum requirements.  Certainly NHQ never asked for anything of me, and we're in essentially the first year in which the SD (now LRADO) is not certifying the activity.  In fact,
despite the rhetoric in the new draft, there's no specific requirement CAP-USAF or the USAF be involved at >all<.   

Self-audit has never been a strong-suit of CAP.

The inertia I speak of is decidedly local, but requires considerable intestinal fortitude to impact change, and that assumes the
Wing CC and / or staff
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Elioron on October 15, 2013, 06:07:56 PM
...there's no specific requirement CAP-USAF or the USAF be involved at >all<.

Unless we got the directive from CAP-USAF we can't require their involvement in anything specific.  That's not to say we shouldn't try, but not require.

As far as inspections, what if there was a system in place similar to SAREVAL for ES?  Every couple of years, a few CP folks from other wings observe an encampment within their Region.  Inspectors would be trained by NHQ via a distance learning system and through National/Regional conferences.  Having a team rather than an individual would help to give balance to the feedback and their findings could be shared with NHQ and other Region/Wing CP personnel.  Again, it would probably be great for CAP-USAF to get involved as well, but that's more up to them.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Eclipse on October 15, 2013, 06:28:55 PM
...there's no specific requirement CAP-USAF or the USAF be involved at >all<.

Unless we got the directive from CAP-USAF we can't require their involvement in anything specific.  That's not to say we shouldn't try, but not require.

Agreed - but when we removed the SD (LRADO) from ultimately certifying the activity, we also removed the last incentive for them to be directly involved.
Some were directly and intimately involved in vetting curriculum before signing an encampment was compliant, some took the encampment commanders word, but ultimately CAP-USAF was a safety valve.

I fully understand that manpower limitations basically preclude that level of involvement now, but as I said before, CAP is not good at self-audit.

As far as inspections, what if there was a system in place similar to SAREVAL for ES?  Every couple of years, a few CP folks from other wings observe an encampment within their Region.  Inspectors would be trained by NHQ via a distance learning system and through National/Regional conferences.  Having a team rather than an individual would help to give balance to the feedback and their findings could be shared with NHQ and other Region/Wing CP personnel.  Again, it would probably be great for CAP-USAF to get involved as well, but that's more up to them.

Sounds like the start of an idea to me.  The key being KNOWLEDGEABLE and DIRECTLY EXPERIENCED, something many of our esteemed inspectors.  If we set up a bunch of people who are clueless not experienced, that will make it worse.
today are not.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Ned on October 15, 2013, 06:30:25 PM
My point is, we don't go from AL to CO. 

Odd.  I thought your point was:

Quote
we're a volunteer organization with motivated members who receive tax breaks for expenses, and...we have airplanes.

I thought since you underlined the airplane part that had something to do with your point.  If you don't want to talk about logistics, that's fine with me.


Quote
You have folks in those wings and Regions trained properly and they can drive there - review the curriculum, observe operations, report back to whatever echelon cares.

Undoubtedly true.  Why do you think that is not happening now?

Quote
Honestly, it really seems like the assumption  at NHQ is that if it's a national initiative, NHQ people have to physically be there.

That's rather unfair, don't you think?  Encampment has been a "national initiative" (or at least a national requirement) for over half a century.  There has never been a requirment or even an expectation that NHQ personnel would be present at a wing encampment.

To the contrary, the "assumption at NHQ" is that dedicated volunteer CP officers will continue to implement a successful cadet program at the local, wing, and region level.


Quote
As to AARs, I seriously doubt the majority of wings are doing anything formal beyond the bare minimum requirements.  Certainly NHQ never asked for anything of me, and we're in essentially the first year in which the SD (now LRADO) is not certifying the activity.

Wait, are you saying you never did an AAR for the large encampments you commanded?  Really?

Quote
In fact, despite the rhetoric in the new draft, there's no specific requirement CAP-USAF or the USAF be involved at >all<. 

True enough, for the very practical reason that there is essentially no capability for CAP-USAF or the AF to be involved at the wing level.  (They do have significant input on the curriculum and doctrine for encampment at the NHQ level.)

Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Eclipse on October 15, 2013, 07:48:28 PM
Wait, are you saying you never did an AAR for the large encampments you commanded?  Really?

Yes, really.  That's exactly what I am saying - no one asked.

The reporting I always provided far exceeded the expectations, and we spent an excruciating amount of time making sure that we were fully
compliant, exceeded expectations, and had a good event. 

If you would be so kind as to point me to the national or even regional databases of best practice and summary reports from encampments, and/or the reporting requirements beyond the CAPF20, I'll get our stuff added in.

Encampments are >not< a national initiative or even on NHQ's radar - some wings don't even have them.  I'd say in abot 1/2 the years we
couldn't even get the dates posted on the NHQ encampment web site, let alone anything beyond that.

Is our cadet program successful?  On the mean, yes, however it is very inconsistently managed and executed. and there are more then a few places
that need adjustment.  Here again, when you consider commanders are selected as much because of proximity as to ability, that's to be expected.

I am happy to help fix that.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: ol'fido on October 15, 2013, 09:53:29 PM
I spent a few hours this weekend visiting the online presence of several wing encampments. I pretty much covered everything in PCR, SWR, and RMR. My idea was to glean ideas, best practices, and get training materials for our encampment next year. I hope to get to the rest of the wings in the near future. In some wings I found a lot of information on their program, chain of command, training materials, etc. In others, I found a date and and address to send your app to and not much else. I think we have an excellent program here in IL for our summer encampment, but there is always room for improvement.

Our program is a continuation and evolution of a process we started in 2003 to change the culture of our encampment from the "in your face" type to one that was a little more forward thinking. In years past, our SD has gotten a large packet of materials from us at the end of each encampment. This included our Master Incident Action Plan plus our daily IAPs and any info we could put together that showed what we were doing. I would not hesitate to have anyone come in and observe us at any time. I would also not hesitate to share our program with anyone who asks.



Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 16, 2013, 12:42:59 AM
US Marine Corps Drill Instructor vs US Army Drill Sergeant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlNSPbfr5_g#)
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: C/Maj Collins on October 16, 2013, 01:48:46 PM
I think that for the basic schools the intensity needs to be scaled back, but only slightly. At my squadron you are warned repeatedly that it is going to be difficult, but if you continue on then it is on you. It teaches you how to toughen up, and get through it. That said I don't think new twelve year olds should be able to go. Maybe set the bar at 14. At leadership schools however the intensity is definitely needed. People that go to leadership schools have been in CAP for a few years and they are probably planning on joining the military. Also if it is the leadership school students that will be leading and teaching next years class, you want the most professional and knowledgeable staff possible. That being said being the first there is always the worst because you are usually singled out. When I went to LDC, a friend and I rode in the truck that carried the luggage and we were definitely singled out because of how we arrived. The staff does need to scale back the singling out people, especially when people are about to break. At In processing we had a cadet try to leave but the staff let me talk him into staying. So the effect of the yelling is to build teamwork and it still works.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 16, 2013, 02:26:39 PM
So the effect of the yelling is to build teamwork and it still works.

Thanks for making the point of why untrained people should simply not be allowed to use it.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: ol'fido on October 16, 2013, 06:57:33 PM
So the effect of the yelling is to build teamwork and it still works.

Thanks for making the point of why untrained people should simply not be allowed to use it.
Yelling in and of itself is not abusive. As we have stated in other posts, there are times when it is needed. These include trying to be heard above the din, stopping someone from doing something that is dangerous to themselves or others, or yelling encouragement to comrades during competitions, races, and other activities. Learning when it is appropriate is a process not an event.

The PROBLEM is that it takes training, experience, and good judgement to know when it is appropriate and when it is not. Military trainers(DS, DI, MTI, etc.) receive 8-12 weeks of full time training AFTER they have served several years on FULL TIME ACTIVE DUTY, been through one or more NCO training courses, and have years of experience as NCOs to know when it might be appropriate and MORE IMPORTANTLY when it is not. No matter how dedicated, talented, and confident of their own judgement they are, the overwhelming majority of our cadets have not reached that level of ability. This does not even account for the differences in maturity between the "yellers" and the "yellees" in these very different situations. You have 25-35(ballpark) year old highly trained professional soldiers dealing with 17-21 year old(usually) recruits versus 17-21 year old cadets dealing with 12-15 year old cadets.

After 36 years, 21 encampments, and service as both a c/LtCol and a SM LtCol, I have seen few if any situations where yelling made a real lasting positive change in behavior. In most cases, IT WAS NOT A POSITIVE OR NEEDED RESPONSE. Most often what it results in is the individual doing just enough to NOT get yelled at and the group mentality of "unity of hate"(see the first installment of Band of Brothers to see an example) against the yeller. That is the only "teamwork" that yelling builds.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 16, 2013, 07:24:37 PM
Which was my point. To say yelling is a teambuilding tool is so off the mark, that it alone is an argument to simply forbid those with that mindset from even doing it.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Ned on October 16, 2013, 07:35:45 PM
Which was my point. To say yelling is a teambuilding tool is so off the mark, that it alone is an argument to simply forbid those with that mindset from even doing it.

I hesitate to confuse the issue even more,  but I have strong memory of a high school coach or two addressing my team with a raised voice.  Many times.  Particularly if we were not doing well as a team.

Undeniably at least one effect of that was teambuilding.  Which I suspect was also one of their intentions at the time.

To take a position that raising your voice is never an effective teambuilding tool is just as an extreme position as saying that always raising your voice is an effective teambuilding tool.

As so frequently happens in these types of discussions, the truth is probably somewhere in between the two extremes.

Ned Lee
Former High School Athlete

Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: ol'fido on October 16, 2013, 07:37:22 PM
My comments were directed more at the C/CMsgt than you I hope you understand.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: ol'fido on October 16, 2013, 07:39:12 PM
Which was my point. To say yelling is a teambuilding tool is so off the mark, that it alone is an argument to simply forbid those with that mindset from even doing it.

I hesitate to confuse the issue even more,  but I have strong memory of a high school coach or two addressing my team with a raised voice.  Many times.  Particularly if we were not doing well as a team.

Undeniably at least one effect of that was teambuilding.  Which I suspect was also one of their intentions at the time.

To take a position that raising your voice is never an effective teambuilding tool is just as an extreme position as saying that always raising your voice is an effective teambuilding tool.

