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NCO

Started by pantera3110, March 09, 2015, 03:26:08 PM

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SarDragon

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on April 17, 2015, 11:52:52 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on April 17, 2015, 05:05:17 AM
People who earned chevrons were not required to remove them. That insignia was permitted for wear until they, for whatever reason, left CAP. There were just no more promotions available.

I looked through all but one of the uni regs from 1972 on, and it doesn't look like they were every totally removed from use. The one I'm missing is after NCOs were reinstated.

When you say they didn't have to remove the chevrons, are you basing that on the uniform manual or the appointment regulation? I can easily picture the uniform manual retaining the illustrations and instructions for wearing them, due to sync differences.

I really don't recall seeing ANY NCOs from 1972 until they were brought back, but I do remember seeing former NCOs.
Various versions of the 39-1, below, state that NCO chevrons may be worn, if earned prior to July 1972, both in the text and the illustrations.
 
1 June 1987
1 June 1985
1 January 1983
1 April 1980
1 January 1977
18 February 1970
What is your distinction between NCOs and former NCOs?
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: SarDragon on April 18, 2015, 01:57:53 AM
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on April 17, 2015, 11:52:52 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on April 17, 2015, 05:05:17 AM
People who earned chevrons were not required to remove them. That insignia was permitted for wear until they, for whatever reason, left CAP. There were just no more promotions available.

I looked through all but one of the uni regs from 1972 on, and it doesn't look like they were every totally removed from use. The one I'm missing is after NCOs were reinstated.

When you say they didn't have to remove the chevrons, are you basing that on the uniform manual or the appointment regulation? I can easily picture the uniform manual retaining the illustrations and instructions for wearing them, due to sync differences.

I really don't recall seeing ANY NCOs from 1972 until they were brought back, but I do remember seeing former NCOs.
Various versions of the 39-1, below, state that NCO chevrons may be worn, if earned prior to July 1972, both in the text and the illustrations.
 
1 June 1987
1 June 1985
1 January 1983
1 April 1980
1 January 1977
18 February 1970
What is your distinction between NCOs and former NCOs?

Interesting. The "prior to 1972" NCOs I knew either quit or became officers. I absolutely don't remember any that kept stripes.

By NCOs distinguished from former NCOs, I was referring to officers who stared as NCOs.
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

SarDragon

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on April 18, 2015, 04:09:10 AM
Interesting. The "prior to 1972" NCOs I knew either quit or became officers. I absolutely don't remember any that kept stripes.

I'm sure that was the case for most of that group of NCOs. I only knew a couple WIWAC. The units I was in when I first became a SM didn't have any NCOs.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

ZigZag911

WIWAC (1970-1973) the only NCOs I ever saw were under-21 years old seniors who joined too late to be cadets generally wearing a ridiculous number of stripes for their age (don't recall seeing anyone lower than MSgt!), patiently waiting to get TIG for Warrant Officer or turn 21 and become a 2 Lt.

Shuman 14

Quote from: Panache on April 17, 2015, 07:38:33 AM
Quote from: ProdigalJim on April 16, 2015, 12:53:04 PM
As much as many of us don't want to believe it, I think the unspoken but real conflict the AF has with us as "officers" is that often we don't share the same cultural underpinning. Look at LSTHiker's post with the degree stats: the fewer experiences we have in common with AF officers, the less likely we are to be accepted as peers...and when we wear blues with officer grade on them, we are outwardly claiming, at some level, that we're "peers."

Until that point when they start paying CAP officers and give them authority and responsibilities under UCMJ, CAP officers won't be close to being peers with AF officers, no matter how many degrees CAP officers have.

So, basically, never.

Sad that you have such a low opinion of yourself and CAP.  :-\
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Shuman 14

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on April 17, 2015, 11:56:47 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on April 17, 2015, 03:43:09 PM
Quote from: Av8tion on April 17, 2015, 12:51:49 PM


If college degrees ever become a requirement for CAP officership (which isn't very likely) current CAP officers will be exempt and will continue through their career path as an officer.


That would make for an outstanding atmosphere.  Us vs Them.  Those of us who had to have degrees and then theres you dummies over there who were grandfathered in.  Don't think there wont be a way for the "new breed" to set themselves apart from the old timers.  its just how it works.  You cant have two sets of criteria for officer-ship.  Those who were required to have the higher standard WILL separate themselves.

Don't we have that already, sorting people by trouser color?

;D
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Storm Chaser

Quote from: shuman14 on April 20, 2015, 12:16:48 PM
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on April 17, 2015, 11:56:47 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on April 17, 2015, 03:43:09 PM
Quote from: Av8tion on April 17, 2015, 12:51:49 PM


If college degrees ever become a requirement for CAP officership (which isn't very likely) current CAP officers will be exempt and will continue through their career path as an officer.


