CAP Talk

Here it is folks.  The OD version of the Army Combat Uniform (ACU) made just for CAP.

Give me a break, I didn't have time to sew everything on so I just placed it in it's spot.

Velco on the sleeve pockets for all the patch wearers out there.  Keep the flag and wing patch if you'd like.  I don't care.  But with this uniform, everyone, regardless of size, shape or abundancy of hair can look professional, military, and "as one".  Did I mention the functionality?

(http://captalk.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3896.0;attach=1460)

I kinda like it.  It is sure distinctive.  They won't mistake us for a right-wing militia, cops, or state convicts on a road gang (who also are carted about in 15-pax white vans, by the way).

I'd still vote to lose all the extra patches, though.  Name, rank, GT/Aircrew badge, flag. That's all.  What wing I am assigned to is nobody's business.  OPSEC, you know.

You can't see them in the picture, but towards the cuff of the left sleeve, there are a couple pen-pockets.  

The nametapes and rank could be velcroed on but I don't see a need for it.  If we did that, we could pin our badges on like the Army and Marine Corps, but personally, I'm not a fan of that.  If I were to propose the uniform and it would actually be taken into consideration, I'd vote for sewing nametapes and badges on.  Patches be velcroed.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 29, 2007, 03:29:10 PM
I kinda like it.  It is sure distinctive.  They won't mistake us for a right-wing militia, cops, or state convicts on a road gang (who also are carted about in 15-pax white vans, by the way).

I'd still vote to lose all the extra patches, though.  Name, rank, GT/Aircrew badge, flag. That's all.  What wing I am assigned to is nobody's business.  OPSEC, you know.

Yeah, anyone that knows me knows that I am not a fan of patches.  But I'm willing to bow out of my fight in the hopes to go with a uniform of this sort.  See, the uniform is already in production so it's not like we'd have to design a new one and it comes with velcro.  I think it would look even more odd with all the velcro but no patch on either sleeve. 

Seriously, I'd go without patches, but I think I'd lose that fight.

The concept is good, but my only comment would be to follow the CAP regulation when the OD fatiges was used by CAP. Namely rank on the collor rather than the army style. USAF wears the rank insignia on the collar with the ABU, so CAP probably should follow. Historically CAP has always worn rank on the collar (or NCO rank on the sleeves) of the work uniforms.

Kirt, Hey this I like. We should be different from all the others.

But my question is would us overweight members be able to wear this.

Quote from: BillB on December 29, 2007, 03:38:13 PM
The concept is good, but my only comment would be to follow the CAP regulation when the OD gatiges was used by CAP. Namely rank on the collor rather than the army style. USAF wears the rank insignia on the collar with the ABU, so CAP probably should follow. Historically CAP has always worn rank on the collar (or NCO rank on the sleeves) of the work uniforms.

The collar folds up and velcros closed for field conditions.  There is no place to really put the rank on the collar.  It's a functional uniform more than a window dressing.  I understand there is a lot of heartache in the Army because of the rank on the collar with branch insignia, but unless they re-design the collar, rank wouldn't really fit.  The entire uniform shows zero resemblence to the Air Force, except for maybe it's heritage of white on blue nametags, so why stop there?

I see your point, and I'd prefer the uniform have a different collar as well, but to be honest, I like the idea of the "work" or "utility" uniform being more functional than form.

Quote from: RobG on December 29, 2007, 03:41:52 PM
Kirt, Hey this I like. We should be different from all the others.

But my question is would us overweight members be able to wear this.

Yes.  This would be a CAP-distinctive utility UNIFORM.  Being that it would be "CAP Distinctive", everyone would be able to wear it.  Just like the BBDU.  But instead of 2 utility uniforms, we'd just have 1.

Quote from: Stonewall on December 29, 2007, 03:23:59 PMBut with this uniform, everyone, regardless of size, shape or abundancy of hair can look professional, military, and "as one". 

The collar of the ACU is too small to support the addition of rank, and when buttoned to the top (in cold weather or in a NBC environment) the collar is worn turned up.

I am still getting used to looking at center chest to find someone's rank.  And I still would like Army officer guys to  be able to wear their branch.  I might someday find it important to know if I am speaking with the Chaplain or the Provost Marshall.  Also, if I am speaking to an artillery officer, I will know to talk louder.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 29, 2007, 03:44:31 PMI am still getting used to looking at center chest to find someone's rank.  And I still would like Army officer guys to  be able to wear their branch.  I might someday find it important to know if I am speaking with the Chaplain or the Provost Marshall.  

There's always rank on the individuals hat, beret or helmet.  Chaplains have the cross (or whatever it's called) on their hat.  Pilots will tell you they're a pilot so there's no problem there  ;D

 I kinda like this.

I like it.  The only differences I'd like to see are:

1.  No flags - that's Army and I can't stand backwards flags (I know that's another topic)

2.  No unit or "look at me" patches".

3.  Take "CAP" off the rank.  It's redundant - it's right next to the big CIVIL AIR PATROL.

Let's keep it simple.  Less is more.

I'd personally like to see us go back to the old jungles - they were the most comfortable uniform (and best looking) that I"ve ever seen.

GC

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 29, 2007, 03:44:31 PM
Also, if I am speaking to an artillery officer, I will know to talk louder.

:D :D :D

Quote from: Gunner C on December 29, 2007, 03:50:05 PM
3.  Take "CAP" off the rank.  It's redundant - it's right next to the big CIVIL AIR PATROL.

Let's keep it simple.  Less is more.

Already mentioned my opinion on the flags and patches.

As for the "CAP", I'd be all for just throwing CAP rank on there as well.  I just grabbed my Goretex rank tab and threw it on real quick.

+1 on the OD jungles.

Quote from: Gunner C on December 29, 2007, 03:51:17 PM

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 29, 2007, 03:44:31 PM
Also, if I am speaking to an artillery officer, I will know to talk louder.

:D :D :D

Don't laugh (it's okay, I laugh too), but my dad-in-law is a retired Airborne Artillery Lt Col.  He's got the hearing aids and knee replacements to show for it too.

I like it.  Is that a glint tape flag UK, looks like it.   IIRC they also make the uniform in navy blue and woodland camo, but I like the ODs.

Quote from: MIKE on December 29, 2007, 04:02:14 PM
I like it.  Is that a glint tape flag UK, looks like it.   IIRC they also make the uniform in navy blue and woodland camo, but I like the ODs.

Yep, that's an IR flag.  Only reverse flag I have with velcro on it at the time.  Like I said, I threw everything together this morning.  If I get bored, I may sew it all up just for good measure, to inlcude an embroidered flag.

They make the TRU (by TruSpec) in all sorts of colors, to include khaki, blue, OD, woodland and ARPAT.

Added the poll to this topic and removed the other one.

I like the uniform, but I still have reservations about ditching the AF-style utility uniform for TRUs across the board.  I still would like to see ABUs with white on blue insignia.

keep bdus/bbbdus and then transition to ABU when available. 

While yes, I would absolutely love to have my proposed TRU for CAP, my true desire is to have ONE uniform for EVERYONE to wear.  I can't stand having 2 different uniforms for those who meet the regs and those who don't.  And Blue BDUs just don't do it for me as a "military" uniform.

To me, it's discriminatory towards the guys with a some extra poundage and fuzzies.

I like the idea of velcro.  Simply sell the uniform with the velcro already in the right places and, voila, pages of improper patch placement violations prevented and, corrected, on the spot.

At the Conference in Atlanta, it was said that "ALL CAP is BASICALLY LOCAL," so I would keep the option for a unit patch.  I would also keep the flag to bring home the idea that we, while not military, are in the service of the Nation. 

Generally, I like your idea Stonewall.

Quote from: Major Carrales on December 29, 2007, 06:32:52 PMSimply sell the uniform with the velcro already in the right places and, voila, pages of improper patch placement violations prevented and, corrected, on the spot.

Yes, it comes with velcro already in place so that wouldn't be an issue.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 29, 2007, 03:44:31 PM
I am still getting used to looking at center chest to find someone's rank.  And I still would like Army officer guys to  be able to wear their branch.  I might someday find it important to know if I am speaking with the Chaplain or the Provost Marshall.  Also, if I am speaking to an artillery officer, I will know to talk louder.

What did you say.....repeat, over!   ;D

So we should get a petition going around to return branch insignia!  I hate the fact I have no idea what the LT does that I am speaking to.  Before it was easy to spot fakes talking about "deployments to Afghanistan when they were wearing finance B I.  Now I don't know if the person is a Physician leading a battalion up a hill or a lawyer  in charge of transportation.  All too confusing (JK)

SO is this officially the KBU?  Kirt Bowden Uniform!  I hope it catches on, it would streamline much!  My vote is YES. 

Is this like when Patton designed his own uniforms back in the 1930's for tankers?  Perhaps one day we will see this in the Bowden Museum. 

Now.....to get it proposed to the uniform committee.

As I said, generally I like it.  If we were to, instead of transistioning to the ABU...go to this that could be the one place where everyone would dress in a uniform manner.

What I mean by that phrase, is that if there was ever a time to do this, during this transition would be the best time.  A sort of "time window" thing.  Place a 3 year phase out on the BBU uniform and, in time, it would catch on.  As people replace their BBU and BDUs, this could be the option that works best.

I've posted my ideas on GrayBDU/ABU's, so I won't repeat them here.

I'd go along with it, but I'd like to avoid going all "Army-esqe" like this.

Quote from: ddelaney103 on December 29, 2007, 07:48:29 PM
I've posted my ideas on GrayBDU/ABU's, so I won't repeat them here.

I'd go along with it, but I'd like to avoid going all "Army-esqe" like this.

I hear ya clickin' big chicken.  But until the AF allows all the fat/fuzzies in the BDU or ABU same as everyone else, it just ticks me off that we have 2 different uniforms.  I posted my thoughts in your Gray BDU thread and I'd rather do that than ABUs.  And no offense, but I like my idea better  ;D

If you think about it, before the Army got ACUs, we were more "army-esque" than my proposed KBU above.  But I gotcha.

I'd go along with jut about anything that gets all of us in the same uniform.  Well almost, I wouldn't willingly wear the Hot Dog on a Stick uniform...   :D

Quote from: Stonewall on December 29, 2007, 03:42:40 PM

Quote from: BillB on December 29, 2007, 03:38:13 PM

 The entire uniform shows zero resemblence to the Air Force, except for maybe it's heritage of white on blue nametags, so why stop there?

This statement bothers me.......because our heritage IS with the Air Force. They are our parent service.

Quote from: Smokey on December 29, 2007, 10:30:51 PM

Quote from: Stonewall on December 29, 2007, 03:42:40 PM

Quote from: BillB on December 29, 2007, 03:38:13 PM

 The entire uniform shows zero resemblance to the Air Force, except for maybe it's heritage of white on blue nametags, so why stop there?

This statement bothers me.......because our heritage IS with the Air Force. They are our parent service.

And how does the Blue BDU demonstrate our heritage to the US Air Force?  It doesn't.  In fact, I'd venture to say that the KBU is closer to being AF heritage than the BBDUs as it's green and the Army wears the same design and the AF came from the Air Force.  Where did the BBDUs come from?  Not the AF.  Again, my main goal in suggesting such a uniform is so every member of CAP can wear the same uniform instead of discriminate against a guy for being overweight or having facial hair.

By forcing everyone into a non-AF style uniform you are discriminating against those who do meet AF standards in favor of those who choose not too. 

Quote from: RiverAux on December 29, 2007, 11:06:16 PM
By forcing everyone into a non-AF style uniform you are discriminating against those who do meet AF standards in favor of those who choose not too. 

Not going to get into a legal battle of what is or isn't discrimination, but I think you'd be hard pressed to discriminate against someone who met the standards.

Quote from: RiverAux on December 29, 2007, 11:06:16 PM
By forcing everyone into a non-AF style uniform you are discriminating against those who do meet AF standards in favor of those who choose not too. 

Well BDU's are no longer an AF uniform.  In fact, if memory serves BDU's are owned by the Army.  

I have two questions, sir. Would the cadet grade be made on those little squares, as well? Also, wouldn't the squares be better as velcro, so as to save money when one is promoted?

Quote from: Stonewall on December 29, 2007, 11:08:20 PM

Quote from: RiverAux on December 29, 2007, 11:06:16 PM
By forcing everyone into a non-AF style uniform you are discriminating against those who do meet AF standards in favor of those who choose not too. 

Not going to get into a legal battle of what is or isn't discrimination, but I think you'd be hard pressed to discriminate against someone who met the standards.

You're the one who brought up "discrimination".  In effect you want to punish people who meet the standards in favor of those who can't or won't do so. 

It's a nice looking uniform proposal.  I'd vote in favor of keeping everything on Velcro for the simple fact that you only need to keep one set of everything that goes on your uniform.   And I think the badges pinned on wouldn't be too bad.  A good way to stick it to Vanguard! lol. But I do have a problem with the underlying issue.

