Lightning Safety Awareness Week

[RADIOMAN015]

See:  http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/
Good information. 

Our squadron had a camp out this last weekend on our support military base in the wooded training area and the seniors & cadets evacuated twice for a few hours each time back to main base due to TStorms.    Although there's some buildings out at the training area, the light poles sometimes get hit and both base ops and base weather were recommending evacuation.     

RM

[RogueLeader]

Lightning only hurts when you get hit.

WIOAD, we had to evacuate open areas when lightning was around, and for 30 min after last bolt.

[Woodsy]

Geez, if we ran away every time the sky flashed, we'd never get anything done around here... 

[SABRE17]

I marshaled a Global Express (huge private jet) yesterday during a thunderstorm, I was quite aware of the lightning...

[RADIOMAN015]

I marshaled a Global Express (huge private jet) yesterday during a thunderstorm, I was quite aware of the lightning...

At our support base, when there's lightning within five miles, they close the flight line and there's no aircraft maintenance or vehicles (other than security forces) that are driving around.  I've even monitored on the scanner an aircraft land just prior to a lightning alert and the personnel on the aircraft could not get off until after the warning had been lifted.

So from a CAP standpoint it's quite clear on the policy.  IF you hear thunder in the distance you need to get to a safe place.

As far as your employment goes  marshaling in aircraft during a TStorm, IF you were injured or killed your employer will have absolutely NO defense and probably is violating OSHA regulations by requiring you to be on that flight line.

RM       

[RADIOMAN015]

Geez, if we ran away every time the sky flashed, we'd never get anything done around here...

Guess that's YOUR personal choice on what YOU do.  IF it involves CAP personnel, especially cadets, the policy is to seek safe shelter.
RM

[Eclipse]

So from a CAP standpoint it's quite clear on the policy.  IF you hear thunder in the distance you need to get to a safe place.

No such policy exists in CAP.

[RADIOMAN015]

So from a CAP standpoint it's quite clear on the policy.  IF you hear thunder in the distance you need to get to a safe place.

No such policy exists in CAP.

Please see:
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Jun_2012_Safety_Beacon_837DEB3256E12.pdf] [url]http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Jun_2012_Safety_Beacon_837DEB3256E12.pdf  [/url]

It would appear to me that IF it is in a safety bulletin, CAP would be looking for awareness/ compliance.   HOWEVER, since you are at the wing level in emergency services, I'm sure you would have the real scoop on all those policies to protect your ES teams in the field :angel:
RM   

[Eclipse]

The quoted article doesn't assert any CAP policy in regards to this issue.

The proper stance on this issue is to be informed of the dangers and use ORM to be as safe as possible while still accomplishing the mission, not simply run indoors every time someone hears a car back fire.

[RADIOMAN015]

The quoted article doesn't assert any CAP policy in regards to this issue.

The proper stance on this issue is to be informed of the dangers and use ORM to be as safe as possible while still accomplishing the mission, not simply run indoors every time someone hears a car back fire.

I'm not talking about car back fire -- and you know that .   I don't think anyone on any training mission'activity is interested in taking ANY chances when when there's TStorms in the area.  Even on an actual mission, perhaps one might consider pushing the envelope a bit more, but even then the safety of our personnel is the most important factor.   I know with our radio equipment we will unplug power & disconnect antenna cables from the radio when TStorms are in the area.   I don't think anyone is going to get any extra points for pressing on, BUT will definitely bear the brunt of responsibility IF something goes astray.   That safety bulletin published by National says go to a safe place when thunder is heard, so that's what the ORM worksheet should state in EVERY ground field team deployment and aircraft launch.   I don't think any member in charge of any deployed field team/aircraft is willing to carry the burden of not complying with this instruction.
RM   
                 

       
 

[Eclipse]

That safety bulletin published by National...

It's not a "safety bulletin" - it's the monthly newsletter.  To imply anything else imbues it with a level of urgency which does not exist.

...says go to a safe place when thunder is heard, so that's what the ORM worksheet should state in EVERY ground field team deployment and aircraft launch.   

You're entitled to your opinion, and should feel free to submit your thoughts to NHQ, but don't imply that any national policy in this regard exists based on a safety newsletter which is quoting an article not even written by CAP.

[RADIOMAN015]

That safety bulletin published by National...

It's not a "safety bulletin" - it's the monthly newsletter.  To imply anything else imbues it with a level of urgency which does not exist.
COMMENT:  You are correct it is a newsletter (and not a bulletin), which in scheme of things would be considered informative and not directive in nature.  CAP does not issue safety bulletins and also seems to phased out Safety Alerts.    Likely, the National Safety Team believes that information given to CAP members via a newsletter will result in the appropriate "common sense" safety decisions being made. 

...says go to a safe place when thunder is heard, so that's what the ORM worksheet should state in EVERY ground field team deployment and aircraft launch.   

