NCO

[JayT]

The anti-college and anti intellectualism attitudes I've seen expressed here by some "officers" is sickening. I hope you're all providing a better example and better role model to your cadets. Many people here can't wait to pound their chests and shout from the mountaintops about how important CAP is to the Air Force, but when a proposal to align its structure and promotion system to better mirror the organization who's uniform many people so enjoy wearing is made, nobody seems to want to loose their earned grade because "I'm a captain, and I don't need no fancy degree to make me that way."

[LSThiker]

Excellent words, Ned.

Ditto for Harry Truman and Abe Lincoln.

Yes it would be interesting to tell Harry Truman and Abe Lincoln they could not be CAP officers.  Although, I am pretty sure, not having a pulse would be the first disqualifier in that conversation

Although, Lincoln would not qualify as a CAP officer under today's standards as he did not have a high school education either.

[JeffDG]

Similarly, there is little doubt that many, many strong and capable American leaders have had little or no college education.  Telling Richard Branson, Michael Dell, or Bill Gates that they do not qualify to be a CAP officer would be an interesting conversation.  Ditto for Harry Truman and Abe Lincoln.

You disappoint me by not listing Justice Jackson who was a very well respected Supreme Court Justice (some claim that Roosevelt promised him the job of Chief Justice at one point), and prosecutor at the Nuremberg Tribunals, despite never having graduated from law school.

[JeffDG]

The anti-college and anti intellectualism attitudes I've seen expressed here by some "officers" is sickening. I hope you're all providing a better example and better role model to your cadets. Many people here can't wait to pound their chests and shout from the mountaintops about how important CAP is to the Air Force, but when a proposal to align its structure and promotion system to better mirror the organization who's uniform many people so enjoy wearing is made, nobody seems to want to loose their earned grade because "I'm a captain, and I don't need no fancy degree to make me that way."

So, precisely how would someone who has a BA in Underwater Basket Weaving make a superior officer to someone such as Sir Richard Branson?

It's not anti-college or anti-intellectualism.  It's elitism of the highest order to think that the only way to be intellectual is to go to college. 

[FW]

The "minimum qualifications for various CAP officer grades" is, and should be, an ongoing discussion for us.


Bottom line: we have an existing system.  Folks who want to change the status quo bear the burden of convincing the leadership of the wisdom and advantage of their position.

Very true.  If we want to raise the bar to be an "Officer" in CAP, our leadership should be convinced there is true value added in the process.  " Aligning ourselves with the Air Force" is fine, however is there some pressure from them to do so? What would be the benefits to changing the present system (more funding, increased mission availability)?  If there is to be a two tiered "NCO" and "Officer" cast system in CAP, will there be a real benefit to the different training paths?

I'm sorry, I just don't see it.  I've only been a member for 38 years.  Maybe I need more experience with CAP before I get it...

[arajca]

The anti-college and anti intellectualism attitudes I've seen expressed here by some "officers" is sickening. I hope you're all providing a better example and better role model to your cadets. Many people here can't wait to pound their chests and shout from the mountaintops about how important CAP is to the Air Force, but when a proposal to align its structure and promotion system to better mirror the organization who's uniform many people so enjoy wearing is made, nobody seems to want to loose their earned grade because "I'm a captain, and I don't need no fancy degree to make me that way."

The first thing that would need to be put forth is how that would improve CAP. That is still missing from the NCO program arguments. And the lack of how it would improve CAP is a major point of contention with a lot of the changes people bring forth that will affect the vast majority of the membership.

[JeffDG]

Yes it would be interesting to tell Harry Truman and Abe Lincoln they could not be CAP officers.  Although, I am pretty sure, not having a pulse would be the first disqualifier in that conversation

Can you cite a regulation requiring a pulse to be a member? 

[Storm Chaser]

The "minimum qualifications for various CAP officer grades" is, and should be, an ongoing discussion for us.

Any conversation about requiring an associate or higher degree for CAP officer status is always going to provoke sincere and strongly-held opinions.  Because, much like a typical CAP uniform discussion, it gets personal very quickly.