Why are we focusing on creating a new uniform that would be wearable by those who do not meet standards.  Shouldn't we go the other direction and create a program that creates a healthier force with the majority of members meeting military (or CAP) standards?  Let's face it.  CAP as an organization has a serious problem with overweight and out of shape members.  You can make the argument all day long that you don't have to be in perfect physical shape to contribute to the mission.  But the fact remains, we don't get the respect from our parent organization because we don't act like we deserve it.  No wonder USAF doesn't want us in a uniform that closely resembles theirs.  We usually look like a joke.

We should spend more of our time focusing on acting and looking like auxillary members of the USAF.  I am a firm believer that we should have a PT program for officers and that there should be ONE utility and ONE dress uniform for all members.  If you don't meet standards, go on a diet and get on a treadmill or you don't wear the uniform.  Let's stop trying to find the lowest common denominator and set a higher standard.  The ACA has consistently high standards and they are allowed to wear the same uniform as their parent organization with subdued markings even!  We could learn a lot from them.

But I know I am in the minority on this issue.

Quote from: RiverAux on December 30, 2007, 12:31:42 AM

Quote from: Stonewall on December 29, 2007, 11:08:20 PM

Quote from: RiverAux on December 29, 2007, 11:06:16 PM
By forcing everyone into a non-AF style uniform you are discriminating against those who do meet AF standards in favor of those who choose not too. 

Not going to get into a legal battle of what is or isn't discrimination, but I think you'd be hard pressed to discriminate against someone who met the standards.

You're the one who brought up "discrimination".  In effect you want to punish people who meet the standards in favor of those who can't or won't do so. 

I talked about discriminating against folks who are overweight.  Fact is, it wouldn't be discrimination at all if everyone wore the same uniform, aka had the same standard.

I question the cost factor to cadets on the OD uniform. Currently BDUs are available in some areas from USAF sources, such as AFROTC. The BDU phase out date for USAF is two or three years away. So the cost of the OD uniform for cadets can be a major problem for many cadets. (two sets of BDUs are required for many cadet activities)

I agree somewhat with WinterG.  We do need to work on our weight issue (even though I am within standards----this Christmas season has extended my girth). While there are some that due to physical disabilities/issues have weight as an issue, the truth is.....some are just fat 'cause they eat too much and exercise to little.

A healthier weight would do us all good. Even though I fall into the AF standards, I know I could stand to loose ---well plain and simple---FAT.  I've got my home commander pointing out that I have slipped up recently and I appreciate it.

Let's face it folks....many of us really could stand to shed some pounds. So...for the sake of CAP and yourselfs....now is the time to get to work on improving our physical stature. 

Ask yourself.....Am I fit to perform??

As far as rank on velcro, NewWaveKiller, I think that's a valid point.  For cadets, it would be better to use velcro as promotions occur a heckuva lot more often than seniors.  Good point.

As for the weight issue, yes, I am fit to fight.  I carry an AF CAC card and do just fine on the AF PT test and weight standards.  But remember when CAP was formed in 1941?  It was way for those who were too young, too old, or otherwise not fit to fight to do their part for the war machine.  I think that still holds true today.  Does it give anyone a good reason to just blow off physical fitness?  Absolutely not.  If the only thing keeping you from fitting in the AF uniform is your eating and fitness habits, then there is little reason other than personal choice.  Being a new father, I can appreciate time constraints.  In fact, jobs may limit you.  As a detail leader on a personal protection team, a career that requires you to stay in shape, I struggled to manage my weight and fitness level.  I was always traveling, eating in hotels, getting messed up from time changes and limited in what and when I could eat.  Not to mention, it wasn't exactly cool to go for a jog in East Timor after dark.

Truth is, we can argue all day long about fitness standards in our all volunteer program, or we can face the fact that many of our members will resemble the average American.  By 2015 75% of the US population will be classified as obese. 

Cost is and always will be an issue for many CAP members, not just cadets.  But in my time, I've seen very few cadets have trouble buying a PSP, laptop, VHF radio, $200 Goretex boots, berets, and a number of things they truly could do without.  There will always be those few cadets.  But trust me, if CAP organized it right, the KBU could cost a lot less than the ABU.

Believe me, folks, I want everyone to be healthy and within weight requirements, but I'm a realist.  Not that I always choose the right fights, but this is one fight that I will look for other alternatives.  My guess is we'd lose 20,000 members if we mandated strict weight standards that said if you can't meet the requirement, you can't be in CAP.  Sad but true.

Another thing, this is just my idea, this whole KBU.  Just some wishful thinking, just like a lot of things thrown up on these discussion boards.  The only thing remotely close to having any real affect on NHQ's decision on uniforms is Lt Col White's NHQ Uniform discussion.  In reality, I know that my idea is just that, an idea.  Something that will never become a reality, let alone an option.  So all those not in favor, relax, nothing will change.  We'll end up having ABUs and in 4 years we'll be discussing all the negatives to go along with them.

Quote from: winterg on December 30, 2007, 12:52:02 AMWhy are we focusing on creating a new uniform that would be wearable by those who do not meet standards.  Shouldn't we go the other direction and create a program that creates a healthier force with the majority of members meeting military (or CAP) standards? 

Sure we can....are we (as in CAP in general) ready to loose 50% of our members?

That is my unscientific WAG as how many people won't or can't comply with USAF standards.

Quote from: winterg on December 30, 2007, 12:52:02 AMLet's face it.  CAP as an organization has a serious problem with overweight and out of shape members.

Quote from: winterg on December 30, 2007, 12:52:02 AMYou can make the argument all day long that you don't have to be in perfect physical shape to contribute to the mission.  But the fact remains, we don't get the respect from our parent organization because we don't act like we deserve it.  No wonder USAF doesn't want us in a uniform that closely resembles theirs.  We usually look like a joke.

I do the job whether I get "respect" or not. 

Quote from: winterg on December 30, 2007, 12:52:02 AMWe should spend more of our time focusing on acting and looking like auxiliary members of the USAF.  I am a firm believer that we should have a PT program for officers and that there should be ONE utility and ONE dress uniform for all members.  If you don't meet standards, go on a diet and get on a treadmill or you don't wear the uniform.  Let's stop trying to find the lowest common denominator and set a higher standard.  The ACA has consistently high standards and they are allowed to wear the same uniform as their parent organization with subdued markings even!  We could learn a lot from them.

It's because the ACA did not ask permission (they did not have to)....as with us....by my read of the law....(and I am not a lawer)...the USAF veto on CAP/USAF style uniforms....is a myth.  It's not in any of our regulations, by laws, or any thing......and it is not in any USAF regulation. 

We could right now legally get all CAP members into USAF style uniforms with the simple addition of a patch on the left IIRC shoulder of all uniforms.

Legally the USAF could not stop us...but we would have to deal with the fall out out of pissing them off.

Quote from: RiverAux on December 30, 2007, 12:31:42 AM

Quote from: Stonewall on December 29, 2007, 11:08:20 PM

Quote from: RiverAux on December 29, 2007, 11:06:16 PM
By forcing everyone into a non-AF style uniform you are discriminating against those who do meet AF standards in favor of those who choose not too. 

Not going to get into a legal battle of what is or isn't discrimination, but I think you'd be hard pressed to discriminate against someone who met the standards.

You're the one who brought up "discrimination".  In effect you want to punish people who meet the standards in favor of those who can't or won't do so. 

Errr...what?  You're wrong.  Move on. You apparently don't understand the definition of discrimination

"We should spend more of our time focusing on acting and looking like auxiliary members of the USAF.  I am a firm believer that we should have a PT program for officers and that there should be ONE utility and ONE dress uniform for all members.  If you don't meet standards, go on a diet and get on a treadmill or you don't wear the uniform.   Let's stop trying to find the lowest common denominator and set a higher standard.  The ACA has consistently high standards and they are allowed to wear the same uniform as their parent organization with subdued markings even!  We could learn a lot from them."

I've been reading these comments.  The higher standards of training and physical fitness sound great and I'm sure it's all well intended.  But, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think anybody has thought about our friends who are handicapped and in wheel chairs.  Do we say, "Sorry, but you're too old, or, you can't participate due to your handicap.  You'll have to leave CAP."

I'm not trying to be a pain in the ---.  I just don't remember seeing a reference for our handicapped members.

Quote from: Grumpy on December 30, 2007, 07:23:02 PM
I'm not trying to be a pain in the ---.  I just don't remember seeing a reference for our handicapped members.

This is why I mentioned this in response to these types of posts...

Quote from: Stonewall on December 30, 2007, 01:33:11 AMBut remember when CAP was formed in 1941?  It was way for those who were too young, too old, or otherwise not fit to fight to do their part for the war machine.  I think that still holds true today.

Thank you, sir.

I'll go back to sleep now.   ;)

(I am breaking my new years resolution not to post in uniform topics.... oh wait, I still have time before the new year)

From what I can see, you are basically taking a non-digitized version of the Army ACU and applying CAP-distinctive patches and nametapes.

This is the best uniform idea I have seen in ages. I wear ACU's every day, and I can tell you they are hands down more comfortable and functional than BDU's, or any uniform cut like BDU's.

I can only assume the following ACU-like concepts go with this uniform:

• No Ironing
• No Starching (probably the STUPIDIST thing we ever did to a field uniform, in retrospect. I was assimilated into this collective when I was an ROTC cadet, and see now [along with others] what a tremendous waste of resources this was)
• No Dry Cleaning
• Suede boots you don't shine

Thank you for putting forward something useful in the uniform department for a change. Its functional yet professional in appearence, comfortable, and distinctive to CAP without forgetting the military affliation.

For those who feel compelled to ditch AF uniforms (horrible idea, but I'll play along for this thread), why not just  adopt the BDU as our corporate uniform after it is finally dropped by the AF (and is therefore no longer an AF uniform)?   At least it maintains our connection to the AF by using one of their old uniforms. 

This has the added advantage of the fact that many of our members already have this uniform and won't have to buy anything new. 

(yes, this is a modification of one of my own proposals to use the BDU as our corporate uniform after CAP gets approval for ABUs for our AF-style uniform). 

^^^Two things.  Maybe three.

1.  Again, unlike your proposal (kudos for stepping up, BTW), my proposal is for one uniform for all.  Not ABUs for the athletes and BDUs for the fat and fuzzy.  But as you detracted from your own proposal, suggesting that we keep BDUs as the one and only utility uniform, I'd be for that.  But since we'd be in a transition stage anyway, let's just start from scratch with a very functional uniform.  Wearing BDUs and a version of ACUs, I admit that the ACU set-up is 10x more functional, comfortable and user-friendly than any pattern on a set of BDUs.

2.  We've already ditched the AF uniform in the form of a blue flight suit and Blue BDUs.  Not to mention the TPU.  Which, by the way, with a few modifications I'd be okay with if we could all be in the same service uniform.

3.  I don't feel compelled to ditch the AF uniforms.  I feel compelled to be in one uniform for all members.  If tomorrow the AF or whoever is in charge said "everyone, regardless of weight and grooming, can wear the AF uniform".  I'd throw out my idea in a second.

Uh, for the purposes of this thread I meant that EVERYONE should wear the BDUs once they are no longer AF-style uniforms.  No ABUs. 

QuoteWe've already ditched the AF uniform in the form of a blue flight suit and Blue BDUs.

No, a tiny minority of members have done so.  Most are still wearing BDUs. 

I don't think that adopting a completely different uniform is the answer at all.

First, in my experience, the majority of cadets I know get their uniforms from local surplus stores. I've never actually purchased a uniform item from Vanguard (stocked up on my branch  and name tapes back when it was still CAPMart), and the only thing I ever ordered from the Hock was a service jacket. My uniforms were paid for in cash at surplus stores, or through other sources. So having a uniform that's no gonna be 'off the rack' is a no no. I can get blue flight suits, utility suits,  flight jackets, M65s, and gortex jackets at my local surplus place.

Second, the ACU is an Army uniform. It was designed by the Army, for the Army, and the US Army is the only one in the world, for all intents and purposes, wearing it. So even through it's not the same pattern as the ACU, this uniform is the same cut. Is this really any better then having fat n fuzzies in BDUs?

There's nothing wrong with our current system. Right now, I'm within the H and W standards for the BDUs, but I still wear the blue version for a number of reasons. If/When the ABU comes out, we'll see.

Quote from: JThemann on December 31, 2007, 02:02:03 AM
Second, the ACU is an Army uniform. It was designed by the Army, for the Army, and the US Army is the only one in the world, for all intents and purposes, wearing it. So even through it's not the same pattern as the ACU, this uniform is the same cut. Is this really any better then having fat n fuzzies in BDUs?

I dunno, even though I wear ACUs part of the time, the first thought I had upon seeing Stonewall's photo was "Whoa, where'd he get a set of Satin 300s?" (Satin 300s were the French Foreign Legion's combat uniform in the 1970s.  They were an OD two-piece uniform with zippered pockets and usually tightly tailored)

If its in digital camo, then its Army ACUs. Otherwise, its a green uniform with clever pockets and a funny collar.