As so frequently happens in these types of discussions, the truth is probably somewhere in between the two extremes.

Ned Lee
Former High School Athlete
Like I said Ned, your coach had a lot of experience and training before he did that, didn't he?
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Elioron on October 16, 2013, 07:44:55 PM
Like I said Ned, your coach had a lot of experience and training before he did that, didn't he?

My coach didn't.  He had just played football for years and agreed to coach the High School (did a really good job, too).
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Eclipse on October 16, 2013, 08:49:05 PM
I think that for the basic schools the intensity needs to be scaled back, but only slightly

Basic schools?  What are those?
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Eclipse on October 16, 2013, 08:51:47 PM
Thanks for making the point of why untrained people should simply not be allowed to use it.
Yelling in and of itself is not abusive. As we have stated in other posts, there are times when it is needed. These include trying to be heard above the din, stopping someone from doing something that is dangerous to themselves or others, or yelling encouragement to comrades during competitions, races, and other activities. Learning when it is appropriate is a process not an event.

The PROBLEM is that it takes training, experience, and good judgement to know when it is appropriate and when it is not. Military trainers(DS, DI, MTI, etc.) receive 8-12 weeks of full time training AFTER they have served several years on FULL TIME ACTIVE DUTY, been through one or more NCO training courses, and have years of experience as NCOs to know when it might be appropriate and MORE IMPORTANTLY when it is not. No matter how dedicated, talented, and confident of their own judgement they are, the overwhelming majority of our cadets have not reached that level of ability. This does not even account for the differences in maturity between the "yellers" and the "yellees" in these very different situations. You have 25-35(ballpark) year old highly trained professional soldiers dealing with 17-21 year old(usually) recruits versus 17-21 year old cadets dealing with 12-15 year old cadets.

After 36 years, 21 encampments, and service as both a c/LtCol and a SM LtCol, I have seen few if any situations where yelling made a real lasting positive change in behavior. In most cases, IT WAS NOT A POSITIVE OR NEEDED RESPONSE. Most often what it results in is the individual doing just enough to NOT get yelled at and the group mentality of "unity of hate"(see the first installment of Band of Brothers to see an example) against the yeller. That is the only "teamwork" that yelling builds.
[/quote]

Again, this ^.

We don't have the contact time during an encampment to be playing "break them down / build them up games".  Also, a CAP encampment, is not, "basic cadet training".
That's not ints intention, it isn't scaled for that, and it's certainly not remotely that in practice.  Not when you have 16 year old Chiefs in the ranks.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: lordmonar on October 16, 2013, 09:40:09 PM
Now don't get me wrong......I got no problem with a "Get your butts off my bus" a round of pick em up/put em down...and then a very intense game of spread your crap out for shake down!   That serves the function of getting the basics into the "encampment mind set" and establish who is in charge.

But then that's it.  No more.  By Dinner time it should be turned off and the only yelling should of the "it's noisy in hear" "get off my lawn" sort of yelling.

But from the encampment video.....the "stay off my grass, salute all officer....etc" and the first thing I see is three officers lined up along the side walk just to prove a point.   I'm calling BS.   Cadets running out of the van, carrying all their junk, looking for their bunks....and having some random officer just lazing around to collect salutes.   Not helpful.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Eclipse on October 16, 2013, 09:55:52 PM
Now don't get me wrong......I got no problem with a "Get your butts off my bus" a round of pick em up/put em down...and then a very intense game of spread your crap out for shake down!   That serves the function of getting the basics into the "encampment mind set" and establish who is in charge.

Just as long as you give them your 100% "divided" attention...
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: lordmonar on October 17, 2013, 02:07:35 AM
Now don't get me wrong......I got no problem with a "Get your butts off my bus" a round of pick em up/put em down...and then a very intense game of spread your crap out for shake down!   That serves the function of getting the basics into the "encampment mind set" and establish who is in charge.

Just as long as you give them your 100% "divided" attention...
Yeah....I saw that too.
I also saw the Guide on Ceremony.....interesting waste of contact hours.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: NIN on October 17, 2013, 06:22:28 AM
I never yell.

I merely speak in a tone which ensures I will not be misunderstood, misheard or ignored.

:)
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: lordmonar on October 17, 2013, 02:13:20 PM
I never yell.

I merely speak in a tone which ensures I will not be misunderstood, misheard or ignored.

:)
:)  Ah....you have mastered the ability to "yell" while whispering.  :)
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: SarDragon on October 17, 2013, 06:52:40 PM
I never yell. I just transition to theater or instructor mode. Everyone hears, and it doesn't hurt my throat a bit.  8)
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: PHall on October 17, 2013, 08:51:12 PM
I never yell. I just transition to theater or instructor mode. Everyone hears, and it doesn't hurt my throat a bit.  8)

I can do that too. It's called "Mr Bullhorn!" >:D
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: C/Maj Collins on October 18, 2013, 09:44:13 AM
Thanks for making the point of why untrained people should simply not be allowed to use it.
Yelling in and of itself is not abusive. As we have stated in other posts, there are times when it is needed. These include trying to be heard above the din, stopping someone from doing something that is dangerous to themselves or others, or yelling encouragement to comrades during competitions, races, and other activities. Learning when it is appropriate is a process not an event.

The PROBLEM is that it takes training, experience, and good judgement to know when it is appropriate and when it is not. Military trainers(DS, DI, MTI, etc.) receive 8-12 weeks of full time training AFTER they have served several years on FULL TIME ACTIVE DUTY, been through one or more NCO training courses, and have years of experience as NCOs to know when it might be appropriate and MORE IMPORTANTLY when it is not. No matter how dedicated, talented, and confident of their own judgement they are, the overwhelming majority of our cadets have not reached that level of ability. This does not even account for the differences in maturity between the "yellers" and the "yellees" in these very different situations. You have 25-35(ballpark) year old highly trained professional soldiers dealing with 17-21 year old(usually) recruits versus 17-21 year old cadets dealing with 12-15 year old cadets.

After 36 years, 21 encampments, and service as both a c/LtCol and a SM LtCol, I have seen few if any situations where yelling made a real lasting positive change in behavior. In most cases, IT WAS NOT A POSITIVE OR NEEDED RESPONSE. Most often what it results in is the individual doing just enough to NOT get yelled at and the group mentality of "unity of hate"(see the first installment of Band of Brothers to see an example) against the yeller. That is the only "teamwork" that yelling builds.

Again, this ^.

We don't have the contact time during an encampment to be playing "break them down / build them up games".  Also, a CAP encampment, is not, "basic cadet training".
That's not ints intention, it isn't scaled for that, and it's certainly not remotely that in practice.  Not when you have 16 year old Chiefs in the ranks.
[/quote]
There is time for a break down and build up, to a certain degree. And in my opinion the frontline supervisor should do whatever he/she thinks is necessary for the fight to come together as a team, within reason. And Eclipse thank you for reminding me, I need to change my name on here.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: arajca on October 18, 2013, 09:58:20 AM
There is time for a break down and build up, to a certain degree. And in my opinion the frontline supervisor should do whatever he/she thinks is necessary for the fight to come together as a team, within reason. And Eclipse thank you for reminding me, I need to change my name on here.
It takes a few weeks for trained professionals to break down trainees in boot camp and the rest of the time to rebuild them. Why do you feel untrained juveniles can do it in less than a week?

There is a significant difference between "break them down" and "crush their souls". The former is the goal in basic military training (for any service), while the later is the result of untrained folks attempting to do the same.

Drill Sergeants/Instructors/etc also do not play good cop/bad cop in the same person at the same time as has been stated here (and in other discussions).
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Pulsar on October 18, 2013, 12:49:32 PM
There is time for a break down and build up, to a certain degree. And in my opinion the frontline supervisor should do whatever he/she thinks is necessary for the fight to come together as a team, within reason. And Eclipse thank you for reminding me, I need to change my name on here.
It takes a few weeks for trained professionals to break down trainees in boot camp and the rest of the time to rebuild them. Why do you feel untrained juveniles can do it in less than a week?

There is a significant difference between "break them down" and "crush their souls". The former is the goal in basic military training (for any service), while the later is the result of untrained folks attempting to do the same.

Drill Sergeants/Instructors/etc also do not play good cop/bad cop in the same person at the same time as has been stated here (and in other discussions).

it was done; -even if it wasn't as low as possible or as high as possible. You want to see teams?...Go watch the graduate squadrons from the cadet training schools. There are no cliques. By the "break down", we really came together as a squadron (or flight). We became motivated as a team. It was no longer me, it was us - it was squadron -0!!
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: C/Maj Collins on October 18, 2013, 01:44:06 PM
There is time for a break down and build up, to a certain degree. And in my opinion the frontline supervisor should do whatever he/she thinks is necessary for the fight to come together as a team, within reason. And Eclipse thank you for reminding me, I need to change my name on here.
It takes a few weeks for trained professionals to break down trainees in boot camp and the rest of the time to rebuild them. Why do you feel untrained juveniles can do it in less than a week?

There is a significant difference between "break them down" and "crush their souls". The former is the goal in basic military training (for any service), while the later is the result of untrained folks attempting to do the same.

Drill Sergeants/Instructors/etc also do not play good cop/bad cop in the same person at the same time as has been stated here (and in other discussions).

it was done; -even if it wasn't as low as possible or as high as possible. You want to see teams?...Go watch the graduate squadrons from the cadet training schools. There are no cliques. By the "break down", we really came together as a squadron (or flight). We became motivated as a team. It was no longer me, it was us - it was squadron -0!!

Thank you Pulsar. My point that the groups and social structure that exists in just about any group of adolescents is nonexistent in a graduating squadron. What happened at my squadron is that the staff started the breakdown of the flight as a whole, and then the students built each other up. I am not familiar enough with the theory behind it to explain exactly why this worked, all I know is that my squadrons at encampment  and LDC were teams, through and through. Each graduate was a superb cadet when we graduated we were all ready to return to our squadrons and improve them with the experience we had.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Eclipse on October 18, 2013, 02:02:22 PM
I am not familiar enough with the theory behind it to explain exactly why this worked,

Then you shouldn't be doing or advocating it.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Pulsar on October 18, 2013, 02:17:59 PM
I am not familiar enough with the theory behind it to explain exactly why this worked,

Then you shouldn't be doing or advocating it.

