HWSNBN and Harwell

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Alright, I accept correction on the FOIA issue...but as far as the reason goes, there are often differences between an "official" statement and behind-the-scenes reasons leading to the official statement.  I still stand by what so many of my fellow CAP officers told me at the time.  It may be a more "where there's smoke there's fire" issue but they had no reason to lie to me, or to anyone else.

Cindi:  The RAF and its offshoots (RCAF, RAAF, RNZAF) have always had very sharp-looking uniforms, as well as ranks that are much better in an aviation setting (Flight Sergeant, Pilot Officer, Squadron Leader, Wing Commander, Air Commodore etc).

I prefer the Aussie version "midnight blue:"


Air Marshal (three-star General equivalent) Geoff Brown, AO, Chief of Air Force, RAAF

However...as we discovered with the CSU and then the latest 39-1, we are never going to have a "distinctive" uniform that is military-style in cut (General Courter's PowerPoint specifically stated that the corporate uniforms do not exist to provide a military-styled alternative), nor any shade of blue in colour.  My opinion is that National is afraid that any shade of blue will tick off the Air Force, so they do not even want to ask.

My own preference would be something approximating the colour of what the German Luftwaffe wears.



This was their early uniform, no longer worn (they have a single-breasted one now):



but no way would such a suggestion make it past Wing, or even Group, level.

The status quo is set in stone, grey stone, I fear.

[abdsp51]

Believe what you want it's hearsay.  I've provided more solid evidence to the issue than you have, and once I hear back from my FOIA that will be posted as well.  You have seen traffic on it and I'll take solid documentation over hearsay any day.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Believe what you want it's hearsay.  I've provided more solid evidence to the issue than you have, and once I hear back from my FOIA that will be posted as well.  You have seen traffic on it and I'll take solid documentation over hearsay any day.

Why do you have a vested interest in "proving" this?

I'm done with the issue for my part.  Anything else is just a urinating contest, and I don't do those.

[abdsp51]

I have a vested interest in making sure that facts and the truth are stated and not hearsay or rumors.  You and a few others specifically you have been adamant about making sure that a falsity stays alive, again you have no proof that the boards were punitive in nature outside of hearsay.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I have a vested interest in making sure that facts and the truth are stated and not hearsay or rumors.  You and a few others specifically you have been adamant about making sure that a falsity stays alive, again you have no proof that the boards were punitive in nature outside of hearsay.

OK, old son.

[Cindi]

Alright, I accept correction on the FOIA issue...but as far as the reason goes, there are often differences between an "official" statement and behind-the-scenes reasons leading to the official statement.  I still stand by what so many of my fellow CAP officers told me at the time.  It may be a more "where there's smoke there's fire" issue but they had no reason to lie to me, or to anyone else.

Cindi:  The RAF and its offshoots (RCAF, RAAF, RNZAF) have always had very sharp-looking uniforms, as well as ranks that are much better in an aviation setting (Flight Sergeant, Pilot Officer, Squadron Leader, Wing Commander, Air Commodore etc).

I prefer the Aussie version "midnight blue:"


Air Marshal (three-star General equivalent) Geoff Brown, AO, Chief of Air Force, RAAF

However...as we discovered with the CSU and then the latest 39-1, we are never going to have a "distinctive" uniform that is military-style in cut (General Courter's PowerPoint specifically stated that the corporate uniforms do not exist to provide a military-styled alternative), nor any shade of blue in colour.  My opinion is that National is afraid that any shade of blue will tick off the Air Force, so they do not even want to ask.

My own preference would be something approximating the colour of what the German Luftwaffe wears.



This was their early uniform, no longer worn (they have a single-breasted one now):



but no way would such a suggestion make it past Wing, or even Group, level.

The status quo is set in stone, grey stone, I fear.

Excellent work CyBorg! Uniform decisions, changes to the rank structure, etc. all  can be handled by Executive Order when I become your new Air Commodore (formerly known as National Commander).   

[NIN]

No sir I am not saying by any means that is what the membership wanted.  I am saying that its a long standing wives tail that Harwell is the reason for the switch.  What I have collected otherwise says something different.  There very well maybe documentation but the question is has anyone truly bothered putting for the effort to dig and ask?

Since all this occurred "PI" (Pre Internet) our connectivity to people 'in the know' was considerably less.

Since you seem to like the term so much: BLUF: I -was- in CAP back then, and the reason we were *always* given for the switcheroo was "E. E. Harwell".  And we had little or no independent means to confirm this.

you said "What I have collected otherwise says something different."

So, please, enlighten up all with your vast knowledge that you have collected that says "something different."

I'm all ears, please provide me some proof that the reason we switched to maroon shoulder marks was something other than the USAF being bent out of shape at "E. E. Harwell".

Do you have proof in the form of documentation, or just a hunch that it wasn't E. E. Harwell?

Was it:

• someone wanted to boost sales at the Bookstore;
• the guy who ordered things for the Bookstore was actually color blind and never noticed the difference;
• UFOs;
• The ghost of Tooey Spaatz;

or  maybe even




?