You're entitled to your opinion, and should feel free to submit your thoughts to NHQ, but don't imply that any national policy in this regard exists based on a safety newsletter which is quoting an article not even written by CAP.

COMMENT:  I would think that in any area of the country where thunderstorms commonly occur, IF there's a weather forecast indicating potential thunderstorms there would be an expectation of that included on the ORM worksheet (and as part of the AF oversight of CAP this could be audited even after the mission is completed).  The appropriate mission base staff could also monitor the weather in areas that ground teams are deployed to and/or aircraft are flying for appropriate safety instruction.  HOWEVER, ultimately it is the appropriate ground team leader or pilot in command that will make weather related decisions to keep their team/crew safe.

Interestingly about 30 minutes ago on my NOAA Alert Weather Radio, we had some severe TStorms passing in the area, and after the alert message as general information indicated "...remember if you hear thunder you could be struck by lightning so move to a safe location....".     That's good advice for everyone, why take a chance  
RM           

[Eclipse]

COMMENT:  I would think that in any area of the country where thunderstorms commonly occur, IF there's a weather forecast indicating potential thunderstorms there would be an expectation of that included on the ORM worksheet (and as part of the AF oversight of CAP this could be audited even after the mission is completed).

Then you would be incorrect from both the ORM perspective and CAP-USAF "auditing", whatever that is.

The appropriate mission base staff could also monitor the weather in areas that ground teams are deployed to and/or aircraft are flying for appropriate safety instruction.

"Could"?  Are you presuming that weather monitoring isn't a standard part of mission operations and that audible thunder will be the first indication
of impending storms?  People have weather radar on their coffee mugs these days.

The fact remains, despite your typing it in bold, that there is no specific policy in place by CAP that says when someone near you thinks they maybe heard a loud truck down the street, everyone huddles into the middle of the nearest building and dons non-conductive anti-lightning gear until
30 minutes after the last rumblings of the PSC who had day-old tacos for lunch.

Weather decisions are made based on common sense ORM, which includes the assessment of total risk vs. the possibility of completing the mission, not knee-jerk reactions to the sacred thunderbird.

[RADIOMAN015]

The appropriate mission base staff could also monitor the weather in areas that ground teams are deployed to and/or aircraft are flying for appropriate safety instruction.

"Could"?  Are you presuming that weather monitoring isn't a standard part of mission operations and that audible thunder will be the first indication
of impending storms?  People have weather radar on their coffee mugs these days.

The fact remains, despite your typing it in bold, that there is no specific policy in place by CAP that says when someone near you thinks they maybe heard a loud truck down the street, everyone huddles into the middle of the nearest building and dons non-conductive anti-lightning gear until
30 minutes after the last rumblings of the PSC who had day-old tacos for lunch.

Weather decisions are made based on common sense ORM, which includes the assessment of total risk vs. the possibility of completing the mission, not knee-jerk reactions to the sacred thunderbird.

Unfortunately with weather radar available to the consumer there's a delay in the update.
Locally the National Weather Service Radar, gets updated every 18 minutes.  Even the so called high tech aircraft weather NEXRAD has an NTSB Alert http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/safetyalerts/SA_017.pdf    states that updates are 15 to 20 minutes.

My experience is that "common sense" of CAP members varies greatly   Since safety is paramount in all CAP operations (per policy and every operations plan), there would be an expectation that one would always put safety first taking into consideration the limitations of radar data and the potential even for a "thunder bolt out of the blue" so to speak.  CAP Safety Newsletters are published to train personnel in safety related matters that CAP has deemed as important .    I would think that any pilot in command or any ground team leader would have the option of making the decision to return to a safe location, regardless of IF someone at mission base was telling them to press on since they are the ones on scene at a specific geographic location(s) that may be many miles away from mission base.     Same applies to any outdoor cadet/senior non ES CAP activities (with large numbers of attendees and the distance to safe facilities from where the activity is being held, has to be taken into consideration).

It seems common place for the Air Force to use the weather warning of lightning within five miles and this ceases all flight line maintenance activity (and even the BX gas station can't allow patrons to pump gas), BUT this somewhat short notice is because the resources are readily available to evacuate all flight line (and others outdoors)  personnel to a safe facility.    That criteria may not apply to CAP activities because resources may not be readily available to evacuate to a safe facility, so the smart people in charge are going to be much more conservative on stopping an activity sooner to allow timely evacuation.
RM                     

[Eclipse]

Well, thankfully the Awareness Week is over, so we don't have to worry about it again until next year.

Safety is not "first", it is "part" of the overall ORM involved in accomplishing the mission.  People who use "Safety" as if the world stops just because
risk increases miss the point entirely.

[RADIOMAN015]

Well, thankfully the Awareness Week is over, so we don't have to worry about it again until next year.

Safety is not "first", it is "part" of the overall ORM involved in accomplishing the mission.  People who use "Safety" as if the world stops just because
risk increases miss the point entirely.