Quote from: NIN on December 31, 2007, 01:53:16 PM

Quote from: JThemann on December 31, 2007, 02:02:03 AM
Second, the ACU is an Army uniform. It was designed by the Army, for the Army, and the US Army is the only one in the world, for all intents and purposes, wearing it. So even through it's not the same pattern as the ACU, this uniform is the same cut. Is this really any better then having fat n fuzzies in BDUs?

I dunno, even though I wear ACUs part of the time, the first thought I had upon seeing Stonewall's photo was "Whoa, where'd he get a set of Satin 300s?" (Satin 300s were the French Foreign Legion's combat uniform in the 1970s.  They were an OD two-piece uniform with zippered pockets and usually tightly tailored)

If its in digital camo, then its Army ACUs. Otherwise, its a green uniform with clever pockets and a funny collar.

Well, look at it this way. BDU's are a specific uniform, right? We refer to them as BDU's no matter what pattern they are.

I just don't think that going completely different is the answer. I'd prefer to see ABU's, then a uniform with a different color but the same cut.

Like a lot of folks, I'm torn on Stonewall's uniform proposal.

As I see it here are....
The Positives:  I would wear it.  I think its great that everyone could look uniform in a uniform.  It would look appropriate next to RM folks in ABUs, ACUs, flightsuits, etc.  Its a big improvement over BBDUs and more functional and easier to maintain than BDUs.

We could keep black leather combat boots and save some serious cash over the sage suede ones for the ABU (have you seen the price of those boots  :o).

I don't think the AF would have any problem with it.  Its totally distinctive and professional.

The Negatives:  Its not an AF uniform and possibly a "slippery slope" to the AF saying - "you have this, you don't need AF uniforms."

One compromise would be to put cadets in the ABU and all seniors in something like Stonewall proposal.

Kirt - thanks for putting your KBU together.  Possible solutions are always better threads than those rehashing problems...

I would wear it...and I am within the AF H&W regulations (not to mention grooming!!).  Would this be the uniform to replace ALL other uniforms?  Including service class uniforms?

I would second the motion to keep cadets in AF style uniforms.

I just like the nifty pockets   :)

The ABU in OD green reminds me of the old Army MOPP gear.....

Quote from: O-Rex on December 31, 2007, 06:05:40 PM
The ABU in OD green reminds me of the old Army MOPP gear.....

I was wondering what that was reminding me of, but I couldn't place it.

Quote from: JThemann on December 31, 2007, 02:31:40 PM
Well, look at it this way. BDU's are a specific uniform, right? We refer to them as BDU's no matter what pattern they are.

I just don't think that going completely different is the answer. I'd prefer to see ABU's, then a uniform with a different color but the same cut.

BDUs as a term has become as ubiquitous as "Kleenex".  BDUs of other colors are generally given a modifier (ie. "Blue BDUs") versus "cammies" (same as "woodland BDUs" in Marine-speak) or CUUs (Navy for BDU).

I could call 'em "OD ACUs" and still be *close*. :)

BTW, this was the best short-term Satin 300 image I could find:

(http://www.diggerhistory3.info/combat/images/029.jpg)

Quote from: BillB on December 29, 2007, 03:38:13 PM
The concept is good, but my only comment would be to follow the CAP regulation when the OD fatiges was used by CAP. Namely rank on the collor rather than the army style. USAF wears the rank insignia on the collar with the ABU, so CAP probably should follow. Historically CAP has always worn rank on the collar (or NCO rank on the sleeves) of the work uniforms.

FYI
When the AF wears the ACU, we wear the rank right there per Army regs

Assuming the components of the KBU could be obtained easily and without an increase in price over camo BDUs, I would happily wear what Kirt has laid out. There have been a lot of folks saying "yeah its great, BUT..." but there really dont seem to be any practical objections to it, ie it would be hard to get, it would be more expensive, the fabric or cut is impractical, etc. In the short time I I have been around there have been countless uniform proposals and this seems the most practical of them all. If we could get the minority to let go of the "I dont want to see fat and fuzzies in the same uniform as me, they must wear something else" mentality, I think it makes an ideal all for one uniform. There is NO reason that we need to wear camo whatsoever, in fact as has been pointed out at great length before, camo can hinder certain ground team activities, namely SAR. The uniform is (more or less) the same color as the flight suit, the same cut as the ABUs. I cant tell if its the new Tru-Spec TDU or not (Kirt help me out here) but if its not, the TDU would be an excellent source for this look. Ive worn them, have a pair in khaki and theyre great. As I say, if we can let go of the things that there is no practical reason for, this is the uniform to go with. I dont see any valid reason why not.

I say:

1. KBUs
2. AF style service dress with blue pants and white shirt
3. Green nomex as appropriate
4. Everyone wears the same "mess dress"

we eliminate all the different name tags and plates, trim down the regs that say this can be worn with this uniform but not that one and bingo, bango, bongo! uniforms drop off the radar as it were as number 1 on the hit parade of CAP discussions. Certainly if the USCGAUX can do it, so can CAP.

Me likes it

Quote from: NIN on December 31, 2007, 08:48:05 PM

BTW, this was the best short-term Satin 300 image I could find:

Nice illustration of a French Foreign Legionnaire, circa 1970's. . . .

B/T/W, ABU's didn't look bad on the "Ironman" movie trailer.

Quote from: O-Rex on January 02, 2008, 10:13:00 PMB/T/W, ABU's didn't look bad on the "Ironman" movie trailer.

I don't think ABUs look bad at all.  In fact, I think they look pretty good.  However, their design is no different than BDUs and I like BDUs too.  One day, when we start our transition into ABUs, we will, once again, have 2 separate uniforms segregating our force because some won't be allowed to wear the ABUs due to their weight or facial hair.  Additionally, ABUs are more form than function, in my opinion.  They were designed for the arm-chair warrior, not the guy on the ground, in the bush, on the sand, or looking for a lost child in the swamplands of Florida.  YMMV.

Quote from: SARMedTech on January 02, 2008, 11:02:28 AMI say:

1. KBUs
2. AF style service dress with blue pants and white shirt
3. Green nomex as appropriate
4. Everyone wears the same "mess dress"

+1

I like it as well...minus the strange rank insignia, which seems to have already been discussed.

Quote from: Stonewall on January 02, 2008, 11:09:08 PM
They were designed for the arm-chair warrior, not the guy on the ground, in the bush, on the sand, or looking for a lost child in the swamplands of Florida.  YMMV.

You hit that straight on!  They took BDU's and modified them in color and washability. 

I would take ACU's or MARPAT's over ABU's anyday!  The AF should have just stuck with BDU's but added the wash and wear feature to them. 

In fact, I would take the KBU's over ABU's easily.   

Quote
KBU:  28 (50.9%)
Keep BDUs & BBDUs:  11 (20%)
Hold out for ABUs:  15 (27.3%)
Tell us your idea:  1 (1.8%)

Well, after 55 votes, those are the results.  Not going to close the poll, in case anyone else wants to cast their vote.

I emailed several other CAPers, some with 30+ years experience in CAP, both in CP and ES, and they too agree that it would be a good looking uniform for everyone to wear as well as it's practical application to emergency services.  Of course, my circle of friends in CAP, past and present, are mostly like-minded so my email survey to them was a bit biased.  YMMV.

Even with the 3 other options added together, the KBU still beat them out.  Interesting.  I wonder how people across CAP in general would respond to this poll.  We'll never know....

I must say, I'm surprised by the poll - you'd think everyone would want to stay USAF.

You didn't have an option for "just BBDUs."  I wonder if that would have scored as highly.  Or do folks prefer a more warrior color, perhaps?  Or is there some other reason?

BTW, here is an image of the KBU pants, but in khaki.  It's easier to see the features in the khaki than in OD.

(http://images.afmo.com/products/201/00/22/201-00223-2.jpg)

Quote from: Dragoon on January 04, 2008, 03:31:17 PM
I must say, I'm surprised by the poll - you'd think everyone would want to stay USAF.

You didn't have an option for "just BBDUs."  I wonder if that would have scored as highly.  Or do folks prefer a more warrior color, perhaps?  Or is there some other reason?

Meh, if I would have thought of it I would have put a "BBDU only" option, but not enough people would come back and change their vote to make it a realistic count.

I would never vote for BBDUs only.  I would love for us to all be in ABUs when they trickle down, but the uniform itself is not comfortable or practical for field work.  It's extremely heavy and is identical to BDUs as far as function, except for the pen inserts in the arm.  By heavy, I mean, I was shocked when I tried it on at my unit.  First thing I thought of was wearing body armor and equipment totalling like 50 lbs in 130 temps in the sand.  Everyone I know that has a job bringing them to the field cuts out the "map pocket" that adds to the thickness of the blouse.

I don't think BBDUs look awful, I just don't think they're the right answer for CAP.  Dan Delaney had an excellent idea in another thread that, instead of BBDUs, make a greenish/grayish uniform that would match closer to the ABU color scheme.  I'd be for all of us to wear that before an all BBDU CAP force.  YMMV.

I think the idea of grey ABUS makes sense if the goal is two uniforms - after all, making the corporate match the USAF as closely as possible is a very good thing in my book.

But if the intent is to put EVERYONE into a single utility suit, then it seems we should pick the color that works best for us.  I'm not sure that's dark blue, but I'm also not sure it's OD.  Unless we feel that looking more like field soldiers is a good recruiting tool for the senior ranks.

Quote from: Dragoon on January 04, 2008, 04:39:03 PMI'm not sure that's dark blue, but I'm also not sure it's OD.  Unless we feel that looking more like field soldiers is a good recruiting tool for the senior ranks.

Well, BDUs do that moreso than a solid OD color.  So in my opinion, the solid OD would lessen the "field soldier" look.  But BBDUs looks too unlike a military uniform.  And yes, I think a good looking military uniform does draw in members, seniors and cadets alike.

OD reminds me of he who's name shall not be spoken (No, not him, the other one).

Quote from: Stonewall on December 29, 2007, 06:21:43 PMTo me, it's discriminatory towards the guys with a some extra poundage and fuzzies.

Hey, I resemble that remark. While some of my cadets are trying to get me to shave, I currently have no utility uniform because I haven't bought BBDUs since I grew the beard. My BDUs hang in the closet if I do shave. I'm not big fan of OD, though it does look more military than BBDU. And I also promote the "less is more" idea with the exception of the flag. Keep that one patch.

For those interested in holding out for the ABU, here is an Air Force authorized seller of the ABU and it's accoutraments.

FYI...no more buying cheap knock-off boots like the $25 Korean jungle boots or surplus leather boots.   The only boot required with the ABU is the sage green ones and the cheapest are the hot weather set at $114.  For you folks up north, look at spending about $150, just for boots.

http://65.108.202.216/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=1-AFABU

(http://65.108.202.216/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/USAF-600f.png)

^ I will hold out until they start making their way to the base thrift shop or the airmans attic.  Then pick a pair up and throw some Dr Scholls odor eaters in them and we are good to go!

Some more info on the KBU (TRU) uniform

Cost for each, top and bottom is $39.99.  If Scamguard Vanguard got a contract with Tru-Spec, we could ultimately knock off as much as 20% of the price.  Keep in mind, that a complete set of ABUs is a few bucks more than the the KBU set up, not including the $100+ boots.

(http://www.actiongear.com/agcatalog/picsxl/AG_TRU12_L_3.jpg)
Click for larger image  (http://www.actiongear.com/agcatalog/picsxl/AG_TRU12_L_3.jpg)

(http://www.actiongear.com/agcatalog/picsxl/AG_TRU11_L_3.jpg)
Click for larger image  (http://www.actiongear.com/agcatalog/picsxl/AG_TRU11_L_3.jpg)

Look, it even looks good tucked in...not that I'm advocating that.

(http://www.actiongear.com/agcatalog/picsxl/AG_TRU12_L_2.jpg)

This is the best idea I have seen yet concerning the phase out of the BDU...and if the Tru-Spec/Vanguard alliance was as easily accomplished as suggested it may even be possible to have them made available in a Nomex variant.  Can you imagine? One uniform comes in and take the place of two...and even possibly three if you have a nomex one? 

This just makes good sense, and it looks great in OD. Almost reminiscent of years past with the OD Jungles....

Somebody give Kirt a medal for this. :clap:

MATTHEW J BREWER
Capt, USCAP
PCR-OR-065

If you asked the question a different way, you might get radically different answers.  Look at this poll done a year ago, which showed strong support among CAPTalk members for maintaining our current mix of AF-style, corporate, etc. 
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1385.0

The strongest supported option other than our current situation was some variation of an AF-style only uniform option.  A "CAP uniform" only option only had 14% support. 

Yes, but unlike your poll, mine offers a new option, something that the voters can see; something tangible.  Not to mention, mine is specific to the utility uniform, not an across the board poll regarding all CAP uniforms.

Perhaps your poll results would be different if you suggested something specific.  I don't think our two polls have anything to do with one another.

I do understand that a lot of people will not like my unofficial proposal, I'm okay with that.  I'm not heart broken and I'm not losing sleep.  It was almost fun throwing it out there.  However, I do think we have a broken system.  Some say "why try to fix something that ain't broke", well my personal opinion is that it is broken and it will remain as such until we have one service uniform, one utility uniform and one flight uniform for every member to wear.