There are strong points to be made on each side.  Aligning ourselves more closely with our AF colleagues and raising our standards for officer status beyond a GED are certainly worthy arguments.

Similarly, there is little doubt that many, many strong and capable American leaders have had little or no college education.  Telling Richard Branson, Michael Dell, or Bill Gates that they do not qualify to be a CAP officer would be an interesting conversation.  Ditto for Harry Truman and Abe Lincoln.

Ultimately, -- just like with the h/w issues on AF-style uniforms --  I suspect folks will tend to line up on the issue based on their personal status.  Those with a degree with tend to agree that college should be required, and those without that particular piece of paper on the wall will tend to disagree.

And just like a uniform discussion, the responses will be heartfelt and passionate. 

(And just like the uniform discussion, no one will be able to convince anyone on the other side.)

Bottom line: we have an existing system.  Folks who want to change the status quo bear the burden of convincing the leadership of the wisdom and advantage of their position.

Well said. I agree 100%.

The anti-college and anti intellectualism attitudes I've seen expressed here by some "officers" is sickening. I hope you're all providing a better example and better role model to your cadets.

That us unfortunately true. One thing is to argue against requiring a college degree to become a CAP officer and another is to discredit the college education system and degrees. Do we not want our cadets to attend college if they want to and are able?

[Flying Pig]

The anti-college and anti intellectualism attitudes I've seen expressed here by some "officers" is sickening. I hope you're all providing a better example and better role model to your cadets. Many people here can't wait to pound their chests and shout from the mountaintops about how important CAP is to the Air Force, but when a proposal to align its structure and promotion system to better mirror the organization who's uniform many people so enjoy wearing is made, nobody seems to want to loose their earned grade because "I'm a captain, and I don't need no fancy degree to make me that way."

I was a captain..... And I don't need a fancy degree.  I do not push college nor does pushing college make you a roll model.  However I do have a lifetime of solid accomplishment and have made quite the career for myself  through vocational training.

[NCRblues]

I am sorry, but is anyone else confused as to why an "NCO committe" that was charged with retooling the "NCO corps" is talking about possibly changing "officer grade and requirements"??

Would that not be a job for a "officer and officer PD committe" made up of uh...Officers???

[Storm Chaser]

The anti-college and anti intellectualism attitudes I've seen expressed here by some "officers" is sickening. I hope you're all providing a better example and better role model to your cadets. Many people here can't wait to pound their chests and shout from the mountaintops about how important CAP is to the Air Force, but when a proposal to align its structure and promotion system to better mirror the organization who's uniform many people so enjoy wearing is made, nobody seems to want to loose their earned grade because "I'm a captain, and I don't need no fancy degree to make me that way."

So, precisely how would someone who has a BA in Underwater Basket Weaving make a superior officer to someone such as Sir Richard Branson?

It's not anti-college or anti-intellectualism.  It's elitism of the highest order to think that the only way to be intellectual is to go to college.

I wholeheartedly disagree. While I'm not a proponent of requiring a college degree to become a CAP officer, that is exactly what many are doing on this board; discrediting the need or benefit for a college education. While it's true that many successful individuals don't have college degrees, it's also true that many opportunities are not available to those who don't. I hope we're teaching that to our cadets so they can make informed decisions about their future when the time comes.

I know for a fact that my college education opened doors for me and I know first hand that it has for many others. I also know people who have been successful without a degree, but there's no denying that they didn't necessarily have the same opportunities available.

Whether education is required for CAP or not, many industries will continue to tighten their education requirements. It has nothing to do with "elitism", especially because almost everyone in this country has an opportunity to further their education in one way or another. I came from a poor family and can attest to that.

Education is a good thing. And while you can certainly learn on your own, there's no way to document that they way a degree can. A college education is meant to give you tools. It's not the end of all things, but it's certainly a good start for those who chose that path. There are certainly many opportunities available for those who do not wish to pursue a degree, but that doesn't diminish the value of having one either.