 I think C/2d Lt Collins knows why it works better than he imagines.  Being in that atmosphere, forces cadets to want to please and succeed. They have to bond together quickly and have to look to each other for help. In order to get through the first couple days, cadets are forced mentally to be and become friends. They are all brought down to the same level and then come up as a team and squadron. In my squadron, there were no two people that were 'best friends'. Every bodies' best friend was everyone
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: SamFranklin on October 18, 2013, 03:18:39 PM
Interesting discussion. If this is too far off topic, I apologize, but when people talk about encampment not being "hard" enough, not enough like "Full Metal Jacket," I thought I'd contribute a historical perspective. Also I have the flu and so have time on my hands.


Some ruminations about the Full Metal Jacket mindset, based on a historical perspective of the military's gradual professionalization: 

The word "cadet" comes from the French, "capdet," which points back further still to Latin's diminutive for head (caput). "Cadet" meant a "little head," which was figurative for "little brother."  Why does a military term have such a history? In pre-modern times, the second-born sons of the aristocracy would serve as military officers (or clergy), having no right to the family's wealth, due to primogeniture. Military service was a dumping ground for little brothers. If you saw a bunch of young officers, you were seeing a bunch of little brothers, hence "cadets."

Come forward to our own national history. Before WWII, the armed forces were very small, poorly funded, poorly trained, poorly paid, and generally not the professional warrior class they are today. Very few people enlisted in the armed forces out of patriotism. None enlisted for the GI BIll -- it did not exist. More often, you went into the service because you had no better options. The enlisted force represented the bottom tenth of the social class. Today, a criminal record and lack of basic education disqualifies you from service, but in the pre-WWII era, military service was one of the few employment opportunities available to society's undesirables. Every green lieutenant outranks every salty NCO because the lieutenant is of fine breeding while the enlisted are the great unwashed. Ultra-strict discipline was necessary, especially after WWI, to condition enlisted men to comply with orders leading them into mechanized death above the trenches. (Ask an Aussie or Kiwi about Gallipoli.)

What's that got to do with this thread?

I wonder if the "Full Metal Jacket" version of basic military leadership originates in the pre-WWII and old classist European cultures.

FMJ is marked by a demeaning tone ("maggots"), a prison-like and dehumanized experience for trainees who were afforded zero freedom during training ("you're not even human F beings"), and instructional techniques that presumed trainees were uneducated dolts. ("You will learn by the numbers!")

Imagine you're a poorly educated, poorly paid NCO working in the shadow of West Point grads (especially at a time when very few citizens were college grads). NCO life in the 30s and 40s must've been marked by pain, resentment, non-supportive leaders.... a living hell of unnecessary stress. How would you conduct yourself as a role model and instructor? Makes sense to me that you'd lash out at your maggots. Swear at them. Hit them. ("Left side, sir".... "Now choke yourself!")  Talk down to them instead of teaching them. ("That is not your daddy's shotgun!")

If this genealogy of the FMJ mindset is correct, then the misguided FMJ fantasies of people who don't have experience with modern military training methods are revealed to be 75 years out of date. The FMJ mindset held on during WWII out of existential urgency, persisted throughout Korea and Vietnam because of organizational inertia and the huge mass of men with WWII-era experience, and only with the advent of the post Vietnam all-volunteer force was the military forced to turn to the fundamentals of modern psychology, pedagogy, etc., for its training techniques. I don't know of any notable military training leader who wants to turn back the clock to 1927.

The FMJ mindset's decline is seen as a great weakening of the military ethos, in some peoples' eyes. ("WIWAC encampment was tougher!" Western civilization is crumbling because we're coddling cadets!") But with an historical understanding it looks more like FMJ was never a deliberate, purposeful regimen but an embarrassing, non-designed legacy from the pre-professional military.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: C/Maj Collins on October 18, 2013, 03:22:34 PM
I am not familiar enough with the theory behind it to explain exactly why this worked,

Then you shouldn't be doing or advocating it.

I am in a better position to advocate it than many, with all due respect. I have experienced it the last two summers, first hand. People that broke down on the first day, became stronger, one cadet in particular made a point of thanking several of us, because we helped him through it and he contacted me recently saying that LDC was one of the best decisions he ever made.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Garibaldi on October 18, 2013, 03:35:44 PM
Interesting...I think the mindset depicted in "The Lords of Discipline" illustrates exactly what we should NOT aspire to. In a few words, the protagonist says The Institute spends the first year breaking you down, then the next three building you into an Institute man, someone who is wholeheartedly a captive of the system. Plebe year, during the time period of 1964, when Viet Nam was just getting up a good head of steam, was a brutal process in the book. Plebes were slapped, beaten, verbally assaulted, and, if they survived all that and were still deemed unfit to wear The Ring, were subject to far worse treatment under The Taming, when the entire upper class would come at you with the sole intention of running you out. If, somehow, you survived THAT, you were taken off campus to a house and subjected to torture, a place where the rules did not apply nor exist.

Flash forward a few years. Now, if an upperclassman looks at you wrong, he can get sued. Sure, there are still cases where people, officers as well as senior NCOs, are accused of assault or abusing their positions, and they get crucified by the media.

What does this have to do with CAP Encampment, you ask? Simple. By reading too much into what you THINK encampment is or should be and not what it REALLY is, you have effectively undermined the entire process. Extreme military discipline, to include yelling and getting in cadets' faces, has no place here and now. Maybe, MAYBE it did 40 or 50 years ago, but I doubt it. We don't aspire to create cadets who blindly follow orders, or send kids home at the end of the week with the mindset of "I'm going to pay this forward next year." It's a learning environment, no more, no less. Just because we wear uniforms with grade insignia doesn't give anyone, cadet or senior, the right to try to enforce a particular mindset onto another. The cadet program rarely depends on that degree of military discipline.

People, including me, have watched movies and read books about Basic or plebe year and have said to themselves, "gee, wouldn't it be great if..." Granted, I think the wussification of America has bled into the military, but that's neither here nor there, and I seriously have my doubts about the leadership ability of a 15 year old cadet who struts around trying to assert his "authority" at his home unit because he's watched FMJ or Stripes too many times.

And now, to get this discussion back on topic, my dad liked to relate a story about his first encampment, back in the 1950s. Apparently, three cadets thought it would be fun to sign in as Disney characters. It wasn't real hard to figure out who they were once the paper settled, and the three spent the entire week cleaning latrines and doing KP during their free time. While wearing Mickey Mouse ears.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: UH60guy on October 18, 2013, 03:39:50 PM
I am not familiar enough with the theory behind it to explain exactly why this worked,

Then you shouldn't be doing or advocating it.

I am in a better position to advocate it than many, with all due respect. I have experienced it the last two summers, first hand. People that broke down on the first day, became stronger, one cadet in particular made a point of thanking several of us, because we helped him through it and he contacted me recently saying that LDC was one of the best decisions he ever made.

Not saying this is necessarily the case, but take a look at these:
From theCAP Unit Commander's course instructor guide:
"Hazing, sometimes thought of as harmless team-building, is actually very harmful both to the cadets involved and to the overall cohesion of the unit."

And from CAPR 52-10
"Hazing is defined as any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning or harmful. Actual or implied consent to acts of hazing does not eliminate the culpability of the perpetrator."

You're walking a fine line here, and jut remember that "because it works" or "the cadets enjoyed the effects" aren't valid defenses to something that could be determined to be hazing.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Eclipse on October 18, 2013, 03:44:07 PM
You're walking a fine line here, and jut remember that "because it works" or "the cadets enjoyed the effects" aren't valid defenses to something that could be determined to be hazing.

+1 - CAP does not train anyone in the techniques of "breaking down and building up", especially cadets.

Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Elioron on October 18, 2013, 03:47:57 PM
I am not familiar enough with the theory behind it to explain exactly why this worked,

Then you shouldn't be doing or advocating it.

That's like saying that nobody should drive unless they explain the engineering involved.  It is quite possible to observe that something works without understanding why.

You're walking a fine line here...

That's why oversight is important.  Intensity is not abuse or hazing.  If we get to the point that we are no longer willing to challenge cadets out of fear of hazing accusations we lose a cornerstone of youth development.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Pulsar on October 18, 2013, 03:52:38 PM
I am not familiar enough with the theory behind it to explain exactly why this worked,

Then you shouldn't be doing or advocating it.

That's like saying that nobody should drive unless they explain the engineering involved.  It is quite possible to observe that something works without understanding why.

You're walking a fine line here...

That's why oversight is important.  Intensity is not abuse or hazing.  If we get to the point that we are no longer willing to challenge cadets out of fear of hazing accusations we lose a cornerstone of youth development.

hmmm, well said.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: UH60guy on October 18, 2013, 04:05:28 PM
I am not familiar enough with the theory behind it to explain exactly why this worked,

Then you shouldn't be doing or advocating it.

That's like saying that nobody should drive unless they explain the engineering involved.  It is quite possible to observe that something works without understanding why.

You're walking a fine line here...

That's why oversight is important.  Intensity is not abuse or hazing.  If we get to the point that we are no longer willing to challenge cadets out of fear of hazing accusations we lose a cornerstone of youth development.

I agree- that oversight needs to make sure any "intensity" doesn't cross into "cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning or harmful." That's why it's a fine line and sometimes tough to define. However, out of pure CYA, I tend to default to "if the question is asked, it's probably not a good idea." It all depends on the situation.

The question I posit is this: can a cadet, likely around 16 years old in an encampment flight leadership position, navigate that fine line successfully? What training do they have in how to manage the "intensity" so they don't go over the edge? What do we do as senior members to properly prepare cadets to manage such an event? If the training isn't part of it, where are they drawing their experience from, other than "my flight sergeant yelled at me when I was a basic?" I mean, none of the leadership books I've seen reference yelling and intensity as a leadership method.

Forgive me if the internet can't convey my intent in the questions- I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm genuinely intrigued by the discussion.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Eclipse on October 18, 2013, 04:14:35 PM
I am not familiar enough with the theory behind it to explain exactly why this worked,

Then you shouldn't be doing or advocating it.

That's like saying that nobody should drive unless they explain the engineering involved.  It is quite possible to observe that something works without understanding why.

You're not allowed to drive until you have been properly trained, have time behind the wheel, and then demonstrated your ability in this regard.


You're walking a fine line here...