Fact is, I offered a poll with a picture of something new.  More than half of the votes are in favor of my prototype utility uniform.  I'm actually surprised that it did so well.  I really expected a lot more responses like yours, RiverAux.  And I can appreciate yours and everyone else's opinions.  It's cool, no biggie.  I truly think I have a good idea and I do believe it can work.  That said, I know it won't go any further than this discussion/poll.  So don't worry, you won't have to wear the KBU.

Here is what a comprehensive poll would have today:
1.  Keep current mix of AF-style uniforms, current corporate uniforms, civilian uniforms. etc., as they are for the forseeable future. 
2.  Keep current mix of AF-style uniforms, current corporate uniforms, civilian uniforms, etc but transition to ABUs and new AF service dress when allowed by AF.
3.  Keep current AF-style uniforms and corporate dress uniforms, civilian uniforms, but drop the BBDUs in favor of Stonewall's proposed corporate field uniform for those who can't wear AF-style.
4.  Keep current AF-style uniforms and corporate dress uniforms, civilian uniforms, but drop the BBDUs in favor of Stonewall's proposed corporate field uniform for those who can't wear AF-style.  But, transition to ABU/new AF service dress when authorized by AF. 
5.  Drop all AF-style uniforms, only wear BBDUs, TPU, civilian uniforms. 
6.  Drop all AF-style uniforms, only wear Stonewall's proposed uniform, TPU, civilian uniforms. 

I think you would get some radically different results if all the options were actually presented. 

I think by the time people got to #3, they'd either go blind or hit the "back" button.  But I bet if you put pictures to represent the different options, people would be more likely to vote.

Anyway, I'll probably lock the poll and watch this discussion drift away off into the sunset...

Quote from: Stonewall on January 04, 2008, 03:37:29 PM
BTW, here is an image of the KBU pants, but in khaki.  It's easier to see the features in the khaki than in OD.

(http://images.afmo.com/products/201/00/22/201-00223-2.jpg)

Kirt- Now I know the KBU is Tru-Spec TRUs with the Mr. Kirt touch. And well they should be. After a long period of not much innovation, Tru-Spec has finally come up with a uniform that fits the times. I have a pair of these with my IMERT stuff sewn on, just waiting for approval to wear them. They are comfortable. The convertable collar is handy, though so far Ive only worn mine in the standup configuration They have the warrior like appearance that so many CAPsters crave. The seem to be able to stand up to abuse. Perhaps the biggest deal is cost. They are inexpensive and Ive never had any problems with Tru-Spec gear. SInce I have the set of khakis in TRUs, Ive actually worn them to one meeting and people werent quite sure what the difference was. Kept looking at their BDUs and then at my TRUs. Im also in the process of jumping through hoops for a corrections officers job in a 2200 inmate facility and there is serious talk about phasing out the typical police style uniform for the grey TRUs. I was talking to a CO from the same facility and he said that there is something slightly intimidating about the TRU, especially when inmates are used to seeing the old grey police uniforms. The TRU (pardon be KBU) just has a little more of the warrior edge to it. I think it would also work well both for corrections officer (or CO hopefuls like myself) working on a corrections emergency response team because the mandarin collar can be tightened up around the balaclavas that the CERT guys wear. Anyway...more about my new job path in a PM to Stonewall. I love this uniform and if given the choice of BDUs or TRUs with IMERT I will go with TRUs and keep my BDUs for standby. I spoke with our deputy admin today and she had never seen them and loves them. If the whole team doesnt switch to them, she thinks that they would be good for our Terrorism Task Force, USAR, etc. I thought I liked them but she went  totally gaga.

In the CAP arena...this is the "where have you been all my life" uniform. It works for both the lean and mean and the fat and fuzzy. Eliminates at least one uniform and things the uniform regs by an untold number of pages. I like the rank in the center of the chest and I know for a fact that the slanted pockets are easier to get into. I slapped some velcro'd patches on for a recent field medical drill (with permission of course) and found that they worked fantastically. No failures. I dont know if there is a different cut to the leg, but they blouse better, even with 8" boots and they stay up better under the heavy weight of the 5.11 riggers belt I wear (the buckle is dye cast and weighs about 12 oz..by the way...best belt I have ever owned. It is very comfortable, has velcro to keep the tail of the belt from flapping around and eliminating the need to cut it off, its easy to adjust as gear starts to shift during your field work and Im convinced that the drop forged buckle could be used as a weapon. If the 5.11 riggers/trainers belt fits CAP regs, I recommend it to everyone as the perfect belt. Im getting another one with the addition of kidney pads to wear over my BDU blouse as a duty belt.I have tried this out already and it holds up to two (1) two quart canteens, my EMT holster which weighs about a pound, streamlight stinger, personal first aide kit and a few other chatchkees.

I think CAP should enter into a supply agreement with Tru-Spec and 5.11 for all uniform needs. Just watch the Tru-Spec dye lots: a recent set of khaki BDUs has a blouse that was actually coyote and pants that were desert tan. Its a noticeable difference so that is now my work, trash it up if I have to set.

Quote from: Stonewall on January 05, 2008, 03:27:28 AM
Yes, but unlike your poll, mine offers a new option, something that the voters can see; something tangible.  Not to mention, mine is specific to the utility uniform, not an across the board poll regarding all CAP uniforms.

Perhaps your poll results would be different if you suggested something specific.  I don't think our two polls have anything to do with one another.

I do understand that a lot of people will not like my unofficial proposal, I'm okay with that.  I'm not heart broken and I'm not losing sleep.  It was almost fun throwing it out there.  However, I do think we have a broken system.  Some say "why try to fix something that ain't broke", well my personal opinion is that it is broken and it will remain as such until we have one service uniform, one utility uniform and one flight uniform for every member to wear.

Fact is, I offered a poll with a picture of something new.  More than half of the votes are in favor of my prototype utility uniform.  I'm actually surprised that it did so well.  I really expected a lot more responses like yours, RiverAux.  And I can appreciate yours and everyone else's opinions.  It's cool, no biggie.  I truly think I have a good idea and I do believe it can work.  That said, I know it won't go any further than this discussion/poll.  So don't worry, you won't have to wear the KBU.

Uncle Kirt-

Say you bucked this new uniform all the way up the chain and it got approved for wear with a mandatory wear of 2010, eliminating both camo and BBDU. I wonder if we would see alot more polo shirt wearers among those that dont like them. Other than SAR, what are the jobs that polos are not allowed for?

Quote from: SARMedTech on January 05, 2008, 07:00:19 AM

Quote from: Stonewall on January 05, 2008, 03:27:28 AM
Yes, but unlike your poll, mine offers a new option, something that the voters can see; something tangible.  Not to mention, mine is specific to the utility uniform, not an across the board poll regarding all CAP uniforms.

Perhaps your poll results would be different if you suggested something specific.  I don't think our two polls have anything to do with one another.

I do understand that a lot of people will not like my unofficial proposal, I'm okay with that.  I'm not heart broken and I'm not losing sleep.  It was almost fun throwing it out there.  However, I do think we have a broken system.  Some say "why try to fix something that ain't broke", well my personal opinion is that it is broken and it will remain as such until we have one service uniform, one utility uniform and one flight uniform for every member to wear.

Fact is, I offered a poll with a picture of something new.  More than half of the votes are in favor of my prototype utility uniform.  I'm actually surprised that it did so well.  I really expected a lot more responses like yours, RiverAux.  And I can appreciate yours and everyone else's opinions.  It's cool, no biggie.  I truly think I have a good idea and I do believe it can work.  That said, I know it won't go any further than this discussion/poll.  So don't worry, you won't have to wear the KBU.

Uncle Kirt-

Say you bucked this new uniform all the way up the chain and it got approved for wear with a mandatory wear of 2010, eliminating both camo and BBDU. I wonder if we would see alot more polo shirt wearers among those that dont like them. Other than SAR, what are the jobs that polos are not allowed for?

Where does it say that the polo isn't allowed for SAR?

Quote from: JThemann on January 05, 2008, 03:08:00 PMWear does it say that the polo isn't allowed for SAR?

As far as I know, it doesn't say it.  As far as I'm concerned, the polo combo is no different than BDUs or a flight suit.  You can wear them when and where you want.

I find it hilarious how the far majority wants the KBU.

I would love to see this go through the chain and work it's way into policy at some point. It'd be beyond nice to have to pay one more time for a uniform and sewing...

Don't we have THE uniform guy on here somewhere? :)

Quote from: Nathan on January 05, 2008, 03:19:24 PM
I find it hilarious how the far majority wants the KBU.

I would love to see this go through the chain and work it's way into policy at some point. It'd be beyond nice to have to pay one more time for a uniform and sewing...

Don't we have THE uniform guy on here somewhere? :)

1. Considering the fact that the main idea is for the KBU to replace at least 2 uniforms, it seems pretty cost effective to me.

2. By the KBU at your local uniform shoppe and most will sew your patches for free if not at a drastically reduced price. Its all part of the tailoring.

3. Tru-Spec is not only a better quality uniform than the Asian imports alot of members are wearing, they stand up better, look better and are overall of a better quality, which I am sure are three factors that Kirt took into account before making his suggestion.

4. I also say that we drop the grey pant requirement with the polo shirt uniform and go to OD green. If all members who wear the polo combo bought their OD green pants through Tru-Spec it would eliminate the "where can I get grey pants that match everyone else's?" And since the KBU would technically (I think) be a corporate uniform, Brother Blue couldnt put the kaibosh on it.

Quote from: Nathan on January 05, 2008, 03:19:24 PM

.... It'd be beyond nice to have to pay one more time for a uniform and sewing...

Unless I am reading in to the photo, there should be no sewing needed. The patches and nametapes affix with velcro, just like ACU's. A smart vendor should have "velcro-ready" patches and nametapes available close to the time this uniform would be fielded (yes I know I may be giving Vanguard more credit than they have demonstrated they are worth, but there is nothing lost with being optimistic)

The uniform in my picture came with OD velcro for nametapes and rank, but they weren't sewn on.  I'm sure they did that so as to give us the option.  Not everyone has a need to velcro everything on.  For us, I could go either way.  I would even venture the thought of making it optional.  However, if we did velcro our tapes, I would then suggest making it policy to pin our badges on vs sewing them.  Wouldn't make sense to have permanent badges sewn yet tapes be velcroed.  YMMV.

I bet, we could negotiate the price of the TRU from Tru-Spec down to $29.99 a piece vs $39.99 and have velcro sewn on already.  I mean, when you contract someone to do something like this, you just put what you want into the contract, just like having them make OD outergarments like raingear and cold wx gear.

I'd really like to see this uniform out there soon.

I just can't imagine that there are many members willing to give up their BDU's. After all, how will we know the REAL members from the OTHER ones. ::)

Quote from: Nathan on January 05, 2008, 06:47:21 PM
I'd really like to see this uniform out there soon.

I just can't imagine that there are many members willing to give up their BDU's. After all, how will we know the REAL members from the OTHER ones. ::)

*shrugs* I wear Blue BDUs all the time, and no one has ever seen me as less of a member.

Quote from: JThemann on January 05, 2008, 07:49:12 PM
*shrugs* I wear Blue BDUs all the time, and no one has ever seen me as less of a member.

You do realize that isn't my point.  The point is to have everyone in a single uniform.  I swear I've said this was my goal at least 10 times during this 5 page thread.  I don't knock anyone for exercising their right to wear BBDUs as long as it's allowed in the regs.  I personally don't care for the BBDUs, but that's my problem.

Quote from: Stonewall on January 05, 2008, 08:01:55 PM

Quote from: JThemann on January 05, 2008, 07:49:12 PM
*shrugs* I wear Blue BDUs all the time, and no one has ever seen me as less of a member.

You do realize that isn't my point.  The point is to have everyone in a single uniform.  I swear I've said this was my goal at least 10 times during this 5 page thread.  I don't knock anyone for exercising their right to wear BBDUs as long as it's allowed in the regs.  I personally don't care for the BBDUs, but that's my problem.

I wasn't responding to that Colonel. I understand your idea.

Quote from: Stonewall on January 05, 2008, 08:01:55 PMThe point is to have everyone in a single uniform.

I've been wishing for an all-inclusive uniform for years and this is a great option that should REALLY be pushed up the chain.

Where do I start?  My Wing CC?

Quote from: baronet68 on January 05, 2008, 10:57:47 PM
Where do I start?  My Wing CC?

I actually sent a picture and note to Col Frank McConnell from MER.  I know he was on the uniform committee a year or so ago, but I'm not sure if he is anymore.  He's a good friend, known him for about 16 years.  He's the one that officially suggested and pushed up the gore-tex rank thing.  We used to do it for years before he thought to send it up. 

Sent it a few days ago, no reply, but he's in and out of the country a lot.

Have we resolved the issue of cold weather protection for this uniform? Are there manufacturers who will make the parka in this "pattern"?