[Flying Pig]

The focus of the discussion should be related to why its important to have one to be a CAP officer.  Not life in general.  So far, being a positive roll model for the cadets is all Ive seen mentioned.   So, with that.   I guess  the non-degree having NCOs will be drawing with crayons as they attempt to motivate cadets.

[AirAux]

Not too many volunteers will be able to jump into CAP (COME and PAY) as we know it or run out and pick up a CFI with $100,000.00 of College to pay for.  Think about it, an Academy degree or an ROTC degree are fairly well financed by the military.  On the other hand you will have 45 year old 20 year E-6 NCO's and and 20 year old E-5 NCO's that don't have a clue what the other is doing..  Take a good program of 40 years making (I mean without that shameful lying about sinking subs) that seems to work well and flush it.  Our wing has 2,000 members.  Around 125 have level IV done (Lt.Col).  That is barely over 5%.  Are there to many gray haired Lt.Col.'s?  Yes at Conferences or large gatherings, because the lower 80% are not involved in politics or the upper level management of things and are out on the flight line doing orientation flights or training ES material.  The program is working.  As has been asked and so refusedly not answered, how is any of this going to help CAP.  Please share a picture of this enlightened CAP of the future so we can either jump on board or jump ship...

[lordmonar]

I am sorry, but is anyone else confused as to why an "NCO committe" that was charged with retooling the "NCO corps" is talking about possibly changing "officer grade and requirements"??

Would that not be a job for a "officer and officer PD committe" made up of uh...Officers???

the NCO committee is not charged with making any changes to the officer corps.  But one of the points on the NCO program was to position CAP to be able to make changes to the officer corps if we (CAP) so chooses.

[Ned]

Think about it, an Academy degree or an ROTC degree are fairly well financed by the military. 

One tiny correction to a thoughtful post.

Most military officers are commissioned via ROTC.  And the great majority of those officers did not receive significant financial assistance from the military toward their college expenses.  Yes, something like 10% of ROTC students are on a full military scholarship, but the rest of us received only a small monthly stipend that did not come close to covering tuition, books, or other expenses.

More like an honorarium, actually.  I received $100 a month for the academic year.  I understand they get more now, but the main point is that most military officers paid for the great majority of the their college expenses on their own.

It really does take a village . . .

Ned Lee
Former ROTC Cadet

[TheTravelingAirman]

So, on the topic of being CAP NCOs, how long has it usually taken for the update to one's grade to take effect?

[lordmonar]

So, on the topic of being CAP NCOs, how long has it usually taken for the update to one's grade to take effect?

As soon as NHQ gets it.....within the week.
Where's your Form 2?

[sarmed1]

Somehow I suspect the world was going to come to an end with CAP withering away to a footnote in the annuals of antiquity by disregarding decades of tradition by eliminating NCO's as a viable component of the force , the first time.

It is an organization that can make, break or waiver its own rules at its whim,  they can and most likely will create exceptions to any new rule that will overly restrict the ability to carry out its missions.

Not enough pilots joining because of their lack of degree- easy waiver,"... can not progress beyond captain without x,y,z requirement ..." the Air Force and the Army did it for years with nurses.

I see the same dynamic of NCO's in the military now, especially the reserves.  The newer younger junior NCO's are mentored by the old crust and seasoned ones.....they may have generational gap issues, but when it comes to getting the job done...whoa,  it does.  CAP will be no different

MK

[TheTravelingAirman]

It's been at NHQ. Scanned it in directly last Tuesday or so. Scanned in CAC, CAP ID, and state DL to verify identity when they asked for supporting documentation. Just curious. I don't want to be a bad example and wear the uniform of a SSgt when I'm still a 2Lt. Wondering how much longer I can't wear what I paid for is all.

[lordmonar]

It's been at NHQ. Scanned it in directly last Tuesday or so. Scanned in CAC, CAP ID, and state DL to verify identity when they asked for supporting documentation. Just curious. I don't want to be a bad example and wear the uniform of a SSgt when I'm still a 2Lt. Wondering how much longer I can't wear what I paid for is all.

Sounds good I would not start pinging NHQ until the end of the week....but it should not take long.