I think that CAP safety newsletter says it all (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Jun_2012_Safety_Beacon_837DEB3256E12.pdf),
.... "If you hear thunder you are in danger.  Don't be fooled by blue skies.  If you hear thunder lightning is close enough to pose an immediate threat.....".


Regardless of any perceived authority of mission base or others.  Any CAP member can make a personal decision to withdraw and seek safe shelter if thunder is heard without any repercussions.  Just use that safety newsletter as your source :angel:   

BTW Just got off the phone with a guy I know that is an avid (25+ years experience) back country hiker/camper who recently got caught in a  pop up TStorm (that intensified and produced 3/4 inch hail) in the woods far away from any safe shelter.  He got off the top of the mountain, stayed away from big trees, water, etc. and set up a temporary poncho type tent.   He said it was scary, with some lightning strikes fairly close, but far enough away to not affect him.   He fortunately had a phone cell signal (no radio system access to amateur and/or CAP repeaters) and actually called his friend and gave his GPS coordinates and told him that if he didn't hear from him in about an hour to send help to that location.  The weather forecast did not indicate TStorm potential when he started his hike.   IF the forecast had indicated TStorms he would have cancelled his overnight hiking/camping trip and planned a different activity.     

RM     

[Eclipse]

Regardless of any perceived authority of mission base or others.  Any CAP member can make a personal decision to withdraw and seek safe shelter if thunder his heard without any repercussions.  Just use that safety newsletter as your source

"Perceived authority"?

You don't need to look any further than those two word to know why you're having local challenges in ES.

[RADIOMAN015]

Regardless of any perceived authority of mission base or others.  Any CAP member can make a personal decision to withdraw and seek safe shelter if thunder his heard without any repercussions.  Just use that safety newsletter as your source

"Perceived authority"?

You don't need to look any further than those two word to know why you're having local challenges in ES.

My experience has been that mission base will defer to the judgement of the deployed ground teams or air crew when a safety issue comes up that requires aborting their portion of the mission.    The teams/crews are well within their operational guidance to do this and surely will advise mission base.   In my wing I've never seen a safety issue come up with any ground team or air crew that caused an issue at mission base.   No one gets any extra points for taking any chances, especially with the unpredictability of where a lightning strike will occur once thunder is heard.   HOWEVER, you know that anyways -- This isn't the military and no one in CAP (e.g. mission base staff/IC) has any authority to put the member in harms way.
RM         

 
             

[Eclipse]

When you sign up for CAP, you agree to obey those placed in authority over you, whether that's the
day-to-day command chain, or the more direct ES chains.  If that is too much of a burden, either financially,
as you constantly allude, or from a personal risk management perspective, there are other fine organizations
with a much lower risk threshold that would be happy to make use of your services.

Deny that simple truth and you risk your membership, at a minimum, and financial security in the worst case.
Saying that a GBD or AOBD would defer to the assessment of the teams or crews in the field or air doesn't
make the authority of that mission base "perceived", it is 100% real, at least as far as anyone values their
association with CAP.

Put someone in harms way, or delay a search because you "know better", and things can get very "exciting"
for you financially as well.

Any member who feels their safety is in peril, or who is not comfortable with a given situation, can call a "knock it off",
that's part of the deal, but do it without good reason, and you will likely be invited to remedial training.  Do it often enough,
and ES won't be a part of your weekends.

[RADIOMAN015]

When you sign up for CAP, you agree to obey those placed in authority over you, whether that's the
day-to-day command chain, or the more direct ES chains.  If that is too much of a burden, either financially,
as you constantly allude, or from a personal risk management perspective, there are other fine organizations
with a much lower risk threshold that would be happy to make use of your services.

Deny that simple truth and you risk your membership, at a minimum, and financial security in the worst case.
Saying that a GBD or AOBD would defer to the assessment of the teams or crews in the field or air doesn't
make the authority of that mission base "perceived", it is 100% real, at least as far as anyone values their
association with CAP.

Put someone in harms way, or delay a search because you "know better", and things can get very "exciting"
for you financially as well.

Any member who feels their safety is in peril, or who is not comfortable with a given situation, can call a "knock it off",
that's part of the deal, but do it without good reason, and you will likely be invited to remedial training.  Do it often enough,
and ES won't be a part of your weekends.

Wow remedial training  .  Gee I didn't publish the lightning safety tips in the CAP safety newsletter just called attention to it.  Seems pretty clear to me what CAP's expectations are with lightning safety and individual member responsibility, regardless of others that feel they have ultimate authority over unpaid volunteers.    Your allusion that I or anyone else would just knock it off for no good reason at all is just your fantasy. 

Perhaps it's time to lock this thread.    I sincerely hope that no member(s) is/are struck and killed/serious injured by lightning.  Following the guidance in the newsletter hopefully will prevent any tragedy.
RM