Also... this uniform will be VERY expensive as it would be made solely for CAP use. We would not be tapping into a very large government contract which ends up fairly inexpensive for the end user.

Quote from: Stonewall on January 06, 2008, 03:25:09 AM
He's the one that officially suggested and pushed up the gore-tex rank thing.

If he's the one that suggested the gore-tex insignia tab, can you ask him why there are no cadet officer ones like they're supposed to be.  I'd like to be in regs when I wear my gore-tex parka, but it's impossible. 

Quote from: afgeo4 on January 06, 2008, 04:03:28 AM
Have we resolved the issue of cold weather protection for this uniform? Are there manufacturers who will make the parka in this "pattern"?

No "we" haven't resolved the issue.  However, I did mention a solution that does work on a daily basis.  When somone wants something, you ask for it.  As I've stated in this thread, maybe even on this page, Tru-Spec already makes cold and wet weather gear for this uniform, just not in OD.  If we gave them the demand for 10,000, which is an unrealistic number, because it would be in the 30K+ range (55K CAP members), it will be a non-issue.  Plus, the cost of this foul weather gear is <$100.  Trust me, they'll make it.

After all, what is your solution for outergarments with the highly expensive ABU?  You think because they're made for the AF in mass quantities that they're cheap?  Nope.  What is the current answer to your question with BBDU/BDUs?  We either pay more than $100 for a GI Issue gore-tex or we wear whatever civilian outer garment we can find.  Same has been happening for 60 years.

Quote from: afgeo4 on January 06, 2008, 04:03:28 AMAlso... this uniform will be VERY expensive as it would be made solely for CAP use. We would not be tapping into a very large government contract which ends up fairly inexpensive for the end user.

Um, no, it won't be "VERY" expensive.  Right now, it costs less than the ABU.  The BBDUs, which are a poor quality, cost about $24 a piece, that's $48.  In bulk, with a contract, there is no doubt in my mind that we could get the KBU (Tru-Spec TRU) at $30 a piece ($60), $24 less than the ABU currently costs. 

Did you take notice of the points I made about the ABU boots?  Cheapest pair, the summer/hot weather ones, cost $114.  No more wearing pretty much any black boot you want. 

A lot of the question people are asking are questions that we can ask ourselves about our current set-up with BBDUs and BDUs.  What is the answer for outer garments with BBDUs?  If one wishes to maintain a sense of uniformity with the BBDUs do they make a military style gore-tex in blue?  Or do you just throw on your Redskins jacket?

Quote from: CASH172 on January 06, 2008, 04:13:58 AM
If he's the one that suggested the gore-tex insignia tab, can you ask him why there are no cadet officer ones like they're supposed to be.  I'd like to be in regs when I wear my gore-tex parka, but it's impossible. 

He suggested gore-tex rank tabs, he didn't manufacture them.  I don't know what the deal is with cadet rank.  Personally, I'd either wear nothing or pin on a set of strips, pips or diamonds.

Quote from: afgeo4 on January 06, 2008, 04:03:28 AM
Have we resolved the issue of cold weather protection for this uniform? Are there manufacturers who will make the parka in this "pattern"?

Also... this uniform will be VERY expensive as it would be made solely for CAP use. We would not be tapping into a very large government contract which ends up fairly inexpensive for the end user.

This uniform is about the same cost as the BDU or BBDU, and it is available off the shelf today.  See the earler posts. (Stonewall posted better info while I was typing)

M-65s are available off the shelf in OD at this time, and I am sure that provision for extream cold weather gear is also available in OD.

I am all for this.

Quote from: afgeo4 on January 06, 2008, 04:03:28 AM
Have we resolved the issue of cold weather protection for this uniform? Are there manufacturers who will make the parka in this "pattern"?

Also... this uniform will be VERY expensive as it would be made solely for CAP use. We would not be tapping into a very large government contract which ends up fairly inexpensive for the end user.

Funny you should say that as I was just thinking that you cant swing a dead cat without hitting an OD green M-65. Problem solved. I already have two of them in my closet. Also, since this is a "corporate" uniform, any fitting civilian ECW gear would be suitable. Get an OD Green or Black parka or cold weather coat from Cabelas, Gander Mountain, REI...the list goes on.

I suppose this happens with anything that people dont like, but the reasons that people are coming up with why the KBU wont work are just plain making things up. Could we wear this with it? Where would we get matching ECW gear. Just about every tactical or surplus store you find online has almost every item in a choice of black, woodlands, digitals of some sort, navy blue and black. I didnt feel like shelling out more money for and ECW coat for IMERT because I wear it for EMS with the "Emergency Medical Services" patch on the left and the reverse flag on the right. So...since we can wear black ECW with khaki BDUs, I just got one of the patches or velcro like you see on the ABU/ACU/KBU, took the patch off my coat sleeve, sewed the velcro square in it, had velcro stitched on the IMERT patch and the EMS patch and I carry both in an inside pocket. If I get called our for volly EMS, I slap that patch on their. If I get deployed for IMERT I stick the IMERT patch on the sleeve along with my "OS" (occupational specialty, just not military) rocker and we're good to go. For cool but not cold weather, find yourself a good anorak in OD or an OD windbreaker.

I don't see why we couldn't wear the Woodland Gore-tex or even M-65 with the KBU for the time being. It wouldn't be great, but it wouldn't look terrible either.  Most soldiers still mix Woodland with ACU and granted it doesn't "look good" but when you are on the range all day during the winter, you are glad to have it regardless of what it looks like.

Quote from: sfdefender on January 06, 2008, 05:23:28 PM
I don't see why we couldn't wear the Woodland Gore-tex or even M-65 with the KBU for the time being. It wouldn't be great, but it wouldn't look terrible either.  Most soldiers still mix Woodland with ACU and granted it doesn't "look good" but when you are on the range all day during the winter, you are glad to have it regardless of what it looks like.

I agree with you on the woodland patter for a temporary fix.  I actually like the mix.  But for uniform purposes, I agree it would be acceptable for a set time period, then make OD outer garments mandatory, or as we currently do, strongly suggest OD outer garments, but accept anything that keeps you warm and dry.

QuoteIf one wishes to maintain a sense of uniformity with the BBDUs do they make a military style gore-tex in blue?

NO!

I have been looking everywhere!

The closest I can find is the foul weather jacket made for the Coast Guard, NOT CHEAP!

Quote from: cap235629 on January 07, 2008, 12:24:36 AM

QuoteIf one wishes to maintain a sense of uniformity with the BBDUs do they make a military style gore-tex in blue?

NO!

I have been looking everywhere!

The closest I can find is the foul weather jacket made for the Coast Guard, NOT CHEAP!

Still haven't found a gore-tex, but here is a Navy Blue M-65 field jacket for $69.99 produced by our friends at Tru-Spec. (http://www.galls.com/google/style.html?assort=general_catalog&style=JA178&cat=3158)

(http://www.galls.com/jpegs/20211.jpg)


However, here (http://www.galls.com/google/style.html?assort=general_catalog&style=JA418&cat=3158) is Galls Acrtic Field Coat in Navy.


But personally, if I were to wear BBDUs, I would fork out the money for this bad boy (http://www.galls.com/google/style.html?assort=general_catalog&style=JA331&cat=3158)

(http://www.galls.com/jpegs/23501.jpg)

But of course, I still say the KBU is the way to go  :)

deleted

Quote from: RiverAux on January 07, 2008, 01:21:19 AM
I wonder just how badly this idea would get trounced in a poll on CadetStuff? 

Don't think they do polls over there but here's the thread. (http://forums.cadetstuff.org/viewtopic.php?t=10000)

Truthfully, I think a large majority of those who have responded over there have responded here.  Even if they didn't post, I know of 3 or 4 who have voted, for and against. 

Quote from: RiverAux on January 07, 2008, 01:21:19 AM
deleted

Too slow.

Quote from: Stonewall on January 07, 2008, 01:23:23 AM

Quote from: RiverAux on January 07, 2008, 01:21:19 AM
I wonder just how badly this idea would get trounced in a poll on CadetStuff? 

He made that up   >:D

FYI, for all the ABU folks out there, I tallied up the cost difference, excluding patches/insignia.

ABUs (with the cheapest boots):

$114 (boots)
$84 (ABU top/bottom)
=$204

$50 (average new pair of authorized black boots)
$80 (cost of TRU now, before a mass order discount for CAP)
=$130

$74 difference

I do agree that sage (AF gray/green) boots will come down in cost, but I think the cost for ABUs for CAP folks is way too high, even initially.

I'd be very happy if they let everyone into ABUs, but I doubt that'll happen.  That means, for all our members who are overweight or don't care to cut your hair and shave, ABUs won't even be an option for you.  You'll be required to wear an alternate uniform and that's my point of introducing one uniform for all members.

What I've got that I wear with my BBDUs is a Wear Guard three season jacket in navy blue.  Other than a hidden hood, it looks very much like the ECWCS parka, but has a zip-out fleece liner, and features a 1" scotchlight band around each sleeve.  Water and wind resistant, and warm as all get out.

Honestly though, it was the uniform jacket for my former employer (AMR).  I'm not sure if they're even available to the general public.  My unit commander, another former AMR employee has one just like it, and we're the only BBDU wearers in the unit at present, so it's uniform for us.

I'm not sure if Wear Guard is even still in business, but they were a subsidiary or Aramark, which is also the parent company of Galls (that's where our uniforms came from).  If you're looking, Galls would be the best bet.

Guess I'll weigh in. Truth is, I don't care about the ACU. I guess I'm just at a point that I just wear what they give me, and learn to work with it.

In a perfect world, I would hold out for the ABU, and see if we could get an ABU pattern uniform in a gray color that fairly closely matches the appearance of the ABU. With the same tapes, badges and insignia, the appearance would be fairly uniform.

However, that perfect world, where all our members could afford anything, and money isn't an issue doesn't exist. I wouldn't do it for the same reason that I don't want to have to get corporate clothes. I've got perfectly serviceable stuff in my closet that the Air Force issued me, and I don't see any real reason to replace it. I wouldn't want to do that to anyone else either.

BDUs are pretty sturdy, and whichever color people have are going to be useful for a long while, considering how little we wear them in CAP. The uniformity seems to be an issue when they want others dressed like them. We can get along just fine with different colors. Don't remeber who said it on CAPTalk (wasn't me) but a uniform just buys you time til you can show your professionalism. We can all be dressed alike, but still be completely fractured when it comes to our ablilities.

I'm beginning to understand the viewpoints that we should be more concentrated on our qualifications with only a minimal focus on our appearance. The only focus we should have on our appearance should be proper uniform wear. There's a manual for that, and we need to be paying attention to it. Other than that, it shouldn't be an issue.

Okay, the horse has been beaten.

My guess, this uniform idea will not even be taken into consideration.

Here's the way I think it'll go....

Okay guys and gals, what do you think about that dumb Stonewall idea with his "KBU"?

Hahahahahahaaha....oh geez, colonel, you're a pill....hahahahahaha....

Out of 80 votes, just over 50% were in favor of the KBU.  Next in line was the option to hold out for the ABU, even though the cost is astronomical.

Quote from: Stonewall on January 11, 2008, 05:54:32 PM
Okay, the horse has been beaten.

My guess, this uniform idea will not even be taken into consideration.

When I'm National Commander, I'll consider your idea.

Quote from: Nathan on January 12, 2008, 09:53:00 PM

Quote from: Stonewall on January 11, 2008, 05:54:32 PM
Okay, the horse has been beaten.

My guess, this uniform idea will not even be taken into consideration.

When I'm National Commander, I'll consider your idea.

I hope that is next week, as I am sure many have already purchased the KBU when they first saw the pics!   ;D

Quote from: mikeylikey on January 13, 2008, 02:00:10 AM
I hope that is next week, as I am sure many have already purchased the KBU when they first saw the pics!   ;D

Heck, Vanguard has already had it on their website, removed it once, put it back up at a higher price from a lower quality supplier, and found a way to jack the shipping up while getting it to you only a week before its phase out date in favor of the ABU in 2015....

^  :o 8)

Quote from: mikeylikey on January 13, 2008, 02:00:10 AM

Quote from: Nathan on January 12, 2008, 09:53:00 PM

Quote from: Stonewall on January 11, 2008, 05:54:32 PM
Okay, the horse has been beaten.

My guess, this uniform idea will not even be taken into consideration.

When I'm National Commander, I'll consider your idea.

I hope that is next week, as I am sure many have already purchased the KBU when they first saw the pics!   ;D

You mean I donated my camos to the cadets for nothing? And, maybe Im lost, but I thought KB was the National Commander. Glad I look good in OD.

FYI... for those interested in switching over to the ABUs, the cheapest ABU gore-tex out there is about $299.  Back when BDU gore-tex jackets came out they were about $170 until the price lowered. 

Even if the ABU gore-tex price lowers, it isn't going to be under $200, ever.  So keep pushing for the ABU because unless you're rich or in the Air Force (ANG, AFRES) like me and get one free, you'll be forking out about $500 for ABUs, boots, and Gore-tex.  Heck, even the gore-tex ABU pants are at $150.