That would make for an outstanding atmosphere.  Us vs Them.  Those of us who had to have degrees and then theres you dummies over there who were grandfathered in.  Don't think there wont be a way for the "new breed" to set themselves apart from the old timers.  its just how it works.  You cant have two sets of criteria for officer-ship.  Those who were required to have the higher standard WILL separate themselves.

Don't we have that already, sorting people by trouser color?

;D

And by status, active vs. patron.  >:D

Shuman 14

Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Flying Pig

Just wear Airline style epaulets.  1-4 stripes for PD levels.  Group staff, Wing Staff and National Staff get ranks corresponding with positions.   Done. 

vorteks

Quote from: Flying Pig on April 20, 2015, 02:54:41 PM
Just wear Airline style epaulets.  1-4 stripes for PD levels.  Group staff, Wing Staff and National Staff get ranks corresponding with positions.   Done.

And you could address them as "SMWGI, SMWGII, SMWGIII, SMWGIIII...

jeders

Some interesting notes from the CAP Command Chief who did a presentation at the TXWG conference this past weekend. Just thought I'd throw these out there for the wolves.

Apparently General Vazquez isn't as big of a fan of this new program as his predecessor was. According to Col Chief, there will not be any non-prior service NCOs nor will there be ANY degree requirements for officers so long as Gen Vazquez is in charge. On the one point, CAP simply doesn't have the resources to train up NCOs who haven't been NCOs any the military. On the other point, we are all volunteers, and that's what really matters.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

AirAux

There you have it, right out of the horses mouth, at least for what, 2 more years???  Do you all remember when we had the Iowa plan?  Where we were going to staart sending new members for six months of OCS?  Weekends and stuff?  That was quite a scare for a while... 

Luis R. Ramos

#292
That is not from the Horse's Mouth.

It is from the Bull's Mouth that heard it from the Sheep's Mouth that was on the barn with him. Who supposedly Heard the Horse in The Master Farm way over there...

:P
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

PHall

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on April 20, 2015, 04:21:15 PM
That is not from the Horse's Mouth.

It is from the Bull's Mouth that heard it from the Sheep's Mouth that was on the barn with him. Who supposedly Heard the Horse in The Master Farm way over there...

:P

You could at least attribute this to Mr Orwell... ::)

Shuman 14

Quote from: PHall on April 20, 2015, 04:51:18 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on April 20, 2015, 04:21:15 PM
That is not from the Horse's Mouth.

It is from the Bull's Mouth that heard it from the Sheep's Mouth that was on the barn with him. Who supposedly Heard the Horse in The Master Farm way over there...

:P

You could at least attribute this to Mr Orwell... ::)

The CAP members in Blue pants are more equal than others.  ;)
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

PHall

Quote from: shuman14 on April 20, 2015, 05:30:36 PM
Quote from: PHall on April 20, 2015, 04:51:18 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on April 20, 2015, 04:21:15 PM
That is not from the Horse's Mouth.

It is from the Bull's Mouth that heard it from the Sheep's Mouth that was on the barn with him. Who supposedly Heard the Horse in The Master Farm way over there...

:P

You could at least attribute this to Mr Orwell... ::)

The CAP members in Blue pants are more equal than others.  ;)

So sayeth the Patron member who doesn't wear any pants!   >:D

JeffDG

Quote from: PHall on April 20, 2015, 05:52:06 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on April 20, 2015, 05:30:36 PM
Quote from: PHall on April 20, 2015, 04:51:18 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on April 20, 2015, 04:21:15 PM
That is not from the Horse's Mouth.

It is from the Bull's Mouth that heard it from the Sheep's Mouth that was on the barn with him. Who supposedly Heard the Horse in The Master Farm way over there...

:P

You could at least attribute this to Mr Orwell... ::)

The CAP members in Blue pants are more equal than others.  ;)

So sayeth the Patron member who doesn't wear any pants!   >:D

TOO MUCH INFORMATION

JeffDG

Quote from: jeders on April 20, 2015, 03:39:52 PM
Apparently General Vazquez isn't as big of a fan of this new program as his predecessor was.

Which confirms the suspicion that arose from the fact that the update to the regs with respect to NCOs was clearly half-done when it was released mere days before the change of command.  As an example of the "half-done" was the fact that to be promoted to senior NCO roles, you need to hold jobs which are in no way defined as to their duties, responsibilities, etc.

FW

Sounds like things are getting back to "normalcy" down at Maxwell... A somewhat quiet death to this program would seem to be in order, considering the Commander's view on the subject.  Of course, things will probably change in another 2 1/2 years. ;)

PHall

I'm still holding to 2 years for this program to die.