That's why oversight is important.  Intensity is not abuse or hazing.  If we get to the point that we are no longer willing to challenge cadets out of fear of hazing accusations we lose a cornerstone of youth development.

In most cases, the oversight is provided by other cadets and/or adults who have no more experience or proven ability then the cadets they are overseeing, certainly
no one in a CAP context has been trained on how to "break down and build up" other members.

This is not about "intensity".
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Elioron on October 18, 2013, 04:32:46 PM
The question I posit is this: can a cadet, likely around 16 years old in an encampment flight leadership position, navigate that fine line successfully? What training do they have in how to manage the "intensity" so they don't go over the edge? What do we do as senior members to properly prepare cadets to manage such an event? If the training isn't part of it, where are they drawing their experience from, other than "my flight sergeant yelled at me when I was a basic?" I mean, none of the leadership books I've seen reference yelling and intensity as a leadership method.

I know at our encampment, staff shows up four days before for training.  A lot of it deals specifically with intensity - how to instill it, how to keep from going over the line, how to regulate it according to the syllabus.  Even so, we don't leave it entirely up to the cadet staff.  There is a Senior Member with each flight 24/7.  The primary purpose of the TAC Officer is to monitor the cadets and the staff to make sure things are on track and to help those cadets who have issues.  This is important because, just as with everything else we do, cadets will be at a wide range of maturity and experience.  As has been mentioned before, some can't even handle being away from home, much less being held to a schedule.  One almost went home because they couldn't handle communal showers, others are fine with it.  There are a lot of Senior Staff to help out, and pretty much every flight has some sort of breakdown every night.

Is it easy?  No.  It requires vigilance on the part of the senior Cadet Staff and the Senior Staff, but that is the least we can do to help all of the participants to grow.  If it was easy, nobody would come away with anything useful.  I think we owe to them and our organization to build the best people we can.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: C/Maj Collins on October 18, 2013, 04:51:04 PM
Let me point out that I do not think yelling should be exercised freely, if it is then it loses its effect. It must be only used when something of significance needs to be stated. And I do have a fairly good idea of why it works, I ask again though, why is it that a recent student of the encampment that is under fire, his/her opinion is given a backseat to the discussion, despite the recent and first hand knowledge that cadet has?
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 18, 2013, 05:04:02 PM
I am not familiar enough with the theory behind it to explain exactly why this worked...
And I do have a fairly good idea of why it works
So...which is it?

Let me point out that I do not think yelling should be exercised freely, if it is then it loses its effect. It must be only used when something of significance needs to be stated.

Like yelling at cadets to get off the bus and salute all officers, conveniently placed around the path, and to stay of the grass? Or, question them, upon arrival on subjects they may or may not know, and yell at them for being wrong?

I ask again though, why is it that a recent student of the encampment that is under fire, his/her opinion is given a backseat to the discussion, despite the recent and first hand knowledge that cadet has?

Because of institutional knowledge of the detriments? Because for every cadet who gets a little Stockholmy about it, another two will NOT be renewing their membership? You tell me. Why do we have such high attrition rates?

"[BANG!!--BANG-BANG!!!] -the van door is torn open.- a female officer stands yelling: "WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!!-SITTING WASTING TIME?!!-OUT!!OUT!! GET OUT OF THIS VAN!!!!...ARE YOU GONNA THANK THE DRIVER!?!-HUGH-HUGH?!! ARE YOU THAT DISRESCECTFUL?!!!"  Everything happened so fast; this and that- on and on- everything was chaos for us cadets.  A few seconds later, I found myself standing near a wall at attention. All one could hear was staff yelling and screaming at cadets. I was alone...utterly ALONE ( I was the first female cadet there; I was in Sqd. 30 which is an all- female sqd.)
For what seemed like hours I was tested on the cadet oath, honor code, core values, and countless other things. Every little mistake I made was yelled in my face.
We are told to report to the officer upstairs. The first cadet tries. She is screamed at for not greeting nearby officers hiding behind the door.
On and on- every cadet failed at something. Finally it gets to me; I greet correctly, do everything satisfactory, go upstairs, and report correctly. -I even write my information. But I hear: "IS THIS WHERE I PUT MY PEN?!!!" I try to answer but instead he says: "WRONG!!! END OF THE LINE!" So much for signing in.
As I walk by, other shaky and nervous cadets greet me (thinking me a staff member). I say, "Hey guys, chill out. I'm a student here too. Be careful who you greet! You will get in trouble." (I was a C/SMSgt)  I continue to my rack. The longest day of my life continues......
Ok, that was my experience. Many girls and... boys cried that first day.

THESE were the worst bits of the OP. THESE are why so many SMs, especially those with DECADES of Encampment experience are cringing. Absolutely NONE of that is necessary, and MOST of it is in the current RST materials to be AVOIDED.

But do go on telling us how you succeed in breaking down AND rebuilding these cadets in a week, and it's all for the better.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Elioron on October 18, 2013, 05:39:30 PM
Because for every cadet who gets a little Stockholmy about it, another two will NOT be renewing their membership? You tell me. Why do we have such high attrition rates?

I have never known a cadet to have quit because of how they were treated at encampment.  In fact they are always more motivated and more cheerful.  Those from our squadron that graduated are either still with us, moved away to college, or got too busy with school.

But do go on telling us how you succeed in breaking down AND rebuilding these cadets in a week, and it's all for the better.

She did.  She didn't go into a daily schedule of the rest of her encampment but she described it.  Yes, she also described bad behavior, but to throw the baby out with the bathwater is not constructive.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 18, 2013, 05:41:13 PM
She did.  She didn't go into a daily schedule of the rest of her encampment but she described it.  Yes, she also described bad behavior, but to throw the baby out with the bathwater is not constructive.

Aimed more at Collins than OP. As for baby and bathwater...sometimes you just need a blank slate. It's that or a decade of cultural change, and I doubt NHQ will give them that with the new curriculum.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: SarDragon on October 18, 2013, 05:44:39 PM
I am not familiar enough with the theory behind it to explain exactly why this worked,

Then you shouldn't be doing or advocating it.

I am in a better position to advocate it than many, with all due respect. I have experienced it the last two summers, first hand. People that broke down on the first day, became stronger, one cadet in particular made a point of thanking several of us, because we helped him through it and he contacted me recently saying that LDC was one of the best decisions he ever made.

Strong words there.

"... with all due respect" usually denotes a lack thereof, and come across as , "screw you buddy, I ain't listening."

As for your position, is it really better? You've got a couple of disconnected weeks, immersed in the activity, learning while you are doing. Recruit training leaders spend a couple of months in school, and another period of time in an assistant role, before being turned loose with their own recruit company. This lasts between 12 and 18 months. For the remainder of the three year assignment, the function in a train-the-trainer role.

On top of all this, as has been said several times, encampment is not recruit training. Methods from the latter are rarely appropriate in the former.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Elioron on October 18, 2013, 05:58:23 PM
Aimed more at Collins than OP.

Still not something that can be posted easily on a board like this.  The only answer I can think of would be the full text of the encampment curriculum and procedures.  I'm sure you could get what we use from our Commandant if you like.

As for baby and bathwater...sometimes you just need a blank slate. It's that or a decade of cultural change, and I doubt NHQ will give them that with the new curriculum.

It needs to be taken straight on, and doesn't take nearly that long if you have Senior Leadership that are committed.  Most cadets have completely moved on in half that time.  As I understand it took about two years to reset the focus here.  It involves swift and firm corrections.  Avoiding the culture doesn't make it go away.  Lessons learned in hardship last longer and have more positive impacts.  The general culture that has developed in our society of avoiding conflict at all costs has no place here.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Pulsar on October 18, 2013, 06:14:34 PM
Lessons learned in hardship last longer and have more positive impacts.  The general culture that has developed in our society of avoiding conflict at all costs has no place here.

Well said. The stress also helps one to act in stressful situations.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Elioron on October 18, 2013, 06:18:39 PM
The stress also helps one to act in stressful situations.

That's not even the main issue, particularly with an organization like ours.  More to the point, learning a lesson in hardship has a far greater impact on our memory as we had to go through more to get it.  Further, overcoming such obstacles increases confidence and self-esteem to be able to handle situations throughout life.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: SamFranklin on October 18, 2013, 06:22:15 PM
Interesting...I think the mindset depicted in "The Lords of Discipline" illustrates exactly what we should NOT aspire to.

Yes, "The Lords of Discipline" is another great example of the point I was trying to make. I haven't read the book, but the film dramatizes the class / caste system in old-style military training by focusing on how the hero (Brian Keith?) develops empathy for the first black student admitted into the corps. Take South Carolina patrician legacies, set the drama at The Citadel, add 1960s desegregation, and add sadistic hazing under the guise of "discipline" and yeah, you get quite the horror story... a senselessly horrific organizational culture where, (spoiler alert!) at story's end the hero realizes he wants no part of the "honor" he had thought the school epitomized. The school presented one image but to the enlightened graduate, that school stood for dishonor, not virtue.  Ronny Cox (?), "I'm a soldier, not a sadist."  Um, sir, if you have to make that distinction, you're already lost. Great stuff.

 
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Pulsar on October 18, 2013, 06:26:28 PM
The question I posit is this: can a cadet, likely around 16 years old in an encampment flight leadership position, navigate that fine line successfully? What training do they have in how to manage the "intensity" so they don't go over the edge? What do we do as senior members to properly prepare cadets to manage such an event? If the training isn't part of it, where are they drawing their experience from, other than "my flight sergeant yelled at me when I was a basic?" I mean, none of the leadership books I've seen reference yelling and intensity as a leadership method.

I know at our encampment, staff shows up four days before for training.  A lot of it deals specifically with intensity - how to instill it, how to keep from going over the line, how to regulate it according to the syllabus.  Even so, we don't leave it entirely up to the cadet staff.  There is a Senior Member with each flight 24/7.  The primary purpose of the TAC Officer is to monitor the cadets and the staff to make sure things are on track and to help those cadets who have issues.  This is important because, just as with everything else we do, cadets will be at a wide range of maturity and experience.  As has been mentioned before, some can't even handle being away from home, much less being held to a schedule.  One almost went home because they couldn't handle communal showers, others are fine with it.  There are a lot of Senior Staff to help out, and pretty much every flight has some sort of breakdown every night.