[abdsp51]

No sir I am not saying by any means that is what the membership wanted.  I am saying that its a long standing wives tail that Harwell is the reason for the switch.  What I have collected otherwise says something different.  There very well maybe documentation but the question is has anyone truly bothered putting for the effort to dig and ask?

Since all this occurred "PI" (Pre Internet) our connectivity to people 'in the know' was considerably less.

Since you seem to like the term so much: BLUF: I -was- in CAP back then, and the reason we were *always* given for the switcheroo was "E. E. Harwell".  And we had little or no independent means to confirm this.

you said "What I have collected otherwise says something different."

So, please, enlighten up all with your vast knowledge that you have collected that says "something different."

I'm all ears, please provide me some proof that the reason we switched to maroon shoulder marks was something other than the USAF being bent out of shape at "E. E. Harwell".

Do you have proof in the form of documentation, or just a hunch that it wasn't E. E. Harwell?

Was it:

• someone wanted to boost sales at the Bookstore;
• the guy who ordered things for the Bookstore was actually color blind and never noticed the difference;
• UFOs;
• The ghost of Tooey Spaatz;

or  maybe even




?

I emailed NHQ about it and received a response and I have also submitted an FOIA for any and all information relating to it.  The email I have so far says that the change came about as a recommendation of an audit done in 89. 

[NIN]

So lets see it.

What audit? Who did the audit? HAF? CAP-USAF? 

An email from NHQ, sorry to say, reflecting an action that took place 25 years ago, is not what I would call "conclusive."

[abdsp51]

So lets see it.

What audit? Who did the audit? HAF? CAP-USAF? 

An email from NHQ, sorry to say, reflecting an action that took place 25 years ago, is not what I would call "conclusive."

The information has been requested via FOIA. The audit was done by the AF IG and SECAF directed a review of CAP as a result of the findings.  The email is actually posted in this thread.

[a2capt]

No, I expect NHQ to come up with something like that. I wouldn't expect them to say "they did that because the Air Force had a fit". But to swallow the pill and say "yup, we chose that awful color"? Wow.

That's really taking one for the team. They've never done that since then. Who in their right mind would have come up with that? Perhaps a sarcastic response that ultimately backfired.

"not fully accepted" is right.

[MSG Mac]

Alright, I accept correction on the FOIA issue...but as far as the reason goes, there are often differences between an "official" statement and behind-the-scenes reasons leading to the official statement.  I still stand by what so many of my fellow CAP officers told me at the time.  It may be a more "where there's smoke there's fire" issue but they had no reason to lie to me, or to anyone else.

Cindi:  The RAF and its offshoots (RCAF, RAAF, RNZAF) have always had very sharp-looking uniforms, as well as ranks that are much better in an aviation setting (Flight Sergeant, Pilot Officer, Squadron Leader, Wing Commander, Air Commodore etc).

I prefer the Aussie version "midnight blue:"


Air Marshal (three-star General equivalent) Geoff Brown, AO, Chief of Air Force, RAAF

However...as we discovered with the CSU and then the latest 39-1, we are never going to have a "distinctive" uniform that is military-style in cut (General Courter's PowerPoint specifically stated that the corporate uniforms do not exist to provide a military-styled alternative), nor any shade of blue in colour.  My opinion is that National is afraid that any shade of blue will tick off the Air Force, so they do not even want to ask.

My own preference would be something approximating the colour of what the German Luftwaffe wears.



This was their early uniform, no longer worn (they have a single-breasted one now):



but no way would such a suggestion make it past Wing, or even Group, level.

The status quo is set in stone, grey stone, I fear.

Excellent work CyBorg! Uniform decisions, changes to the rank structure, etc. all  can be handled by Executive Order when I become your new Air Commodore (formerly known as National Commander).   

Air Commodore is a 1 star, wouldn't you rather be an Air Vice Marshal? 2 stars

[NIN]

So lets see it.

What audit? Who did the audit? HAF? CAP-USAF? 

An email from NHQ, sorry to say, reflecting an action that took place 25 years ago, is not what I would call "conclusive."

The information has been requested via FOIA. The audit was done by the AF IG and SECAF directed a review of CAP as a result of the findings.  The email is actually posted in this thread.

My apologies for missing that. I see it now.

while I understand your zeal in quashing the hearsay, I had a serious doubt you'll find much more than an "official version" of events in an FOIA request. Why might the SECAF have decided "You know, that functional inspection... We should just do a broad area review on CAP, you know, to be sure.."?

Unless there were reasons.  The non-official version could have been a doorway conversation that went like this:  "Jerry, I'm sending you down to Maxwell to do a broad review of the CAP.  After that whole Harwell thing, I want a closer look at these people."

[Cindi]

Alright, I accept correction on the FOIA issue...but as far as the reason goes, there are often differences between an "official" statement and behind-the-scenes reasons leading to the official statement.  I still stand by what so many of my fellow CAP officers told me at the time.  It may be a more "where there's smoke there's fire" issue but they had no reason to lie to me, or to anyone else.