Quote from: Stonewall on January 07, 2008, 12:47:39 AM

Quote from: cap235629 on January 07, 2008, 12:24:36 AM

QuoteIf one wishes to maintain a sense of uniformity with the BBDUs do they make a military style gore-tex in blue?

NO!

I have been looking everywhere!

The closest I can find is the foul weather jacket made for the Coast Guard, NOT CHEAP!

Definitely not cheap. Here's a couple places:

http://www.galaxyarmynavy.com/search_gore_tex.asp

http://www.botachtactical.com/prallwesy.html

http://www.vtarmynavy.com/rain-gear.html

http://www.uspatriotstore.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=5406

http://www.securityprousa.com/prallwesybdu.html

The CG Foul Weather Parka seems to be essentially a Gen II Gore-Tex parka. The pockets seem to be slightly different, but the collar, cuffs, general pattern all seem to be the same. It even has a rank tab in the same location as the standard Gore-Tex.

Spendy, but it would work the same as any other military Gore-Tex.

There is what appears to be an accompanying PolarTec jacket (fleece) in blue that seems like it would be a pretty practical item. Might invest in one of the cheaper ones. Would probably look fairly decent with a BBDU.

Got bored.  "BUMP".

Any new folks out there wish to comment?

Okay,  I like the KBU.   

Quote from: Redbird Leader on February 01, 2008, 02:46:17 AM
Okay,  I like the KBU.   

Sorry, just can't get into it.

Quote from: RogueLeader on February 01, 2008, 02:51:24 AM

Quote from: Redbird Leader on February 01, 2008, 02:46:17 AM
Okay,  I like the KBU.   

Sorry, just can't get into it.

Try a bigger size......... >:D

Quote from: stillamarine on February 01, 2008, 02:56:36 AM

Quote from: RogueLeader on February 01, 2008, 02:51:24 AM

Quote from: Redbird Leader on February 01, 2008, 02:46:17 AM
Okay,  I like the KBU.   

Sorry, just can't get into it.

Try a bigger size......... >:D

Yeah, too many donuts. . .  ::)

I like to think forward , not backward

Folks-

It really is ok for a uniform topic to die, even if it was a good one. Its just part of the circle of life.

^NEVER!!!!!!!

Quote from: smj58501 on February 01, 2008, 05:47:53 AM
Folks-

It really is ok for a uniform topic to die, even if it was a good one. Its just part of the circle of life.

You are trying to censor me.  You can't do that to me!!!
And violate the unwritten rules about uniform threads on CapTalk????

I'm still amazed that I'm the only one who posted (and voted for) an alternate idea.

Quote from: ddelaney103 on February 01, 2008, 03:32:08 PM
I'm still amazed that I'm the only one who posted (and voted for) an alternate idea.

Technically, I proposed an alternate idea.  Just so happens, 51.3% of folks voted for that same alternate idea.  ;D

Quote from: Stonewall on February 01, 2008, 05:59:18 PM

Quote from: ddelaney103 on February 01, 2008, 03:32:08 PM
I'm still amazed that I'm the only one who posted (and voted for) an alternate idea.

Technically, I proposed an alternate idea.  Just so happens, 51.3% of folks voted for that same alternate idea.  ;D

Nope, it's your poll, so you're officially the Establishment.

"The Man" is always keeping us down...

There have been a lot of "single uniform" conspiracies but the KBU is the first one that makes any sense: while it may be retro, it is retro in color only. I like the Tru-Spec TRU Kirt is using for the base of the uniform (trying to get IMERT to go to it in khaki) and it is a much more suitable all-purpose, all member uniform than the BBDU. I know when I see a bunch of more "rotund" CAPsters in BBDUs, it looks like a retirement reunion for a SWAT team.  Also, there is no logical way that the USAF could object to it...oh wait, there i go again inserting logic into military matters.


LONG LIVE THE KBU!  LONG LIVE STONEWALL!!!

Quote from: SARMedTech on February 02, 2008, 08:41:28 AM
LONG LIVE THE KBU!  LONG LIVE STONEWALL!!!

That's a little out of control.

Quote from: ddelaney103 on February 01, 2008, 07:26:54 PM

Quote from: Stonewall on February 01, 2008, 05:59:18 PM

Quote from: ddelaney103 on February 01, 2008, 03:32:08 PM
I'm still amazed that I'm the only one who posted (and voted for) an alternate idea.

Technically, I proposed an alternate idea.  Just so happens, 51.3% of folks voted for that same alternate idea.  ;D

Nope, it's your poll, so you're officially the Establishment.

"The Man" is always keeping us down...

Not to burst your bubble, but I don't see any other ideas on the table and still you only got 51.3% of the votes.

Quote from: afgeo4 on February 02, 2008, 10:02:07 PMNot to burst your bubble, but I don't see any other ideas on the table and still you only got 51.3% of the votes.

Wow, aren't you the bearer of bad news.  You probably couldn't wait to post that huh?

Here's the deal.  First, it wasn't my idea vs other ideas, it was a poll which compared my idea against other options that are already out there.

No body asked for my input, ideas or thoughts.  It's called being proactive; brainstorming.  It's me understanding that there is a necessary change coming down the pike and instead of waiting for it to hit us and have nothing on the table, I decided, on my own accord, to offer an idea.  Who gives a rat's ass if it ever ends up on the bargaining table.  I guess I can just sit here and do nothing.  Let others put their two cents in and then [censored] about it after not at least offering something.

My idea beat out 3 (really 2) other options combined.  Goes to show, of the 80 folks that voted, 41 (that's more than half) would opt for my idea versus sticking with BDUs/BBDUs or changing totally to ABUs in an effort for all of us to be in one utility uniform.

I was driving home from wing conference and thought of something: Since the USAF is switching to ABUs after the phase out date BDUs will no longer be a USAF style uniform and everyone would be permitted to wear it. Just a thought....

Quote from: SSgt Rudin on February 04, 2008, 02:29:55 AM
I was driving home from wing conference and thought of something: Since the USAF is switching to ABUs after the phase out date BDUs will no longer be a USAF style uniform and everyone would be permitted to wear it. Just a thought....

Excellent thought...and has been mentioned a couple times in this discussion.  I would totally go for it, truly I would.  But I have long said the BDUs, although good looking and somewhat functional, I'd propose (as I did in this thread) a more functional uniform for field work since we'll basically be forced to make a change in the near future when the AF loses the BDU completely. 

My opinion, unlike others out there, the utility uniform is not a garrison or parade uniform.  It's a field uniform that is often the "duty" uniform and is used for office and field work alike.  No need for starch, ironing or spit-shining boots.  My humble opinion, but willing to go to an all-BDU auxiliary if it puts us in one utility uniform.

Quote from: SSgt Rudin on February 04, 2008, 02:29:55 AM
I was driving home from wing conference and thought of something: Since the USAF is switching to ABUs after the phase out date BDUs will no longer be a USAF style uniform and everyone would be permitted to wear it. Just a thought....

And where to you plan to get those BDU's? If you look at the shelves in most Clothing Sales stores you see a lot of empty ones where the BDU's are supposed to be.

Yeah, going to an "outside" source is an option, an expensive option, but it is an option.
And making BDU's a CAP Distinctive Uniform will probably do nothing but drive up the cost even more.

Quote from: PHall on February 04, 2008, 02:54:26 AMAnd where to you plan to get those BDU's? If you look at the shelves in most Clothing Sales stores you see a lot of empty ones where the BDU's are supposed to be.

Yeah, going to an "outside" source is an option, an expensive option, but it is an option.
And making BDU's a CAP Distinctive Uniform will probably do nothing but drive up the cost even more.

Actually, the prices of BDUs from companies like Proper (http://www.gearzoneproducts.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2091) and Tru-Spec (http://www.actiongear.com/cgi-bin/tame.exe/agcatalog/level4s.tam?xax=25157&M5COPY%2Ectx=10372&M5%2Ectx=3006&M2%5FDESC%2Ectx=BDU%20%2D%20Uniforms&level3%2Ectx=results%2Etam&query%2Ectx=TRU%2DSPEC&backto=%2Fagcatalog%2Fresults%2Etam) make BDUs to military specifications and are generally under $30.

See, these days, all these companies are making BDU and ACU style uniforms in all patterns or just solid colors.  Like my proposal to use Tru-Spec OD TRUs (now known as the KBU), they're the same exact thing as the ARMY ACU but plain OD green.  As long as groups (LE, EMS, Military) are using the physical design, the companies will continue to make them in whatever color scheme you need.

They won't be any more expensive or less widely available than the option proposed in this thread. 

Quote from: RiverAux on February 04, 2008, 03:18:19 AM
They won't be any more expensive or less widely available than the option proposed in this thread.  

Exactly what I said, with just a few more words and a link to examples.

Quote from: Stonewall on February 02, 2008, 01:36:14 PM

Quote from: SARMedTech on February 02, 2008, 08:41:28 AM
LONG LIVE THE KBU!  LONG LIVE STONEWALL!!!

That's a little out of control.

As opposed to most of the postings here on CAPTalk?  ;)

At the risk of repeating myself...again:

The KBU is the only viable alternative to the two uniform system of the non-starter of CAPsters fussing over when or if we will ever get the ABU. By the way, if you bought your moss boots already, I hope you saved the receipt cause those ABUs any coming down our pipeline any time soon unless they "fall of the back of a truck."

I dont hear anyone else coming up with anything that works.

The KBU solves the devisive two uniform debate, clearing out the muck of the need for camo and presenting a clear, military style uniform which is readily and inexpensively available, works with all currently used insignia, patches, etc.

For emphasis, I say again: we dont need no stinking camo. Never have, never will. Whether its woodland or diggies, it doesnt matter. And I got news for ya. Ive shown photos of some of the cadets I know to see what their reaction would be and most of them, in a very Paris Hilton like fashion said "That's hot." They liked the overall look, the cut of the TRU uniform base for the KBU, they liked the OD green/"retro thing" (their term, not mine) and several of them were sharp enough to recognize the elements of the uniform base that have some VietNam era throw-backs.

After Kirt introduced the KBU, I presented a photo-shopped version of the IMERT uniform in khaki using the Tru-Spec TRU as a base and most that saw it loved it. The younger folks liked the high speed look and the older ones liked the practical versatility.

I wish someone would pick up where Kirt has left off (so to speak) and bring this to the attention of NC. I think you would see it transitioned into the single field service uniform by 2011.

At the risk of repeating my self again - BBDUs for all accomplishes the same thing.  We don't HAVE to have two uniforms - we can always put all seniors in the corporate suit.

Then it's just down to a fashion choice - blue or green.

Personally, I prefer grey BDUs - very ES-like, but will blend pretty well with ABUs.  But any single suit for seniors if fine with me.

And getting cadets out of real USAF suits is a bad idea - it will cost them more, and it will eliminate one of our recruiting tools - a chance for kids to wear real warrior clothes.  (for seniors, I hope this isn't as important an incentive).

Quote from: Dragoon on February 04, 2008, 06:51:17 PM
- a chance for kids to wear real warrior clothes

Clothes do NOT make the Warrior. 

I serious hope you do not recruit on the basis of "hey kid you want to wear an Air Force uniform, and play Air Force".

Quote from: mikeylikey on February 04, 2008, 07:28:06 PMI serious hope you do not recruit on the basis of "hey kid you want to wear an Air Force uniform, and play Air Force".

I can see where he's coming from actually.  As a cadet, I saw CAP as "more military" than the Scouts and even Sea Cadets.  Part of the coolness of CAP is being a part of the Air Force military.  But I think we can look just as "military" wearing a squared away version of a military type uniform.  Again, the utility uniform I proposed is in fact a military uniform in a military color.  Just so happens it's OD green and the current version of the Army's Combat Uniform.  I find the ACU 10x more practical for utility purposes than the BDU or ABU.  Other than the pen and cell phone pockets on the ABU, they're the same thing as BDUs.  That and you don't have to iron them, yet.  The ACU on the other hand, is a FIELD uniform.  And while a field uniform is often worn in garrison enviornments, it shouldn't be designed from the beginning to be that way.  Garrison enviornments should be the secondary use for a utility uniform, not the primary.

Quote from: Stonewall on February 04, 2008, 07:50:51 PM
The ACU on the other hand, is a FIELD uniform.  And while a field uniform is often worn in garrison environments, it shouldn't be designed from the beginning to be that way.  Garrison environments should be the secondary use for a utility uniform, not the primary.

I can't agree with you more! 

Why the AF did not just adopt the ACU (but change the colors if they wanted) is mind-numbing.  How many years have AF personnel worn ACU's in Iraq/AFGH?  Like four??  Didn't the AF Times have  a poll on whether Airman deployed would rather have an ACU or ABU?  I think overwhelmingly, they came back and said ACU's. 

Now, I don't HATE the ABU, (never worn them), but taking BDU's and making them wash and wear without designing them for the war-fighter in mind was foolish.  It seems to me that it was designed as a "recruiting tool" for the AF.  As most uniforms are. 