Is it easy?  No.  It requires vigilance on the part of the senior Cadet Staff and the Senior Staff, but that is the least we can do to help all of the participants to grow.  If it was easy, nobody would come away with anything useful.  I think we owe to them and our organization to build the best people we can.

We had two TAC officers per squadron. Staff trained a lot before it began.
 Additionally, PAWG has a whole other advanced school that not only teaches you to be a first- line supervisor, but is meant to show you how far you can go. It trains you to staff encampment. If you go to Leadership Development Course, you can staff PAWG encampment. -even if you haven't been to RCLS. LDC is much more intense than ENC. It is run by trained Senior Members and a few cadet officers. Instead of staff drilling the flight around, a cadet drills his flight around.
Here's an excerpt from the PAWG cadet training schools website:

"This course provides the necessary foundation for future leaders in both wing activities and at the home squadron and meets core requirements for staffing further Pennsylvania Wing schools. While LDC is not a replacement for, nor does it meet the Cadet Program requirements of RCLS/COS for the Eaker Award, it provides cadets an opportunity to hone their initial leadership skills in a much more hands-on environment through practical leadership training in preparation for continued academic training in RCLS."
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: ol'fido on October 18, 2013, 08:43:00 PM
The question I posit is this: can a cadet, likely around 16 years old in an encampment flight leadership position, navigate that fine line successfully? What training do they have in how to manage the "intensity" so they don't go over the edge? What do we do as senior members to properly prepare cadets to manage such an event? If the training isn't part of it, where are they drawing their experience from, other than "my flight sergeant yelled at me when I was a basic?" I mean, none of the leadership books I've seen reference yelling and intensity as a leadership method.

I know at our encampment, staff shows up four days before for training.  A lot of it deals specifically with intensity - how to instill it, how to keep from going over the line, how to regulate it according to the syllabus.  Even so, we don't leave it entirely up to the cadet staff.  There is a Senior Member with each flight 24/7.  The primary purpose of the TAC Officer is to monitor the cadets and the staff to make sure things are on track and to help those cadets who have issues.  This is important because, just as with everything else we do, cadets will be at a wide range of maturity and experience.  As has been mentioned before, some can't even handle being away from home, much less being held to a schedule.  One almost went home because they couldn't handle communal showers, others are fine with it.  There are a lot of Senior Staff to help out, and pretty much every flight has some sort of breakdown every night.

Is it easy?  No.  It requires vigilance on the part of the senior Cadet Staff and the Senior Staff, but that is the least we can do to help all of the participants to grow.  If it was easy, nobody would come away with anything useful.  I think we owe to them and our organization to build the best people we can.

We had two TAC officers per squadron. Staff trained a lot before it began.
 Additionally, PAWG has a whole other advanced school that not only teaches you to be a first- line supervisor, but is meant to show you how far you can go. It trains you to staff encampment. If you go to Leadership Development Course, you can staff PAWG encampment. -even if you haven't been to RCLS. LDC is much more intense than ENC. It is run by trained Senior Members and a few cadet officers. Instead of staff drilling the flight around, a cadet drills his flight around.
Here's an excerpt from the PAWG cadet training schools website:

"This course provides the necessary foundation for future leaders in both wing activities and at the home squadron and meets core requirements for staffing further Pennsylvania Wing schools. While LDC is not a replacement for, nor does it meet the Cadet Program requirements of RCLS/COS for the Eaker Award, it provides cadets an opportunity to hone their initial leadership skills in a much more hands-on environment through practical leadership training in preparation for continued academic training in RCLS."
In other words, your encampment is like nearly every other encampment in the country in the way it is organized.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: ol'fido on October 18, 2013, 08:45:33 PM
Aimed more at Collins than OP.

Still not something that can be posted easily on a board like this.  The only answer I can think of would be the full text of the encampment curriculum and procedures.  I'm sure you could get what we use from our Commandant if you like.

As for baby and bathwater...sometimes you just need a blank slate. It's that or a decade of cultural change, and I doubt NHQ will give them that with the new curriculum.

It needs to be taken straight on, and doesn't take nearly that long if you have Senior Leadership that are committed.  Most cadets have completely moved on in half that time.  As I understand it took about two years to reset the focus here.  It involves swift and firm corrections.  Avoiding the culture doesn't make it go away.  Lessons learned in hardship last longer and have more positive impacts.  The general culture that has developed in our society of avoiding conflict at all costs has no place here.
Wow...just wow.  :o
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Pulsar on October 18, 2013, 08:53:10 PM
The question I posit is this: can a cadet, likely around 16 years old in an encampment flight leadership position, navigate that fine line successfully? What training do they have in how to manage the "intensity" so they don't go over the edge? What do we do as senior members to properly prepare cadets to manage such an event? If the training isn't part of it, where are they drawing their experience from, other than "my flight sergeant yelled at me when I was a basic?" I mean, none of the leadership books I've seen reference yelling and intensity as a leadership method.

I know at our encampment, staff shows up four days before for training.  A lot of it deals specifically with intensity - how to instill it, how to keep from going over the line, how to regulate it according to the syllabus.  Even so, we don't leave it entirely up to the cadet staff.  There is a Senior Member with each flight 24/7.  The primary purpose of the TAC Officer is to monitor the cadets and the staff to make sure things are on track and to help those cadets who have issues.  This is important because, just as with everything else we do, cadets will be at a wide range of maturity and experience.  As has been mentioned before, some can't even handle being away from home, much less being held to a schedule.  One almost went home because they couldn't handle communal showers, others are fine with it.  There are a lot of Senior Staff to help out, and pretty much every flight has some sort of breakdown every night.

Is it easy?  No.  It requires vigilance on the part of the senior Cadet Staff and the Senior Staff, but that is the least we can do to help all of the participants to grow.  If it was easy, nobody would come away with anything useful.  I think we owe to them and our organization to build the best people we can.

We had two TAC officers per squadron. Staff trained a lot before it began.
 Additionally, PAWG has a whole other advanced school that not only teaches you to be a first- line supervisor, but is meant to show you how far you can go. It trains you to staff encampment. If you go to Leadership Development Course, you can staff PAWG encampment. -even if you haven't been to RCLS. LDC is much more intense than ENC. It is run by trained Senior Members and a few cadet officers. Instead of staff drilling the flight around, a cadet drills his flight around.
Here's an excerpt from the PAWG cadet training schools website:

"This course provides the necessary foundation for future leaders in both wing activities and at the home squadron and meets core requirements for staffing further Pennsylvania Wing schools. While LDC is not a replacement for, nor does it meet the Cadet Program requirements of RCLS/COS for the Eaker Award, it provides cadets an opportunity to hone their initial leadership skills in a much more hands-on environment through practical leadership training in preparation for continued academic training in RCLS."
In other words, your encampment is like nearly every other encampment in the country in the way it is organized.

astute observation
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: ol'fido on October 18, 2013, 09:10:21 PM
The question I posit is this: can a cadet, likely around 16 years old in an encampment flight leadership position, navigate that fine line successfully? What training do they have in how to manage the "intensity" so they don't go over the edge? What do we do as senior members to properly prepare cadets to manage such an event? If the training isn't part of it, where are they drawing their experience from, other than "my flight sergeant yelled at me when I was a basic?" I mean, none of the leadership books I've seen reference yelling and intensity as a leadership method.

I know at our encampment, staff shows up four days before for training.  A lot of it deals specifically with intensity - how to instill it, how to keep from going over the line, how to regulate it according to the syllabus.  Even so, we don't leave it entirely up to the cadet staff.  There is a Senior Member with each flight 24/7.  The primary purpose of the TAC Officer is to monitor the cadets and the staff to make sure things are on track and to help those cadets who have issues.  This is important because, just as with everything else we do, cadets will be at a wide range of maturity and experience.  As has been mentioned before, some can't even handle being away from home, much less being held to a schedule.  One almost went home because they couldn't handle communal showers, others are fine with it.  There are a lot of Senior Staff to help out, and pretty much every flight has some sort of breakdown every night.

Is it easy?  No.  It requires vigilance on the part of the senior Cadet Staff and the Senior Staff, but that is the least we can do to help all of the participants to grow.  If it was easy, nobody would come away with anything useful.  I think we owe to them and our organization to build the best people we can.

We had two TAC officers per squadron. Staff trained a lot before it began.
 Additionally, PAWG has a whole other advanced school that not only teaches you to be a first- line supervisor, but is meant to show you how far you can go. It trains you to staff encampment. If you go to Leadership Development Course, you can staff PAWG encampment. -even if you haven't been to RCLS. LDC is much more intense than ENC. It is run by trained Senior Members and a few cadet officers. Instead of staff drilling the flight around, a cadet drills his flight around.
Here's an excerpt from the PAWG cadet training schools website:

"This course provides the necessary foundation for future leaders in both wing activities and at the home squadron and meets core requirements for staffing further Pennsylvania Wing schools. While LDC is not a replacement for, nor does it meet the Cadet Program requirements of RCLS/COS for the Eaker Award, it provides cadets an opportunity to hone their initial leadership skills in a much more hands-on environment through practical leadership training in preparation for continued academic training in RCLS."
In other words, your encampment is like nearly every other encampment in the country in the way it is organized.

astute observation
You posted the information as if your wing's encampment had broken the secret code for running an encampment. I was pointing out that nearly every other encampment in the country has two or more TAC Officers assigned to each squadron and runs a ATS, OTS, LDC, or some other staff training program. Nothing new there.

Apparently, however, you seem to feel that the way they conduct their encampment is superior to every other encampment  based on this.

I think I will follow George Carlin's advice and quit trying to argue with you.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on October 18, 2013, 09:41:25 PM
Wait, are you saying you never did an AAR for the large encampments you commanded?  Really?

Yes, really.  That's exactly what I am saying - no one asked.


I'm absolutely flabbergasted to read that.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Eclipse on October 18, 2013, 09:53:30 PM
Wait, are you saying you never did an AAR for the large encampments you commanded?  Really?

Yes, really.  That's exactly what I am saying - no one asked.


I'm absolutely flabbergasted to read that.

Frankly, I was when I first got involved as well.  My wing had the advantage of a very involved SD who we considered a partner, so I expect
we were ahead of some wings where the SDs were historically less involved.