Cindi:  The RAF and its offshoots (RCAF, RAAF, RNZAF) have always had very sharp-looking uniforms, as well as ranks that are much better in an aviation setting (Flight Sergeant, Pilot Officer, Squadron Leader, Wing Commander, Air Commodore etc).

I prefer the Aussie version "midnight blue:"


Air Marshal (three-star General equivalent) Geoff Brown, AO, Chief of Air Force, RAAF

However...as we discovered with the CSU and then the latest 39-1, we are never going to have a "distinctive" uniform that is military-style in cut (General Courter's PowerPoint specifically stated that the corporate uniforms do not exist to provide a military-styled alternative), nor any shade of blue in colour.  My opinion is that National is afraid that any shade of blue will tick off the Air Force, so they do not even want to ask.

My own preference would be something approximating the colour of what the German Luftwaffe wears.



This was their early uniform, no longer worn (they have a single-breasted one now):



but no way would such a suggestion make it past Wing, or even Group, level.

The status quo is set in stone, grey stone, I fear.

Excellent work CyBorg! Uniform decisions, changes to the rank structure, etc. all  can be handled by Executive Order when I become your new Air Commodore (formerly known as National Commander).   

Air Commodore is a 1 star, wouldn't you rather be an Air Vice Marshal? 2 stars

Speaking of grades, I was thinking Marshal of the CAP (five stars) after my probationary period, just skipping Air Vice-Marshal (2 stars), Air Marshal (3 stars) and Air Chief Marshal (4 stars). Baby steps, baby steps!



We can do this!: For awhile there I was worried that this would not turn into a uniform thread!

[abdsp51]

My apologies for missing that. I see it now.

while I understand your zeal in quashing the hearsay, I had a serious doubt you'll find much more than an "official version" of events in an FOIA request. Why might the SECAF have decided "You know, that functional inspection... We should just do a broad area review on CAP, you know, to be sure.."?

Unless there were reasons.  The non-official version could have been a doorway conversation that went like this:  "Jerry, I'm sending you down to Maxwell to do a broad review of the CAP.  After that whole Harwell thing, I want a closer look at these people."

It's quite possible, however I am not buying that Harwell is the sole reason for the change.  An old saying that I have always strive to do things by "Trust but verify".  I'm not buying the hearsay and really without something solid that's all it is is hearsay.  How many can honestly say they have dug into this at all? 

[Panache]

This was an email I received back from NHQ last year on this topic in response to my request.  I have submitted a FOIA request as well on this topic requesting any and all documentation on this.  This was a reply given:

I apologize for the delay in responding to your recent question.  As a
result of an AF IG Functional Management Inspection in 1989, the
Secretary of the Air Force directed a Broad Area Review of the CAP
program in February 1990.  When the final report was received one of the
findings was that the CAP uniform should be more distinctive from the
Air Force uniform.  CAP was given the opportunity to propose a
distinctive change and a proposal was submitted to the Air Force
requesting permission to use a maroon epaulet on the AF-style shirts and
blouses and a smaller maroon circlet to be worn with the metal grade on
the service coat.  The Air Force disapproved the wear of the circlet but
approved the wear of the maroon epaulet on both the shirts and service
coat in October 1990.  The maroon epaulet was not fully accepted by CAP
and in 1995 CAP requested a change of color from maroon to gray which
the AF subsequently approved.

So... Harwell decides to self-promote himself to MJ in 1987, angering the Air Force Chief of Staff.  After an "audit" (ordered by who?) it was found that CAP uniforms needed to be more "more distinctive" in 1990.  And so enters the maroon epaulets.  I'm sure the two have absolutely nothing to do with each other.  Not at all.

[a2capt]

Here's your plane, totally renewable fuel source, too.

[Eclipse]

So... Harwell decides to self-promote himself to MJ in 1987, angering the Air Force Chief of Staff.  After an "audit" (ordered by who?) it was found that CAP uniforms needed to be more "more distinctive" in 1990.  And so enters the maroon epaulets.  I'm sure the two have absolutely nothing to do with each other.  Not at all.

A good theory, but fails when you consider it would have been a lot easier to just take his second star back then
to redo all the uniforms.

He kept the second star.

"...a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma..."

[Cindi]

Here's your plane, totally renewable fuel source, too.

Thanks, but I am already scheduled to pick up a used Boeing 777 in southern Kazakhstan next week. 

[Panache]

So... Harwell decides to self-promote himself to MJ in 1987, angering the Air Force Chief of Staff.  After an "audit" (ordered by who?) it was found that CAP uniforms needed to be more "more distinctive" in 1990.  And so enters the maroon epaulets.  I'm sure the two have absolutely nothing to do with each other.  Not at all.

A good theory, but fails when you consider it would have been a lot easier to just take his second star back then
to redo all the uniforms.

He kept the second star.

"...a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma..."

Not when the second star was already approved by the the Assistant Secretary of the Air Force and the Secretary of the Air Force.

Now, jerking us around with the uniforms would easily be doable by the Chief of Staff of the Air Force at the time who, incidentally, was the one who was angered.