I suppose in 2 years after the ABU has seen major sand-time we will then see the actually fallout from the AF decision.  Can't be any worse than the ass-stitching coming apart on the ACU's, right?   :o

Quote from: mikeylikey on February 04, 2008, 08:28:06 PM

Quote from: Stonewall on February 04, 2008, 07:50:51 PM
The ACU on the other hand, is a FIELD uniform.  And while a field uniform is often worn in garrison environments, it shouldn't be designed from the beginning to be that way.  Garrison environments should be the secondary use for a utility uniform, not the primary.

I can't agree with you more! 

Why the AF did not just adopt the ACU (but change the colors if they wanted) is mind-numbing.  How many years have AF personnel worn ACU's in Iraq/AFGH?  Like four??  Didn't the AF Times have  a poll on whether Airman deployed would rather have an ACU or ABU?  I think overwhelmingly, they came back and said ACU's. 

Now, I don't HATE the ABU, (never worn them), but taking BDU's and making them wash and wear without designing them for the war-fighter in mind was foolish.  It seems to me that it was designed as a "recruiting tool" for the AF.  As most uniforms are. 

I suppose in 2 years after the ABU has seen major sand-time we will then see the actually fallout from the AF decision.  Can't be any worse than the ass-stitching coming apart on the ACU's, right?   :o

I still think that it's just the Air Force's stubborn insistance that they had to have their own thing. I think the boots are a good example. Was there really anything wrong with wearing a tan boot? Not that I can think of, and I can think of a few reasons that it was a better option.

I too like the Idea, I like the Idea of one uniform also, but it must be distinctive, we have adopted a blue BDU, why not the Blue version of the ACU and allow a Black Gore Tex jacket (on the market and about $ 80.00 from BQM) the Velcro name tab and patches would save $$$.

Quote from: NJMEDIC on February 04, 2008, 09:49:41 PM
I too like the Idea, I like the Idea of one uniform also, but it must be distinctive, we have adopted a blue BDU, why not the Blue version of the ACU and allow a Black Gore Tex jacket (on the market and about $ 80.00 from BQM) the Velcro name tab and patches would save $$$.

Because we're still an Air Force(y) organization. The reason why I don't like Colonel Bowdens suggestions, and yours, is that its completely different from what the Air Force wears. It's a different cut, different material, different boots, different tee shirt, different patter, differen't anything.

In a perfect word to me, we're go to the ABU, with a tan ABU cut uniform as a replacement for BlueDUs.

From what I've seen the vast majority of senior members participating in ground SAR are wearing the AF uniform right now.  I can think of only a couple of GT members in our wing wearing BBDUs, and frankly 1 of them is so obese that he should not be on a ground team no matter what uniform he is wearing.  That being the case, I see no need to repudiate our history by switching to accomodate those few people.  

Quote from: mikeylikey on February 04, 2008, 07:28:06 PM

Quote from: Dragoon on February 04, 2008, 06:51:17 PM
- a chance for kids to wear real warrior clothes

Clothes do NOT make the Warrior. 

I serious hope you do not recruit on the basis of "hey kid you want to wear an Air Force uniform, and play Air Force".

and 12 year old kids aren't warriors, next point!

Playing "Air Force" is EXACTLY why we recruit cadets. It's exactly their mission. They get to learn followership, leadership, military drill, customs & courtesies, proper wear of USAF uniforms, aviation history, USAF history, perform operational tasks for the USAF and then hopefully attend AFROTC or USAFA. That's why they get the 10% of USAFA Prep slots. That's why they get the E-3 enlisting in the Air Force. That's why the Cadet Programs get funding from the Air Force. That's also why cadets specifically wear USAF style uniforms and not corporates. It surely isn't because these kids are playing "Coast Guard" or "Sheriff's Office" or "Cowboys and Indians".

You get it.

"Playing Air Force" isn't a phrase I'd use, but there IS some of that.  A young person is thrilled to become a Sergeant or a Captain - even if the word "cadet" is in front of the title. Wearing uniforms, acting military, getting the same titles as warriors - that IS part of our appeal to teenagers.

That's why I think taking cadets out of USAF uniforms is a bad idea - whether us old fogeys like it or not, the uniforms is a big part of our appeal.

Quote from: RiverAux on February 04, 2008, 10:02:55 PM
From what I've seen the vast majority of senior members participating in ground SAR are wearing the AF uniform right now.  I can think of only a couple of GT members in our wing wearing BBDUs, and frankly 1 of them is so obese that he should not be on a ground team no matter what uniform he is wearing.  That being the case, I see no need to repudiate our history by switching to accomodate those few people.  

If it was just about GT, I'd agree, but it ain't.

People staff encampment in utility uniforms.  They work air shows in utility uniforms.  They do all kinds of non-ES stuff in utility uniforms.

We need a utility uniform for all our members, not just GT folks.

Quote from: RiverAux on February 04, 2008, 10:02:55 PM
From what I've seen the vast majority of senior members participating in ground SAR are wearing the AF uniform right now.  I can think of only a couple of GT members in our wing wearing BBDUs, and frankly 1 of them is so obese that he should not be on a ground team no matter what uniform he is wearing.  That being the case, I see no need to repudiate our history by switching to accomodate those few people.  

First off, there is fifty one other wings. Second, you're not counting the number of guys who should be in the Blue BDUs (guys ten or twenty pounds over the limit.)

Third, GT work is just a small part of the program.

So, because some people aren't following the weight regulations, we all suffer for it.  That seems fair and sensible. 

This is all just a bunch of malarky since you folks who think it so important that all field uniforms be the same are still going to complain about all the other CAP uniform choices out there.  So, this won't solve your "problem" by any stretch.  Just alienate a bunch of folks and cost them money for no real benefit to the organization. 

I think there is value in uniformity.  Builds team identity, presents a better first impession to outsiders, etc.


Today's setup ain't real uniform - the Navy Blue collection doesn't blend at all with the woodland stuff, nor the green stuff.  The golf shirt isn't even close to the same style.  Headgear is all over the place.   We're missing out on the benefits of a uniform appearance.


Truthfully, I could care less about the service uniforms.  We could have a million of 'em to make folks happy. 

The critical time for teamwork and first impressions is on operational missions.  We really could benefit from something, anything, that helps in those situations.


If there is no value in uniformity, we could save everyone a load of money by saying you can wear whatever you want and just pin on a CAP badge on your pocket.

Quote from: RiverAux on February 05, 2008, 06:47:42 PM
So, because some people aren't following the weight regulations, we all suffer for it.  That seems fair and sensible. 

This is all just a bunch of malarky since you folks who think it so important that all field uniforms be the same are still going to complain about all the other CAP uniform choices out there.  So, this won't solve your "problem" by any stretch.  Just alienate a bunch of folks and cost them money for no real benefit to the organization. 

Speaking of "malarky".

Look, regardless of what happens in the future, it will cost money.  And in the case that we go to ABUs, talk about spending money, you'll almost double the cost of the utility uniform, so right there your argument holds no weight.

As for the folks that you say aren't following the weight standards, who made you king and better than the rest?  CAP, in its infancy, was for those who couldn't otherwise serve in our nation's armed forces.  Too young, too old, too heavy, too handicap, or for whatever reason, chose not to.  In CAP, weight standards ARE NOT MANDATORY for members, it's only required if you choose to wear the AF style uniform.  There ARE NO WEIGHT standards to join CAP, nor are there grooming standards.

I think, Mr. Rivers, you are very caught up in wanting to wear a military uniform.  That's fine, I'd prefer it that way too.  However, I'm flexible in all directions.  I meet the physical, grooming and weight standards of the AF and still have the goal of total uniformity.  Your elitist attitude shows in almost every post in this thread.  Your arguments against a single uniform for all members are obvious in that you want everyone in CAP to be the same, slim and trim and looking as if they're actually serving in the military.  News for you buddy, that will never be the case.  Even in the real military you find folks on shaving profiles and lots and lots of people who don't even meet CAP weight standards let alone the military ones.  Yes, I've seen them on active duty and in the reserves.

You voted in this poll.  You've said your piece and demonstrated your total disgust for those in CAP who want one uniform.  You've also stated your feelings of insult that others want you to have to put down your BDUs and wear a different uniform, that may not make you look "air force".  Guess what, chances are you're discontent for my uniform idea or the thought of going to one uniform is futile, because in the end, we will most likely remain the same; ABUs for those that meet the requirements and some Scarlet Letter type uniform denouncing the "fat and fuzzy".  So stop getting worked up, in the end, you'll win.

Just an observation - not aimed at anyone in particular.  Honest.

In a lot of these discussions, we seem to get caught up in the endless debate between "what about ME?" and what about US?"

For example, if the uniform question is "What about ME?" then I naturally want to wear whatever makes me look the best, and impresses others with my incredible studliness.

But if you're a unit commander, then you might ask "What about US?"  And then you might see some value in having all of your folks in the same uniform. (others commanders might be worried folks will quit if a single uniform was required, but it's still about US not ME)


If the weight question is "What about ME?" then if you're thin, you want fat guys to shape up or quit. 

But if you're a unit commander, then you might ask "what about US?" because you've got a couple of fat guys/gals who are great assets, but you're pretty sure that they are gonna stay heavy for quite some time.


For my 2 cents, I believe in:

1.  A single, mandatory uniform, for teamwork's sake.  Even if that means it ain't my favorite suit. 
2.  Uniform outer garments, since they cover up the uniform underneath.
3.  Don't worry about weight - it's too hard to change.
4. A single set of grooming standards - unlike losing weight, 99% of folks could shave or cut their hair a bit in about 5 minutes..  This isn't a fashion contest.  (And for the 1% with medical issues, we could have waivers).

But Stonewall's right.  CAP wants your dues, so it will keep letting you wear whatever makes you feel good.  It really is all about YOU.

Quote from: Dragoon on February 06, 2008, 07:39:45 PM
For example, if the uniform question is "What about ME?" then I naturally want to wear whatever makes me look the best, and impresses others with my incredible studliness.

Actually I want to wear whatever makes me look sexier.  I am sure that is what is subconsciously going through many members minds as well.  Sexier=taken more seriously, Taken more seriously=feel better about ones self, feeling better about ones self=Awesome!

Quote from: mikeylikey on February 06, 2008, 07:57:43 PM

Quote from: Dragoon on February 06, 2008, 07:39:45 PM
For example, if the uniform question is "What about ME?" then I naturally want to wear whatever makes me look the best, and impresses others with my incredible studliness.

Actually I want to wear whatever makes me look sexier.  I am sure that is what is subconsciously going through many members minds as well.  Sexier=taken more seriously, Taken more seriously=feel better about ones self, feeling better about ones self=Awesome!

Too true

Tags - MIKE

Quote from: mikeylikey on February 06, 2008, 07:57:43 PM

Quote from: Dragoon on February 06, 2008, 07:39:45 PM
For example, if the uniform question is "What about ME?" then I naturally want to wear whatever makes me look the best, and impresses others with my incredible studliness.

Actually I want to wear whatever makes me look sexier.  I am sure that is what is subconsciously going through many members minds as well.  Sexier=taken more seriously, Taken more seriously=feel better about ones self, feeling better about ones self=Awesome!

Everybody now: "I'm too sexy for my blues..."  :-)

I think you're right on the thought process.

The part they're screwing up is "sexier = taken more seriously."  This isn't always the case.    It is if you're the only guy present in uniform, but if you're part of a group.......your individual sexiness matters a heck of a lot less than the total sexiness of the group.  And THAT'S where uniformity becomes important.

It's the difference between a costume (me, Me, ME) and a uniform (US).

^ Your right, Group Sexiness is FAR better than individual sexiness. 

That is our culture though.  The guy wearing the Prada suit at IBM  will be noticed over the guy wearing the Sears special.  (nothing wrong with Sears suits, my first suits were from Sears.....now I buy them at KMART  8)  )

Yes, I do think the military uniform is an important aspect of CAP, both for its historic connotations, and for our current relationship with our parent service.  I guess I'm just radical that way. 

Quote from: mikeylikey on February 06, 2008, 10:34:14 PMThat is our culture though.  The guy wearing the Prada suit at IBM  will be noticed over the guy wearing the Sears special.  (nothing wrong with Sears suits, my first suits were from Sears.....now I buy them at KMART  8)  )

You own a suit?

I guess maybe I should consider one. Maybe after I get back from the sandbox. No sense rushing in to things...


;D

^ You Sir need to get one of those Iraqi/Afgh tailors to build you a suit.  They run super cheap over there.  Best 75 bucks I ever spent on a suit. 

And for the record, I am more of a sweatshirt to work kind of guy.  Most days you will find me in my PT clothes well into 1500.  I teach in them, I eat lunch in them, I play on CAPTALK in them.  The only time I actually put ACU's on or a suit is when the Battalion Commander calls me up to his Office.  I find ROTC Land to be super lax, and I set the example that "Officers deserve to be comfortable all day long"  ;D

Quote from: Hawk200 on February 07, 2008, 03:43:35 AM

Quote from: mikeylikey on February 06, 2008, 10:34:14 PMThat is our culture though.  The guy wearing the Prada suit at IBM  will be noticed over the guy wearing the Sears special.  (nothing wrong with Sears suits, my first suits were from Sears.....now I buy them at KMART  8)  )

You own a suit?