It's not surprising, though, when you consider all the other parts of CAP that have zero continuity - ES missions, inspections, etc., etc.
There's tons of data collected, lessons learned, and best practices, yet they generally go no where, and every incident and activity
is treated like an OOBE (out of box experience).
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: UH60guy on October 18, 2013, 09:56:43 PM
The question I posit is this: can a cadet, likely around 16 years old in an encampment flight leadership position, navigate that fine line successfully? What training do they have in how to manage the "intensity" so they don't go over the edge? What do we do as senior members to properly prepare cadets to manage such an event? If the training isn't part of it, where are they drawing their experience from, other than "my flight sergeant yelled at me when I was a basic?" I mean, none of the leadership books I've seen reference yelling and intensity as a leadership method.

I know at our encampment, staff shows up four days before for training.  A lot of it deals specifically with intensity - how to instill it, how to keep from going over the line, how to regulate it according to the syllabus.  Even so, we don't leave it entirely up to the cadet staff.  There is a Senior Member with each flight 24/7.  The primary purpose of the TAC Officer is to monitor the cadets and the staff to make sure things are on track and to help those cadets who have issues.  This is important because, just as with everything else we do, cadets will be at a wide range of maturity and experience.  As has been mentioned before, some can't even handle being away from home, much less being held to a schedule.  One almost went home because they couldn't handle communal showers, others are fine with it.  There are a lot of Senior Staff to help out, and pretty much every flight has some sort of breakdown every night.

Is it easy?  No.  It requires vigilance on the part of the senior Cadet Staff and the Senior Staff, but that is the least we can do to help all of the participants to grow.  If it was easy, nobody would come away with anything useful.  I think we owe to them and our organization to build the best people we can.

We had two TAC officers per squadron. Staff trained a lot before it began.
 Additionally, PAWG has a whole other advanced school that not only teaches you to be a first- line supervisor, but is meant to show you how far you can go. It trains you to staff encampment. If you go to Leadership Development Course, you can staff PAWG encampment. -even if you haven't been to RCLS. LDC is much more intense than ENC. It is run by trained Senior Members and a few cadet officers. Instead of staff drilling the flight around, a cadet drills his flight around.
Here's an excerpt from the PAWG cadet training schools website:

"This course provides the necessary foundation for future leaders in both wing activities and at the home squadron and meets core requirements for staffing further Pennsylvania Wing schools. While LDC is not a replacement for, nor does it meet the Cadet Program requirements of RCLS/COS for the Eaker Award, it provides cadets an opportunity to hone their initial leadership skills in a much more hands-on environment through practical leadership training in preparation for continued academic training in RCLS."

Roger, got it. I admit I'm new to CAP- only been in a year and a half, an attended my first encampment this summer. I attended the required staff training to be a TAC officer, and aside from cadet protection stuff, there wasn't any specific block of instruction on how to bring "intensity" or for all intents and purposes, do anything differently than we do at any weekly meeting (except on a longer scale). Obviously I can't apply one year of one wing's staff training to the CAP institution as a whole, but I still honestly don't understand where the expectation of intensity and yelling comes from, other than a TV/movie/misguided view of what military life is like. And there certainly wasn't any training on how to build a team through breaking them down first.

The team building stuff we introduced in staff training was fairly innocuous- something about building a structure out of marshmallows and toothpicks. Plus, team building is built in to other events in our encampment, such as the field leader reaction course (problem solving obstacles), while "intensity" could be gained from cadets being away from home for the first time or on adventure activities. Don't get me wrong, it may have its place, but my burning question is whether cadet leadership (and TAC supervisors) can wield or even need to use such a tool at encampment.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Eclipse on October 18, 2013, 10:03:47 PM
Roger, got it. I admit I'm new to CAP- only been in a year and a half, an attended my first encampment this summer. I attended the required staff training to be a TAC officer, and aside from cadet protection stuff, there wasn't any specific block of instruction on how to bring "intensity" or for all intents and purposes, do anything differently than we do at any weekly meeting (except on a longer scale). Obviously I can't apply one year of one wing's staff training to the CAP institution as a whole, but I still honestly don't understand where the expectation of intensity and yelling comes from, other than a TV/movie/misguided view of what military life is like. And there certainly wasn't any training on how to build a team through breaking them down first.

It's all emulation of mass media - you won't find any of that sort of thing anywhere in any CAP training, yet it's "mentored" into the diaspora somehow.

The current revision of the encampment curriculum, RST, nor 52-16, makes any mention or provide training in regards to intensity.  The new curriculum and RST, which does contain some language and fairly light guidance, is still in draft and not required for use.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Elioron on October 19, 2013, 01:48:51 AM
The team building stuff we introduced in staff training was fairly innocuous- something about building a structure out of marshmallows and toothpicks. Plus, team building is built in to other events in our encampment, such as the field leader reaction course (problem solving obstacles), while "intensity" could be gained from cadets being away from home for the first time or on adventure activities. Don't get me wrong, it may have its place, but my burning question is whether cadet leadership (and TAC supervisors) can wield or even need to use such a tool at encampment.

The staff training here is very different, but one thing I should point out is that TAC Officers are not there to instill intensity.  The entire purpose of the TAC Officer is to be the island in the storm, to monitor the line staff so they don't get out of hand and a safe place for cadets having issues (of any kind).  If line staff gets personal, or abusive, or in any way creates a no-win situation for cadets, the TAC Officers are right there to refocus.  Repeat or grievous offenders will be removed from their positions and replaced - one reason that support staff from logistics to food services go through the same selection process and training.

The pre-encampment training may have had a couple of team building exercises, but most of it was leadership, the encampment curriculum, and several sessions each day about intensity.

If you're relying on being away from home or adventure activities to provide intensity, most of our cadets wouldn't be engaged except for about four hours on day five.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Pulsar on October 19, 2013, 07:36:57 PM
The question I posit is this: can a cadet, likely around 16 years old in an encampment flight leadership position, navigate that fine line successfully? What training do they have in how to manage the "intensity" so they don't go over the edge? What do we do as senior members to properly prepare cadets to manage such an event? If the training isn't part of it, where are they drawing their experience from, other than "my flight sergeant yelled at me when I was a basic?" I mean, none of the leadership books I've seen reference yelling and intensity as a leadership method.

I know at our encampment, staff shows up four days before for training.  A lot of it deals specifically with intensity - how to instill it, how to keep from going over the line, how to regulate it according to the syllabus.  Even so, we don't leave it entirely up to the cadet staff.  There is a Senior Member with each flight 24/7.  The primary purpose of the TAC Officer is to monitor the cadets and the staff to make sure things are on track and to help those cadets who have issues.  This is important because, just as with everything else we do, cadets will be at a wide range of maturity and experience.  As has been mentioned before, some can't even handle being away from home, much less being held to a schedule.  One almost went home because they couldn't handle communal showers, others are fine with it.  There are a lot of Senior Staff to help out, and pretty much every flight has some sort of breakdown every night.

Is it easy?  No.  It requires vigilance on the part of the senior Cadet Staff and the Senior Staff, but that is the least we can do to help all of the participants to grow.  If it was easy, nobody would come away with anything useful.  I think we owe to them and our organization to build the best people we can.

We had two TAC officers per squadron. Staff trained a lot before it began.
 Additionally, PAWG has a whole other advanced school that not only teaches you to be a first- line supervisor, but is meant to show you how far you can go. It trains you to staff encampment. If you go to Leadership Development Course, you can staff PAWG encampment. -even if you haven't been to RCLS. LDC is much more intense than ENC. It is run by trained Senior Members and a few cadet officers. Instead of staff drilling the flight around, a cadet drills his flight around.
Here's an excerpt from the PAWG cadet training schools website:

"This course provides the necessary foundation for future leaders in both wing activities and at the home squadron and meets core requirements for staffing further Pennsylvania Wing schools. While LDC is not a replacement for, nor does it meet the Cadet Program requirements of RCLS/COS for the Eaker Award, it provides cadets an opportunity to hone their initial leadership skills in a much more hands-on environment through practical leadership training in preparation for continued academic training in RCLS."
In other words, your encampment is like nearly every other encampment in the country in the way it is organized.

astute observation
You posted the information as if your wing's encampment had broken the secret code for running an encampment. I was pointing out that nearly every other encampment in the country has two or more TAC Officers assigned to each squadron and runs a ATS, OTS, LDC, or some other staff training program. Nothing new there.

Apparently, however, you seem to feel that the way they conduct their encampment is superior to every other encampment  based on this.

I think I will follow George Carlin's advice and quit trying to argue with you.

 :( Sorry, I guess I'm indoctrinated. (not saying that's a good thing)  :-X
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: JK657 on October 23, 2013, 04:42:27 PM
I've watched the youtube video that was posted on this thread a few times and I just cannot wrap my head around the thought that the senior leaders think this is what right looks like. I hope things have changed over the last few years since it was made
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 23, 2013, 05:52:20 PM
Saw a 2013 North East encampment vid on YouTube. Caught a glimpse of a formation and a guy in a smokey bear hat...2013.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: a2capt on October 23, 2013, 06:01:01 PM
The same kind of hat that was specifically called out and circulated widely as a specific example of unauthorized?
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 23, 2013, 06:20:46 PM
Right. After 2012 encampment season.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: ol'fido on October 23, 2013, 06:23:19 PM
I will say that we have had a person wearing a "Smokey" at the Illinois Wing Summer Encampment. However, this person was a former cadet and senior member who is currently stationed at Lackland AFB as an MTI. Although, he has just been selected for commissioning in the AF Medical Service Corps. When he was wearing the smokey(and his AF ABUs) he was giving our ATS cadets a class on leadership and AVOIDING "FULL METAL JACKET" SYNDROME. I think he would find this thread very curious.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: a2capt on October 23, 2013, 06:27:02 PM
Right. After 2012 encampment season.
Maybe some poor PAO will slipup and post something.. and it gets noticed.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: superchief1077 on December 30, 2013, 11:13:33 PM
I know this is an old post but I thought this would be fun......

I got bored and started reading different posts. I got to this one and it caught my attention. A little background: I spent my last Encampment a couple of years ago and went to boot camp at Parris Island right afterwards so it's been a while. I've been to 5 Encampments as a cadet so I'm totally aware that basic training and basic Encampment are not the same. However, CAP cadets do tend to impersonate Marine Corps boot camp the most thanks to YouTube, I did to when I was 13, but who isn't guilty of being just 13.

A lot of you guys talk about the "Full Metal Jacket Syndrome" and how it doesn't happen today. So I thought I'd talk about how boot is done today in its modern state and compare/contrast FMJ since it seems like there are a few vets here that have been for a while.

People don't give enough credit to R Lee Ermy. Yeah, it's no secret his portrayal of a Drill Instructor was that of an abusive sadistic monster. However, he wasn't even supposed to be casted as Gunny Hartman. This was because he portrayed a Drill Instructor before the Hartman role and Stanley Kubrik thought he was too nice for the role.

In his role as Staff Sergeant Loyce from the movie "Boys of Company C", he acts as a Drill Instructor that is not just portrayed as some monster that crushes people's souls, but as someone who is training people to survive Vietnam. The movie still has the abusive language that you find with Hartman, however it is the MENTORSHIP provided to one of his recruits that truly shows the kind of leadership and instruction that CAP, in my opinion, lacks. He shows that he trains them to a standard because it's up to him how "they come back". Now, we don't have the job of sending these kids to war (you should all thank God you don't have that responsibility), but we still have the duty of developing these young people into better citizens and future leaders.

As the FMJ platoon had their Senior, my platoon had ours. To truly understand what a Senior Drill Instructor does that's relatable to CAP members, I'll use Encampment Staff positions to help describe him. The Senior is a mix of the TAC Officer and a Flight/Squadron CC. TAC Officer in that they have the administrative and mentoring responsibilities. Squadron/Flight CC in that they were responsibility in training and graduating them. They've usually had 4-7 cycles (12-21 months) as junior DI before picking up Senior. They act as the Dad/Mom of the Platoon. When things go south, they pick everyone up off the ground and help them stand up. If the subordinate DI's get too out of hand, the Senior "saves" the platoon from getting blazed, smoked etc. This last part is a sort of "bad cop good cop" act. It's used in order to create loyalty to the platoon instead of needlessly telling Officers which will end Marine's careers if something is slightly not done according to the SOP.

I say this last part because of this thing where things have "changed" since the Vietnam era. Drill Instructors still do things that you see in the movies. I've seen things that make Hartman look like wuss. In protection of other Marines, I won't say any specifics, but just know that what happens in the house stays in the house. Plus I know some of you cadets aspire to become Marines so I don't wanna spoil all the games you get to experience at boot and even more so in the Fleet especially if you choose to go into a combat arms MOS, mainly the grunts (get used to the tree line if you do choose 03XX and choose to be a garbage Marine).

Anyways, back to the Senior. The main he does that the other DI's and instructors won't do is sit down man to man and mentor you. He can lift you up or break your heart. He gives you his experience and tells you WHY you are being yelled at by others and WHY you are getting trained in these certain aspects. Everything has PURPOSE and there is a TIME and PLACE for everything. When we were doing drill, it was time to get serious and expect to get our footlockers dumped* in the showers if we didn't (*DISCLAIMER: Not an excuse to do this at your Encampment or unit; find other ways to prove your point). If we were sitting down in a school circle drinking gatorade that he let us have, than it was okay to let loose just a tad bit.

When we were in this school circle, we talked about core values, practical skills in the fleet (ie how to choose a faithful spouse), what he did in the fleet, how DI's work and why, and life in general. Most cadets don't have this kind of experience, but even a lot of the other DI's don't have the experience my Senior had. However, as a wise man once told me "you may not know everything, but what you DO know makes you valuable". Also, I was a squad leader, so he put some extra attention on me in making sure I was leading my squad correctly. Granted, I wasn't even 18 yet but I had experience from CAP so I knew how to yell* (yeah I know some of you are going to squirm*) and you were made sort of a "mini DI" basically to save the DI's voice from yelling or even just talking.

Did he yell at us? Let's just say he was the loudest and his veins and face turned into reddish purplish colors I have never seen.

Did he destroy us at times? Of course. It's boot camp duh.

Did he call us maggots? Of course not... but he definitely called us names that rhymes with the aforementioned words that were among his and realistically all other Marine's vocabulary. 

However, he was honest in what he told us. Everything he said was genuine and he made us into better people because of this. I've learned that honesty truly is the best policy. Do I think cadets and seniors should be using the same vocab? No. But I do think that when you don't sugarcoat it you are doing them a favor.

The other DI's were the same, despite their demeanor compared to the Senior. 3/4 DI's, including my Senior, have their Combat Action Ribbon which is very good considering how many DI's and other branches' Basic Training Instructors have actually been into combat. The mentorship, explanation of training, and the core values he instilled in us was what made us into Marines.

That's about it of what I have to say. I just thought you would like to hear my brain throw up of words. Also, to keep this in mind, boot camp is by far the EASIEST thing you will do in the military. If you think otherwise your job is too easy or you have been out for too long. After boot you're a grown up and you better be able to do your job or stand by Gunny or 1st Sgt's office for a world of hurt. God help you if you screw up in the field like losing your rifle.... ha get ready for all night games. But that's the fleet.......

I hope this helps bring more mentorship into mind when training cadets in Encampment.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: SilentPhantom on May 10, 2014, 08:53:11 PM
I don't really remember much of my in-processing, even though it was only a year ago. But I do remember that the intensity level was only like 3 or 4, until the parents left anyway. Then it was like a 8 or 9. I got called out a lofty number of times during the week; but it was my own fault.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Fubar on May 11, 2014, 12:28:51 AM
I don't really remember much of my in-processing, even though it was only a year ago. But I do remember that the intensity level was only like 3 or 4, until the parents left anyway. Then it was like a 8 or 9. I got called out a lofty number of times during the week; but it was my own fault.

If waiting to change the intesity level was deliberately done after all of the parents were out of ear shot, then I worry someone was afraid of what the parents would think about how the encampment was being run. Nothing should be done to a cadet that you wouldn't do with that cadet's parent in the room.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on May 11, 2014, 01:47:10 AM
I don't really remember much of my in-processing, even though it was only a year ago. But I do remember that the intensity level was only like 3 or 4, until the parents left anyway. Then it was like a 8 or 9. I got called out a lofty number of times during the week; but it was my own fault.

If waiting to change the intesity level was deliberately done after all of the parents were out of ear shot, then I worry someone was afraid of what the parents would think about how the encampment was being run. Nothing should be done to a cadet that you wouldn't do with that cadet's parent in the room.

While I agree with the sentiment, the new encampment curriculum actually had tasks that are to be done without parents.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: SilentPhantom on May 11, 2014, 11:13:41 AM
I don't really remember much of my in-processing, even though it was only a year ago. But I do remember that the intensity level was only like 3 or 4, until the parents left anyway. Then it was like a 8 or 9. I got called out a lofty number of times during the week; but it was my own fault.

If waiting to change the intesity level was deliberately done after all of the parents were out of ear shot, then I worry someone was afraid of what the parents would think about how the encampment was being run. Nothing should be done to a cadet that you wouldn't do with that cadet's parent in the room.

What I mean is the intensity level didn't really go up until the parents had left. The basics weren't indoctrinated into their flights until after all the parents were gone.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Fubar on May 11, 2014, 03:31:47 PM
What I mean is the intensity level didn't really go up until the parents had left. The basics weren't indoctrinated into their flights until after all the parents were gone.

So my question remains, what was the purpose of waiting to increase the "intensity level" until after all the parents were gone?

I'd also like to know how cadets are "indoctrinated" into a flight. I've seen cadets assigned to a flight before, but indoctrination didn't seem to be required.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Garibaldi on May 11, 2014, 04:03:43 PM
What I mean is the intensity level didn't really go up until the parents had left. The basics weren't indoctrinated into their flights until after all the parents were gone.

So my question remains, what was the purpose of waiting to increase the "intensity level" until after all the parents were gone?

I'd also like to know how cadets are "indoctrinated" into a flight. I've seen cadets assigned to a flight before, but indoctrination didn't seem to be required.

Why am I suddenly reminded of Will Mclean's plebe year in the novel The Lords of Discipline? The cadre was all nice until the last parent left, then turned the dial into instant insanity.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: SilentPhantom on May 11, 2014, 04:07:07 PM
What I mean is the intensity level didn't really go up until the parents had left. The basics weren't indoctrinated into their flights until after all the parents were gone.

So my question remains, what was the purpose of waiting to increase the "intensity level" until after all the parents were gone?

I'd also like to know how cadets are "indoctrinated" into a flight. I've seen cadets assigned to a flight before, but indoctrination didn't seem to be required.

Ok, we were marched onto the parade feild, sat down, our flight staff introduced themselves and took out watches. That's what I mean when I say 'indoctrinated'. That part was only like a 3 or 4 intensity level.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: SilentPhantom on June 06, 2014, 12:57:32 PM
Staff training for my wing's encampment stars in a few days and when the basics arrive next week, I'm gonna be like, "Welcome to encampment, and may the odds be ever in your favor." I wonder if I'll be able to do it with a straight face....
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: THRAWN on June 06, 2014, 01:07:37 PM
Staff training for my wing's encampment stars in a few days and when the basics arrive next week, I'm gonna be like, "Welcome to encampment, and may the odds be ever in your favor." I wonder if I'll be able to do it with a straight face....

For all that is good and holy, please don't...
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Eclipse on June 06, 2014, 01:12:45 PM
Staff training for my wing's encampment stars in a few days and when the basics arrive next week, I'm gonna be like, "Welcome to encampment, and may the odds be ever in your favor." I wonder if I'll be able to do it with a straight face....

Credibility can only be lost once.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: SilentPhantom on June 06, 2014, 01:51:10 PM
Staff training for my wing's encampment stars in a few days and when the basics arrive next week, I'm gonna be like, "Welcome to encampment, and may the odds be ever in your favor." I wonder if I'll be able to do it with a straight face....

Credibility can only be lost once.
Staff training for my wing's encampment stars in a few days and when the basics arrive next week, I'm gonna be like, "Welcome to encampment, and may the odds be ever in your favor." I wonder if I'll be able to do it with a straight face....

For all that is good and holy, please don't...

haha i'm only joking! ;D  things like that are things I've only heard said during flight time and bearing busters  :o some staff just can't take their jobs seriously...
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on June 06, 2014, 06:01:40 PM
Staff training for my wing's encampment stars in a few days and when the basics arrive next week, I'm gonna be like, "Welcome to encampment, and may the odds be ever in your favor." I wonder if I'll be able to do it with a straight face....