I guess maybe I should consider one. Maybe after I get back from the sandbox. No sense rushing in to things...


;D

When are you headed over and in what MOS?

Quote from: SARMedTech on February 07, 2008, 07:28:37 AM
When are you headed over and in what MOS?

In a few months.

MOS is 15T, Blackhawk mechanic. In training to be a crewcheif, but most likely will just be a door gunner. Hours of boredom, moments of sheer terror. At least we'll be getting those new cooling vests. From what I understand, all the water you drink you end up sweating out.

Upside is that the money I make will make college bills a lot easier.

Quote from: Hawk200 on February 07, 2008, 05:01:53 PM

Quote from: SARMedTech on February 07, 2008, 07:28:37 AM
When are you headed over and in what MOS?

From what I understand, all the water you drink you end up sweating out.

Unless your in the AF.....then you work and live and eat in Air Conditioning ALL DAY LONG.  How jealous I was!

I'm breaking my own rule of getting involved in online uniform discussions.

I was all about the ABU.  Now that I've seen it in person, a lot, I'm not so sure.  It's pretty hard on the eyes, and at the most basic level - the pants almost never match the blouse.  I have seen hundreds of Airman wearing this outfit, and in almost every case they have the "pink" pants and the "green" blouse, or vice versa.  Now I know everyone on this board would be sure to match tops and bottoms when making a purchase - I'm not sure that would apply to the entire organization.

Now on to my real point.  I am a dyed in the wool USAF supporter.  It's a family thing - if the USAF wanted me to sling chow to help them out, I probably would.  I missed my chance to actually join the AF so this is my way of serving - whether they see it that way or not.  All that being said, I think as an organization, we would come a long way if we simply had a uniform look.

I have yet to see a uniform that I would wear that I thought would meet those needs.

This is the one.

It still keeps with a "military" look (not a prison convict, grounds keeper, gum chewing Willy Wonka Character).  It is functional - something I think the ABU wouldn't be.  It's not camouflage, and it's not someone elses.  Hell, we could probably even apply those "subdued" tapes and badges everyone seems to be so interested in.  This is the FIRST uniform proposal that I think makes sense.

As for the cost.  Suck it up people - everything in this organization costs money.

^^What he said.  Several people in my squadron have mix-matched ABU top/bottoms and we ALL have nametapes that look like they were made for a different color ABU.  Instead of tan as one of the colors, our nametapes have a darker, almost brown, color.  And yes, it looks like crap.

Best part of my ABUs is the Oakley hot weather tan boots I wear with them.  I already cut out the inside liner/pocket that doubled the already very thick material. 

ABU = I don't like.

9 months have gone by.  I am just curious if anyone would change their vote.  I unlocked the poll so you can add or change your vote.

Still makes seance to me.

Anyone, anyone.....

 Well you also have to ask why we wear camouflage anyway. When you doing SAR or Disaster Relief, don't you want to be seen? I mean, the whole purpose for camouflage was to not be seen in combat. We don't do combat in CAP (well, maybe on these boards sometimes).

 I believe the required orange vest resolves the visibility problem on GT missions.

 I know the orange vest remedies the uniform as far as visibility, but why did they choose a uniform that's camouflage instead of something else?

I imagine the main motivator for using camo is the surplus availability issue. I like Stonewall's version; reminds me of my fav - the OD perm press fatigues.  I hated the cotton fatigues, and I put off wearing BDU's as long as I could.

 I think the OD's are great too. I was just curious as to why they chose the camouflage. But, the surplus issue makes sense (there's positively a lot of 'em)...thanks!

Quote from: Rob Sherlin on November 13, 2008, 05:12:32 PM
I think the OD's are great too. I was just curious as to why they chose the camouflage. But, the surplus issue makes sense (there's positively a lot of 'em)...thanks!

It's really quite simple. It's what the Air Force wears.

Quote from: davidsinn on November 13, 2008, 05:32:01 PM

Quote from: Rob Sherlin on November 13, 2008, 05:12:32 PM
I think the OD's are great too. I was just curious as to why they chose the camouflage. But, the surplus issue makes sense (there's positively a lot of 'em)...thanks!

It's really quite simple. It's what the Air Force wears.

Exactly, but at the same time the Surplus issue is also key.  Right now while the Air Force does still wear some BDU's the ABU is becoming the standard choice.   As it will be for us down the road.  But when the BDU came out we didn't get that right away, it went back to the surplus issue of the OD Uniforms. 

Quote from: Angus on November 13, 2008, 06:44:40 PM
Exactly, but at the same time the Surplus issue is also key.  Right now while the Air Force does still wear some BDU's the ABU is becoming the standard choice.   As it will be for us down the road.  But when the BDU came out we didn't get that right away, it went back to the surplus issue of the OD Uniforms. 

There are enough BDU in DRMS/DRMO and such to last a long, long time! 

As such these discussions are kind of moot.  Keep the BDU and BBDU.  I don't see any compelling arguments to change this.

Quote from: A.Member on November 13, 2008, 07:27:20 PM
There are enough BDU in DRMS/DRMO and such to last a long, long time! 

Yeah, I love getting DRMO used BDUs with old CMSgt rank marks on the sleeves or old army uniforms with combat patches.  Those are great.

Quote from: Stonewall on November 13, 2008, 08:56:21 PM

Quote from: A.Member on November 13, 2008, 07:27:20 PM
There are enough BDU in DRMS/DRMO and such to last a long, long time! 

Yeah, I love getting DRMO used BDUs with old CMSgt rank marks on the sleeves or old army uniforms with combat patches.  Those are great.

I sense some sarcasm

Quote from: Stonewall on November 13, 2008, 08:56:21 PM

Quote from: A.Member on November 13, 2008, 07:27:20 PM
There are enough BDU in DRMS/DRMO and such to last a long, long time! 

Yeah, I love getting DRMO used BDUs with old CMSgt rank marks on the sleeves or old army uniforms with combat patches.  Those are great.

LOL!  Hey, you get what you pay for.  :)   Besides "those" ones are for the cadets. ;)  And I think you're looking at it all wrong.  See, you remove the patches, then sell them on e-bay (because who doesn't love patches) at a ridiculously inflated price, and pay for all your other squadron activities. ;)

Are BDUs from DRMO still restricted?

Quote from: MIKE on November 14, 2008, 03:51:05 AM
Are BDUs from DRMO still restricted?

Until congress changes the law, yes.

A provision in the FY 2007 DOD authorization bill restricted distribution of military uniforms from DRMO to Department of Defense activities only. CAP is not considered to be a part of the Department of Defense.

Quote from: PHall on November 15, 2008, 03:31:31 AM

Quote from: MIKE on November 14, 2008, 03:51:05 AM
Are BDUs from DRMO still restricted?

Until congress changes the law, yes.

A provision in the FY 2007 DOD authorization bill restricted distribution of military uniforms from DRMO to Department of Defense activities only. CAP is not considered to be a part of the Department of Defense.

I don't believe that's true.  According to our Wing supply officer we're still getting them on a regular basis through DRMS/DMRO.   

I just saw this post for the first time.  I have been lurking here a bit and see that uniforms are a topic that tend to flare up like a nasty bout of hemorrhoids around here...   That being said I will give my take on the uniform laid out on page 1 of this topic.  I like it very much.    I was a CAP member back in the mid - late 80's for a short period of time.   I then moved on to a million other things in life to include a family and a career.   I recently turned 36 and have had both of my sons involved in Scouting.   Scouting, though a good program is really only as good as the leadership.  My sons are starting to tire of doing the same things over and over and have mentioned on a couple of occasions of quitting of the scout program and doing something else.   This kind of made me cringe as I do like having them active in an organization that is proud to promote both God AND Country.    It hit me one day as I was driving by my local airport and saw a CAP plane behind the fence line that maybe this might be a good alternative.  Although I had never taken it as serious as I wish I had as a kid maybe my boys might like to give it a try.

I Googled "CAP" , filled out an info request online and the next thing you know I was meeting with the local squadron commander on a meeting night.  Unfortunately my sons are a couple years shy of joining but it sparked an interest in me to join as a SM now.   When I mentioned CAP to a pilot friend of mine he spoke positive of the organization.  However my other colleagues having little to no experience with CAP laughed at the idea.  Upon speaking with them I realized that many of them A) have no idea what CAP is all about and B) see adults in uniforms that emulate the military and it conjures up stereotypes of creamers, wannabes and weirdos.  (some of their words not mine  :)  )  I work in law enforcement and with a serious group as smart asses so I realized I had to take that into account with the response I received.

I then ran it by a couple of friends that are active duty Guard members...  Surprisingly one of them (who's office is right across the street from where this CAP squad meets)  smirked at the idea of me joining and really had zero concept of CAP having any real world mission other than driving and marching cadets around.  The other was aware of the S&R they did but was rather opinionated with the fact that CAP wears rank that is identical to as she put it... "real officers".   I did not even attempt to argue her point because.. well I guess you just have to know her - there was no point in trying.

Personally I never really had an opinion on CAP since I was a kid.  Never really gave it any thought or cared if the CAP SM's wore rank and how they dressed.  It was really just completely off my radar.    As a very new SMWOG I have decided that  will wear whatever I am told and how the regs tell me to wear it.   I must admit that having uniforms that so closely resemble the military members in my community almost prevented me from joining up.  Its no disrespect to them - exactly the opposite.  I love these Guardsman and thank them every chance I can.  The fact is it made me feel as though I was going to play "dress up" -  Its just the my personal preference is strongly towards a uniform that strongly sets us APART from looking like a Soldier or Airman.   Upon seeing the Corporate Uniform and Polo Shirts I realized that there was another option  (My shields are now UP).   

Wearing the uniforms of the armed services is a privilege an an honor.   Initially I almost felt that purchasing and wearing a uniform so close in resemblance to the AF or Army (in the case of the BDU's)was almost like playing dress up.  I would much prefer a BDU setup that is distinctive and functional like the one that started this thread. 

I joined CAP for several different reasons.  One of which was the fact that I was seeking some sort of volunteer organization to give my time and effort.  Couple that with my interest in aviation as well as 2 sons who I would like to see join it seemed a good fit.  I still consider myself an outsider with CAP as I am so new but often we have a different perspective on things that seasoned members might not notice.  I can tell you that though the uniforms are very nice (I think so anyway) they do FAIL to set us apart enough (in my opinion) that it can give folks the wrong idea of what we do or who we are. 

I think that a distinctive solid color BDU style uniform like Stonewall posted here is a fantastic idea.  No service member or Veteran will mistake you for an an Army or Air Force Officer (rank)  (embarrassing for both IMO), I think CAP should be proud to be CAP no just the Aux of the USAF.  We can still be an Aux without having to look like the AF right?  CAP should be proud to be CAP - there is a lot to be proud of. 

Honestly I think CAP needs some serious help in the Public Relations department.  For an organization as bit and as storied as it is the majority of folks have no idea what we are, who we are or what it is we do.   Wearing uniforms that so closely resemble the "real thing" cannot help matters at all...   

Quote from: jgalego on November 15, 2008, 09:16:25 PM
,serious snippage
Honestly I think CAP needs some serious help in the Public Relations department.  For an organization as bit and as storied as it is the majority of folks have no idea what we are, who we are or what it is we do.   Wearing uniforms that so closely resemble the "real thing" cannot help matters at all...   

You're preaching to the choir here. That topic generates almost as much concern as uniforms.

CAP has the blessing of the Air Force when it comes to wearing their uniform, and it is something that could be taken away if they felt it was warranted. There is nothing shameful, or 'dress up' about wearing that uniform, and it is a tremendous honor to be granted permission to do so.

Those that balk about CAP 'playing Air Force' have no idea about what CAP does, or the extent we do it to. I have found that many those that do know CAP well don't have an issue with it.

The uniform CAP wears on it's back is not the source of our PR problems, it is our general lack of direction, and a failure of local units to promote themselves well.

That being said, I think we should stick with BDUs for now, and pick up the ABU when the AF says we can. CAP is the Auxiliary of the Air Force, we should be as in-line with our parent service as possible, not do everything we can to distance ourselves. I think we need to drastically reduce the number of uniform combos, but I still believe we should have the military uniform, as well as ONE equivalent corporate uniform.

Getting rid of = CSU or White and Greys/Blazer
                         Utility Jumpsuit
                         
So we would have = Blues - CSU or White and Greys
                                 Service Dress - Blazer
                                 BDUs - BBDUs
                                 Green FDU - Blue FDU
                                 
I also think wear of the Golf Shirt should be restricted to new members, and certain informal situations for more experienced members. I'm sure it has it's uses, but I have always seen it more as a way to avoid a uniform, than actually a uniform.

Go ahead, flame me.

  DC I agree almost completely with you. Especially about the golf shirt.