Credibility can only be lost once.
Staff training for my wing's encampment stars in a few days and when the basics arrive next week, I'm gonna be like, "Welcome to encampment, and may the odds be ever in your favor." I wonder if I'll be able to do it with a straight face....

For all that is good and holy, please don't...

haha i'm only joking! ;D  things like that are things I've only heard said during flight time and bearing busters  :o some staff just can't take their jobs seriously...

And......there's that silly "bearing busters" thing again. My three wishes to the genie evidently didn't work.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: PA Guy on June 06, 2014, 06:30:44 PM
 


Ha Ha. A staff member that can't take their job seriously should be fired and sent home. It demonstrates a lack of leadership and professionalism.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Eclipse on June 06, 2014, 06:31:43 PM
If members, across the board, seniors and cadets alike, spent as much time and effort working the program,
as they do making up silly hardkewl names for activities, "busting bearing", yelling jodies that are inappropriate and
not even close to in time, and otherwise making fools of themselves and ruining their credibility, both internally and
externally, we'd all be that much closer to CAP actually being what it purports to be.

Members do not need to "blow off steam" - they come to CAP to specifically experience the discipline and structure
they never get in their real lives.  Goofing off robs them of that structure and sets a terrible example, not to mention
it implies that CAP members ever come close to the stress or expectation(s) that those in the military do.
They don't, they >want< to be there, and assuming the activity is being run properly, they are literally craving the
structure and intensity.

Further to that, you are going home at the end of the week / weekend - by the time you are "stressed", you're home.

I have seen and worked with many top-tier cadets and seniors, but I have yet to meet any who are so experienced, proficient,
and skilled, in >ANYTHING< that they can justify wasted CAP-time goofing off.

Now...get your bikes off my lawn and I'm keeping the baseballs that flew over my fence.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: PA Guy on June 06, 2014, 06:51:28 PM
If members, across the board, seniors and cadets alike, spent as much time and effort working the program,
as they do making up silly hardkewl names for activities, "busting bearing", yelling jodies that are inappropriate and
not even close to in time, and otherwise making fools of themselves and ruining their credibility, both internally and
externally, we'd all be that much closer to CAP actually being what it purports to be.

Members do not need to "blow off steam" - they come to CAP to specifically experience the discipline and structre
they never get in their real lives.  Further to that, you are going home at the end of the week / weekend - by the time
you are "stressed", you're home.

I have seen and worked with many top-tier cadets and seniors, but I have yet to meet any who are so experienced, proficient,
and skilled, in >ANYTHING< that they can justify wasted CAP-time goofing off.

As most of you are aware Eclipse and I seldom agree on anything but in this post he is spot on. 
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Cadetter on June 06, 2014, 07:23:27 PM
Members do not need to "blow off steam" - they come to CAP to specifically experience the discipline and structure
they never get in their real lives.  Goofing off robs them of that structure and sets a terrible example, not to mention
it implies that CAP members ever come close to the stress or expectation(s) that those in the military do.
They don't, they >want< to be there, and assuming the activity is being run properly, they are literally craving the
structure and intensity.

Goofing off to a small extent can sometimes be OK. CAP can be for "that type of" friends. But if staff goofs off it sends many messages, like 1) it's ok for you to, too, and 2) we're only human too. Both have pros and cons... I've seen squadrons strangled by straight-faced professionalism.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: SilentPhantom on June 06, 2014, 07:36:37 PM
Staff training for my wing's encampment stars in a few days and when the basics arrive next week, I'm gonna be like, "Welcome to encampment, and may the odds be ever in your favor." I wonder if I'll be able to do it with a straight face....

Credibility can only be lost once.
Staff training for my wing's encampment stars in a few days and when the basics arrive next week, I'm gonna be like, "Welcome to encampment, and may the odds be ever in your favor." I wonder if I'll be able to do it with a straight face....

For all that is good and holy, please don't...

haha i'm only joking! ;D  things like that are things I've only heard said during flight time and bearing busters  :o some staff just can't take their jobs seriously...

And......there's that silly "bearing busters" thing again. My three wishes to the genie evidently didn't work.

yes, i'm afraid they didn't....
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: SilentPhantom on June 06, 2014, 07:38:14 PM
 


Ha Ha. A staff member that can't take their job seriously should be fired and sent home. It demonstrates a lack of leadership and professionalism.

^+1
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Eclipse on June 06, 2014, 07:52:49 PM
I've seen squadrons strangled by straight-faced professionalism.

Strangled?
I promise you that you will never, ever hear anyone tell you that "Those cadets looks too 'professional".

There are degrees to everything, and a difference between taking your precious CAP time seriously, and
making it a worthwhile experience for all involved, and thinking that CAP is BMT.

A squadron engaged in effective, program-centric activities will never hurt for members or spirit,
but the ones who focus too much on the picnics, parties, and social aspects will find their members
wavering and less involved, since that's not what they joined for, and the entry-cost is too high for another
time-wasting coffee-clatch in their lives, and what happens, more quickly then you might expect, is
that you wind up with a majority of people only interested in the social, and few interested in the real work.
Fixing things from there can be >very< difficult, not to mention painful.

Balance is the key, something lost on many CAP CCs.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: lordmonar on June 06, 2014, 08:06:45 PM
Balance?  You just told them that you can't blow off steam as it robs people of their hard core structured experience!

So what's going to be?
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Cadetter on June 06, 2014, 08:11:15 PM
I've seen squadrons strangled by straight-faced professionalism.

Strangled?
I promise you that you will never, ever hear anyone tell you that "Those cadets looks too 'professional".

There are degrees to everything, and a difference between taking your precious CAP time seriously, and
making it a worthwhile experience for all involved, and thinking that CAP is BMT.

I have heard someone say, "Those cadets are trying too hard to be professional, they should lax up a bit."

I miss where I referred to CAP as BMT.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Eclipse on June 06, 2014, 08:13:45 PM
Balance?  You just told them that you can't blow off steam as it robs people of their hard core structured experience!

Duck, the point is coming over your head.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Eclipse on June 06, 2014, 08:15:08 PM
I've seen squadrons strangled by straight-faced professionalism.

Strangled?
I promise you that you will never, ever hear anyone tell you that "Those cadets looks too 'professional".

There are degrees to everything, and a difference between taking your precious CAP time seriously, and
making it a worthwhile experience for all involved, and thinking that CAP is BMT.

I have heard someone say, "Those cadets are trying too hard to be professional, they should lax up a bit."

I miss where I referred to CAP as BMT.

No one said >you< did. It's a broader point.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: lordmonar on June 06, 2014, 08:23:37 PM
Balance?  You just told them that you can't blow off steam as it robs people of their hard core structured experience!

Duck, the point is coming over your head.
Failure in communicating your point is the fault of the transmitter.  :)
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: PA Guy on June 07, 2014, 02:07:54 AM
Members do not need to "blow off steam" - they come to CAP to specifically experience the discipline and structure
they never get in their real lives.  Goofing off robs them of that structure and sets a terrible example, not to mention
it implies that CAP members ever come close to the stress or expectation(s) that those in the military do.
They don't, they >want< to be there, and assuming the activity is being run properly, they are literally craving the
structure and intensity.

Goofing off to a small extent can sometimes be OK. CAP can be for "that type of" friends. But if staff goofs off it sends many messages, like 1) it's ok for you to, too, and 2) we're only human too. Both have pros and cons... I've seen squadrons strangled by straight-faced professionalism.

You came on here asking for advice about how to motivate to promote.  First, there is no magic formula. Every cadet is different and respond to different motivators. That requires LEADERSHIP that must be practiced. It also requires PROFESSIONALISM which you seem to have problem with. Based on what you have posted in various threads the main activity of your sqdn seems to revolve around "funning". While you think screwing with someone's uniform just prior to inspection is hilarious it is a violation of the Core Values. The two comedians who make fun of the cadet commander when they don't like his orders are violating the Cadet Oath. If the c/cc lets them get away with it that is a massive failure in leadership.

You and your sqdn have to make a decision. Do you want to be CAP cadets or a clown colony? You also need to practice leadership and yes, professionalism. Otherwise why would anyone take you seriously when you try to motivate them. Your call. FWIW
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Cadetter on June 07, 2014, 02:42:09 AM
OK, here goes...


You came on here asking for advice about how to motivate to promote.  First, there is no magic formula. Every cadet is different and respond to different motivators.


I was looking for ways that others worked. I definitely agree there's no formula.


It also requires PROFESSIONALISM which you seem to have problem with. Based on what you have posted in various threads the main activity of your sqdn seems to revolve around "funning". While you think screwing with someone's uniform just prior to inspection is hilarious it is a violation of the Core Values. The two comedians who make fun of the cadet commander when they don't like his orders are violating the Cadet Oath. If the c/cc lets them get away with it that is a massive failure in leadership.


We are professional. We (minus staff) make jokes, when on 5 minute breaks and before meetings. The prankster only grabbed everyone's cover and rank because they agreed. If anyone had said no, they would have called off the prank.

As for violating his orders, they don't get away with it. They aren't making fun of the C/CC, they make the joke on themselves, and improve behavior.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Cadetter on June 07, 2014, 02:44:27 AM
If anyone wants to continue this, PM me. I refuse to discuss this more in this thread. This has nothing to do with encampment, and I'm not used to setting off topic.
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on June 07, 2014, 07:04:28 PM
Quote
Staff training for my wing's encampment stars in a few days...


I am pretty sure that others agree... staff are stars!
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Garibaldi on June 08, 2014, 03:39:22 PM
If anyone wants to continue this, PM me. I refuse to discuss this more in this thread. This has nothing to do with encampment, and I'm not used to setting off topic.

Holy crap on a cracker...a cadet admitting that this thread drift is actually detrimental to his question/concern. Mark the day down on your calendar!  :clap:
Title: Re: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
Post by: Cadetter on June 08, 2014, 04:06:24 PM
If anyone wants to continue this, PM me. I refuse to discuss this more in this thread. This has nothing to do with encampment, and I'm not used to setting off topic.

Holy crap on a cracker...a cadet admitting that this thread drift is actually detrimental to his question/concern. Mark the day down on your calendar!  :clap:

Lol... assumption there =P